PDA

View Full Version : Toro verses Honda


mowranger
10-15-2008, 11:16 PM
Hey guys,
Just wanted to vent my frustration in regards to a issue with 10 out of 10 Toro 22195 21" 2008 mowers I purchased this year. I took pics of the control plates on the side of the engines where the breather box bolts to it. As you can see it is cracking out the plate the same way on every one of them. The way I found out early this year was the breather boxes broke at the neck which allowed dust and grass to go directly into the engines, lets just say the ones still running use 22 oz of oil a day!!

I ran the 22167's with zero problems, they had Honda engines on them, the22195 has a different Honda engine.

I use a Magna Matic blade sharpener and balancer to sharpen and balance my blades and sharpen them at least once a week.

Now the fun part, Toro said it was not their problem that it is Honda's problem! Honda said they do not have any issue with this engine that it is something to do with the way Toro set it up on the mower.

Anybody else have this problem with this mower?
What to do?

thanks
Mel

Grits
10-15-2008, 11:31 PM
Toro need to take care of you. Don't take no for an answer.

saw man
10-16-2008, 01:26 AM
What does Toro have to do with it?

That Honda engine has a 1 year comm. warranty, should be fixed.


Looks like you are putting some weight on that filter box though! I think thats the cause of your problem.

mowranger
10-16-2008, 09:19 AM
What does Toro have to do with it?

That Honda engine has a 1 year comm. warranty, should be fixed.


Looks like you are putting some weight on that filter box though! I think thats the cause of your problem.

Its more then one engine, Honda said it has to be some kind of vibration caused by the blade stiffener.

dishboy
10-16-2008, 11:08 AM
Ask toro what address they want you to list on your small claims suits.

saw man
10-16-2008, 11:57 AM
Ask toro what address they want you to list on your small claims suits.


Again, Toro has nothing to do with Honda warranty!

saw man
10-16-2008, 12:00 PM
Its more then one engine, Honda said it has to be some kind of vibration caused by the blade stiffener.

I have not seen this issue with the old Honda engine. The machine is no different other than a few engine cosmetics. The airfilter housing is redesigned an it could put more pressure at that point (it is attached to that control bracket) when weight is applied.

Maybe I am wrong, I just dont see it being a blade issue. Do you have guys using these as step stool to get to other equipment? (just an idea)

topsites
10-16-2008, 12:33 PM
The Toro warranty specifications state as follows:

What does my warranty cover?
The Toro Company promises to repair any Toro consumer product at no charge if there is a defect in materials or workmanship of the unit.
The warranty period varies from product to product.

So that attitude of "hot potato" won't serve them well.

Toro built it, I don't care whose engine they chose to put on it, so long the
machine is sold as a Toro then the problem of manufacturing defects falls on
Toro and if Toro has a problem with their Honda engines then Toro needs to
take that up with them and not pass it off on the customer.

What's next, Honda claims it's not their problem since someone else made the plate?
Who cares!

And why is it now the customer's job to worry about these companies' internal affairs?
It is Toro's job to take this up with Honda.

Ask toro what address they want you to list on your small claims suits.

That's about the way I'm feeling right now, not that I would expect
the phone hooligan to act any different if I said that to them,
maybe it is time to write a letter.

mowtech
10-16-2008, 12:53 PM
All I can say is that it is traditional for the engine manufacturer to warranty their engines directly. Because of this they generally require a comprehensive application approval to assure that the engine is installed and used properly in the product. Having said that, Honda should stand behind their engine in the application as they should have approved it. Stating that they have not seen this problem elsewhere and therefore that it is a Toro problem is bogus. Toro does need to get after Honda to take care of their customer, but I can tell you that Honda is extremely difficult for an OEM to deal with and that they have a very arrogant attitude as they believe the Honda name is golden. Good luck.

Kennedy Landscaping
10-16-2008, 12:59 PM
I have two Toro push mowers, the newer one is a hunk of junk, the older one, however is a beast! I would like to buy my next 21" a Honda

saw man
10-16-2008, 01:04 PM
Good hell, I wont argue with you guys on it.

All you have to do is take it to the dealer and have the warranty done. Past that you obviously dont know what is going on.

Mickhippy
10-16-2008, 05:36 PM
How bashed in is that filter cover!

dishboy
10-16-2008, 05:44 PM
How bashed in is that filter cover!


Good eyes, you can forget about ant warranty claim on that machine. More mowers are broken in transport than cutting IMO.

mowranger
10-16-2008, 06:59 PM
How bashed in is that filter cover!

I can take more pic of the top of the breather if you would like, but it is not bashed in. But even if that be the case something caused the plates to crack, every one of them in almost the same place and has same crack lines!

mowranger
10-16-2008, 07:06 PM
This is what I got from Toro

September 15, 2008, Thank you for taking the time to contact The Toro Company. We are sorry to learn of the difficulty you have experienced with your mowers, andappreciate you bringing it to our attention. The Toro Company does not manufacture the engine used on your unit, nor do we stock replacement parts for the engine. Therefore, we would suggest contacting Honda regarding availability issues of parts. Their phone numberis 1-770-497-6400. While we apologize for the delay you experienced in repairing your mower, we have no way of influencing the length of time for a repair. Please speak tothe dealership to find out why the repair is taking so long. We value you as a Toro customer. Please know that you have an openinvitation to contact us at any time. Sincerely, Mona A. Customer Care Representative Case Number #########

dixiegirl
10-16-2008, 07:17 PM
I have seen this on 2 comm honda engines and both motors were checked at 3750 rpms which was to fast. Check that and or vibration. Hope that helps.
Heather:waving

mngrassguy
10-16-2008, 07:37 PM
Did you get them from a Toro dealer? What did they say?

dixiegirl
10-16-2008, 07:59 PM
I sold both mowers and his guys thought the engines were not running fast enough so they they sped both engine up without checking rpms and cracked both and he asked about warranty. However i will always give warranty no questions but i already knew what had happend one i had checked both machines. i corrected both mowers at no charge and he was happy. I will always take the time to explain any information to our Landscapers and in return they are happy and making money !!!
HEATHER
CENTRAL POWER EQ.

mjealey
10-16-2008, 09:12 PM
I hav two honda push mowers and love them. One has the gcv160 and the other has the gcv190 on it. These mowers have hundreds of hours on them and just went out to the garage and checked them to see if they are wearing in the same spots as yours. Mine are showing no wear whatsoever.

Here is the bottom line. Earlier in the year I bought a Snapper Pro and it has a Kawasaki engine on it. Couldn't diagnose the problem and Kawasaki sent a whole new motor. Snapper never told me too bad we didn't make the motor you have to call Kawasaki. My dealer called Kawasaki and Snapper did too, and worked in conjuction with each other. Toro and your dealer should do the same thing. Yes, it is a motor made by Honda, but it is Toro that chooses to use them for their powerplnts and it is your dealer that sells them! Shouldn't be that big of a deal. Dealer calls Honda, Honda sends new parts, mower is fixed, and dealer gets reimbursed by Honda for labor and parts. Pretty simple, I think.

mowranger
10-16-2008, 11:04 PM
I hav two honda push mowers and love them. One has the gcv160 and the other has the gcv190 on it. These mowers have hundreds of hours on them and just went out to the garage and checked them to see if they are wearing in the same spots as yours. Mine are showing no wear whatsoever.

Here is the bottom line. Earlier in the year I bought a Snapper Pro and it has a Kawasaki engine on it. Couldn't diagnose the problem and Kawasaki sent a whole new motor. Snapper never told me too bad we didn't make the motor you have to call Kawasaki. My dealer called Kawasaki and Snapper did too, and worked in conjuction with each other. Toro and your dealer should do the same thing. Yes, it is a motor made by Honda, but it is Toro that chooses to use them for their powerplnts and it is your dealer that sells them! Shouldn't be that big of a deal. Dealer calls Honda, Honda sends new parts, mower is fixed, and dealer gets reimbursed by Honda for labor and parts. Pretty simple, I think.

My dealer did call me today and told me that Honda's Rep will be here next week to see this problem.

mowranger
10-16-2008, 11:07 PM
I have seen this on 2 comm honda engines and both motors were checked at 3750 rpms which was to fast. Check that and or vibration. Hope that helps.
Heather:waving

I checked 5 of them with a digital tach on the 5 I got between 3479 to 3634

saw man
10-17-2008, 12:27 AM
Let us know what the Honda service rep has to say!!

brucec32
10-17-2008, 12:50 PM
They do warranty the engine directly, but if toro mounted it on their machine they should ensure Honda stands behind it. Conversely, if Honda sells Toro the engines for a mass produced machine, they're going to have to stand behind their engine as-mounted to continue selling engines. To do otherwise risks damaging the brand reputation. It's not unreasonable for a buyer to expect a machine that comes with a honda warranty card to be warrantied by honda!

If you have any more problems I suggest showing a copy of this thread to both Honda and Toro. My guess is you'll get your mowers fixed promptly.

Keep us posted.

saw man
10-17-2008, 01:08 PM
I doubt this thread will do anything to Honda or Toro.

Honda has been very good with warranty issues and they will replace things even when warranty has expired.

My guess is the reason they are coming to look at it is they want to know if they have a serious problem or if it is your guys stepping on the airfilter box to grab a trimmer or blower. If that is the case then it is not a manufacture defect.

mowranger
10-17-2008, 03:33 PM
I doubt this thread will do anything to Honda or Toro.

Honda has been very good with warranty issues and they will replace things even when warranty has expired.

My guess is the reason they are coming to look at it is they want to know if they have a serious problem or if it is your guys stepping on the airfilter box to grab a trimmer or blower. If that is the case then it is not a manufacture defect.


For kicks and giggles I stepped and stood on the air filter box, you know what it did not break the plate, it bent it over like a horse shoe.

The dealer came by my shop today and said "Honda Rep decided to not come, ship them one of the engines so they can look at it! So we pulled the engine off a mower and he took it. He also said that the Rep told him they are starting to receive complaints from other guys with this engine package. I wonder if this thread has got people looking at the mowers.

We mow on average 550 lawns per week, so the mower logs about 5 to 6 hours per day. Just giving some figures as of the amount of usage these little guys get.

mowranger
12-06-2008, 01:43 AM
Just wanted to let you know what finally happened! Toro stepped up to the plate and bought me 4 new engines! While Honda is, well, can not explain why the plates broke, yet! I do not think its Honda corp, it is there distributor MTA (I believe is the one for this region) that has dragged there feet. Thanks to Toro for there help, Great product and took a minute but great support! Although I have been a fan of Honda forever all the way back to the 90, 110, 185s, 350x, 2504traxx, 250x and a shadow 700 all of which I have owned and enjoyed. And today over 30 Honda powered toro mowers. I will say one thing about Honda I have never had a problem until 2008 and because it affected my mowing operation (my money) I will never if I can help it buy another Honda powered piece of equipment! By the way, they are made in well you guessed it, China!

saw man
12-06-2008, 01:59 AM
Just wanted to let you know what finally happened! Toro stepped up to the plate and bought me 4 new engines! While Honda is, well, can not explain why the plates broke, yet! I do not think its Honda corp, it is there distributor MTA (I believe is the one for this region) that has dragged there feet. Thanks to Toro for there help, Great product and took a minute but great support! Although I have been a fan of Honda forever all the way back to the 90, 110, 185s, 350x, 2504traxx, 250x and a shadow 700 all of which I have owned and enjoyed. And today over 30 Honda powered toro mowers. I will say one thing about Honda I have never had a problem until 2008 and because it affected my mowing operation (my money) I will never if I can help it buy another Honda powered piece of equipment! By the way, they are made in well you guessed it, China!

Honda may have a few pieces made in China but is still a quality unit! And that is VERY few pieces!!!

I have a small store and never see service Reps. from major manufactures except Honda. I had the western Honda service Rep. in my store a month ago taking pictures of comm. customers mowers, giving us advice and letting us know what they were doing.

They do care more than any manufacture I have ever delt with. Sorry you had a bad experience but thats the way it goes sometimes.

jeremyt1998
08-27-2009, 11:55 AM
Have you had any more problems out of the Honda TORO's 22195. Just checking the problems.

lawnjox
08-27-2009, 06:57 PM
Have you had any more problems out of the Honda TORO's 22195. Just checking the problems.

I welded the plates where they cracked, the engines I have I keep an eye on them just to make sure they hold! I have been switching to Kaw engines ever since!

hate2work
08-27-2009, 11:38 PM
These are the GCV 160/190 engines, right?

jeremyt1998
08-28-2009, 12:35 AM
I welded the plates where they cracked, the engines I have I keep an eye on them just to make sure they hold! I have been switching to Kaw engines ever since!

I don't know about the Kaw.. I have 20 Kaw and they seem to go through a lot of cable brakes. I also have 20 Hondas and everyone always wants to use the hondas. All my guys say they are more quite and have more power than the Kaw.. So what is your experience with the Kaw.?

jeremyt1998
04-26-2011, 12:15 AM
anymore on the Toro 22195 with the Honda plate breaking?