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View Full Version : BB AOS 35Hp diesel took delivery, first day


nosparkplugs
10-21-2008, 06:53 PM
After running air cooled ZTR's for over 7 years, the step to LC diesel was long overdue, and is worth the cost.

Picked up the BB AOS 35HP diesel 72" deck, Advance Chute, tires, Optional Carlisle Tru-Power tires 26x12. Purchased the BB from Retrodog, and he is buy far the best dealer i have ever dealt with regardless of ZTR brand, went above & beyond to make sure I was satisfied, supplied extra belts & blades free of charge, without asking for them, something I have never experienced.

I purchased this BB with no "mowing Demo", and took so much heat for supporting the BB with only a "parking lot demo" I have never demo any of the ZTR's I have purchased, and minus the Scag Tiger cub I was totally satisfied. This was another excellent choice for me, and its total BS to have to demo a mower, maybe a underpowered mower & large deck requires a demo, but not this BB AOS diesel.

I did some cutting today; however with it so late in the season, their was not enough growth to even slow down the big Cat; however this grass would slow down my old JD F-680 every time no matter the time of year.

I have no experience with other "suspension mowers"; however the BB diesel's EZ-Ride system, and michigan seat made for the most comfortable ride I have ever experienced. I was able to mow this church field in 1 hr, previously it took 3-4 hours. I was done so fast i went looking for more grass to cut, something i was never able to do in years past on the same account.

Cut Quality, All I can say is MANICURED CUT, at 15mph:clapping::clapping: It looked equal to the Walker MT GHS cut with a 72" deck. I had zero windrows, like I had with the Scag Velocity deck, and even without a true mulch kit baffle the sheer brute force/torque of the cat diesel did the job with the Advance Chute blocker alone. I can only image further improvement in cut quality with the mulch baffle, when i comes from the factory.

Climbing hills simply "amazing" the large pump motors & diesel never struggled, and the optional Tru-Power tires must contribute to the mountain goat like ability to climb straight-up hills i previously used a walk-behind on or the JD front mower; which struggled.

Turning the beast: I did not expect the heavy diesel to be so light footed, and within my 3rd turn their was zero turf tearing, the tires did not leave marks either, and could be used on high end accounts with a experienced operator, and attention to detail. For the size, and menising look it's very easy on the turf, I would assume with turf tires' there would be zero tearing, and you could do those "freestyle" fast turns.


PowerPlant: The Liquid cooled 35hp 70/ftlb 4-cylinder Caterpillar diesel, is silky smooth, quite, without the blades engaged, and wide open throttle you need no ear protection very low noise, it's the best sounding diesel I have heard or run period, makes the 3 cylinder Kubota's sound rough. The Cat does require a 5+ second glow plug pre-warm in the morning before she'll start, cannot just turn it over cold. White faced back Lighted analog Temp & oil pressure gauge's very nice touch. The diesel ran at 200 degree's all day did not rise or drop, no matter the grass I cut, the radiator is massive, and the debris screen is large enough to take some debris accumilation, so you can keep mowing longer. Everything about this Engine, and mower is HEAVY DUTY When The diesel gets into thick grass you just see a "puff" of black smoke, and that's it, no drop in rpm or blade tip speed


Over all impression after first day, need more grass to cut this mower is very, very fast, and powerful the 72" & 35hp Cat diesel work well in every situation I was in today, hills, burms, thick bermuda, dry, ditch's, wet ditch's

Sorry Scag owners are in denial this is a far superior machine, in all respects. I also have an extra 3k in my pocket vs the overpriced, underpowered Scag TT 28hp Cat.

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff141/nosparkplugs71/35hpCat1_1.jpg
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff141/nosparkplugs71/35hpCatJPG.jpg
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff141/nosparkplugs71/Advancechute.jpg
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff141/nosparkplugs71/BBAOS2-1.jpg
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff141/nosparkplugs71/BBAOS1.jpg

dozerdogue
10-21-2008, 07:17 PM
Awesome looking machine. If i were in the market for another machine that machine would probably be it CONGRATS!!!:drinkup:

MONTE
10-21-2008, 07:18 PM
How much was the BB? I only ask because I am comparing diesels and are down to two machines but would take another look at BB if they have improved some things and I could find a dealer!

timber132007
10-21-2008, 07:22 PM
That is an awesome mower! I love the ag tires. I was thinking about getting some for my mowers. Are the tires four ply?

razor1
10-21-2008, 07:33 PM
Sweet Ride!

What's it weigh?

nosparkplugs
10-21-2008, 08:43 PM
that is an awesome mower! I love the ag tires. I was thinking about getting some for my mowers. Are the tires four ply?


8ply tires

Razorblades
10-21-2008, 08:45 PM
Congrats on your new mower. Thats a great looking machine!

dozerdogue
10-21-2008, 08:49 PM
check out this video of the 35 cat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl7O0GuCLZE&eurl=http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=bad%20boy%20mower&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:offici

nosparkplugs
10-21-2008, 08:57 PM
It will also leave a manicured cut, to complement these bushooging video's, it's truly a well built amazing machine

mowerbrad
10-21-2008, 09:24 PM
I don't know much about the BB mowers but I do know that CAT makes some really great and powerful engines.

MONTE
10-21-2008, 09:24 PM
I would like to see a video of a manicured cut with one! The one's I have demoed on nice lawns look like they were mowed with a brush hog. I assume they just did not have the mower set up right!

ericmcj31
10-21-2008, 09:35 PM
not really that impressive video to me--so it cut a bunch of dried weeds-and if you notice-it left more uncut than cut! Good for you and don't wanna rain on your parade-but I'm gonna stick to my Ferris! Good luck, though!

nosparkplugs
10-21-2008, 09:57 PM
I would like to see a video of a manicured cut with one! The one's I have demoed on nice lawns look like they were mowed with a brush hog. I assume they just did not have the mower set up right!


I cannot speak for your BB demo experience; however We use the Walker MT GHS for high end accounts, and this AOS diesel lays down a nice strip, and the cut is very refined; which rivals the Walker cut on a large scale.

IMO the BB AOS diesel that I just purchased does produce a refined manicured cut, as I cut the accounts the pictures will be posted to finally end this debate.

nosparkplugs
10-21-2008, 10:01 PM
not really that impressive video to me--so it cut a bunch of dried weeds-and if you notice-it left more uncut than cut! Good for you and don't wanna rain on your parade-but I'm gonna stick to my Ferris! Good luck, though!

Ferris makes some nice machines, Don't want to get started doing BB video documentation:dizzy:, my wife already complains about the time I spend on here, that video editing & uploading would piss here off and get me:hammerhead: looks like Work to mee:laugh:

puppypaws
10-21-2008, 10:12 PM
That new paint is pretty, after you run a while come back with some fuel usage numbers. I think you will find the fuel gage to be very inaccurate. I ran the 28 Cat 6 hrs. and the fuel gage was on empty, I hope it was not burning 3 gallons an hr.

retrodog
10-21-2008, 11:27 PM
not really that impressive video to me--so it cut a bunch of dried weeds-and if you notice-it left more uncut than cut! Good for you and don't wanna rain on your parade-but I'm gonna stick to my Ferris! Good luck, though!

I saw what the Ferris was going for....lol. $18000? Thats just crazy. I had a commercial guy buy the 35hp Cat 60" BB, and a 30hp Kohler Command Pup BB, both brand new machines.... $18590 for both!!!!! You could have had two commercial mowers for that price, and one being more productive and just as comfortable with the same engine.....kinda like buy one get one free.....lol. You guys will start to notice the value when you start looking a little closer at the big picture. Congrats on your new mower man, looking good sportin the ACS....lol

ALC-GregH
10-22-2008, 07:30 AM
I'll stick with my Scag, thank you very much. :)

TLS
10-22-2008, 07:51 AM
Looks nice.

With the weight of that mower, those tires are going to rip some grass. Hope your OK with that!

I see a few things that would bother me, but I guess you will overlook some small things for the grand scheme of things.

Have Fun!

puppypaws
10-22-2008, 08:35 AM
Looks nice.

With the weight of that mower, those tires are going to rip some grass. Hope your OK with that!

I see a few things that would bother me, but I guess you will overlook some small things for the grand scheme of things.

Have Fun!

TLS, gives your thoughts on what bothers you?

Rons Rightway Lawncare
10-22-2008, 08:54 AM
Nosparkplugs.... I have to speak my mind, and honestly I think (1) you are the type of person that has balked at the higher price of Scags and have twisted things in your head to make yourself believe that Scags are worthless junk, when that is far from the truth. (2) you would be head over heals in love if you could have Diesel powered everythings.... trimmers, blowers, chainsaws, motorcycles, everything! Reading your posts over the years you come off as simply a diesel engine junkie, so to me it is no surprise you feel the way you do about this mower verses ANYTHING else powered with a gasoline engine.

I have no doubt the mower is a good mower. I still stand by my observations of the Badboy that comes from several hours of use and at least one hour just looking at how it was put together so I could understand how durable the basics of the machine are.... and I found that it was a solid machine.

I do doubt the claims you are making about the cut, show me a nice thick green lawn you mowed at 15 mph with the chute closed. I would expect it to look like crap. I would not expect any brand mower to give a nice cut at 15 mph in the kind of turf I typically cut.

I think the tires are interesting. I believe you would be tearing turf like crazy with that mower with turf tires. Those chevron tires may not be as bad.... I have thought about trying a set on my mowers over the years just to see if they are better.

nosparkplugs
10-22-2008, 08:59 AM
Looks nice.

With the weight of that mower, those tires are going to rip some grass. Hope your OK with that!

I see a few things that would bother me, but I guess you will overlook some small things for the grand scheme of things.

Have Fun!


That is not the case, the mower was very light footed considering the weight. Yes it would be real easy to just tear up a yard; however I had absolutley zero trouble making turns with no turf tear.

Their is no perfect ZTR on the market it helps to own at least two or three different types to cover all applications in the "grand scheme" of things.

TLS
10-22-2008, 09:04 AM
TLS, gives your thoughts on what bothers you?

The first thing I noticed is the amount of mower sticking out behind the rear wheels.

The other thing I noticed is the lack of a foot lift for the deck. How do you feather a deck over something or up against a raised berm, etc?

But the biggest thing that caught my attention is the placement of the air cleaner! :hammerhead: Couple that with the amount of mower sticking out the back, and I'd have that aircleaner ripped off by a tree branch (or anything) in an hour.

greenred
10-22-2008, 09:22 AM
That is one Hoss of a mower.

heather lawn sp
10-22-2008, 09:36 AM
That is not the case, the mower was very light footed considering the weight. Yes it would be real easy to just tear up a yard; however I had absolutley zero trouble making turns with no turf tear.

Their is no perfect ZTR on the market it helps to own at least two or three different types to cover all applications in the "grand scheme" of things.

We've just put chevron tires on our smaller JD 997. Operator says they tear up more than the turf tires did. Keep us up to date

puppypaws
10-22-2008, 10:35 AM
The first thing I noticed is the amount of mower sticking out behind the rear wheels.

The other thing I noticed is the lack of a foot lift for the deck. How do you feather a deck over something or up against a raised berm, etc?

But the biggest thing that caught my attention is the placement of the air cleaner! :hammerhead: Couple that with the amount of mower sticking out the back, and I'd have that aircleaner ripped off by a tree branch (or anything) in an hour.

I noticed exactly what you are speaking of. The rear of the mower sticking out is something we are not use to seeing but from the places I used it, I could never see this causing a problem. The filter is mounted on a steel plate which means it would take one heck of a lick to cause a problem. Not that it is impossible, because anything can happen. I have never personally backed into anything with my Super Z and would not see that causing a problem with the BB AOS.

I do think this weight sitting that far back will have a tendency to make the front end lighter even with the added weight. One of the boys running it at my farm seemed to notice this more than I did. I really noticed the front wheels shimmying very badly on hard surfaces and some of this could be due to the front end being lighter.

A foot lift for the deck is a must in my opinion and BB can have the best of both worlds but for some reason it is not offered on the diesel AOS model. I think this is due to the added weight on the front to offset the heavy diesel engine being in the way. The gasoline powered AOS offers the foot assist. You and I are both use to this feature and could not do without it, I use mine constantly.

We both prefer the lower profile of the Super Z along with the much better handling due to smoother hydraulics. The Super Z is more nibble and controls much easier than the BB maneuvering around any type obstacles. The Super Z will actually pick up productivity over the BB in an obstacle laden cutting area, due to the quicker response and maneuverability.

The Super Z will cut just as much grass in an open area (zero obstacles) under normal cutting conditions, where the 35 Cat on the AOS really makes a difference in very heavy cutting. When I say heavy cutting, I mean in slightly overgrown clean grass that is wet or in extremely large grass that is wet or dry.

The BB AOS with the 35 hp Cat will eat the Super Z alive in these conditions, I would say the AOS would be 30% to 50% more productive in these situations. The heavier AOS rides extremely well, much better than the Lightning model with the same 4 wheel torsion rubber suspension, this is due to the AOS weighing more.

I think the cut (especially the lower height I cut) is as good as any in my cutting situation. I never saw anything left uncut even at a cutting speed of 15 mph. The BB AOS is a very good machine and definitely has a place in the market place. I made this same statement about the Lightning model last year. They are very well built mowers, that ride and cut well in my situation with productivity equal to my Super Z in open areas and better in heavier cutting.

The price surpasses anything on the market, you get more mower for the money than any other manufacture offers with their top of the line machines.

I would highly recommend the Cat 35 (not 28) on the AOS model BB to anyone with the use of a well built highly productive mower that rides extremely well. Everyone has different needs, this is what makes the world go around.

I am more impressed with BB offering the 35 hp Cat diesel at their price than any mower priced by a manufacture in production today.

chesterlawn
10-22-2008, 05:30 PM
Just curious, when do you need a 35 hp diesel engine on a mower when you are cutting established lawns. I could see if your cutting fields, but , 35, that seems to be over kill to me. I have a 27 kaw. and I can't think of a time when I needed more power.

TLS
10-22-2008, 05:35 PM
Just curious, when do you need a 35 hp diesel engine on a mower when you are cutting established lawns. I could see if your cutting fields, but , 35, that seems to be over kill to me. I have a 27 kaw. and I can't think of a time when I needed more power.

Put 21cc pumps on that 27 Kawi and see if you still think the same way!

chesterlawn
10-22-2008, 05:44 PM
The mower runs fine the way it is, why would I change pumps?

TLS
10-22-2008, 05:52 PM
No, thats not what I'm saying.

But if you want to go 15mph (and don't say your fine going 10mph) you need a big hydro system, and to power that hydro system takes power away from the rest of the machine.

I've mowed grass with a 20hp 60" ZTR and it was just fine. Why is it that my 28hp EFI Kohler is NOT fine with the same size deck? Only difference....bigger hydros!


I'm not condoning this 35hp Diesel behemoth, but saying a 27hp Kawi is enough power is stretching it a bit.

I've owned a 27hp Kawi, it was OK on my LC Lazer (60"), but power and torque wise my 28hp EFI Kohler trumps it. So, if someone were to put a 27hp LC Kawi in my Super-Z, I would be very unhappy and even more underpowered!

chesterlawn
10-22-2008, 06:09 PM
Yes I am 100 % fine with 10 mph. Just a coincidence, I ran into a friend of mine today, and he had his hustler with him that he bought new this year. I gave it a try, and when you push the sticks forward , it seemed very slow to respond. And over all, the extra speed didn't't seem like it would be that use full. I'm sure some lawns, yes, but most no. If you are cutting large, bump free lawns, and a quality cut doesn't matter,then 15 mph would be great.

DUSTYCEDAR
10-22-2008, 06:14 PM
wow that thing is huge i could plow snow with it
best of luck with it will it pop wheelies?

chesterlawn
10-22-2008, 06:18 PM
Funny thing too, he had three mowers on his trailer, two lazers and a hustler. What mowers did his he and helper use? The two lazers.

joslawn33
10-22-2008, 07:41 PM
Thats alot of weight on the back of that machine to be climbing a very steep hill.

TLS
10-22-2008, 07:44 PM
Thats alot of weight on the back of that machine to be climbing a very steep hill.

With the amount of rear overhang, you'd never have to worry about tipping over backwards on a steep incline! :rolleyes:

nosparkplugs
10-22-2008, 08:25 PM
Nosparkplugs.... I have to speak my mind, and honestly I think (1) you are the type of person that has balked at the higher price of Scags and have twisted things in your head to make yourself believe that Scags are worthless junk, when that is far from the truth. (2) you would be head over heals in love if you could have Diesel powered everythings.... trimmers, blowers, chainsaws, motorcycles, everything! Reading your posts over the years you come off as simply a diesel engine junkie, so to me it is no surprise you feel the way you do about this mower verses ANYTHING else powered with a gasoline engine.

I have no doubt the mower is a good mower. I still stand by my observations of the Badboy that comes from several hours of use and at least one hour just looking at how it was put together so I could understand how durable the basics of the machine are.... and I found that it was a solid machine.

I do doubt the claims you are making about the cut, show me a nice thick green lawn you mowed at 15 mph with the chute closed. I would expect it to look like crap. I would not expect any brand mower to give a nice cut at 15 mph in the kind of turf I typically cut.

I think the tires are interesting. I believe you would be tearing turf like crazy with that mower with turf tires. Those chevron tires may not be as bad.... I have thought about trying a set on my mowers over the years just to see if they are better.

I have had a set on my F-680 for 5 years their better on the turf Really:dizzy: it's an oxymoron I guess. The Walker sells a similar tire for their mowers, Grasshopper, Dixie Chopper, so this is nothing extreme with my purchasing, and having success with these tires, Their is a fine line i'm walking with these tires, and it's all or nothing on the turf tearing or lack off:laugh:

First I did not always have the money to run diesel trucks or equipment, and diesel engines are not for eveyone, don't knock them either, gasoline power will always be for the masses. I started out with one Dodge 2500 V8 gasburner, and spend a small fortune over the years, on gasoline trucks, and fuel, growing my business, the switch to diesel power has saved me thousands in fuel cost alone, and have been converting over to diesel ever since.
I have owned Scags in the past, their great mowers,Purchased 2 Scag Tiger Cubs 20hp Kohler 48" velocity decks, and ran those until I sick of the lack of power, and outgrew them. It's ironic, I have run mainly gasoline ZTR's for 8 years, and I have a gasoline powered 20hp V-twin Kohler John Deere F-680 60" 7-Iron for 8 years on the second engine which blew up at 650hrs. I vowed I would never purchase another gasoline powered large frame ZTR if possible. I was funded for over $15,000 on this diesel purchase, so truly money was not the issue. I did not Balk on a Scag purchase found something better for less, just opened my eyes. I have no beef with the local dealer, I choose to not purchase major/high dollar equipment from them.
let me make it clearer, the Scags are not a POS, I ran two Scags, and there great mowers the velocity decks are nothing special like everyone who owns one would want you to believe they do clogg up in certain conditions, and leave clumps, thats why I will always have Walkers too, maybe your BB demo was not set up correctly, who knows, you don't own a BB, and have no future interest in purchasing one, so you viewpoint does nothing to be fair in this matter. What about the new guys who think they must have that expensive Scag to survive or be "cool", and can save thousands or get more for the same amount depending on the models. I just dropped some serious K on this machine if their was any issue's, I would be taking them to this public forum, since I did purchase it from Retrodog. You woud be like "see I told you", but since that is not the case your now looking to discredit BB, and myself thats fine, I'm a big boy I can take the heat bring it on.



Sorry I totally disagree on the BB cut quality I own one now, and like now your still finding avenues to continue to argue, get over it their is possibly a high quality ZTR that lays down a quality cut for thousands of dollars less than your Scag. If I had or have a problem with this BB I will post it. Why is it so hard to accept that my experience is opposite of yours with BB. I would think you have the twisted mind in believing that one mower company totally dominates the green industry, times are changing:laugh:. The BB is not the only ZTR I have owned over the years, nor do I plan on replacing my Walker with a lightning or Pup, Walker has its place in my business too.

nosparkplugs
10-22-2008, 08:43 PM
OK, I am totally happy with just the electric deck lift, it's actually faster than the Walker, manual pin deck height adjusters. Or the JD F-680 deck height adjuster. Their is a little time lag from when you left off the switch, and when the motor stops, takes a little practice to get use to, but it works great did not slow me down, overall I have increased production with this AOS Diesel

The front mowers I have do not have a quick lift foot pedal anyway, the only other ZTR to have a FA that I owned was the Scag tiger cub, do not remember that being a life saver at anytime. Their are current model front mowers with no foot assist options. Lets be honest when your going 10-15mph, a manual foot assit pedal dose nothing to increase your ability to stop you from hitting something, you would have a better chance of stopping or going around the object than trying to raise the deck quickly with your foot, sorry my reflex's did not tend to cause my feet to move before my eyes or hands.

Today we did section 8 housing, and their were curbs, sidewalks, and obstacles that I had to raise the deck to get over, and I just slowed down, and lifted my "heavy thumb" to raise the deck, did not burn any calories doing that:laugh:. For me that was a nice experience, not having to move my leg like I had to one the Scag, or get off the Walkers or F-680 to adjust the deck height. Yes your not going to break any deck lifting speed records with BB's electric lift, but its highly functional, and very handy in all situations so far. Not having to move your body is more productive or equal to a manual foot assist.

Razorblades
10-22-2008, 08:51 PM
I have had a set on my F-680 for 5 years their better on the turf Really:dizzy: it's an oxymoron I guess. The Walker sells a similar tire for their mowers, Grasshopper, Dixie Chopper, so this is nothing extreme with my purchasing, and having success with these tires, Their is a fine line i'm walking with these tires, and it's all or nothing on the turf tearing or lack off:laugh:

First I did not always have the money to run diesel trucks or equipment, and diesel engines are not for eveyone, don't knock them either, gasoline power will always be for the masses. I started out with one Dodge 2500 V8 gasburner, and spend a small fortune over the years, on gasoline trucks, and fuel, growing my business, the switch to diesel power has saved me thousands in fuel cost alone, and have been converting over to diesel ever since.
I have owned Scags in the past, their great mowers,Purchased 2 Scag Tiger Cubs 20hp Kohler 48" velocity decks, and ran those until I sick of the lack of power, and outgrew them. It's ironic, I have run mainly gasoline ZTR's for 8 years, and I have a gasoline powered 20hp V-twin Kohler John Deere F-680 60" 7-Iron for 8 years on the second engine which blew up at 650hrs. I vowed I would never purchase another gasoline powered large frame ZTR if possible. I was funded for over $15,000 on this diesel purchase, so truly money was not the issue. I did not Balk on a Scag purchase found something better for less, just opened my eyes. I have no beef with the local dealer, I choose to not purchase major/high dollar equipment from them.
let me make it clearer, the Scags are not a POS, I ran two Scags, and there great mowers the velocity decks are nothing special like everyone who owns one would want you to believe they do clogg up in certain conditions, and leave clumps, thats why I will always have Walkers too, maybe your BB demo was not set up correctly, who knows, you don't own a BB, and have no future interest in purchasing one, so you viewpoint does nothing to be fair in this matter. What about the new guys who think they must have that expensive Scag to survive or be "cool", and can save thousands or get more for the same amount depending on the models. I just dropped some serious K on this machine if their was any issue's, I would be taking them to this public forum, since I did purchase it from Retrodog. You woud be like "see I told you", but since that is not the case your now looking to discredit BB, and myself thats fine, I'm a big boy I can take the heat bring it on.



Sorry I totally disagree on the BB cut quality I own one now, and like now your still finding avenues to continue to argue, get over it their is possibly a high quality ZTR that lays down a quality cut for thousands of dollars less than your Scag. If I had or have a problem with this BB I will post it. Why is it so hard to accept that my experience is opposite of yours with BB. I would think you have the twisted mind in believing that one mower company totally dominates the green industry, times are changing:laugh:. The BB is not the only ZTR I have owned over the years, nor do I plan on replacing my Walker with a lightning or Pup, Walker has its place in my business too.

Careful Nosparkplugs, You might "rile" up the established hierarchy making statements like that:laugh: Seriously though, If one company has dominated the market the last 5 yrs or so, it hasn't been by Scag. That title would have to go to Exmark, based on percentage of sales, and I don't own an Exmark either. Like you said, the times are changing and Bad Boy is picking up market share from some of the other brands. I am very satisfied with my Lastec mower for some they are a better option, but not for alot of people. The Bad boy AOS model and a few other brands would be on my short list if Iwere to go back to a one piece, non articulating deck. Don't mean to change the subject of this thread, just wanted the hierarchy to know that it's fine, in my case, to own and use something that's not as popular or as well known the "simply the best" brand. I have nothing at all against Scag mowers as they are very well built, it seems, it is the arrogance of a few of the hierarchy that every now and then sours on me a little. Like you said, Scag's, nor ANY other brand "Floats on clouds or farts money". (that was a pretty funny statement) Anyway, very nice mower and report back with some Fuel useage numbers if you get a chance to check them anytime soon.

MJB
10-22-2008, 08:59 PM
OK, I am totally happy with just the electric deck lift, it's actually faster than the Walker, manual pin deck height adjusters. Or the JD F-680 deck height adjuster. Their is a little time lag from when you left off the switch, and when the motor stops, takes a little practice to get use to, but it works great did not slow me down, overall I have increased production with this AOS Diesel

The front mowers I have do not have a quick lift foot pedal anyway, the only other ZTR to have a FA that I owned was the Scag tiger cub, do not remember that being a life saver at anytime. Their are current model front mowers with no foot assist options. Lets be honest when your going 10-15mph, a manual foot assit pedal dose nothing to increase your ability to stop you from hitting something, you would have a better chance of stopping or going around the object than trying to raise the deck quickly with your foot, sorry my reflex's did not tend to cause my feet to move before my eyes or hands.

Today we did section 8 housing, and their were curbs, sidewalks, and obstacles that I had to raise the deck to get over, and I just slowed down, and lifted my "heavy thumb" to raise the deck, did not burn any calories doing that:laugh:. For me that was a nice experience, not having to move my leg like I had to one the Scag, or get off the Walkers or F-680 to adjust the deck height. Yes your not going to break any deck lifting speed records with BB's electric lift, but its highly functional, and very handy in all situations so far. Not having to move your body is more productive or equal to a manual foot assist.

Great Mower choice !!!! I wish they had dealers in Wa State. Look forward to seeing more pictures of the cut quality. I wanted one and would of bought one if I could of seen one up close and drove around the parking lot like you did. Some mowers you don't need to demo if you do your homework. I never demoed my first Walker just ordered it on sight, and loved it , but now I don't pick up the grass so I moved on to the bigger mowers. Keep us posted on your likes and dislikes if any :waving:.

Lehighlawnpros
10-22-2008, 09:35 PM
Congratulations, that's a sweet looking machine!
The Cat diesel is definately a thing of beauty.
Plenty of room in there for a bypass filter system :-)

I agree, we have the "chevron" low-pressure tires
on some of our Grasshoppers and once you get used to them I think they are actually better for the turf.
They distribute the weight over a larger area helping to eliminate "ruts", and provide a better ride as well.
They're also very tough, nearly flat-proof.

As the machine breaks in please update us on gallons
per hour, thanks.

Bob
Lehighlawnpros

puppypaws
10-22-2008, 09:58 PM
With the amount of rear overhang, you'd never have to worry about tipping over backwards on a steep incline! :rolleyes:

One thing I did experience with the longer overhang on the AOS; we are not familiar with the Super Z is banks I go straight up with the Hustler and dolly wheels the BB AOS model will plow up a place to start a garden. You will become familiar with what you can do, and what you can't with seat time, it is not really a problem, just something different than we are use to.

The Lightning model will actually clear and go up a steeper bank than the Super Z because it is higher in the rear end but does not stick out as far as the longer AOS. Everything has pluses and minuses!

kc2006
10-22-2008, 10:11 PM
Thats a beefy looking mower, i'd love to have the motor.

I don't want to start shat, but i've heard nothing but bad about those mowers around here. I even used one for a few mins and didn't like it. Rattles like a mofo, i couldn't imagine being on one all day, and as said before, cut was bad, really bad. heck the one place here is only selling them when they mark them down so far that they aren't making money.

In my opinion, theres a reason they're thousands less than the known quality mowers.

Maybe they're different in southern grass though, good luck with it.

puppypaws
10-22-2008, 10:46 PM
Thats a beefy looking mower, i'd love to have the motor.

I don't want to start shat, but i've heard nothing but bad about those mowers around here. I even used one for a few mins and didn't like it. Rattles like a mofo, i couldn't imagine being on one all day, and as said before, cut was bad, really bad. heck the one place here is only selling them when they mark them down so far that they aren't making money.

In my opinion, theres a reason they're thousands less than the known quality mowers.

Maybe they're different in southern grass though, good luck with it.

Which model mower and engine was rattling? The 28 Cat I ran had a great deal of vibration noise and there is a squeak somewhere in the front end that was the exact sound I heard on the Lightning model I ran also.

retrodog
10-22-2008, 10:50 PM
Thats a beefy looking mower, i'd love to have the motor.

I don't want to start shat, but i've heard nothing but bad about those mowers around here. I even used one for a few mins and didn't like it. Rattles like a mofo, i couldn't imagine being on one all day, and as said before, cut was bad, really bad. heck the one place here is only selling them when they mark them down so far that they aren't making money.

In my opinion, theres a reason they're thousands less than the known quality mowers.

Maybe they're different in southern grass though, good luck with it.

Big reason they are cheaper than everyone else is that the company's whole basis on producing their own machine was that the owners were fed up with the pricing of existing mowers, the difficulty level on maintenance and working on the machines, and the high costs of owning them. While everyone else is having 8% to 15% price increases, BB is holding out as long as they can even at their remarkable price points already. Oh, by the way just found out what we are having today.....its a boy....woo hoo!! The Wright rep opened my eyes the other day.....what other brand of mower offers a 31hp Kawasaki for under $10000 on any platform? I can't think of one, but Bad boy offers it on a $7295 Pup series mower. 27hp Lc kawasaki on 16cc pumps with 18 gallon tanks $8795?.....thats just crazy.

4.3mudder
10-23-2008, 12:32 AM
There someone in the Dallas Fortworth area who has one for sale, he wants 11 grand for it, they are expenisve!

tacoma200
10-23-2008, 02:43 AM
I believe by looking at the pics (and I've had to look several times because I was in denial) that this is the worst engineered machine I have ever seen. If I offend some of you so be it, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at this and think "what were they smoking" or " what the were they thinking". This is an engineering nightmare. Well I had a good laugh anyway. I would seriously be embarrassed to be seen on this model. I think I'm saying what many are thinking. What a joke!

What is the meaning of the phrase "the 800 lb. gorilla in the room"?
It means to ignore a problem when everyone knows it's there, but pretends everything is OK.

The Emperor's New Clothes or an elephant in the room meaning: is an English idiom for an obvious truth that is being ignored or goes unaddressed.

I'm speaking of this paticular model only.

greenred
10-23-2008, 03:27 AM
I believe by looking at the pics (and I've had to look several times because I was in denial) that this is the worst engineered machine I have ever seen. If I offend some of you so be it, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at this and think "what were they smoking" or " what the were they thinking". This is an engineering nightmare. Well I had a good laugh anyway. I would seriously be embarrassed to be seen on this model. I think I'm saying what many are thinking. What a joke!

What is the meaning of the phrase "the 800 lb. gorilla in the room"?
It means to ignore a problem when everyone knows it's there, but pretends everything is OK.

The Emperor's New Clothes or an elephant in the room meaning: is an English idiom for an obvious truth that is being ignored or goes unaddressed.

I'm speaking of this paticular model only.

Out of curiosity can you point out some particular flaws that catch your eye?

Turf Dawg
10-23-2008, 07:58 AM
Big reason they are cheaper than everyone else is that the company's whole basis on producing their own machine was that the owners were fed up with the pricing of existing mowers, the difficulty level on maintenance and working on the machines, and the high costs of owning them. While everyone else is having 8% to 15% price increases, BB is holding out as long as they can even at their remarkable price points already. Oh, by the way just found out what we are having today.....its a boy....woo hoo!! The Wright rep opened my eyes the other day.....what other brand of mower offers a 31hp Kawasaki for under $10000 on any platform? I can't think of one, but Bad boy offers it on a $7295 Pup series mower. 27hp Lc kawasaki on 16cc pumps with 18 gallon tanks $8795?.....thats just crazy.

I bought a Hustler super z 31/66 for well under 10,000. However after looking at the Bad Boy I have a feeling they are going to become alot more popular in years to come. BTW congrats on having another son.:drinkup:

nosparkplugs
10-23-2008, 08:43 AM
I believe by looking at the pics (and I've had to look several times because I was in denial) that this is the worst engineered machine I have ever seen. If I offend some of you so be it, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at this and think "what were they smoking" or " what the were they thinking". This is an engineering nightmare. Well I had a good laugh anyway. I would seriously be embarrassed to be seen on this model. I think I'm saying what many are thinking. What a joke!

What is the meaning of the phrase "the 800 lb. gorilla in the room"?
It means to ignore a problem when everyone knows it's there, but pretends everything is OK.

The Emperor's New Clothes or an elephant in the room meaning: is an English idiom for an obvious truth that is being ignored or goes unaddressed.

I'm speaking of this paticular model only.

Ouch, :cry:Thats a suprising response from some who since I have joined Lawnsite has been open minded about equipment to engine's to synthetic oil theory etc.

Please point out some of the design flaws; because I have not had any problems yet.

Heres one analogy I had come to conclude myself, I look at Scag, Exmark, Hustler as the "established" status quot, and Bad Boy is Toyota(with the exception their a prue breed USA company:usflag::usflag:). The big three were for warned of a small rising company, and they did not take the warning, and have been losing market share's since. What has taken the establishment 10's of years to accomplish Bad Boy is doing at a much more rapid pace. I spent 12 months researching these mowers, and went to each of the dealers MULTIPLE times, and tried to get Scag to come off their high horse TT cat diesel price's; honestly they have lost sight of long term customer service, and did not look at my future business, one lost mower equals to a alot of future business form me. Your theory, and attitude is not abnormal, but troubling, simply because their are economic factors that will always play into the production cost of even the most dominate machines. Well established companies do fail,(look at our current economy):laugh: from simply having to much "baggage" or extra cost in their product I truly feel Scag is slowly falling behind, and has not tried to cut production costs over the years or modernized their manufacturing process; which is going to cause them to have to continuly increase their cost.

Rons Rightway Lawncare
10-23-2008, 08:43 AM
First I did not always have the money to run diesel trucks or equipment, and diesel engines are not for eveyone, don't knock them either, gasoline power will always be for the masses. I started out with one Dodge 2500 V8 gasburner, and spend a small fortune over the years, on gasoline trucks, and fuel, growing my business, the switch to diesel power has saved me thousands in fuel cost alone, and have been converting over to diesel ever since.
I have owned Scags in the past, their great mowers,Purchased 2 Scag Tiger Cubs 20hp Kohler 48" velocity decks, and ran those until I sick of the lack of power, and outgrew them. It's ironic, I have run mainly gasoline ZTR's for 8 years, and I have a gasoline powered 20hp V-twin Kohler John Deere F-680 60" 7-Iron for 8 years on the second engine which blew up at 650hrs. I vowed I would never purchase another gasoline powered large frame ZTR if possible. I was funded for over $15,000 on this diesel purchase, so truly money was not the issue. I did not Balk on a Scag purchase found something better for less, just opened my eyes. I have no beef with the local dealer, I choose to not purchase major/high dollar equipment from them.
let me make it clearer, the Scags are not a POS, I ran two Scags, and there great mowers the velocity decks are nothing special like everyone who owns one would want you to believe they do clogg up in certain conditions, and leave clumps, thats why I will always have Walkers too, maybe your BB demo was not set up correctly, who knows, you don't own a BB, and have no future interest in purchasing one, so you viewpoint does nothing to be fair in this matter. What about the new guys who think they must have that expensive Scag to survive or be "cool", and can save thousands or get more for the same amount depending on the models. I just dropped some serious K on this machine if their was any issue's, I would be taking them to this public forum, since I did purchase it from Retrodog. You woud be like "see I told you", but since that is not the case your now looking to discredit BB, and myself thats fine, I'm a big boy I can take the heat bring it on.



Sorry I totally disagree on the BB cut quality I own one now, and like now your still finding avenues to continue to argue, get over it their is possibly a high quality ZTR that lays down a quality cut for thousands of dollars less than your Scag. If I had or have a problem with this BB I will post it. Why is it so hard to accept that my experience is opposite of yours with BB. I would think you have the twisted mind in believing that one mower company totally dominates the green industry, times are changing:laugh:. The BB is not the only ZTR I have owned over the years, nor do I plan on replacing my Walker with a lightning or Pup, Walker has its place in my business too.


Wow, very defensive and sensitive as well... my ole my:dizzy:

First off, I have no issue with Diesel engines. If I wanted a 2500 or larger truck I would absolutely have a diesel over a gasser. If for any reason, just to get the extra pulling power. Me and you have had differing opinions on trucks in the past because I am not a diesel junkie and I feel for my own needs ( and the needs of most guys who mainly cut grass and do minor landscaping ) a 1/2 ton truck is more than up to the task and as we all know you can't even get a diesel in a 1/2 ton truck. My truck has broken in now with a little over 11,000 miles on it now and pulling my loaded 7x16 enclosed trailer around I am averaging in the 11.5-12 mpg range, and I have no issue as far as power or torque goes, I have no need for a diesel at all


Gasoline engines on lawnmowers.... I have never had one give me any kind of major problems. Worse things I have had to deal with is a blown headgasket on a old 18 horse Vanguard over 10 years ago, a blown ignition box on a 20 hp Kolher over 8 years ago, and a leaky lower main crankshaft oil seal on two different Kawasaki 14 hp engines. I have sold most of my old mowers to a friend who still uses them to this day, with all my old Bobcat ZTR's still in use today with well over 5000-6000 running hours on them. Most of them went over 4000 hours on the original engine. Sure the mowers look like hell now and they nickel and dime him with a pump that fails today and then a month later a spindle that fails, etc.... But he says they still work and still make him money, so he keeps sending his Mexican workers out on them everyday.

No doubt about it, the diesel engine should be more reliable. But in my opinion the gasoline engines are pretty dam reliable these days as well.


As for your scag ownership.... Why would you buy a 48 inch ZTR? The only people around here that buy those are newbies and homeowners. I have personally never used a 48 inch wide anything that left a good cut scag or otherwise. At any rate, what deck did your scags have? The advantage deck did not do as well as the early decks or the velocity decks out now. As like I said in other post, I can not say the scag would be good or bad if used to mulch grass. I don't think their deck was ever designed to be a good mulching deck but instead to be good with side discharge, which is how 99 percent of the people around here use a mower. You say underpowered, I personally can't understand that statement. Underpowered to mulch tall grass.... sure very possible. Underpowered to mow tall wet grass with side discharge, sure that is possible too. But underpowered as a general rule of thumb, sorry I have trouble believing that.


I have yet to use a mower that I felt was underpowered, everything from 60 inch hydro walkbehinds with 18 horse Vanguards, to the 17 horse 42 inch ZTR I use for gated backyards, to the Tigercub I currently use with a 61 inch deck and a 23 horse Vanguard. The only mower I used that felt like it might have been slightly underpowered was a Husquvarna ZTR I demoed 2 years ago that was their large frame rider with a 27 horse Kohler and it would bog going up hills, mowing would not bog it down, just going up hills or sudden demands on the hydro system. Maybe this is due to having oversize pumps over the stuff I was used to using.....

davidcalhoun
10-23-2008, 08:55 AM
Where is the nightmare? It's early and I don't have my engineer glasses on yet.

I admit that the rear overhang seems too much visually, but what I do not know is the rear to front weight weight ratio. With the seat (and operator) and larger deck all offsetting this rear overhang, they might be close to proper rear to front weight ratio.

The airfilter looks as though it sticks out in the pics but I think that it is recessed enough to protect it. I would rather have it here than higher on top where more stuff can hit it

As for the rearend overhang banging into stuff on turns, that will take some short retraining. Kind of like how a frontmount turns when next to walls/objects.

It does looks like BadBoy did a nice job trying to make everything accessible.

Not sure of how the rubber mat will hold up.

Could things look more refined? Yes. But help me see the nightmare

Rons Rightway Lawncare
10-23-2008, 09:04 AM
And I was one of those guy who thought Scags were just hype and I made up every reason in the world why I shouldn't buy one, even thought you would see more Scags running around on other lco's trailers than any other brand. It took me almost 10 years in the business before finally buying one, and only then cause the dealer marked it down to the point where it was the same price as all the other ZTR's on my consideration list. I have been satisified and glad ever since.

Are Scags perfect? Absolutely not. Sure in wet conditions the deck can get build up under it and throw out a clump here and there.... The mowers generally ride very stiff..... etc....

with use use can find things they could have done differently and better with any mower. But with the Scags, I have had less problems overall than any other brand mower I have owned. And the cut is the best of any mower I have used.

Do I believe that scag is the very best and or that anyone not buying a scag is a fool.... no of course not. Most mowers these days are all decent units and all have some things they may be better than others at. The Badboy has some very neat things about it and it is priced well, no doubt about it, the badboy is a good mower and would be a good pick.

You do not have to have a Scag on your trailer to be cool! :)


As far as cut, I know I used the lightening on many different yards, everything from pure thick fescue to crabgrass infested fescue to bermuda, and the mower cut decent, and this is cutting at what I consider normal speed - probably somewhere around 7-8 mph max - So no I do not say the badboy has a bad or terrible cut. But the cut was not as clean as the cut my Scag leaves. The difference was not huge and most people will be satisified with the badboys cut. The Badboy did leave strips but they were very faint compared to the scag, neither of the two had a stripping kit or roller on them, so the scags deeper stripes must be created by the airflow under the deck......

I still do not believe ANY mower out there will give a good cut at 15 mph, period. That is just simply too fast. I know there are mowers that will go that fast, but just cause it moves that fast don't mean it was intended to be used to mow that fast.

retrodog
10-23-2008, 09:15 AM
Wow, very defensive and sensitive as well... my ole my:dizzy:

First off, I have no issue with Diesel engines. If I wanted a 2500 or larger truck I would absolutely have a diesel over a gasser. If for any reason, just to get the extra pulling power. Me and you have had differing opinions on trucks in the past because I am not a diesel junkie and I feel for my own needs ( and the needs of most guys who mainly cut grass and do minor landscaping ) a 1/2 ton truck is more than up to the task and as we all know you can't even get a diesel in a 1/2 ton truck. My truck has broken in now with a little over 11,000 miles on it now and pulling my loaded 7x16 enclosed trailer around I am averaging in the 11.5-12 mpg range, and I have no issue as far as power or torque goes, I have no need for a diesel at all


Gasoline engines on lawnmowers.... I have never had one give me any kind of major problems. Worse things I have had to deal with is a blown headgasket on a old 18 horse Vanguard over 10 years ago, a blown ignition box on a 20 hp Kolher over 8 years ago, and a leaky lower main crankshaft oil seal on two different Kawasaki 14 hp engines. I have sold most of my old mowers to a friend who still uses them to this day, with all my old Bobcat ZTR's still in use today with well over 5000-6000 running hours on them. Most of them went over 4000 hours on the original engine. Sure the mowers look like hell now and they nickel and dime him with a pump that fails today and then a month later a spindle that fails, etc.... But he says they still work and still make him money, so he keeps sending his Mexican workers out on them everyday.

No doubt about it, the diesel engine should be more reliable. But in my opinion the gasoline engines are pretty dam reliable these days as well.


As for your scag ownership.... Why would you buy a 48 inch ZTR? The only people around here that buy those are newbies and homeowners. I have personally never used a 48 inch wide anything that left a good cut scag or otherwise. At any rate, what deck did your scags have? The advantage deck did not do as well as the early decks or the velocity decks out now. As like I said in other post, I can not say the scag would be good or bad if used to mulch grass. I don't think their deck was ever designed to be a good mulching deck but instead to be good with side discharge, which is how 99 percent of the people around here use a mower. You say underpowered, I personally can't understand that statement. Underpowered to mulch tall grass.... sure very possible. Underpowered to mow tall wet grass with side discharge, sure that is possible too. But underpowered as a general rule of thumb, sorry I have trouble believing that.


I have yet to use a mower that I felt was underpowered, everything from 60 inch hydro walkbehinds with 18 horse Vanguards, to the 17 horse 42 inch ZTR I use for gated backyards, to the Tigercub I currently use with a 61 inch deck and a 23 horse Vanguard. The only mower I used that felt like it might have been slightly underpowered was a Husquvarna ZTR I demoed 2 years ago that was their large frame rider with a 27 horse Kohler and it would bog going up hills, mowing would not bog it down, just going up hills or sudden demands on the hydro system. Maybe this is due to having oversize pumps over the stuff I was used to using.....

So what is your negative flaws that you saw when looking at the pictures? Just by having an oversized diesel engine on it? I have an lCO, and always thought a 72" was way to big. I have alot of open yards (from 3 acres to 44), and never even thought of owning one due to cost, and just the sheer size. I sold a 72" 27hp LC Kawasaki to a customer, and had to bump up the throttle, and still felt like it might be underpowered for that size deck so thus a bigger turn off to the 72". After selling a few diesels, one of my customers bought a dreaded 48" 30hp, and a 35hp 72" diesel and asked me if I wanted to go help him do a big yard. Out of curiosity and kindness too....lol I accepted. After running the big hoss on an 8 acre million dollar yard and getting finished in under an hour, when I got back to the shop I ordered one that same day. It was an amazing cut for having a huge deck, and was more nimble than any of the smaller mowers I have been on. I have used hoppers, exmark, scag, botas, and great danes (ewe), and so far this is the best sheer production mower I have ever came across. With a 60" and a 52" high speed mid deck, the best day I could get was around $1000 to $1200 bucks. YOu have to realize that around my area there is alot of drive time between yards, but by having big accounts make up for the drive time. When I got a 72" diesel BB, that mower and the 60" (with sharp blades of course and hoping small children don't jump out from around bushes...lol) I can now pull in my best grossing and also profit days I have ever had. In one day we now can gross a little over $2100 with 2 mowers. I paid for my diesel mower in 8 days of mowing with it by taking the profit generated out and putting all of it back into my mower. I love it when I get a commercial guy in the shop that says "I can't afford a $12000 mower!" I pull out my books from my lco, and show him how I paid for mine in 8 days, its always funny to see the looks on their face. Every once in a while I will get a guy thinking I am just blowing smoke, so I will invite him out to mow with us and show him its true. Funny thing is, our lot beside the shop is a good reference. It takes us 12 minutes to mow it with the diesel, and in our area the yard would bring about $30 bucks, so I invite those people just to mow the lot right there. That one mower (in real world conditions) can generate $1000 a day very easy. And thats not giving it justice really, with big wide open areas it has the potential for alot more than that.

nosparkplugs
10-23-2008, 10:32 AM
Where is the nightmare? It's early and I don't have my engineer glasses on yet.

I admit that the rear overhang seems essesive visually, but what I do not know is the rear to front weight weight ratio. With the seat (and operator) and larger deck all offsetting this rear overhang, they might be close to proper rear to front weight ratio.

The airfilter looks as though it sticks out in the pics but I think that it is recessed enough to protect it. I would rather have it here than higher on top where more stuff can hit it

As for the rearend overhang banging into stuff on turns, that will take some short retraining. Kind of like how a frontmount turns when next to walls/objects.

It does looks like BadBoy did a nice job trying to make everything accessible.

Not sure of how the rubber mat will hold up.

Could things look more refined? Yes. But help me see the nightmare

Let me say the rear of the AOS diesel still looks long to me, the Cat diesel is well placed in the frame HD motor mounts, Caterpillar has specific engine mounting spec's that must be meet before their engine can be mounted in any ZTR, BB obviously met the engineering spec's well. It's a simple design, the Cat diesel is simply very well balanced in this mower, contrary to the onlookers eye. Their is absolutely zero vibration at idle or wide open throttle, truly amazing, the blade tip seed is very audible, due to the low decibel Cat diesel and sounds like a turbo prop taxiing on the runway, something I have never experience'd, it's just amazing . Climbing with the engine overhang, It simply is a billy goat, climbs hills straight up very well, no rear approach (bottoming out) issues like most think, and can hold a side hill approach as big as your balls are, my first experience left me with a:) and their is a counter weight in the front under the foot rest plateform so the balance is perfect. the air filter canister is massive, and the mounting bracket is heavy duty, and dwarfs all others in shear mass & strenght. Yes it does give the impression it would be a problem, to anyone wanting to discredit this mower design:hammerhead:. Let me assure you after the day at the section 8 housing, lots of apartment units to smack the rear with:laugh:, air condition units, obstacles, low tree limbs to navigate not once did anything come close to the rear of the mower, nor has the air cleaner/canister got in the way at anytime. I do not use this on the average residential yard, or my average size high end account either. It is for right of way mowing, large residential estate's, Large apartment complex's, athletic fields, Large church's with 10+ acre's. I think some of your perspectives, are what this Mower could or would be in your personal business, and frankly is overkill for most.

Here's a perfect example of how well it's designed; despite all the controversy on the rear overhand & air cleaner canister mount. I forgot to re check the tie downs yesterday they were very loose:hammerhead:, and when I took off from a stop light the BB moved back into the mesh trailer gate, and the thick two rubber bumpers on the rear frame, did their job very well to protect the engine frame, air cleaner canister, and new orange paint job. That right there would have crushed the air canister it's very well designed, and tough mower. I think it would take a wall out, and the falling debris would be what damaged the mower or air canister:laugh:

Rons Rightway Lawncare
10-23-2008, 10:35 AM
Retro, I have no negative things to say about the mower in the pics at the beginning of this thread! Sure it is a big heavy engine out back, but as long as the front doesn't come off the ground on a hill I see no problem with that.

It was other people who were concerned that the airfilter looks exposed and that the rear end stuck out so far back there that you might hit stuff making turns in tight areas, but that is just something you would have to be aware of when operating this mower, not a problem really.

I do think that mower is overkill for a residential 1/4 to 1 acre lot. I will challenge anyone to do a good job, no skid marks or divots from the tires, to mow the same 1/4 lot with a big unit like that, faster and with a acceptable look afterwards as I can mow the same lot with my my 6999$ 23 horse Scag Tiger cub.... That mower would be great for mowing large commercial properties, medians on the highways, large parks, etc...

1100$ in one day per mower? that is almost twice what a person can expect to do around here. Maybe I should move to your neck of the woods and buy a Badboy Diesel...

nosparkplugs
10-23-2008, 10:50 AM
Retro, I have no negative things to say about the mower in the pics at the beginning of this thread! Sure it is a big heavy engine out back, but as long as the front doesn't come off the ground on a hill I see no problem with that.

It was other people who were concerned that the airfilter looks exposed and that the rear end stuck out so far back there that you might hit stuff making turns in tight areas, but that is just something you would have to be aware of when operating this mower, not a problem really.

I do think that mower is overkill for a residential 1/4 to 1 acre lot. I will challenge anyone to do a good job, no skid marks or divots from the tires, to mow the same 1/4 lot with a big unit like that, faster and with a acceptable look afterwards as I can mow the same lot with my my 6999$ 23 horse Scag Tiger cub.... That mower would be great for mowing large commercial properties, medians on the highways, large parks, etc...

1100$ in one day per mower? that is almost twice what a person can expect to do around here. Maybe I should move to your neck of the woods and buy a Badboy Diesel...


This is not a residential mower period, here you go again, classic example. Your looking for something to complain about, this is to much mower for you, that does not translate to a bad design for me or my application. I would put my Walker down on 100% of my small residentials, and leave a manicured cut rivaling any ZTR. I wanted to try the diesel on my personal property, guess what the AOS diesel yep, it's just way to big:laugh: it's called common sense & discipline, just cause you have a massive mower & power does not mean I pull it out on everything I have, their is no one perfect ZTR you need variety. Without the Compact Walker MT 42" GHS, and folding front deck I would not be able to get all my equipment; to include the AOS diesel on my trailer:hammerhead:.

tacoma200
10-23-2008, 02:17 PM
This particular model is more the AMC Gremlin as far as design and visual appeal go. There is nothing "Toyota" about it. Toyota is "streamlined" and well engineered. Every part fits and is well thought out ahead of production. This particular Bad Boy is less than the sum of its parts. Toyota would not produce the widest front caster forks in order to achieve a better ride. A rubber floor mat? I guess that's better than artificial (astro) turf. The seat looks very high. The rear end sticks out so excessively that only an engineer forced into trying to fit an overly long engine by his company would make this compromise. No way would Toyota put the air filter in such a vulnerable position. It was a compromise. The whole machine is a compromise to fit the Cat branded engine (not sure it that's who make it or not). The fuel tanks look generic and the tires would tear up turf with the average operator on board. And no I don't believe you when you say the cut is a good as a large Walker but it would be next Spring in the lush mid-west before one would know for sure. I am being open minded, this is no Toyota/Lexus. It's a Larry the Cable Guys fabrication shop model. I have no doubt that Bad Boy will grow but this model had to make so many sacrifices for the sake of the big diesel. There is nothing that says high tech, sleek, sophisticated, streamlined about this model. Great engine, pumps, motors don't guarantee a great design. If anyone can look me in the eye and say this isn't true I won't call you a liar but I will not take any more of your opinions very seriously. It will probably give you years of service (due to good parts) but it won't win any engineering contest at NASA, win a beauty contest, or be mistaken for a well thought out high tech design. I have watched several demo's, it's a powerful fast machine, that's about the best thing I can say about it. Scag has had to lengthen it's Tiger also to accommodate the 28 Cat and 72" Velocity deck. I'm not sure if they did any better because I can't get a picture of the whole unit. I did see an old Hustler with a diesel at a dealer, it was sitting rusting because it was such a mismatch nobody wanted it. They (The ZTR industry) are going to have to come up with a more compact diesel or a better frame/design. This just isn't practical. I'm not blindly loyal to any brand, this isn't about that. I stopped buying Exmark after the Triton, and it will be years before I would trust this new design (09). Not overly happy with the Scag engine choices but the design is definately time tested if not overly high tech. That's as unbiased as I can be.

And I'm not crazy about the post over the last couple of years with several of you using every post to cram Bad Boy down our throats. Heck they may be a good company but to have to push it in almost every post is a bit much. Your probably not being paid to do this but you act like you are.

Mike Blevins
10-23-2008, 03:01 PM
This particular model is more the AMC Gremlin as far as design and visual appeal go. There is nothing "Toyota" about it. Toyota is "streamlined" and well engineered. Every part fits and is well thought out ahead of production. This particular Bad Boy is less than the sum of its parts. Toyota would not produce the widest front caster forks in order to achieve a better ride. A rubber floor mat? I guess that's better than artificial (astro) turf. The seat looks very high. The rear end sticks out so excessively that only an engineer forced into trying to fit an overly long engine by his company would make this compromise. No way would Toyota put the air filter in such a vulnerable position. It was a compromise. The whole machine is a compromise to fit the Cat branded engine (not sure it that's who make it or not). The fuel tanks look generic and the tires would tear up turf with the average operator on board. And no I don't believe you when you say the cut is a good as a large Walker but it would be next Spring in the lush mid-west before one would know for sure. I am being open minded, this is no Toyota/Lexus. It's a Larry the Cable Guys fabrication shop model. I have no doubt that Bad Boy will grow but this model had to make so many sacrifices for the sake of the big diesel. There is nothing that says high tech, sleek, sophisticated, streamlined about this model. Great engine, pumps, motors don't guarantee a great design. If anyone can look me in the eye and say this isn't true I won't call you a liar but I will not take any more of your opinions very seriously. It will probably give you years of service (due to good parts) but it won't win any engineering contest at NASA, win a beauty contest, or be mistaken for a well thought out high tech design. I have watched several demo's, it's a powerful fast machine, that's about the best thing I can say about it. Scag has had to lengthen it's Tiger also to accommodate the 28 Cat and 72" Velocity deck. I'm not sure if they did any better because I can't get a picture of the whole unit. I did see an old Hustler with a diesel at a dealer, it was sitting rusting because it was such a mismatch nobody wanted it. They (The ZTR industry) are going to have to come up with a more compact diesel or a better frame/design. This just isn't practical. I'm not blindly loyal to any brand, this isn't about that. I stopped buying Exmark after the Triton, and it will be years before I would trust this new design (09). Not overly happy with the Scag engine choices but the design is definately time tested if not overly high tech. That's as unbiased as I can be.

And I'm not crazy about the post over the last couple of years with several of you using every post to cram Bad Boy down our throats. Heck they may be a good company but to have to push it in almost every post is a bit much. Your probably not being paid to do this but you act like you are.

Well said,

Backhoe Man
10-23-2008, 03:07 PM
I give it a 9 for Butt Ugly.....BH///////

nosparkplugs
10-23-2008, 03:38 PM
This particular model is more the AMC Gremlin as far as design and visual appeal go. There is nothing "Toyota" about it. Toyota is "streamlined" and well engineered. Every part fits and is well thought out ahead of production. This particular Bad Boy is less than the sum of its parts. Toyota would not produce the widest front caster forks in order to achieve a better ride. A rubber floor mat? I guess that's better than artificial (astro) turf. The seat looks very high. The rear end sticks out so excessively that only an engineer forced into trying to fit an overly long engine by his company would make this compromise. No way would Toyota put the air filter in such a vulnerable position. It was a compromise. The whole machine is a compromise to fit the Cat branded engine (not sure it that's who make it or not). The fuel tanks look generic and the tires would tear up turf with the average operator on board. And no I don't believe you when you say the cut is a good as a large Walker but it would be next Spring in the lush mid-west before one would know for sure. I am being open minded, this is no Toyota/Lexus. It's a Larry the Cable Guys fabrication shop model. I have no doubt that Bad Boy will grow but this model had to make so many sacrifices for the sake of the big diesel. There is nothing that says high tech, sleek, sophisticated, streamlined about this model. Great engine, pumps, motors don't guarantee a great design. If anyone can look me in the eye and say this isn't true I won't call you a liar but I will not take any more of your opinions very seriously. It will probably give you years of service (due to good parts) but it won't win any engineering contest at NASA, win a beauty contest, or be mistaken for a well thought out high tech design. I have watched several demo's, it's a powerful fast machine, that's about the best thing I can say about it. Scag has had to lengthen it's Tiger also to accommodate the 28 Cat and 72" Velocity deck. I'm not sure if they did any better because I can't get a picture of the whole unit. I did see an old Hustler with a diesel at a dealer, it was sitting rusting because it was such a mismatch nobody wanted it. They (The ZTR industry) are going to have to come up with a more compact diesel or a better frame/design. This just isn't practical. I'm not blindly loyal to any brand, this isn't about that. I stopped buying Exmark after the Triton, and it will be years before I would trust this new design (09). Not overly happy with the Scag engine choices but the design is definately time tested if not overly high tech. That's as unbiased as I can be.

And I'm not crazy about the post over the last couple of years with several of you using every post to cram Bad Boy down our throats. Heck they may be a good company but to have to push it in almost every post is a bit much. Your probably not being paid to do this but you act like you are.

Lets argue over a "rubber floormate":laugh:, at least it does not wear the paint off a exposed metal floor plate, like my Tiger cub floor plate did, and a medal floor plate is very slippery even the Scag's, rubber mate nice touch or improvement:laugh:

Its a model C1.6 Caterpillar, Perkins diesel was purchased by Caterpiller, the Fuel injector pump is Perkins, Block, head, internals are Cat.

Just got off the Phone with the local Cat people out of 30,000 units/serial numbers in use all applications ie: wood chippers, generators, other equipment, and ZTR's. These applications range form the cleanest to harshest conditions; which is ZTR use. The Cat dealer engineer said their repair rate is less than 1 unit per month for 3 States, thats bulletproof, or that 1 unit repair most were "self" inflicted owner damage, not chaining oil, no fuel filter changes, continuing to run poor fuel when water was found. Average repair time was less than 3hours.

Where ever your loyalty lies? does not matter; because the over wheeling consensus is that the BS mower hierarchy of this industry is going to change just like the economy has,nothing is guaranteed . Again I was funded for $15,000, so i did not Balk on quality just cost, my position is no different to the swarms of loyal Scag guys coming to the rescue on any post question this hierarchy, or any that challenges the Scag cut quality, yep the BB cut quality pictures next spring will end this debate.

I Like my AMC Gremiln, this is a more accurate Analogy
After owning the BB AOS diesel the design is functional I find no compromise to get the 35hp cat diesel in the frame, and US engineers have not been know for the prettiest designs; however remember the Japs could not beat the Gruman Wildcat, with their superior Zero:laugh: Many grew to love the Gruman Wildcat, and went down in history as a pivotal fighter design, Just like the BB AOS diesel will, to many its ugly, to it's owners its a work or art. History shows true dominance lies in the biggest engine, another example the original P-51 mustang was a slug, unitl the Merlin v-12 replaced the stock engine Germans ME109 were formidable foe's (specs showed superior) with their MB inverted EFI V-12's but still no match for a once thought inferior P-51 design with it's new Merlin V-12, brought the P-51 to life:hammerhead:. Scag should have seen this coming, and matched BB with the same 35hp cat, not some 3 cylinder Wana be 4 banger Cat for 3-4K more. Again the BB AOS diesel may be a mediocare design & deck:laugh:, ugly, but came to life with the marriage of a 35hp 4cylinder Cat diesel.

Who cares I like Dodge, some like Ford, some like chevrolet.

I feel I have the advantage with Dodge/Cummins many disagree, so I'm use to this? :laugh:

puppypaws
10-23-2008, 04:04 PM
This is very funny, you will need a saddle if you want to ride Jessica Simpson with her bush...hogging. None of the zero turn mowers are pretty or ugly in my sight. It can be a figment of the imagination, if more mowers started looking like BB, sitting higher with the blunt front end. I can promise with our human thinking it would not take long until the ones we think to look good now would look strange over a period of time.

It is the same as when a truck body style is changed, at first they look strange, and we do not like them. Then over time the look makes an impression in our brain and all of a sudden we like the look. Then the ones we once loved look outdated, and we no longer have that loving feeling for the old design. We have all experienced this and none of us can say we haven't.

I personally did not like the Yukon XL body style change from 2005, but it is gradually getting better and better. Before much longer I want know what I was thinking when saying the 2005 body style looks much better than the newer boxy body style.

As one famous gentleman once said, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder," now, function ability is another subject for a later date.

Razorblades
10-23-2008, 04:04 PM
Well said,

I understand where you guys are coming from and I don't have a "dog in this fight" so to speak, since I don't own either brand but it works both ways. I 've seen many threads turned the other way, with some Scag owners extolling the virtues of their mowers, inferring the superiority of them. There's nothing wrong with bragging on your mower some, we all do it from time to time, but it's not JUST the Bad Boy guys that get wound up. The wide castors wouldn't be a problem for me with the 72" deck, since it extends well past the edge of hte castors. as for the rest being bad engineering, I'm not convinced about that. I figure that time and hrs on units will determine those points. It sit's higher, isn't streamlined, definitely doesn't fit the "normal look of most ZT's. Unappealing looks doesn't necessarily mean bad engineering. Time will tell about that.

TLS
10-23-2008, 05:12 PM
Lets see some more pictures.....under the deck, under the foot plate, behind the rear door. Maybe for size comparisons, park it next to your Walker.

WREBELMACHINE
10-23-2008, 05:38 PM
Oh goody another BB thread! congrats on the mower I hope it serves you well!! Hopefully and it sounds like the cutting issue must be corrected!

Retro back to pricing again in one of the posts you have on here that you cannot think of any mower with a 31hp kaw on any platform that costs less than 10k!

I can think of three off the top of my head locally!

What is the price of the 35hp 72" diesel? Is there really a big price savings?

Happy Frog
10-23-2008, 06:13 PM
Nosparkplugs,

Congratulations on your new mower, I wish you the best with it.
Funny how some who never owned a Bad Boys mower are just bashing them when you say you actually like the one you have, isn't it?

Oh well... :drinkup:

Mike Blevins
10-23-2008, 06:17 PM
Lets argue over a "rubber floormate":laugh:, at least it does not wear the paint off a exposed metal floor plate, like my Tiger cub floor plate did, and a medal floor plate is very slippery even the Scag's, rubber mate nice touch or improvement:laugh:

Its a model C1.6 Caterpillar, Perkins diesel was purchased by Caterpiller, the Fuel injector pump is Perkins, Block, head, internals are Cat.

Just got off the Phone with the local Cat people out of 30,000 units/serial numbers in use all applications ie: wood chippers, generators, other equipment, and ZTR's. These applications range form the cleanest to harshest conditions; which is ZTR use. The Cat dealer engineer said their repair rate is less than 1 unit per month for 3 States, thats bulletproof, or that 1 unit repair most were "self" inflicted owner damage, not chaining oil, no fuel filter changes, continuing to run poor fuel when water was found. Average repair time was less than 3hours.

Where ever your loyalty lies? does not matter; because the over wheeling consensus is that the BS mower hierarchy of this industry is going to change just like the economy has,nothing is guaranteed . Again I was funded for $15,000, so i did not Balk on quality just cost, my position is no different to the swarms of loyal Scag guys coming to the rescue on any post question this hierarchy, or any that challenges the Scag cut quality, yep the BB cut quality pictures next spring will end this debate.

I Like my AMC Gremiln, this is a more accurate Analogy
After owning the BB AOS diesel the design is functional I find no compromise to get the 35hp cat diesel in the frame, and US engineers have not been know for the prettiest designs; however remember the Japs could not beat the Gruman Wildcat, with their superior Zero:laugh: Many grew to love the Gruman Wildcat, and went down in history as a pivotal fighter design, Just like the BB AOS diesel will, to many its ugly, to it's owners its a work or art. History shows true dominance lies in the biggest engine, another example the original P-51 mustang was a slug, unitl the Merlin v-12 replaced the stock engine Germans ME109 were formidable foe's (specs showed superior) with their MB inverted EFI V-12's but still no match for a once thought inferior P-51 design with it's new Merlin V-12, brought the P-51 to life:hammerhead:. Scag should have seen this coming, and matched BB with the same 35hp cat, not some 3 cylinder Wana be 4 banger Cat for 3-4K more. Again the BB AOS diesel may be a mediocare design & deck:laugh:, ugly, but came to life with the marriage of a 35hp 4cylinder Cat diesel.

Who cares I like Dodge, some like Ford, some like chevrolet.

I feel I have the advantage with Dodge/Cummins many disagree, so I'm use to this? :laugh:

You talk like Scag is hurting because of Badboy. :laugh::laugh::laugh: I have seen more Scags this year than ever.Hell I know of 6 that have been purchased in the last 5 mos. With all of the "bad economy" everyone has a new mower. We have a Badboy dealer just as close as our Scag Dealers and I have yet to see a BAdboy on a trailer. I went and looked at a Badboy before I bought. And got to do a pretty good demo with it. (Mowing,slopes,hills,turns,running on pavement&gravel,flat yard,etc.) My opinion is just that my opinion but, there is just no comparison in these machines as far as cut and quality. Scag wins hands down along with other things like warranty,local dealer support,(My dealer can't be touched on support),hillside mowing,looks,resale value,options,reputation,quality,etc.,etc. For my business Badboy wasn't the way to go. For you it was, Good luck to you.

nosparkplugs
10-23-2008, 07:11 PM
You talk like Scag is hurting because of Badboy. :laugh::laugh::laugh: I have seen more Scags this year than ever.Hell I know of 6 that have been purchased in the last 5 mos. With all of the "bad economy" everyone has a new mower. We have a Badboy dealer just as close as our Scag Dealers and I have yet to see a BAdboy on a trailer. I went and looked at a Badboy before I bought. And got to do a pretty good demo with it. (Mowing,slopes,hills,turns,running on pavement&gravel,flat yard,etc.) My opinion is just that my opinion but, there is just no comparison in these machines as far as cut and quality. Scag wins hands down along with other things like warranty,local dealer support,(My dealer can't be touched on support),hillside mowing,looks,resale value,options,reputation,quality,etc.,etc. For my business Badboy wasn't the way to go. For you it was, Good luck to you.

Yep Bad economy? good credit equal a buyers market:clapping:: More mower for the money equals a wise business investment.

Stacking the deck:
Was the demo apples to apples TT vs the AOS line-up, gas or diesel? or the Wilcat vs Lightning LC or AC, cause what I have been reading on these demo's some guys are comparing a TT to the lightning, which is like a Wildcat vs the tiger cub.

When I first joined lawnsite I had never really payed attention to BB, nor did I have an opinion for or against no dealer here. I did notice, almost instant, cult like attacks on anyone posting about BB mowers, like a shark attack, unfair bias against them, and that is what first attracted my attention to the company. Lots of research,I made up my own mind if I would have listen'd to everyone on here I would have made a mistake not purchasing the BB. So with that said I am going to tell my positive ownership of the big diesel; which frankly many would like to go away.

No one seems to realize, I would not purchase any ZTR if it did lay a quality cut, and I do not disagree that some early BB models had some cut quality issues, to so many members on here I "gambled" guess what it was worth it in every way. That makes it even more sweat of a deal for me, "guess the Scag TT was underpowered, and posed no purchase risk, sometimes you must gamble to get ahead", although that statement is not how I feel, but how I feel the majority of you think. My business is doing well I need not show my status buy owning a $16k+ Scag TT diesel that would have caused less headache in the long run though:laugh: yes the praises would be overwheeling; however I feel obligated to spread the news about my positive experience, and the little secret is out BB is no joke, and is a true commercial machine with a quality manicured cut for less money.

tacoma200
10-23-2008, 08:17 PM
Yep Bad economy? good credit equal a buyers market:clapping:: More mower for the money equals a wise business investment.

When I first joined lawnsite I had never really payed attention to BB, nor did I have an opinion for or against no dealer here. I did notice, almost instant, cult like attacks on anyone posting about BB mowers, like a shark attack, unfair bias against them, and that is what first attracted my attention to the company. Lots of research,I made up my own mind if I would have listen'd to everyone on here I would have made a mistake not purchasing the BB. So with that said I am going to tell my positive ownership of the big diesel; which frankly many would like to go away.

No one seems to realize, I would not purchase any ZTR if it did lay a quality cut, and I do not disagree that some early BB models had some cut quality issues, to so many members on here I "gambled" guess what it was worth it in every way. That makes it even more sweat of a deal for me, "guess the Scag TT was underpowered, and posed no purchase risk, sometimes you must gamble to get ahead", although that statement is not how I feel, but how I feel the majority of you think. My business is doing well I need not show my status buy owning a $16k+ Scag TT diesel that would have caused less headache in the long run though:laugh: yes the praises would be overwheeling; however I feel obligated to spread the news about my positive experience, and the little secret is out BB is no joke, and is a true commercial machine with a quality manicured cut for less money.


nosparkplugs, when I first came to this forum Exmark was "God" and nothing bad could be said about them it seems. I had never heard of them and bought one, then another. I was loyal and never thought I would own another brand until the Triton mess. Even though I was an Exmark fan I had to be honest and say many were not pleased with them and I cut them no slack even though I liked and still like the company. I really didn't like Scag at the time but I needed a larger more powerful ZTR that would stick to hill and Exmark didn't offer it so I found a Scag TT that had been sitting a while and had a Velocity deck mounted to try to move it. The controls were stiff compared to the Exmark, it was slower to maneuver, but after 50 hrs in the seat it grew on me. Lawns I once would wait on till they dried or were too steep now were fair game. And the 31 hp Briggs had more than ample power, the cut quality was down on manicured lawns but it actually did better on wet, steep, overgrown, etc and the finish was still good, just not as good as Exmark. The back end hangs over a bit on the Turf Tiger and it does give me problems every now and then. So I know the diesel Bad Boy would give even more with the extra overhang.

Anyway at the time Scag got bashed a lot until Exmark made the Triton which by most accounts was a failure. With the Velocity Plus the Scag slowly grew more accepted but they took their fair share of bashing. Hustler was supposed to be a super mower but the XR7 started getting them bashed. Then John Deere with the 7 Irons which was also above reproach, although just getting into the market they were receiving great reviews until the 800 series, then they were bashed. I don't think Bad Boy has received any more bashing or bias than any other brand DEPENDING ON WHAT YEAR YOU WERE POSTING OR READING POST. There is not hardly a brand out there that hasn't taken a lot of flack. Bad Boy may be in the top 2 or 3 brands eventually. This big diesel isn't going to be the bread and butter for them though. I'm not the one that stated Bad Boy was the Toyota of ZTR's, I'm the one that refuted the claim because they have nothing in common. Toyota developed it's first prototype vehicle in 1935 by its founder Kiichiro Toyoda who was born in 1894. Toyota wasn't a new, just new to the U.S. at one point. I am open minded but it seems you and Retrodog have been beating us over the head, constantly promoting Bad Boy shamelessly. To be honest when I saw the profile (picture from the side) of the Bad Boy diesel I laughed for several minutes and almost didn't post. But I have watched the video's and seen the demo's on youtube. They are very fast, powerful, and did climb hills fairly well. I feel like the engineers were forced to make it fit and it will end up like the Dodge Viper, not very practical for most but give the company some bragging rights. The Diesel Bad Boy will probably do what it was intended to do, cut a lot of grass, fast, if not graceful. It will be funtional for a limited purpose. Bad Boy has not been picked on anymore than other company's, you just haven't been here long enough. I wouldn't pay $16,000 for a Scag Diesel either. I paid $8,000+ for my Tiger, new but a left over model. An no I don't think Scag is anything other than a time provenm, capable, design nothing more, nothing less in fact it is a bit dated but they are slow to change which after watching John Deere seems to be wise move. You have every right to express you satisfaction with your new machine as does anyone on this forum.

nosparkplugs
10-23-2008, 08:53 PM
nosparkplugs, when I first came to this forum Exmark was "God" and nothing bad could be said about them it seems. I had never heard of them and bought one, then another. I was loyal and never thought I would own another brand until the Triton mess. Even though I was an Exmark fan I had to be honest and say many were not pleased with them and I cut them no slack even though I liked and still like the company. I really didn't like Scag at the time but I needed a larger more powerful ZTR that would stick to hill and Exmark didn't offer it so I found a Scag TT that had been sitting a while and had a Velocity deck mounted to try to move it. The controls were stiff compared to the Exmark, it was slower to maneuver, but after 50 hrs in the seat it grew on me. Lawns I once would wait on till they dried or were too steep now were fair game. And the 31 hp Briggs had more than ample power, the cut quality was down on manicured lawns but it actually did better on wet, steep, overgrown, etc and the finish was still good, just not as good as Exmark. The back end hangs over a bit on the Turf Tiger and it does give me problems every now and then. So I know the diesel Bad Boy would give even more with the extra overhang.

Anyway at the time Scag got bashed a lot until Exmark made the Triton which by most accounts was a failure. With the Velocity Plus the Scag slowly grew more accepted but they took their fair share of bashing. Hustler was supposed to be a super mower but the XR7 started getting them bashed. Then John Deere with the 7 Irons which was also above reproach, although just getting into the market they were receiving great reviews until the 800 series, then they were bashed. I don't think Bad Boy has received any more bashing or bias than any other brand DEPENDING ON WHAT YEAR YOU WERE POSTING OR READING POST. There is not hardly a brand out there that hasn't taken a lot of flack. Bad Boy may be in the top 2 or 3 brands eventually. This big diesel isn't going to be the bread and butter for them though. I'm not the one that stated Bad Boy was the Toyota of ZTR's, I'm the one that refuted the claim because they have nothing in common. Toyota developed it's first prototype vehicle in 1935 by its founder Kiichiro Toyoda who was born in 1894. Toyota wasn't a new, just new to the U.S. at one point. I am open minded but it seems you and Retrodog have been beating us over the head, constantly promoting Bad Boy shamelessly. To be honest when I saw the profile (picture from the side) of the Bad Boy diesel I laughed for several minutes and almost didn't post. But I have watched the video's and seen the demo's on youtube. They are very fast, powerful, and did climb hills fairly well. I feel like the engineers were forced to make it fit and it will end up like the Dodge Viper, not very practical for most but give the company some bragging rights. The Diesel Bad Boy will probably do what it was intended to do, cut a lot of grass, fast, if not graceful. It will be funtional for a limited purpose. Bad Boy has not been picked on anymore than other company's, you just haven't been here long enough. I wouldn't pay $16,000 for a Scag Diesel either. I paid $8,000+ for my Tiger, new but a left over model. An no I don't think Scag is anything other than a time provenm, capable, design nothing more, nothing less in fact it is a bit dated but they are slow to change which after watching John Deere seems to be wise move. You have every right to express you satisfaction with your new machine as does anyone on this forum.

I just took delivery on monday,:laugh: Retrodog has been "beating your Heads" way longer than me. I was previously taking more beatings for considering the AOS diesel, before I became freinds with Retrodog. For me, it's a combination of new mower syndrome:laugh:, and my satisfaction with this diesel mower, and vindication of now knowing the truth about these mowers.

Retrodog is a Bad Boy dealer, so I understand that it can get old; however he is truly passoniate about these mowers, something I have not experienced in a very long time, and talking to the local "competetion" that passion is not their anymore their almost content:confused: with or without a sale. I appreciate his attention to detail, and has done more than any other dealer, before or after the sale, to ensure I am satisfied, if thats a crime he is gulity of good dealer service. He's truly a honest hard working guy, sorry he sells ZTR's you'all don't like; becuase personally he's a very likable guy.

MJB
10-23-2008, 09:44 PM
You talk like Scag is hurting because of Badboy. :laugh::laugh::laugh: I have seen more Scags this year than ever.Hell I know of 6 that have been purchased in the last 5 mos. With all of the "bad economy" everyone has a new mower. We have a Badboy dealer just as close as our Scag Dealers and I have yet to see a BAdboy on a trailer. I went and looked at a Badboy before I bought. And got to do a pretty good demo with it. (Mowing,slopes,hills,turns,running on pavement&gravel,flat yard,etc.) My opinion is just that my opinion but, there is just no comparison in these machines as far as cut and quality. Scag wins hands down along with other things like warranty,local dealer support,(My dealer can't be touched on support),hillside mowing,looks,resale value,options,reputation,quality,etc.,etc. For my business Badboy wasn't the way to go. For you it was, Good luck to you.


Mike, Bad Boy is growing faster than most of think I've talked to dealer in Canada who was buying 57 at a time because they are selling that fast. I wish BB were in Wa St. My dealer is a longtime Scag dealer, and Hustler dealer. Hustler is outselling Scag by more than 10 to 1 in Spokane Wa. My dealer told me if he takes them out to a demo side by side he will almost always bring the Scag home. Now I'm not bashing Scag at all I like em better than Hustler, but it goes to show that just because 1 dealer pushes Scag it doesn't mean anything. When I talked to the dealer this summer who ordered
57 BBoys he had sold all but 17 in 3 months that is impressive. Bottom line is If I can buy a BB for less and still get a decent quality cut like my Exmark I'll change to BB as soon as I get a dealer within a 100 miles. Why pay all that money if you don't have too? I don't care what color a mower is if it does what I need it to do. But your right that Scag is not hurting yet, but if they and Exmark keep raising prices I can see writting on the wall. Forget brand loyalty...:waving:

Happy Frog
10-23-2008, 09:55 PM
Some learn faster than others... :waving:

Rons Rightway Lawncare
10-23-2008, 10:44 PM
This is not a residential mower period, here you go again, classic example. Your looking for something to complain about, this is to much mower for you, that does not translate to a bad design for me or my application. I would put my Walker down on 100% of my small residentials, and leave a manicured cut rivaling any ZTR. I wanted to try the diesel on my personal property, guess what the AOS diesel yep, it's just way to big:laugh: it's called common sense & discipline, just cause you have a massive mower & power does not mean I pull it out on everything I have, their is no one perfect ZTR you need variety. Without the Compact Walker MT 42" GHS, and folding front deck I would not be able to get all my equipment; to include the AOS diesel on my trailer:hammerhead:.

Is this a war or something? I am not complaining.... I am just posting my opinion, just as you are doing. This is what we do on internet forums!

I am reading your thread and the way it was reading, at least in the beginning was you stating that this mower was great, and was a better machine than a overpriced and underpowered Scag.

A smart person would read what you said, take a look at the mower, take a look at their needs and make a wise decision on if they even need a mower of this size and class.

But alot of people aren't very smart. Alot of people would look at a mower like this badboy and assume bigger means better..... That more power means better...... That diesel powered means better.....

You are saying that you bought it for wide area mowing and large properties, which is what you feel the mower is best suited for. And I agree with you!

I just hope for other peoples sake, they don't fool themselves into thinking a machine like this is what they need for normal sized residential or small commercial mowing.

I will and do argue with you about your opinion of Scag products. I know through my own experience that the Scags I have used are not underpowered, and they are well built and have one of the best if not the absolute best cut of all the mainstream ZTR's on the market. Are they overpriced? Well they do cost more than most machines, and in some instances they may be way more expensive than simular machines, such as the price difference between your new Badboy diesel verses the Turf Tiger with the big Diesel engine. ( if it makes any difference to you I would have bought the Badboy over the scag, just due to the money difference, myself if I had been in your shoes and had the need for a mower of this class )

nosparkplugs
10-23-2008, 11:02 PM
Is this a war or something? I am not complaining.... I am just posting my opinion, just as you are doing. This is what we do on internet forums!

I am reading your thread and the way it was reading, at least in the beginning was you stating that this mower was great, and was a better machine than a overpriced and underpowered Scag.

A smart person would read what you said, take a look at the mower, take a look at their needs and make a wise decision on if they even need a mower of this size and class.

But alot of people aren't very smart. Alot of people would look at a mower like this badboy and assume bigger means better..... That more power means better...... That diesel powered means better.....

You are saying that you bought it for wide area mowing and large properties, which is what you feel the mower is best suited for. And I agree with you!

I just hope for other peoples sake, they don't fool themselves into thinking a machine like this is what they need for normal sized residential or small commercial mowing.

I will and do argue with you about your opinion of Scag products. I know through my own experience that the Scags I have used are not underpowered, and they are well built and have one of the best if not the absolute best cut of all the mainstream ZTR's on the market. Are they overpriced? Well they do cost more than most machines, and in some instances they may be way more expensive than simular machines, such as the price difference between your new Badboy diesel verses the Turf Tiger with the big Diesel engine. ( if it makes any difference to you I would have bought the Badboy over the scag, just due to the money difference, myself if I had been in your shoes and had the need for a mower of this class )

if I was rich, I would have purchased the Scag TT 28hp Cat diesel, "Money Talks & Bull**** walks" I want to ride

No personal beef with anyone or anyone's mowers their all nice machines were splitting hairs sometimes, but thats the nature of this industry :laugh:*trucewhiteflag* :laugh:no war, I agree, this is not a "residential" ZTR. Folks please don't fool yourself into needing the AOS diesel unless your looking for a large frame diesel ZTR especially with the 72" deck, and the monster truck tires:laugh: really :waving:it does not tear the turf anymore than other mowers I have, you just gotta lay off the gas or hydro's longer on this thing when turning, the 72" & Cat diesel more than makes up for the slower turns on those wide area's.

Rons Rightway Lawncare
10-23-2008, 11:33 PM
if I was rich, I would have purchased the Scag TT 28hp Cat diesel, "Money Talks & Bull**** walks" I want to ride

No personal beef with anyone or anyone's mowers their all nice machines were splitting hairs sometimes, but thats the nature of this industry :laugh:*trucewhiteflag* :laugh:no war, I agree, this is not a "residential" ZTR. Folks please don't fool yourself into needing the AOS diesel unless your looking for a large frame diesel ZTR especially with the 72" deck, and the monster truck tires:laugh: really :waving:it does not tear the turf anymore than other mowers I have, you just gotta lay off the gas or hydro's longer on this thing when turning, the 72" & Cat diesel more than makes up for the slower turns on those wide area's.

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying those Chevron tires would be bad at tearing up the grass! I once used a Dixie Chopper for a few days with that style tire and it didn't tear the grass at all.

My demo on the BB lightening, I had problems trying to turn or even just cut around trees and landscape beds without the turf being ripped or torn by the Maxxis turf tires on that mower. It was significantly more of a problem than the Carlise tires on my Scag. I attribute the problem more to the tires than the mower, cause I had the same problem with 2 different Everride mowers I demoed, both used the same tire as the badboy.

And yes, if I were cross shopping Diesel ZTR's, I would have picked the Badboy over the Scag absolutely. Bigger engine, better ride and far less money.

I don't think the cut would be as good as you would get with a Scag, I honestly don't. I know for a fact the Badboy mower I demo'ed did not cut as cleanly as my Scag, and it did not leave much of a stripe either. Now saying that, I would still say the Badboy had a acceptable cut, and a stripe kit would probably help out in that area if stripes were important to the end user.

I read all the posts in this thread and some are ridiculous. The Bad boy looks just fine to me. I like the way they look to be honest. And as far as engineering goes, to my backyard engineering degree holding eyes, Everything I saw on the badboy lightening seemed well built to me.

The rubber floor mat.... I think it is a great idea. Some mowers use grip tape on the floorboard ( Bobcats for example ) well that grip tape would wear out your shoes fast from your feet bouncing around all day on it. My scag has grippy holes drilled in it, Well crazy as it sounds, sometimes If I had a lot to cut and I know I will be on the mower for a hour or more, I will take my shoes off to let my feet air out or shoes dry out etc... The scag floorboard sucks when you don't have shoes on! The rubber floormat offers the best grip and it is soft and comfortable, which even with your shoes on translates into more comfort overall for the operator, so I can't see why anyone would complain.

I have never spent more than 7500$ on a mower. I have demo'ed mowers that sell for well over 10 grand but they didn't do anything more for MY needs than the 7500$ unit did, so I stick to 7500$ mowers for now. I demo'ed the Lightening earlier this year because I was unhappy with the rough ride of my Wildcat on the dry drought stricken lawns I had been cutting.... I looked at the Badboy while at the dealer getting a part for my Wildcat, they had the lightening with the 26 horse LC kawasaki on sale for 7499$ plus tax, and even had a " free " 500$ gas card thrown in. Looking at it, it seemed to be just what I wanted.

I used it and came away impressed, but it had a few quirks I wasn't happy with... The seat was just a tad too high for my tastes, I was unable to mow under some trees I could mow under on my scag, I was hitting stuff with the left front caster as the caster was almost as wide as the deck, and I didn't like the tires, and I didn't really like the electric lift and not having a foot assit ( although I know I could have had one added at the dealer ) The cut was good, but not as good as the scag, and there was a few ergonomic quirks that bothered me such as both the key and choke on the same side and the choke would not say engaged by itself so I had to hold it up with my left hand and start with the right hand which was akwards to do... and the left side seat armrest got in the way of the parking brake.

Sounds like alot of stuff I didn't like, but overall I liked the machine and had I had to choose between this mower at what was bascially 7 grand ( after the 500$ in free gas ) verses a new Wildcat or Turftiger at 9 to 10 grand, I would have saved the money and bought the Badboy without even thinking about it. But I was so used to my scag and since the main thing I wanted was a smoother ride I just bought another scag and put a suspension seat on it. I got the scag cheaper than the badboy, although my new scag has a cheaper and less powerful engine....

Anyway, the point is I am not a badboy hater. I think they are a good mower and one any one shopping for a mower should try to go set up a demo and see if it works for them, cause they are a good value and worth consideration.

tacoma200
10-24-2008, 12:27 AM
After running air cooled ZTR's for over 7 years, the step to LC diesel was long overdue, and is worth the cost.



Cut Quality, All I can say is MANICURED CUT, at 15mph:clapping::clapping: It looked equal to the Walker. Hard to believe?

Sorry Scag owners are in denial this is a far superior machine, in all respects. I also have an extra 3k in my pocket vs the overpriced, underpowered Scag TT 28hp Cat.


http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff141/nosparkplugs71/BBAOS1.jpg

Well, if you had just left that last paragraph off this post would be a couple of pages shorter no doubt. It sure looks like you were trying to rub something in Scag owners faces, am I wrong? I'm not brand loyal and I don't care but you did ruffle a few feathers as you knew you would with that statement. The last picture of the engine hanging 4 ft (guess) behind the back tires was what got me wondering what they were thinking when they engineered it. I guess that's why most companies are running the smaller diesels because this was definitely a challenge (or an engineer's nightmare as I put it). Let me be clear, putting that physically over sized Cat engine in a ZTR that size does seem like an engineering nightmare to me. If others don't see it that way that's fine. I have nothing against you (nosparkplugs) or RetroDog but I leave this forum for a while and it seems like the same old fussing and fighting is going on on the same subjects. And you did rub it in the Scags guys faces, I think that's clear from your statement above.

Why did you make this statement if you also said the Bad Boy diesel was superior in "all respects" ?

Your quote: "if I was rich, I would have purchased the Scag TT 28hp Cat diesel"

Just not understanding you on this post. But I'm happy you like your new machine.*trucewhiteflag*

puppypaws
10-24-2008, 07:50 AM
if I was rich, I would have purchased the Scag TT 28hp Cat diesel, "Money Talks & Bull**** walks" I want to ride



Why would you make this statement? You have much more mower than a TT with the 28 Cat. I can promise there is no comparison, the 28 Cat just doesn't have it.

I would say the big Vanguard on a 72" decked TT would more realistically hang with you power wise, but you also need to take into consideration the AOS is a 15 mph machine while the TT is only 12. These machines are designed for large area mowing, and I can tell you without doubt the BB will be much more productive and easier on the operator. The BB 35/72 will eat the TT 28/72 alive, there is just no comparison in these engines. I personally could not believe how weak the 28 Cat felt on the 72" decked BB, while at the same time rattling, sounding extremely loud and rough. The reasoning behind this is the 28 is a 3 cylinder while the monster 35 is a smoother running 4 cylinder.

I don't know what if any changes were made to the 72" deck on the AOS model, but I do know from experience the 72" cut better than the 60" I ran on the Lightning model. I was impressed; I could put the 72" BB deck on ditch banks and in the bottom of ditches as easily as the 60" or 66" I run. The 35/72 AOS is not made for small jobs with obstacles, this machine is made to pull the bridle off and turn loose in large areas, and I would say the rougher it is the better it would like it.

I cut at lower heights because it looks better when you do not have pure turf grass. I will not comment on the cut of the BB on pure turf grass at 3 1/2 to 4" cutting heights, but I will say from experience, below 3" it will cut probably equally as well as any on the market. I never saw any unevenness or stragglers of any grass or weeds left uncut at any speed, and I ran at 15 mph a large majority of the time.

I don't want to burst anyone's bubble because I do not own a BB AOS or a Scag TT, but will tell you without doubt the BB will ride much, much better than the Scag TT and will be 25% more productive in a days cutting. This is nothing but common sense, you have the same size decks on each mower. The BB 35/72 will not come upon any cutting situation that will slow it down from the 15 mph cutting speed it is running. This will be in the seat of as comfortable riding mower as there is on the market, which keeps the operator more productive from less fatigue.

The TT will ride much rougher at a much slower speed, there will also be places rough enough you will come off the TT's maximum speed to stay in the seat. You will not find this with the suspension system on the heavier BB AOS model, this machine rides as well if not probably a little better (due to weight difference) than my Super Z with flex forks and flex seat. I know this to be reality from experience of me running the BB at 15 mph through the roughest areas I cut, so no this is not a guess or opinion it is fact.

I can take a Hustler Super Z set up the way mine is with a 72" deck and cut the same amount of normal size grass as the 35/72 BB in large obstacle free areas. I will cut more grass with the Super Z if there is a large number of obstacles to maneuver around due to the hydraulic smoothness and easier mobility of the smaller lower profile Hustler.

From the type mowing your machine will be performing, I will say from experience you made an excellent choice. You purchased much more machine with a top of the line engine for a lot less money. If you take a look at what BB is able to accomplish and stay in this price range, what does that tell you about how other mower manufactures are pricing their machines?

Rons Rightway Lawncare
10-24-2008, 09:30 AM
Puppypaws, I would like to see a property after being mowed at 15 mph with any mower.

Also the reason the 72 might cut better than the 60 inch, is the blades are longer. It is my opinion that the longer the blade the better the cut will be.... 52 inch decks always seemed to do better than 48 inches, 61 inches better than 52, 72 better than 61, etc....

Mike Blevins
10-24-2008, 09:57 AM
Mike, Bad Boy is growing faster than most of think I've talked to dealer in Canada who was buying 57 at a time because they are selling that fast. I wish BB were in Wa St. My dealer is a longtime Scag dealer, and Hustler dealer. Hustler is outselling Scag by more than 10 to 1 in Spokane Wa. My dealer told me if he takes them out to a demo side by side he will almost always bring the Scag home. Now I'm not bashing Scag at all I like em better than Hustler, but it goes to show that just because 1 dealer pushes Scag it doesn't mean anything. When I talked to the dealer this summer who ordered
57 BBoys he had sold all but 17 in 3 months that is impressive. Bottom line is If I can buy a BB for less and still get a decent quality cut like my Exmark I'll change to BB as soon as I get a dealer within a 100 miles. Why pay all that money if you don't have too? I don't care what color a mower is if it does what I need it to do. But your right that Scag is not hurting yet, but if they and Exmark keep raising prices I can see writting on the wall. Forget brand loyalty...:waving:

For myself I didn't go out to look for a "cheaper" comparible ztr to a Scag. I owned a Scag and was looking for a new mower no matter what brand. I was loooking for what I thought the best purchase for my company was. I myself spend alot of time researching and comparing mower models and options. The "price points" as far as Badboy goes wasn't that different compared to a Scag here in my part of the country. I know Scags are more expensive in different places and dealers. Exmark and grasshoppers are your most expensive mowers here, along with kubota. So if I was going to Buy the most expensive mower out there it surely wouldn't be the Scag around here. Like I said I had used Scag before and wanted to give the other names a look before I bought. I have a neighbor that is Deere 757 all the way! And I demoed those also. Along with Exmark,Hustler,Grasshopper,and yes Scag. With believe it or not the Scag next to last on price. I looked at these machines at every way possible to compare to each other and some had greater points than the Scag on some things. But to the total pachage mower for me was the Turf Tiger. In the past i have'nt kept mowers very long, and buy looking at alot of posts on here alot more people don't hang on to them long either. We can go back and forth all day about what mower has what and what company has what etc,etc,etc. If I had to sell my Scag tomorrow with 250 hrs on it I would be able to get a great price for it. If you put 250 hrs on that Badboy and try to sell it your not going to get near the resale value as the Scag,,, period. So there is were Im going to get my money that you saved on your price points with the badboy back. Its 6 one way half a dozen the other. I pay more for my machine "so they say" at first but when its time for a new one I'm the one laughing all the way to the bank.
Its what makes the world go round. Different strokes from different folks. :waving:

nosparkplugs
10-24-2008, 10:50 AM
I no doubt also have one of the slowest snail mowers of them all the Walker MT GHS:laugh: The ability to mow at 15mph is still a whole new world for me, and the total benefit will not be apparent until next season, I suspect my production will increase tremendously, in the midsouth all grass types explode during the spring growing season, everyone around here struggles to keep, up regardless of the brand of ZTR. I feel we all needed the most HP you can afford on the ZTR frame for your application

Over the years I have always liked, and advocated the front mower design with a 60" deck, and the Walker's for residential, and commercial mowing. As I have grown over the years it became apparent that a midmount or FM larger frame LC diesel 72" deck was needed.

The Blade's we use, and my theory: we use a RGB 3/4hp blade sharperner, and carry multiple sets of razor sharp:laugh: baldes at all times 3 sets per ZTR, I do know that I could have the sharpest blades at all times, during the season, and that still will not compensate for lack of HP in the thickest of grass the only exception is the Walker GHS decks. With that said, I think the Big Block V-Twins are becoming a great new option for those not liking or needing the diesel engine, or liquid cooling. Their are some things I do miss about the Air Cooled engines their simple, and cheaper to replace, and require little overlooking during a day of mowing. But the negative's of the AC V-Twin are many also, IMO you really get no warning during mowing if their is a problem; because of the lack of true analog gauages, yes dummie lights comes on; However for me it was to late, I had blown a Kohler V-twin, and it happed instantly:cry:, their is no warning. I kept on purchasing Air cooled engines though up until this AOS diesel, will most likly always keep one Air cooled V-Twin though, their handy little engines to have on any ZTR. The fix I use Amsoils 15w-40 in the AC V-twins what a differance in operating temps, and increases the life of all the AC Kohlers I switched.

8 years ago I would never of imagined this type of engine power & Torque: BB gas, EFI or diesel would become a reality it was talked about . I do think with the right engine/ZTR/deck/blade setup, you can increase your cut quality as speeds increase. their is always something lost or gained in that formula.


The EZ-Ride system, and super ridged(zero play) deck hanging of the BB's does contribute to a better quality cut a higher speeds IMO, a loose hung deck "free chain hung deck" would be bouncing all over hell:laugh:. Take my Walker that deck really starts to bounce on wide area going at 6.5mph:laugh: it beats the crap out of the deck too. Does this mean the BB is the best no, but it does lay a quality cut at 15mph on the grass I have cut this week;however at 15mph a large rut or holes does increase the possibilty of deck scalping, IMO the EZ-Ride system allows the operator to not get physically beat up on this type of terrain.


Durning the "hay days" of this industry the contracts, and money flowed like water, today it's like honey, and the survival of the fittest applies, I'm friends with all the local dealers, and buy consumables from them all; however business is business I have found a perceived friendship does not equal a good discount on this equipment anymore, so to get beat up on dealer pricing, just to stay "loyal" with a certain manufacture is pure insanity, and bad business.

puppypaws
10-24-2008, 11:17 AM
Puppypaws, I would like to see a property after being mowed at 15 mph with any mower.

Also the reason the 72 might cut better than the 60 inch, is the blades are longer. It is my opinion that the longer the blade the better the cut will be.... 52 inch decks always seemed to do better than 48 inches, 61 inches better than 52, 72 better than 61, etc....

This was cut with a BB Lightning at 14 mph, and I do not consider this deck to be cutting as well as the new 72" I ran for 6 hrs. This is cutting an area of Buckhorn Plantain which is a weed no mower on the market will cut cleanly at 3 1/2" or higher at top speed. You can tell from the pictures mowing at 14 mph it is cut cleanly at a lower height of 2 3/4'. Every picture you see is mowed as fast as the mower was capable of moving.

There has been more than one person mowing with my Super Z at 15 mph that post in this forum and are willing say they could not believe it until they had the experience themselves. Mowers are capable of giving a good cut at 15 mph with lower cutting heights. They cannot give the same cut at 3 1/2" or above for a common sense reason at that high speed the deck does not have enough suction to hold the grass up straight to be cut cleanly.

There are mowers made to do a better job cutting small areas of manicured weed free grass at slow speeds. Then there are mowers that do a more productive job of cutting large areas at a very fast speed. I personally need the fastest most productive mower with the best ride and handling capabilities.

I do not get paid for cutting grass, it cost me several thousand dollars a year to maintain my personal property, therefore I am going to have the most productive mower for my situation. I have no need of a mower that is not capable of giving a good cut at 15 mph with a comfortable ride and there are very few that meet this criteria. The ones I am familiar with are the Dixie Chopper, which will cut at 15 mph but will not ride as well. The Hustler Super Z which gives an excellent cut at lower heights and rides extremely well with the flex forks and flex seat. Then you have the BB AOS which gives an excellent cut at lower heights and rides I would say better than anything on the market due to the suspension and extra weight.

I personally have no need for a better cut than you see here, which was done at 14 mph. The 15 mph machines would look no different in these pictures, but just think how much more you are getting done comfortably than with a rough riding machine at 12 mph.

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=84399&stc=1&d=1183828361

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=84398&stc=1&d=1183828319

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=84139&stc=1&d=1183560899

puppypaws
10-24-2008, 12:34 PM
The ability to mow at 15mph is still a whole new world for me, and the total benefit will not be apparent until next season, I suspect my production will increase tremendously, in the midsouth all grass types explode during the spring growing season, everyone around here struggles to keep, up regardless of the brand of ZTR. I feel we all needed the most HP you can afford on the ZTR frame for your application.

8 years ago I would never of imagined this type of engine power & Torque: BB gas, EFI or diesel would become a reality it was talked about . I do think with the right engine/ZTR/deck/blade setup, you can increase your cut quality as speeds increase. their is always something lost or gained in that formula.

Does this mean the BB is the best no, but it does lay a quality cut at 15mph on the grass I have cut this week;however at 15mph a large rut or holes does increase the possibilty of deck scalping, IMO the EZ-Ride system allows the operator to not get physically beat up on this type of terrain.



This is funny, the statement you made above is something I have been preaching for years. Would you happen to be one of those people that have argued with me in the past that you can't mow grass at 15 mph and do a good job? Go ahead and tell the truth, what were your actual thoughts on this subject until you experienced it for yourself?

You will really notice a difference in the spring lush growth, and it does not matter what mower you are comparing it against but as long as we are talking Scag TT let me tell you what could be seen.

You can take a 5 acre tall thick fast growing open property with heavy spring growth put a 72" highest hp Scag TT in production on one side of the property and your 35 Cat powered BB on the other side and start mowing toward each other. You will mow 3 acres of the five then sit there and wait for the TT to finish it's 2 acres. The 35 Cat will mow every inch of the property at 15 mph and not care how heavy the growth is, where as the TT will not be able to maintain it's full maximum speed of 12 mph.

If you are ever fortunate enough to have someone on a different make mower in the same conditions mowing close to you. I'll promise they will stop and watch trying to figure out how in the devil your mower can cut at that speed in those conditions, while they are struggling along at 8 to 10 mph.

Don't forget to answer my question about your past thoughts of mowing grass at 15 mph?

nosparkplugs
10-24-2008, 01:03 PM
Puppypaws,

Yep, I sure though the quality of the cut over 10mph would be nothing but a mess:laugh:
I do believe that you can have to much suspension travel on a ZTR; which results in the front of the mower dipping down. I do like that BB's design of the EZ-Ride system is not "mussy" feeling it gives me that old school "ridged" feel with the benefit of a 4 wheel suspension ride, BB hit this out of the park:clapping::clapping: that in combination with the tight hung deck system allows for the 15mph 72" quality cut on even rough/rutted terrian with minimal scalping that was no more than my JD F-680 FM or the Walker, also I have to compare it to the Scag Tiger Cubs; becuase I did use them on this account years ago, and it beat the crap out of you the velocity deck at 10mph would bounce all over, also the velocity plus 48" deck did leave windrows all the time at top speed worse with dulling blades, so I would have to go back double cut section. Even a underpowered jd f680 60 7-Iron deck would not leave windrows like the 48" velocity plus decks would, thats why i kept the JD F680 for over 8 years until, the BB AOS diesel purchase, it was my best cutting deck just slower, and underpowered. Thats why I can disagree on the Scags decks bulletproof quality cut in all grass type is totally false, sure wish I had taken pictures back then, and was a memeber of lawnsite too, cause this is going to get challanged again thats fine.

puppypaws
10-24-2008, 02:38 PM
Puppypaws,

Yep, I sure though the quality of the cut over 10mph would be nothing but a mess:laugh:
I do believe that you can have to much suspension travel on a ZTR; which results in the front of the mower dipping down. I do like that BB's design of the EZ-Ride system is not "mussy" feeling it gives me that old school "ridged" feel with the benefit of a 4 wheel suspension ride, BB hit this out of the park.



So, I am assuming you are saying that what "puppypaws" has been telling people for years is true about cutting grass at 15 mph and doing a very good job? Would you say this statement is accurate coming from a very staunch unbeliever until you experienced it yourself?

davidcalhoun
10-24-2008, 05:51 PM
Quick, call a medic. puppypaws might have dislocated his shoulder.

WREBELMACHINE
10-24-2008, 06:37 PM
So are we are afraid of pricing the BB's? I still have not seen any pricing yet on the diesel! I would like to compare the pricing to what is the most popular here in my area!

Mike Blevins
10-24-2008, 07:07 PM
So are we are afraid of pricing the BB's? I still have not seen any pricing yet on the diesel! I would like to compare the pricing to what is the most popular here in my area!

Starting with the lowest diesel which would be a 60" 28 hp diesel starts at $11,595 at the local dealer here.

dozerdogue
10-24-2008, 07:34 PM
I was quoted $11,835.00 for 35hp diesel w/60" deck here.

retrodog
10-24-2008, 07:58 PM
So are we are afraid of pricing the BB's? I still have not seen any pricing yet on the diesel! I would like to compare the pricing to what is the most popular here in my area!

28hp Cat 60" $11295, 72" $11696......35hp 60" $12195, 72" $12695.

puppypaws
10-24-2008, 08:05 PM
I was quoted $11,835.00 for 35hp diesel w/60" deck here.

That is one heck of a price, and a 72" would not be but a few hundred more.

You are looking at less than $13,000.00 for a 72" decked mower built as heavy or heavier than any on the market with a 35 hp Cat diesel engine and full 4 wheel suspension with a deluxe seat.

Now, what would the going price be for any other zero turn mower on the market with the same specs, anyone care to guess?

lawnprosteveo
10-24-2008, 08:27 PM
Wow...that thing is a beast. Congrats...hope you make lotsa cash with that Bad Boy!

WREBELMACHINE
10-24-2008, 08:46 PM
Ok pricing sounds pretty decent However what is dominate here is Dixie Chopper and your pricing is not much diffrent than there unit!

Mike Blevins
10-24-2008, 08:54 PM
That is one heck of a price, and a 72" would not be but a few hundred more.

You are looking at less than $13,000.00 for a 72" decked mower built as heavy or heavier than any on the market with a 35 hp Cat diesel engine and full 4 wheel suspension with a deluxe seat.

Now, what would the going price be for any other zero turn mower on the market with the same specs, anyone care to guess?

$11,835 is this a price for a mower with ROPS? when I looked the Rops were $595.00 in the spring. Also had to get the flat free front tires seperate also at $165.00. And read that the foot assist was a must have but it wasn't "standard" equipment from the dealer. It was specked at $374.00 for floorboard? foot pedal,etc. Which brings this price to a grand total of $12969. So when you do compare to other mowers where you get all of this "standard" on their mower there is a comparison. "Anyone care to guess" who has the best warranty policies?

dozerdogue
10-24-2008, 10:11 PM
$11,835 is this a price for a mower with ROPS? when I looked the Rops were $595.00 in the spring. Also had to get the flat free front tires seperate also at $165.00. And read that the foot assist was a must have but it wasn't "standard" equipment from the dealer. It was specked at $374.00 for floorboard? foot pedal,etc. Which brings this price to a grand total of $12969. So when you do compare to other mowers where you get all of this "standard" on their mower there is a comparison. "Anyone care to guess" who has the best warranty policies?

ROPS although a safety feature are one of the first things that go on my mowers. Did not have foot assist on my grasshopper so I won't miss it. Also flat free front tires are not standard on all mowers the 2 that come to mind that they are standard on is scag and kubota 300 series which I have. I'll tell you who has the best warranty policy and it isn't scag try husqvarna 5 year commercial bumper to bumper. I personally would not buy a husqvarna ZTR though.

Rons Rightway Lawncare
10-24-2008, 10:13 PM
I dropped of my chainsaw at the dealer today and spoke to the owner about pricing on the biggest Scag diesel he sells. He said roughly 14 grand for one. So about a grand or so more than the Badboy, but smaller engine apparently.

dozerdogue
10-24-2008, 10:21 PM
I looked at the scag diesel and seriously considered it. My dealer wanted $14750.00 but did not have one in stock so I demoed the 29DFI TT and wasn't overly impressed. I'm sure the 28hp cat diesel would have had more guts but did not want to take 15k chance. I ended up with a Kubota ZD331 60" and could not be happier.

mag360
10-24-2008, 10:27 PM
I looked at the scag diesel and seriously considered it. My dealer wanted $14750.00 but did not have one in stock so I demoed the 29DFI TT and wasn't overly impressed. I'm sure the 28hp cat diesel would have had more guts but did not want to take 15k chance. I ended up with a Kubota ZD331 60" and could not be happier.

I feel like kubota gets a little more oomph from their rated horsepower in the 3 cylinder diesels. The kubota 28 is unstoppable in comparison to the 28 cat, which was very unimpressive in a ferris we demoed. We have the 4 cylinder cat in an ASV rc-30 and it does pretty well given the application.

nosparkplugs
10-25-2008, 12:15 AM
There are lots of front mowers that DO NOT HAVE FOOT ASSIST, so the lack of the foot assist on the BB AOS diesel, for us front mower guys, going to a BB is a mute point. The last time I had the FA was on the Tiger Cub, and it never saved me from hitting anything. the electric lift on the BB is the cats meow, and requires zero effort to use or get use to.

nosparkplugs
10-25-2008, 12:21 AM
I feel like kubota gets a little more oomph from their rated horsepower in the 3 cylinder diesels. The kubota 28 is unstoppable in comparison to the 28 cat, which was very unimpressive in a ferris we demoed. We have the 4 cylinder cat in an ASV rc-30 and it does pretty well given the application.

The Kubota diesel's are no doubt, the king of the 3 bangers, but a 4 cylinder is always more balanced, and the Cat diesel has more torque. The ZD331 was my second choice in the week leading up to the AOS diesel purchase. The Kubota is a tank in the weight department, heavier than the AOS diesel, no 4 wheel suspension either.

retrodog
10-25-2008, 01:12 AM
$11,835 is this a price for a mower with ROPS? when I looked the Rops were $595.00 in the spring. Also had to get the flat free front tires seperate also at $165.00. And read that the foot assist was a must have but it wasn't "standard" equipment from the dealer. It was specked at $374.00 for floorboard? foot pedal,etc. Which brings this price to a grand total of $12969. So when you do compare to other mowers where you get all of this "standard" on their mower there is a comparison. "Anyone care to guess" who has the best warranty policies?

Rops are $495 (never had a customer order them, but ordered one for stock, and the customer that bought that mower didn't even want rops), the no-flats have come on all the diesels I've ordered lately at no extra cost(not sure if its standard, forgot to ask the factory), and the foot assist I would highly recommend not putting on the diesel (the factory doesn't either), the deck lift is fast enough, and if ordered on the smaller mowers from the factory its a $179 option.

TLS
10-25-2008, 05:24 AM
The foot assist has nothing to do with speed. It has to do with feel. The ability to feather over or up to raised areas.

My last front mounted deck (JD F-935) had proportional hydraulic lift. It would have been totally unusable without it. I feel as though you have to be able to raise and lower a deck over raised areas. (this is what keeps me from using a stander)

puppypaws
10-25-2008, 06:52 AM
Rops are $495 (never had a customer order them, but ordered one for stock, and the customer that bought that mower didn't even want rops), the no-flats have come on all the diesels I've ordered lately at no extra cost(not sure if its standard, forgot to ask the factory), and the foot assist I would highly recommend not putting on the diesel (the factory doesn't either), the deck lift is fast enough, and if ordered on the smaller mowers from the factory its a $179 option.

From my understanding BB has not engineered the foot assist to be installed period on the AOS diesel, it will not fit because of the front weight setup.

The gas model AOS yes, the diesel no, is this your same understanding?

puppypaws
10-25-2008, 07:03 AM
I feel like kubota gets a little more oomph from their rated horsepower in the 3 cylinder diesels. The kubota 28 is unstoppable in comparison to the 28 cat, which was very unimpressive in a ferris we demoed. We have the 4 cylinder cat in an ASV rc-30 and it does pretty well given the application.

There is a tremendous difference in this ASV RC-30 and a zero turn mower as for power needs. If the power is mediocre on a skid steer it would be unstoppable on a zero turn mower.

http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/pict/2202958332498080_1.jpg

I dropped of my chainsaw at the dealer today and spoke to the owner about pricing on the biggest Scag diesel he sells. He said roughly 14 grand for one. So about a grand or so more than the Badboy, but smaller engine apparently.

The difference of $2000.00 would not be out of reason for the performance difference in the 28 Cat versus the 4 cylinder 35 hp Cat. You could make up the difference in time and money very quickly between the 28 and 35 on a 72" deck. The 35 Vanguard is stronger by far than the 28 Cat, the 28 Cat is a very disappointing engine on a 72" deck.

Rons Rightway Lawncare
10-25-2008, 09:58 AM
You know what is sad, is unless we run out of oil or the greedy oil industry jacks the prices to 10$ a gallon for the stuff.... I predict that in 5-10 year from now people will talk about how 35 hp on a 61-72 inch mower is grossly underpowered and how they would not even consider something with less than 45-60 HP.

It is just like trucks.... my old 2001 Dodge Ram diesel had somewhere around 215 HP and around 400 lbs of torque. It was powerful and got the job done just fine, did okay on economy too. Now most people wouldn't even consider any truck at all with less than 300 HP, Not even 1/2 ton truck buyers. And the Diesel junkies would not consider a truck with less than 550-600 lbs of twist, anything less would be underpowered!!!!

I sure would like to see what some of you guys are mowing to consider some of todays mowers underpowered....

I remember when I lived in southwest Florida for 2 years and did lawn service there, most of the guys there ran Diesel powered Grasshopper mowers, and they mulched, these were 52 inch and 60 inch decks. They seemed just fine and the grass there is very thick! I believe those grasshoppers had about 20hp on them.

I am running a 23 hp Vanguard on a 61 inch Scag and have no problems in any of the normal conditions I use the mower in. Sure it will loose some rpm trying to mow grass that hasn't been mowed in 2 months, but that is grass that should be bush hogged to start with anyway. The mower would bog slightly last month when I was mowing.... while pulling the large Bluebird towable core aerator. But I would expect even a 35 hp engine to have bogged some with this load.

Anyway, have at it power junkies. I feel like 28 hp should be plenty. And I know that it takes fuel being burned to make hp and with todays operating costs being dominated by the monthly fuel bill I would gladly take a few less hp to save some bucks.

MONTE
10-25-2008, 09:41 PM
I agree rebel the prices are good but not good enough to take a chance on one for me! Especially with no dealer support! I will probably be getting a new Chopper diesel this spring unless something else pops up to look at!

puppypaws
10-25-2008, 09:49 PM
I agree rebel the prices are good but not good enough to take a chance on one for me! Especially with no dealer support! I will probably be getting a new Chopper diesel this spring unless something else pops up to look at!

That is odd there would be no dealers for a mower built in your neighboring state.:confused:

MONTE
10-25-2008, 10:33 PM
Look at all the brands built in kansas another neighbor state until recently there was no hustler! There is no dixon no zipper no deines!

Mike Blevins
10-26-2008, 09:36 AM
ROPS although a safety feature are one of the first things that go on my mowers. Did not have foot assist on my grasshopper so I won't miss it. Also flat free front tires are not standard on all mowers the 2 that come to mind that they are standard on is scag and kubota 300 series which I have. I'll tell you who has the best warranty policy and it isn't scag try husqvarna 5 year commercial bumper to bumper. I personally would not buy a husqvarna ZTR though.

It wasn't a post to say Scag has the best warranty. It was a post to compare some "standard" options to the Badboy line and warranty info of these two companies. Just trying to keep that great debate over Scag and Badboy alive and thriving. LOL. My point was if I go to my Scag dealer and get a price quote and then go to the local badboy dealer and get a price on a "comparible mower" with the same options you have to add these options that are already on the Scag. And doing this the Badboy isn't any cheaper here and has a 1 year less warranty than the Scag. 2 years on certain things. As i read throught these post i have been corrected on prices from retrodog but I guess its like Scags are different prices in different areas these prices come straight from the local dealer also. Also I know that you don't need a foot assist or flat free tires just an example of standard options not offered as standard on other mowers. My mower didn't come with a diesel engine or rear spoiler installed either but I didn't think I needed one. :usflag:

retrodog
10-26-2008, 10:32 AM
That is odd there would be no dealers for a mower built in your neighboring state.:confused:

There are 22 dealers in MO right now, surely there is one within 30 miles of anyone in that state.....

retrodog
10-26-2008, 10:47 AM
It wasn't a post to say Scag has the best warranty. It was a post to compare some "standard" options to the Badboy line and warranty info of these two companies. Just trying to keep that great debate over Scag and Badboy alive and thriving. LOL. My point was if I go to my Scag dealer and get a price quote and then go to the local badboy dealer and get a price on a "comparible mower" with the same options you have to add these options that are already on the Scag. And doing this the Badboy isn't any cheaper here and has a 1 year less warranty than the Scag. 2 years on certain things. As i read throught these post i have been corrected on prices from retrodog but I guess its like Scags are different prices in different areas these prices come straight from the local dealer also. Also I know that you don't need a foot assist or flat free tires just an example of standard options not offered as standard on other mowers. My mower didn't come with a diesel engine or rear spoiler installed either but I didn't think I needed one. :usflag:

I think if you brought the retail prices of the BB to your dealer he would match them to get a sale. So, lets take a BB AOS 28hp Cat, add the ROPS and a 5 year warranty from failsafe (they take care of everything but tax and fluids). $11295 plus $495 for rops plus $1090.58 for the warranty. So for a grand total of $12880.58 you can walk away with the BB, or get the TT for $14880 roughly, get a 5 year warranty (not including blades, battery, belts), and a nice engine and save around $2000!!. Or take the new Turf Tiger 26hp LC, a guy in Memphis was just quoted nearly $13000 for a new one. You can get the horizontal shaft 27hp LC Kawasaki (alot better engine) BB AOS, 15mph, 18 gallon tanks, 16cc pumps (very smooth), easy ride, with the foot assist, 5 year failsafe and the rops bar for $10344 retail. How about a 31hp kawasaki pup 60" with rops, no flats, 5 year failsafe warranty and foot assist.......$8870 retail, the prices are still cheaper, and you get faster more productive mowers with a heck of alot better warranty, and the same options(we have really good luck with failsafe). If you did get down and dirty and wanted to try a BB Mike, I will visit with your dealer and try to help you out on the pricing issue, also I would give him the failsafe info in case he doesn't offer it, if you simply printed out the retail pricing, and took it to your dealer, I am sure there is not any reason why he wouldn't honor it. He probably charges set-up and destination, but it can't be but $150 to around $400 surely. Oh and rear spoiler is $149, if you can't resist.......lol

nosparkplugs
10-26-2008, 11:08 AM
It wasn't a post to say Scag has the best warranty. It was a post to compare some "standard" options to the Badboy line and warranty info of these two companies. Just trying to keep that great debate over Scag and Badboy alive and thriving. LOL. My point was if I go to my Scag dealer and get a price quote and then go to the local badboy dealer and get a price on a "comparible mower" with the same options you have to add these options that are already on the Scag. And doing this the Badboy isn't any cheaper here and has a 1 year less warranty than the Scag. 2 years on certain things. As i read throught these post i have been corrected on prices from retrodog but I guess its like Scags are different prices in different areas these prices come straight from the local dealer also. Also I know that you don't need a foot assist or flat free tires just an example of standard options not offered as standard on other mowers. My mower didn't come with a diesel engine or rear spoiler installed either but I didn't think I needed one. :usflag:

Mike, If you have been truly reading these posts, and not have the "SCAG blinders on"? you would see the overwhelming trend that Scag is overpricing their machines, and priced their self's out of my business, other buyers are following. SCAG has allowed dealers to become arrogant. If Scag is so superior? then a Scag should sell itself, and therefore a humble approach is all that is required to seal a deal now?

Michigan Suspension seat with 5-15 degree lumbar tilt, EZ-Ride 4 wheel independent suspension system, electric deck lift. is Standard on all AOS or Lightning models. Engines Bad Boy has the widest range, air or liquid cooling gas or diesel, and highest HP. BB gives you the option of liquid cooling on models that Scag currently only offers air cooled.

The only 2 option that I could see some one possibly needing or wanting is the Foot Assist option on the Bad Boy. Many have posted that the FA option on any mower would not be a determining factor. However the Electric lift deck was a positive improvement over the FA.

(ROPS) While Bad Boy is the only company on my short list. to not include the ROPS standard, This is my first large frame ZTR purchase, and I am glad now i don't have the ROPS. My short list included the Kubota ZD331, and JD 997; which both had the ROPS listed as standard equipment. I now suspect I would be taking the ROPS off had i opted for one of those models.

Scag perceived "strangle hold", is kept alive buy it's owners/supporters. Mike your preaching guaranteed highest resale values? which are buy no means SCAG factory supported, that is stated clearly on Scag Corporate website for all to read. Scag Corporate hopes all owners think this, and you have bought into it, and preach it. Your a great Scag supporter, and i have become a recent BB supporter, who use to support Scag. Locally i'm one of the few guys operating the AOS diesel (i suspect). In my last week I have had more buddies in the business call me up wanting to demo my BB, and some have run Scags, some Hustler, some grasshopper, some John deere. We all like good mowers, and BB is making a great top of the food chain mower in the AOS line, the BUZZ has started here in Memphis with one AOS diesel:laugh:

Scag makes a super strong, tough mower, and the velocity decks are excellent; but when you have a underpowered Scag TT 28hp Cat diesel selling for 16K:dizzy: well above all others in price WTF is that.

ALC-GregH
10-26-2008, 11:12 AM
Is the spoiler going to make me more money?

nosparkplugs
10-26-2008, 11:42 AM
Is the spoiler going to make me more money?
:laugh::laugh: Nope I guess some guys think the spoiler makes their BB or Hustler go faster. Thats cosmetic, waste of money in my opinion.

Never understood cupholders on equipment either; furthermore to think some would pay extra for a "optional" cupholder or spoiler:dizzy:

puppypaws
10-26-2008, 12:23 PM
I agree rebel the prices are good but not good enough to take a chance on one for me! Especially with no dealer support! I will probably be getting a new Chopper diesel this spring unless something else pops up to look at!

There are 22 dealers in MO right now, surely there is one within 30 miles of anyone in that state.....

Now, where did this no dealer support for BB in Missiouri come from?

Mike Blevins
10-26-2008, 02:29 PM
Mike, If you have been truly reading these posts, and not have the "SCAG blinders on"? you would see the overwhelming trend that Scag is overpricing their machines, and priced their self's out of my business, other buyers are following. SCAG has allowed dealers to become arrogant. If Scag is so superior? then a Scag should sell itself, and therefore a humble approach is all that is required to seal a deal now?

Michigan Suspension seat with 5-15 degree lumbar tilt, EZ-Ride 4 wheel independent suspension system, electric deck lift. is Standard on all AOS or Lightning models. Engines Bad Boy has the widest range, air or liquid cooling gas or diesel, and highest HP. BB gives you the option of liquid cooling on models that Scag currently only offers air cooled.

The only 2 option that I could see some one possibly needing or wanting is the Foot Assist option on the Bad Boy. Many have posted that the FA option on any mower would not be a determining factor. However the Electric lift deck was a positive improvement over the FA.

(ROPS) While Bad Boy is the only company on my short list. to not include the ROPS standard, This is my first large frame ZTR purchase, and I am glad now i don't have the ROPS. My short list included the Kubota ZD331, and JD 997; which both had the ROPS listed as standard equipment. I now suspect I would be taking the ROPS off had i opted for one of those models.

Scag perceived "strangle hold", is kept alive buy it's owners/supporters. Mike your preaching guaranteed highest resale values? which are buy no means SCAG factory supported, that is stated clearly on Scag Corporate website for all to read. Scag Corporate hopes all owners think this, and you have bought into it, and preach it. Your a great Scag supporter, and i have become a recent BB supporter, who use to support Scag. Locally i'm one of the few guys operating the AOS diesel (i suspect). In my last week I have had more buddies in the business call me up wanting to demo my BB, and some have run Scags, some Hustler, some grasshopper, some John deere. We all like good mowers, and BB is making a great top of the food chain mower in the AOS line, the BUZZ has started here in Memphis with one AOS diesel:laugh:

Scag makes a super strong, tough mower, and the velocity decks are excellent; but when you have a underpowered Scag TT 28hp Cat diesel selling for 16K:dizzy: well above all others in price WTF is that.

Luckily, the Scag overpricing hasn't got here yet. Not saying it won't get here but still pretty competitive now. With some of the other dealers like Exmark and grasshopper being the ones that are pricey here (You don't enen want to look at Deere). If the pricing gets to what it is where you live then i will have to consider a cheaper mower. But for now with the Scag pricing here I will continue to work with the Scags. They have been bullet proof machines for me just to let them go for a few hunded dollars. When it gets to thousands like yourself then I might give it a look. Hey Retro I am glad I don't buy my Scag from the dealer near you with those prices. :dizzy: If I lived near you I would definatley have to look at a different mower.

nosparkplugs
10-26-2008, 02:57 PM
Luckily, the Scag overpricing hasn't got here yet. Not saying it won't get here but still pretty competitive now. With some of the other dealers like Exmark and grasshopper being the ones that are pricey here (You don't enen want to look at Deere). If the pricing gets to what it is where you live then i will have to consider a cheaper mower. But for now with the Scag pricing here I will continue to work with the Scags. They have been bullet proof machines for me just to let them go for a few hunded dollars. When it gets to thousands like yourself then I might give it a look. Hey Retro I am glad I don't buy my Scag from the dealer near you with those prices. :dizzy: If I lived near you I would definatley have to look at a different mower.

This economy has changed how I purchase equipment, and do business, gone are the days of "guaranteed' equipment brand loyalty; regardless of price. and many business owners agree. This is not isolated to one company, i just compared the best diesels, Scag was on the list, and the absolute most expensive.

The JD 997 in Memphis was 13K base machine, without a suspension seat?, and the huge fiberglass engine cover, lots of nice looking green paint, but exposed to damage. IMO would require the optional engine guard at $450 or more:confused: bring the total to 14K & change with tax. Locally JD has realized their loosing market share, and have gotten their ZTR prices in check.

Frontier-Lawn
10-26-2008, 03:07 PM
Probly weighs a ton thou, but nice looking mower.

Mike Blevins
10-26-2008, 04:36 PM
This economy has changed how I purchase equipment, and do business, gone are the days of "guaranteed' equipment brand loyalty; regardless of price. and many business owners agree. This is not isolated to one company, i just compared the best diesels, Scag was on the list, and the absolute most expensive.

The JD 997 in Memphis was 13K base machine, without a suspension seat?, and the huge fiberglass engine cover, lots of nice looking green paint, but exposed to damage. IMO would require the optional engine guard at $450 or more:confused: bring the total to 14K & change with tax. Locally JD has realized their loosing market share, and have gotten their ZTR prices in check.

The economy is changing my way of thinking also. That price on that Deere here would be about 15 thousand here without the engine guard. Deere is one of the priciest machines here. And the service isn't even close. It is amazing to me how different prices on different mowers vary from place to place. :dizzy:Do you own any walk-behind mowers?

Happy Frog
10-26-2008, 04:53 PM
Some prefer Scag over other mowers but I would not replace my Lightning with a Wildcat even if it was the same price... :rolleyes:

Mike Blevins
10-26-2008, 06:49 PM
Some prefer Scag over other mowers but I would not replace my Lightning with a Wildcat even if it was the same price... :rolleyes:

Thats what makes the world go round. I miss the hell out of my Wildcat sometimes. I would recommend a Wildcat to anyone. The 52" 26 liquid cooled kaw. is a bulletproof combo. And is ideal for the terrain and lawns in this area. Very easy to operate.

retrodog
10-26-2008, 07:05 PM
Probly weighs a ton thou, but nice looking mower.

1550lbs dry

nosparkplugs
10-26-2008, 08:30 PM
The economy is changing my way of thinking also. That price on that Deere here would be about 15 thousand here without the engine guard. Deere is one of the priciest machines here. And the service isn't even close. It is amazing to me how different prices on different mowers vary from place to place. :dizzy:Do you own any walk-behind mowers?

I have one trusty 2003 JD GS30 13hp OHV 1 banger Kohler:laugh: 36" & JJ sulky that I keep just for the hell of it, and it has more dust on it from sitting around than anything else:laugh:. Paid $1.750 for it years ago.

Rons Rightway Lawncare
10-26-2008, 09:29 PM
Mike, If you have been truly reading these posts, and not have the "SCAG blinders on"? you would see the overwhelming trend that Scag is overpricing their machines, and priced their self's out of my business, other buyers are following. SCAG has allowed dealers to become arrogant. If Scag is so superior? then a Scag should sell itself, and therefore a humble approach is all that is required to seal a deal now?

Michigan Suspension seat with 5-15 degree lumbar tilt, EZ-Ride 4 wheel independent suspension system, electric deck lift. is Standard on all AOS or Lightning models. Engines Bad Boy has the widest range, air or liquid cooling gas or diesel, and highest HP. BB gives you the option of liquid cooling on models that Scag currently only offers air cooled.

The only 2 option that I could see some one possibly needing or wanting is the Foot Assist option on the Bad Boy. Many have posted that the FA option on any mower would not be a determining factor. However the Electric lift deck was a positive improvement over the FA.

(ROPS) While Bad Boy is the only company on my short list. to not include the ROPS standard, This is my first large frame ZTR purchase, and I am glad now i don't have the ROPS. My short list included the Kubota ZD331, and JD 997; which both had the ROPS listed as standard equipment. I now suspect I would be taking the ROPS off had i opted for one of those models.

Scag perceived "strangle hold", is kept alive buy it's owners/supporters. Mike your preaching guaranteed highest resale values? which are buy no means SCAG factory supported, that is stated clearly on Scag Corporate website for all to read. Scag Corporate hopes all owners think this, and you have bought into it, and preach it. Your a great Scag supporter, and i have become a recent BB supporter, who use to support Scag. Locally i'm one of the few guys operating the AOS diesel (i suspect). In my last week I have had more buddies in the business call me up wanting to demo my BB, and some have run Scags, some Hustler, some grasshopper, some John deere. We all like good mowers, and BB is making a great top of the food chain mower in the AOS line, the BUZZ has started here in Memphis with one AOS diesel:laugh:

Scag makes a super strong, tough mower, and the velocity decks are excellent; but when you have a underpowered Scag TT 28hp Cat diesel selling for 16K:dizzy: well above all others in price WTF is that.

My dealer quoted a price of 14,000$ for the Scag TT 28 horse diesel. Not 16,000$.....

Scag mowers are overpriced....? I almost crapped my pants when I was quoted pricing on some Walker mowers. Tell me how and why these are what they cost.

Do you honestly believe Badboy will still be thousands less than other leading manufactors when and if Badboy is selling as many machines as the others? The way I see it, they are trying to earn sales and using the lower price approach to earn sales. Let's face it, there is no way these mowers cost that much to make, there has to be healthy profit in building commercial mowers, they are just willing to take less profit in order to have at least a edge over the other guys in the price dept.

In our industry we would be giving them a hard time and calling them a lowballer.....


In the smaller units, the price advantage for Badboy is less dramatic too.

Bottom line is most mowers sold today are all good mowers. Most use the same engines, same hydro systems, same belts, simular spindles, simular grades of steel, same wheels and tires, etc.... etc..... The difference in one mower over the other is in the small details, Things like how the deck is hung ( chains, links, front or rear supports ) , what the idler arms ride on ( bushings, bearings, greaseable or not ) etc..... Some mowers are clearly well engineered, others look like less time was spent on the fine details. Good thing for all involved in this thread is in my opinion, both the Badboy and the Scag seemed well engineered, neither is a loser in my mind.

mowerconsultant
10-26-2008, 09:51 PM
:laugh::laugh: Nope I guess some guys think the spoiler makes their BB or Hustler go faster. Thats cosmetic, waste of money in my opinion.


The rear spoiler on a Super Z is actually the mounting for the hydro coolers, fan and air filter, certainly not a waste of money.

Pj

MJB
10-27-2008, 12:11 AM
I use the spoiler on my Hustler on those big long 15mph striping turns, and zig zags stripes. The downforce keeps me from getting airborn when I go off some of the jumps... I mean bumps ...in the lawn, and also keeps me from spinning out....:rolleyes:

Go Nascar !

mag360
10-27-2008, 12:53 AM
I think if you brought the retail prices of the BB to your dealer he would match them to get a sale. So, lets take a BB AOS 28hp Cat, add the ROPS and a 5 year warranty from failsafe (they take care of everything but tax and fluids). $11295 plus $495 for rops plus $1090.58 for the warranty. So for a grand total of $12880.58 you can walk away with the BB, or get the TT for $14880 roughly, get a 5 year warranty (not including blades, battery, belts), and a nice engine and save around $2000!!. Or take the new Turf Tiger 26hp LC, a guy in Memphis was just quoted nearly $13000 for a new one. You can get the horizontal shaft 27hp LC Kawasaki (alot better engine) BB AOS, 15mph, 18 gallon tanks, 16cc pumps (very smooth), easy ride, with the foot assist, 5 year failsafe and the rops bar for $10344 retail. How about a 31hp kawasaki pup 60" with rops, no flats, 5 year failsafe warranty and foot assist.......$8870 retail, the prices are still cheaper, and you get faster more productive mowers with a heck of alot better warranty, and the same options(we have really good luck with failsafe). If you did get down and dirty and wanted to try a BB Mike, I will visit with your dealer and try to help you out on the pricing issue, also I would give him the failsafe info in case he doesn't offer it, if you simply printed out the retail pricing, and took it to your dealer, I am sure there is not any reason why he wouldn't honor it. He probably charges set-up and destination, but it can't be but $150 to around $400 surely. Oh and rear spoiler is $149, if you can't resist.......lol

The 26 kawi is only available on the wildcat---for mid to upper $8,000's (albeit with a 10 mph top speed). The 27 kawi liquid cooled turf tiger was priced in the mid 9,000's but I'm not sure if they've kept this model in the lineup for '09.
The 31 kawi pup is the 7mph model right? Cub cadet sells their 31 kawi 60 inch tank (12 mph, 12cc pumps) for $8499 with only the standard warrantee.
You can find deals with many of the big brands out there but BadBoy certainly has one of the lower average prices out there.

dozerdogue
10-27-2008, 09:00 AM
The 26 kawi is only available on the wildcat---for mid to upper $8,000's (albeit with a 10 mph top speed). The 27 kawi liquid cooled turf tiger was priced in the mid 9,000's but I'm not sure if they've kept this model in the lineup for '09.
The 31 kawi pup is the 7mph model right? Cub cadet sells their 31 kawi 60 inch tank (12 mph, 12cc pumps) for $8499 with only the standard warrantee.
You can find deals with many of the big brands out there but BadBoy certainly has one of the lower average prices out there.

The 31 Kawasaki on the pup has a top speed of 14mph.

retrodog
10-27-2008, 09:42 AM
The 26 kawi is only available on the wildcat---for mid to upper $8,000's (albeit with a 10 mph top speed). The 27 kawi liquid cooled turf tiger was priced in the mid 9,000's but I'm not sure if they've kept this model in the lineup for '09.
The 31 kawi pup is the 7mph model right? Cub cadet sells their 31 kawi 60 inch tank (12 mph, 12cc pumps) for $8499 with only the standard warrantee.
You can find deals with many of the big brands out there but BadBoy certainly has one of the lower average prices out there.

The prices quoted were for the 5 year extended failsafe warranty (9.25%), the $495 Rops (which most everyone takes off anyways, I have only sold one, I say save your $500), with the optional foot assist $179. The 31hp kawasaki 60" pup actually retails for $7295. The 7mph unit is the zt series with the 27hp kohler 60" for $4995 retail. The 27hp lc kawasaki retails for $8795, and I promise the Scag is well over $10000 unless its a used unit or a demo. It has to still be available because a customer just came back from the dealership with nearly $13000 quote.

RoyalTree
10-27-2008, 09:57 AM
Ok I have been paying attention to this thread for a while now as i am in the process of buying my new mower and looking at both bad boy and scag. I have a dealer with a aos 35hp bb diesel for 10900. It is a 60" with 40 hours on it, first owner didnt like it and returned it for a dixie diesel. The other is a 61" turf tiger with the 29 hp kawi for 11200.

After having tried them both I am defenitly leaning for the scag due to quality of cut and what seems like is going to give me the least problems over time. I run cats in my trucks and love them but I dont know if it is the best fit for the mower. Bigger isnt always better.

mag360
10-27-2008, 11:09 AM
The prices quoted were for the 5 year extended failsafe warranty (9.25%), the $495 Rops (which most everyone takes off anyways, I have only sold one, I say save your $500), with the optional foot assist $179. The 31hp kawasaki 60" pup actually retails for $7295. The 7mph unit is the zt series with the 27hp kohler 60" for $4995 retail. The 27hp lc kawasaki retails for $8795, and I promise the Scag is well over $10000 unless its a used unit or a demo. It has to still be available because a customer just came back from the dealership with nearly $13000 quote.

That's a good price then on the pup---I knew there was a line that ran the lower top speed. Pups run 14mph?

I completely agree with you on the ROPS.

Is it possible the quote on that scag was for a mower and collection system?
The Turf Tigers with the 27 kohler or the 27 lq kawi have non-suspension seats and use the same pumps and wheel motors as the wildcat with a 10 mph or so top speed. They are priced lower than the other models (in the $9,000's). We actually have an '07 with the kohler and have had trouble with the hydro gear wheel motors (seals leaking and now horrible feel and lack of control), so I don't want to claim these particular model as the kings of commercial riders. I thought the 35 vanguard models were available in the 10-11,000 range. I know the kubota diesel model can be had up here for $11,800 and for as low as $10,900 in other areas.

Backhoe Man
10-27-2008, 11:24 AM
Wildcat use smaller pumps than the turf tiger. 10cc on the WC, and 16cc on the TT. BH///////

puppypaws
10-27-2008, 07:52 PM
The prices quoted were for the 5 year extended failsafe warranty (9.25%), the $495 Rops (which most everyone takes off anyways, I have only sold one, I say save your $500), with the optional foot assist $179. The 31hp kawasaki 60" pup actually retails for $7295. The 7mph unit is the zt series with the 27hp kohler 60" for $4995 retail. The 27hp lc kawasaki retails for $8795, and I promise the Scag is well over $10000 unless its a used unit or a demo. It has to still be available because a customer just came back from the dealership with nearly $13000 quote.

How are they getting 14 mph out of the 31 Kawi powered pup?

With no suspension it would probably beat your brains out at that speed. I'm not sure you could utilize that much speed on a rigid mower.

Jerry Lee
10-27-2008, 08:25 PM
man ive got an 08 BB 52" liquid cooled kawasaki, and its a heck of a machine. i tried out that mower that u bought and its a 'brush hog" no joke! i was mowing through 2 foot of wet grass and it didnt even phase the power to the deck! Impressive! im proud of what BB has done with the industry.

Green King
10-27-2008, 08:28 PM
currious but what have they done?

Jerry Lee
10-27-2008, 09:31 PM
well they may not have re invented the wheel or anything. but i think that strapping a powerful power plant like a CAT to a great built mower and frame is a great idea. and the price u pay for the machine, its just more bang for ur buck!

BarrFarms
10-27-2008, 10:02 PM
Ahh man there's no way it'll out mow a walker. lol. It's a great machine from a great company but as soon as I unloaded a midmount, id be out of an account quick.

MJB
10-27-2008, 10:08 PM
Ahh man there's no way it'll out mow a walker. lol. It's a great machine from a great company but as soon as I unloaded a midmount, id be out of an account quick.

Walkers are for bagging, he did not buy the BB to bag smaller lawns. He already uses Walker so obviously he need a fast midmount that will work where the Walker doesn't. They are totally different animals for different applications. Having midmounts like the BB opens other doors, there is more than 1 way to make a buck...right.:)

GravelyGuy
10-27-2008, 10:10 PM
You Walker guys have spoiled your customers. I can't imagine bagging everything. What a pain!

The clippings just dry up to nothing once the sun hits them.

nosparkplugs
10-27-2008, 10:52 PM
Sometimes I think we tend to have "selective hearing or reading" me included:laugh:

Guys I still am using my Walker on all my residential accounts. This BB AOS diesel will not replace the Walker ever:laugh:, nor can the Walker replace the AOS diesel. I feel running the Walkers & BB AOS Diesel combined give me a huge advantage in the Memphis market, both lay down a quality cut, and do their specific jobs very well.

I do miles of right of way mowing for a local pipe line, and have many large 10+ acre accounts, church's, athletic fields. It was time for a large frame Diesel.

Professional Cut Lawncare
10-27-2008, 10:54 PM
Hey nosparkplugs can you get us a pic of the underside of the deck just like to see how the baffles are.Congrats very nice mower.

nosparkplugs
10-27-2008, 10:54 PM
Walkers are for bagging, he did not buy the BB to bag smaller lawns. He already uses Walker so obviously he need a fast midmount that will work where the Walker doesn't. They are totally different animals for different applications. Having midmounts like the BB opens other doors, there is more than 1 way to make a buck...right.:)

:laugh::laugh: thank you for knowing how I run my business, your ok MJB:clapping:

chrisduryea
10-28-2008, 04:35 AM
The optional Spoiler on the BB Lightning and Pup series has 2 purposes it looks good. But most importantly it protects the Air Clearner from being cleaned up by tree limbs. As the air cooled motors have the donaldson filters which are quite vulnerable sitting up there. So it is not just for show.

Chris

puppypaws
10-28-2008, 07:45 AM
Sometimes I think we tend to have "selective hearing or reading" me included:laugh:

Guys I still am using my Walker on all my residential accounts. This BB AOS diesel will not replace the Walker ever:laugh:, nor can the Walker replace the AOS diesel. I feel running the Walkers & BB AOS Diesel combined give me a huge advantage in the Memphis market, both lay down a quality cut, and do their specific jobs very well.

I do miles of right of way mowing for a local pipe line, and have many large 10+ acre accounts, church's, athletic fields. It was time for a large frame Diesel.

I can say one thing, your Tennessee pipeline R/W's sure are better than the ones in NC. I have never seen a zero turn mower on a pipeline R/W in NC, they are just not left anywhere close to conditions that anything but a rotary type (Bush Hog name brand) can be used. Your area probably does not have near the amount of rock; we do, this is a big problem on sewer, water, power and gas line R/W's in this area.

I once surveyed for a living and have been on many miles of all types of existing R/W's, I have never seen one in NC or SC that a zero turn mower could be used on. The power companies in NC use tremendous machines (hauled on a lowboy trailer) with front mounted rotary type cutters. The rest of the R/W cutting is done by heavy duty tractor mounted rotary cutters, and I am talking heavy duty.

Post some pictures of the R/W's you are cutting with a zero turn mower. That would be a wonderful job, you just get out there and mow with nothing to worry about. This is where the big, fast 35 hp BB AOS will outshine all other zero turn mowers. I can just see it now when you pull up, and it takes a look at the work it is going to do. The big orange mean machine is on the trailer spinning it's wheels wanting to get turned loose in those long runs of grass. That is the kind of mowing; I love, get on a good R/W, pull the bridle off that horse and turn him loose, not even thinking about all the money the big mower can make with it's speed and durability.

That is a mind relaxing situation, kind of like when I am running big farm machinery in open fields. No people to worry with and no aggravating obstacles and specific ways things have to be mowed as with the home owner or business accounts.

retrodog
10-28-2008, 09:29 AM
How are they getting 14 mph out of the 31 Kawi powered pup?

With no suspension it would probably beat your brains out at that speed. I'm not sure you could utilize that much speed on a rigid mower.

I don't know that for sure yet, heard alot of people say the 31hp has the faster system on it, I am going to order one on my next order just to check it out (with the michigan seat upgrade of course). Normally the regular Pups have the 10mph speed, but they might have turned it up to compensate having that size of a power plant. The pup is the only Bad Boy that will fit sideways on my trailer (due to the suspension), so that will make a perfect third mower to throw on my landscaping trailer for demoes and a backup.

puppypaws
10-28-2008, 01:30 PM
I don't know that for sure yet, heard alot of people say the 31hp has the faster system on it, I am going to order one on my next order just to check it out (with the michigan seat upgrade of course). Normally the regular Pups have the 10mph speed, but they might have turned it up to compensate having that size of a power plant. The pup is the only Bad Boy that will fit sideways on my trailer (due to the suspension), so that will make a perfect third mower to throw on my landscaping trailer for demoes and a backup.

Bad Boy is not getting 14 mph out of the 31 Kawi powered pup this is a misprint according to BB themselves. I saw no way possible to get 4 mph more speed with the only change being the engine on a zero turn mower, and I was correct. The BB Pup is a 10 mph mower; same as it always has been.