Northern guys

[BLC1]

When you do usually put down last application. It has been in the low 50's during the day and low 30's at night and i still see guys out. When does it get to late for you guys to put down last application?

[heritage]

When you do usually put down last application. It has been in the low 50's during the day and low 30's at night and i still see guys out. When does it get to late for you guys to put down last application?

You can begin "Late Season Fertilization" when the hard frost has hit and go until late novenber early december, or until ground is Frozen.

All Mineral (no slow release) Nitrogen like Gran Urea and also Potassium are what I like for LSF.

You will have an earlier greenup next spring and will just need a Pre-Emerge for app #1 on a carrier like 0-0-7 OR liquid if you are a liquid app applicator.

Hope that helps,
Pete

[RigglePLC]

When my spreader gets stuck in the snow. Soil remains warmer than the air for several weeks. Some authorities suggest winter feeding shoud be after the last mowing--or sometimes after the first frost.

[Smallaxe]

I put down synthetic fert on a deficient lawn Oct. 3 here in Central Wisco., Zone 4. Grass greened up before the end of the month.
Same year I put down synfert Oct. 22nd with no apperant results. Though the ground was NOT frozen for alot more than 2 - 3 weeks after the late app.

Do your own test for your area. They SAY that synferts are being used for root storage, even though the grass will not turn greener.

The question is - Where does the plant get its energy to convert synferts into carbohydrates, then store it in the root??
If the plant isn't intereted in building up the chlorophyll at the time - it doesn't seem like it is converting all that much N,P or K anyways.

Dormancy is like dying of thirst, but eating crackers right up to the end. Or perhaps not. :)

[LawnTamer]

I wait till the lawns have pretty much stopped growing to put down my winterizer. Here, that usually is late Oct. early Nov. I try to get that round done as quick as I can, as the weather here is very unpredictable. One year, you might be wearing T-shirts at Thanksgiving. One year it snowed over a foot on Nov. 1, and it stuck on the ground till we had a warm spell in mid Dec. I got a lot of complaints for fertilizing at Christmas time.

[BLC1]

Thanks for quick replies. That was helpful.

[whoopassonthebluegrass]

I just read an article last week from (my??) university that stated it needs to be applied as the grass begins to go dormant, but BEFORE it reaches full dormancy.

I have stalled as late as Thanksgiving... and I may as well have not bothered putting it down at all...

[Smallaxe]

I wait till the lawns have pretty much stopped growing to put down my winterizer. Here, that usually is late Oct. early Nov. I try to get that round done as quick as I can, as the weather here is very unpredictable. One year, you might be wearing T-shirts at Thanksgiving. One year it snowed over a foot on Nov. 1, and it stuck on the ground till we had a warm spell in mid Dec. I got a lot of complaints for fertilizing at Christmas time.

So do you believe the lawn is going to use the fert applied on Halloween and then a foot of snow within a week or two? or frozen ground?
How many pounds of N per k do you apply?

[mngrassguy]

Apps after Nov 1st are few and far between here. Many years we may only get 2-3 days that are snow free. Leaves on the ground make it tough on customer perception the last 2 weeks of October. I hope to finish up next week. Last year I finished around Thanksgiving.

[Smallaxe]

I was curious if you thought it was a waste this late in the season.
I can't imagine enough activity with the turf right now that by the time the ferts became available to the grass, there just wouldn't be that much call for it. Called by the plant, that is. Looking at the rest of the plantlife shutting down for the season , makes me think the grass is doing the same thing. Grass hasn't grown since last week here.

[turf hokie]

Around here last mowings are not finished until around Nov 15 then final cleanups are started.

I usually try to finish my last round the week of thanksgiving. We are starting on Monday. We can usually bang it out in about 3 1/2 weeks depending on weather.

But then again we are probably a little bit warmer than some of you folks being closer to the coast.

[mngrassguy]

I was curious if you thought it was a waste this late in the season.
I can't imagine enough activity with the turf right now that by the time the ferts became available to the grass, there just wouldn't be that much call for it. Called by the plant, that is. Looking at the rest of the plantlife shutting down for the season , makes me think the grass is doing the same thing. Grass hasn't grown since last week here.

It's not to late at all. Now is the time the plant is developing its root system. Feeding now will promote a quick spring green-up as well.

[tlg]

What we are looking for is root growth as a opposed to shoot growth. Late season nitrogen applications are designed to stimulate root growth and carbohydrate storage not necessarily to promote top growth. Shoot growth is greatly reduced when temps go below 55 degrees. Roots on the other hand are in soil that is still warm enough for the plant to be ALIVE. Once the ground is frozen I think you would consider a nitrogen application a dormant fertilization.

[turf hokie]

I was told some time ago that roto-rooter got most of its calls b/t now and January b/c of tree roots growing into septic systems and pipes.

If trees are growing their roots like that then the turf will be to. This means now is the time to feed those grass roots and do some pretty good hardening off before we get into frozen ground time.

Around here it is only getting in the 40's at nite so the ground temps are not exactly dropping of the charts.

[Smallaxe]

Dormant plants continue to respire through the winter, so water actively being available is easy to understand.
Where I have difficulty in thinking this through is:

Roots take in RAW materials such as NPK, send them up to the photosynthesis factory, in the chlorophyll, to make plant food to grow the roots, stems and shoots.
Raw materials may still be transformed, but it seems strange that, much new N is being brought in after the tops have stopped growing and reproducing the photosynthesis factories.

It generally takes a couple of weeks for ferts to become available to the plant during actively growing conditions? What is going on with the turf 2 weeks after it is applied?

What might the purpose of a 'dormant fertilization' be?

[tlg]

You are correct. And that is the million dollar question? Science types tell us that applying N is the right thing to do. We do what the research tells us. In the old days we applied very little N in the fall but lots of P and K. Guess what that worked too. This may be more about perception than science, however it works we do it this way now. A dormant fertilization may be a good way to make money on an application that you should have done two weeks ago. Does it have any value? I don't know. Can anybody really tell if their grass greened up earlier in the spring or do they think it does?

[FdLLawnMan]

Even though shoot growth has stopped there is still photosynthesis occurring. Dr. Wayne Kussow of the University if Wisconsin has shown that root growth occurs until the ground is just about frozen. If you apply it to early the energy from the fertilizer goes into shoot growth and not the roots.

[Smallaxe]

I do not doubt that photosynthesis is still occurring as long as there is living clorophyll growing in the sun.

Did Dr. Wayne Kussow happen to make any guesses on how many lbs. of N/k the turf was using to grow those roots??
- or-
Does the plant use very little N for root growth?

I have always heard the generalization that N for green growth, P for stems and fruits, K and P for roots.

Most soils with healthy active microbial presense, have adequate resources for root growth already there. Of course we encourage surface growth by putting easy to get at fert on the surface on a regular basis.

Our best bet is to not let the HO think this through too closely. :)

[tremor]

Ideally to coincide with the end of top growth (early November) but fert in November is now illegal in parts of New York so the programs (and income flow) will be changing radically soon.

[TLS]

Hey guys,....I need some advice. First year applying this late.

Our temps here have been in the 30's at night and low 50's during the day. Heavy frost every morning. We are forecast to dip to the upper 20's tonight. Most leaves still green on the trees.

Today I bought 46-0-0 for my last app ($37.50/bag...is that good/bad?) I'll be treating 450K.

We are forecast for a nice steady rain on Saturday.

I was thinking tomorrow (Friday) would be ideal to get this down.

But with reading above, I'm concerned I'm a bit too early?

Last app was first week of September 25-2-5 50% MESA w/ iron, it's still nice and green and I have been cutting weekly since....a majority of that has been w/o much rain. Customers are very happy with how well it bounced back from the summer heat.


I was thinking my plan out, and it sounds good....rain the next day, 50 days since last app, bills would go out in a week, grass would be green through the holiday season.


What are your thoughts? Specifically those in SE Pennsylvania.

Thanks

[whoopassonthebluegrass]

TLS: Go for it. With the temps you're experiencing, unless you get a heat wave that grass is well on its way to dormancy. Straight N is the way to go. Your price, however, is brutal...

[TLS]

Thanks Whoop.

Lesco wants $46/bag! I think what I paid is still high though.

Any local guys???

[mngrassguy]

Lesco is the highrst around here too. Rumor has it, they're closing up shop around here.

[FdLLawnMan]

I do not want to change the purpose of this thread but I can but 46-0-0 for $32.50 a bag all day long here and I would be shocked if JDL closes the store in Minnesota. That store moves a lot of product.

[FdLLawnMan]

I do not doubt that photosynthesis is still occurring as long as there is living clorophyll growing in the sun.

Did Dr. Wayne Kussow happen to make any guesses on how many lbs. of N/k the turf was using to grow those roots??
- or-
Does the plant use very little N for root growth?

I have always heard the generalization that N for green growth, P for stems and fruits, K and P for roots.

Most soils with healthy active microbial presense, have adequate resources for root growth already there. Of course we encourage surface growth by putting easy to get at fert on the surface on a regular basis.

Our best bet is to not let the HO think this through too closely. :)

Depending on the time of year the plant will use the nitrogen for different purposes. The only nutrient that the grass will luxury feed on is nitrogen, the more you give it the more it will take. From what I have read the general rule is 1 to 1.25 lbs of N per 1000 Sq. Ft. in late fall. They have gone as far as measuring the root mass to see what effect the nitrogen had on root growth. Microbial action in cold soils is very low, that is why adding organic fertilizers this time of year is not as effective.
I did an experiment on my own one year, on 1/2 of my lawn I use the standard Lesco winterizer fert of 21-0-21, 75% slow release. On the other half I used 46-0-0. In all honesty, the 46-0-0 greened up a little earlier than the 21-0-21 but the cost per 1000 Sq. Ft. with the urea was way cheaper.

[TLS]

Bump for any suggestions on my timing in SE PA?

[NattyLawn]

Hey guys,....I need some advice. First year applying this late.

Our temps here have been in the 30's at night and low 50's during the day. Heavy frost every morning. We are forecast to dip to the upper 20's tonight. Most leaves still green on the trees.

Today I bought 46-0-0 for my last app ($37.50/bag...is that good/bad?) I'll be treating 450K.

We are forecast for a nice steady rain on Saturday.

I was thinking tomorrow (Friday) would be ideal to get this down.

But with reading above, I'm concerned I'm a bit too early?

Last app was first week of September 25-2-5 50% MESA w/ iron, it's still nice and green and I have been cutting weekly since....a majority of that has been w/o much rain. Customers are very happy with how well it bounced back from the summer heat.


I was thinking my plan out, and it sounds good....rain the next day, 50 days since last app, bills would go out in a week, grass would be green through the holiday season.


What are your thoughts? Specifically those in SE Pennsylvania.

Thanks

You're probably a bit early. We're 10 degrees below normal for this time of year, but who knows what the weather will bring. I won't be starting winterizer apps until mid-November. Remember the winterizer application isn't for green up this year, but to bounce out of dormancy strong next spring.

[Smallaxe]

You're probably a bit early. We're 10 degrees below normal for this time of year, but who knows what the weather will bring. I won't be starting winterizer apps until mid-November. Remember the winterizer application isn't for green up this year, but to bounce out of dormancy strong next spring.

Then what is the April application for?

fd, The measuring of root mass is easily done by anyone who wants to see culmination of years of 'proper lawn care'. Pull a plug or two about the yard or open it up with a spade, and for the most part , These 4-6 apps of ferts have increased root mass in the thatch but very little beyond.

The shallower the root mass the quicker it is warmed in the spring and the quicker it should green up. Plants are not that lively with their toes still frozen 3 inches down.

We used to believe that TOO much of a good thing is bad, but now we believe there can never be TOO much of a good thing because it is even better.
I have one lawn that separates from the actual soil every spring and the blower lifts up chunks of turf as I am doing the spring cleaning of leaves and sticks. But we get the water back on at 3-5 inches of water/per week, along with 6 apps of fert - and that stuff lives another year. - Freaky. :)

We have had drought in the winter and dry springs b4 and if this ever happens b4 the irrigation gets turned on in May, we might be able to start over with this lawn.

[FdLLawnMan]

SmallAxe, I have seen one lawn with excessive thatch that had the problem you talk about. It was a sodded lawn that the guy used poor fertilization and watering practices on. I aerated it twice and then had a guy dethatch it and now it is fine.
I know late season fertilization with a water soluble nitrogen works as I have done it for 5 years now and I see its results. I do now apply any nitrogen in the spring until May 15.

[Smallaxe]

Fall ia the most important and May is definately better than April. Lawns on which I leave the clipping don't usually get fertilizer but once a year.
Do you fertilize in the heat of summer?

[whoopassonthebluegrass]

Do you fertilize in the heat of summer?

I sure do. Otherwise I'd be unemployed during the heat. But everyone here has a sprinkler system, so it's no big thing. We treat every 5-6 weeks...

[Smallaxe]

I add compost to cover the roots a little deeper and take advantage of the warmth to increase microbial action, which in turn will benefit soil structure and reduce thatch buildup. Too much water messes with that system, but essentially I can stay busy with that if I run out of things to do.

[phasthound]

I sure do. Otherwise I'd be unemployed during the heat. But everyone here has a sprinkler system, so it's no big thing. We treat every 5-6 weeks...

Summer is a great time to add organic matter. Compost is best, but not applicable to the overwhelming majority of LCO's. The next best practice is to use good granular products. Nutrients PLUS has several to choose from, very economical with great results.

Applying OM in the summer does not promote top growth, improves root growth, decreases water usage & disease problems, and keeps you working. :)