Take All Patch in Texas

[bostonkelly]

This disease continues to get more and more common in our area. I am now seeing numerous Bermuda lawns that have it. At first I was a little confused on the Bermuda turf, so I sent it to be tested and it came back positive for Gaeumannomyces graminis which was a surprise to me. I hate this disease!!! Anybody else out there had difficulty with it?

I have tried numerous suggestions from the Texas A & M plan with some improvement, but not enough to please my customers...and it seems like another one pops up every week or two.

If anyone has had some success with it in my area I would love to hear about it!

Thank you:confused:

[Ric]

bostonkelly

I have had only one lawn attacked by Gaeumannomyces graminis, graminis or Ggg Take all patch. This yard was being care for by a Big Boy company and under a lot of stress. Since Ggg was not common in my area I had trouble diagnosing it. A tissue sample confirmed it was not a common problem in my area.

Cure in my case was a year of Bi monthly treatments of Cleary's 3336 after first getting it suppressed with Cleary's 3336 Bi weekly treatment. Spring treatment seems to be the most critical time or window of opportunity to gain control. BTW the use of an acidifier penetrate like LI 700 must be used also.

In Edit BTW that was several years ago and I just treated that same yard yesterday. It is now one of the best looking yards on that street.

[bug-guy]

http://www.extensionplantclinics.msstate.edu/diag.keys/turf/ms.turf/Take-all_Diseases.revised.june.25.2005.doc

thought these was a good read

i think rounds with t-storm and eagle help

[quiet]

I've found Bermuda is somewhat easier to deal with for take all simply because it's hard to overfertilize bermuda down here. Ric is spot on in his advice, but let me add that it's important to change the way you do things.

Change your N source of fertilizer to Ammonium sulfate with manganese and high K blends. Change your watering regimen to deep soaking, then dry out - no more Monday, Weds, and Friday waterings.

Cleary's 3336 is effective over the long haul. But rotate with Eagle 20EW (myclobutanil) once or twice, also. Again, Ric is absolutely right about spring treatments being the best window of opportunity. For right now, fertilize with a biosolid fert right now, and hit it with the fungicide right before it goes dormant.

[greendoctor]

I've found Bermuda is somewhat easier to deal with for take all simply because it's hard to overfertilize bermuda down here. Ric is spot on in his advice, but let me add that it's important to change the way you do things.

Change your N source of fertilizer to Ammonium sulfate with manganese and high K blends. Change your watering regimen to deep soaking, then dry out - no more Monday, Weds, and Friday waterings.

Cleary's 3336 is effective over the long haul. But rotate with Eagle 20EW (myclobutanil) once or twice, also. Again, Ric is absolutely right about spring treatments being the best window of opportunity. For right now, fertilize with a biosolid fert right now, and hit it with the fungicide right before it goes dormant.

Those were the good old days. I remember dealing with Take All on my own lawn in the 1990's. It was treated with a monthly rotation of Bayleton and 3336 at max rates of both. Now, thiophanate methyl is restricted to no more than 2 oz/M and a total of 6 oz per year for residential turf. If I see the signs of Take All, I get on it with Insignia, then Eagle EW. The only way to put down max rates of those is to alternate fungicides each month. I actually see less disease in general, now that I liquid feed with potassium nitrate based formulas and use a high iron, high manganese micronutrient supplement with every monthly round.

[Kiril]

compost does a soil good!

[bostonkelly]

Thanks to all. Good info. I have been using Banner and Heritage with limited results. I am going to try Cleary 3336 and Eagle as suggested. The Cleary (Thiophanate Methyl) is definitely going to be cheaper.

If anyone else out there has experience with Take All, I would love to hear about it.

[Ric]

Yo

With an average pH of 9.5 on calcareous sand, I am forever applying acid forming fertilizer to all my yards. I also use a 1-0-1 ratio.

But let me add some wives tale to Ggg control. The house next door to my Ggg customer and separated by a vacant lot has a Zoysia lawn that was started from a few plugs 7 years ago. Paul a retired engineer works on his Zoysia daily and orders chemical of all kinds off the Internet as he studies every thing he can find about Zoysia. One time he was picking my brain, now I pick his about Zoysia problem because there are so few Zoysia lawns. But his fungus control method is quite interesting. and is as follows.

Paul's gutters empty into his swimming pool which is kept balanced with chemicals. But Paul also has his pool pump hooked to his irrigation system. On an average of once every two weeks, Paul waters his lawn with pool water which is high in chlorine. He feels the Chlorine water has helped if not cured his fungus problems but he also spot treats with Macozeb as needed. I have to admit Paul finally after 7 years has the best looking Zoysia lawn I have ever seen.

[quiet]

Interesting posts! And I love the dynamics of each approach - it reminds me how complex our industry really is. There are no simple solutions to complex issues.

I knocked down an emerging infection with Eagle and Mancozeb mixed in early May. It was on a weekly customer and I caught it right as it started to show up. I caught another break out on a different lawn around the 4th of July with the same combo, and then weekly spoon feedings of Ammonium sulfate for 4 straight weeks. We were in the middle of our extreme drought and blazing heat. (We had 50 days over 100 this summer and absolutely no rain at all for 4 months). And all ferts for the Mid-July round were a mix of biosolids and Ammonium sulfate. Absolutely no urea.

But overall, I would say that using AS as the soluble N source in 1-0-1 ratio fertilizers has made the most significant impact in disease reduction. Tremor once gave the advice that you gotta get K down BEFORE the stress hits. That's always stuck with me.

Interesting posts!

[gregory]

very interesting post some of the stuff you can learn on here by just reading...

ric i was going to call you but i would just post it up here do you or any of you spray fungus as a preventive measure or only hit it when you see it? i would think it would be kinda of expensive to do it as a preventive measure b/c the chemicals are so expensive...

[tamadrummer]

I believe that there is a bunch of emerging research out of IFAS saying that topdressing with peat moss will do more to cure and prevent than most fungicides.

I don't know if it is true or not but it may well be worth your time to buy a bail and apply it to one section of the turf and then do the traditional fungicide to others and see what happens.

[RAlmaroad]

I believe that there is a bunch of emerging research out of IFAS saying that topdressing with peat moss will do more to cure and prevent than most fungicides.

I don't know if it is true or not but it may well be worth your time to buy a bail and apply it to one section of the turf and then do the traditional fungicide to others and see what happens.

There may be something to it. I do this for most of my clients in December and January. The acidic quality of the spagnum seems to agree with the centipede, which likes a more acid PH anyway. Also, I personally don't have much of a fungus problem on my own yard as I've been overdressing for many years to just build up the soil. I'm starting on the newer lawns in June to apply some Cleary's followed by Daconil and Eagle followed by Insignia. That's when the temps are the worst for the fungus.

[Ric]

very interesting post some of the stuff you can learn on here by just reading...

ric i was going to call you but i would just post it up here do you or any of you spray fungus as a preventive measure or only hit it when you see it? i would think it would be kinda of expensive to do it as a preventive measure b/c the chemicals are so expensive...

Karl

Macozeb is back on the market and is not only cheap but an excellent Fungicide for Brown Patch as well as many other Fungus. By adding LI 700 you can make Macozeb a systemic and I have found half rate Macozeb and LI 700 cures Brown patch with one treatment. Recovery also appears to be quicker. This time of year I blanket spray Macozeb on all my lawns at half preventive rate with LI 700 and find I get a darker green because of the Mg & Zn. Be Careful not to buy Agi Labelled Macozeb for it has a high AI of Zinc and will dry out St Augustine.


tamadrummer

The Tree hugger will be surprised to hear me agree with the Peat Moss top dressing. Both central Texas and S.W. Coastal Florida have high pH soil. Texas is more clay while coastal Florida is nothing but sand. Both soils benefit greatly from the organic matter being added. The Peat Moss will offer a more permanent solution to high pH by lowering it, once it is worked into the soil. Peat Moss will also increase CEC, Field Capacity and Hydraulic conductivity. While Hallow core and top dressing has not caught on here in coastal Florida, it can reduce Fertilization and water costs greatly while still maintaining a great turf. The Fungus inhibiting properties of a Lower pH is only a side benefit to peat moss.

BTW there 3 major types of Peat Moss. Peat Humus which last about 5 years. Reed Sedge Peat that last about 4 years and Sphagnum Peat Moss that last about 2 years. Bio Solid Sludge will not lower pH.

The Down side to Hallow Core and Topdressing is the lack of understanding by the consumer of it's benefits. Because special equipment is needed, No one wants to jump in a market with very little demand. TG/CL has sold Hallow core as an extra but fail to top dress and therefore have created a black mark about Hallow Core with the Public. Top Dressing can also be expensive to consumers which further hurts that market and it's benefits.

[bug-guy]

Macozeb is back on the market and is not only cheap but an excellent Fungicide for Brown Patch as well as many other Fungus.


i think you are going to see mancozeb's label will don't include residentail lawns, only golf and athletic with some ornamental. it went away for awhile and then came back with no change on the label. then JDL had a recall.
i think it was because of the label

[greendoctor]

i think you are going to see mancozeb's label will don't include residentail lawns, only golf and athletic with some ornamental. it went away for awhile and then came back with no change on the label. then JDL had a recall.
i think it was because of the label

Right you are. As of now, there are no contact fungicides labeled for residential turf. It is a matter of the registrants not wanting to do the testing and labeling requirements to keep it legal on home lawns. Thank you FQPA. Because mancozeb is sprayed on food, yes you are reading this correctly, the EPA has dictated that people may not be exposed to any more mancozeb from other sources. That is how most of the OP's and fungicides got banned because they are sprayed on food. Therefore the quantity of human exposure to the chemical is at a level where residues on a lawn are over an arbitrary threshold. Dylox is safe for now because it does not persistent in the lawn like how diazinon and chlorpyrifos is. It is also not used in agriculture at all, so the only exposure is from turf applications. If this were commonly used in agriculture, you had better believe Dylox would be gone.

[txgrassguy]

First of all, Macozeb IS labeled for residential use here in Texas, as is Chlorothalnil. And has been for the ten years plus a life time I have been in central Texas.
Secondly, I have been experimenting with a combined synthetic/organic maintenance program for Gcc in Texas and have come up with, for me at least, a program that is cost effective, profitable and highly sustainable. A side benefit is an almost negligible herbicide input due to the healthier stand of turf.
As I am sure you guys know, pathogens are always existent in the edaphic environment and the way to maintain a healthy turf is to preserve a balanced site. Nothing new here at all.
All of this said, what I have experienced and consequently experimented with, is a controllable program that effectively restores the turf into a more rather resilient balance which wards off stressors which in turn allows out breaks, among which is the Gcc spps.
The soils here in Texas simply suck - that's all there is too it. Heavy in clay and associated fines, poor CEC, terrible infiltration, crappy irrigation sources (regardless if potable or not), heavy limestone infestations and abusive weather.
Like I said, nothing new.
What I have done is to place my residential sites (whose owners admittedly have deeper pockets than joe six-pack) on a cultural program which stresses hollow core aerification, deep tine raking (not verticutting), complete clipping collection throughout the entire mowing season (approximately 44X/yr in my AOR), monthly irrigation system check outs/programming and EXTREMELY limited granular N inputs, especially quickly available sources, and quarterly Fe additions with micro-nutrients.
Specific application amounts are dependent upon the individual turf sites and species, however, my results have been nothing short of dramatic.
This program has been in place for approximately three years and only twice during that time have I had to specifically address a disease out break which was attributed to our high temps and non-existent rainfall. Both times was during a 90 day drought cycle with day time temps above 105*F. This occurred in the first and third (this year) drought cycle. And I had no disease pressure following the nineteen inches of rainfall that just about flushed the closest town down the sewer last year.
Curative applications at less than the highest allowable rate where made, one time each so no follow up, and complete control was achieved.
The turf types were the common three C4 grasses, Zoysiagrass variety El Toro, Bermudagrass variety 419 and the old standard St. Aug. variety Raleigh.
If you guys are interested in a more detailed explanation, I will post something in the next week as a separate attachment.

[Ric]

Bug Guy & Green Doctor

Please compare a Cleary's Protect DF Label to a Mancozeb DG Label. and get back to me. Mancozeb is back on the market for Turf.

[greendoctor]

Correct again, Ric. Somehow, Cleary got approval for Protect DF to be used on residential turf. However, the EPA RED document http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/mancozeb_red.pdf dated 2005 states:

To mitigate risk concerns for toddlers who may be playing on transplanted sod
previously treated with mancozeb, a 3-day prohibition on harvesting is necessary to prevent mancozeb application to turf 3 days prior to harvest of sod. The Mancozeb Task Force hasagreed to this measure. To further address residential post-application exposure from turf, the Task Force has agreed to voluntarily delete all use of mancozeb on residential lawns from pesticide product labels. The Agency published a Notice of Receipt of these (and other) usedeletions in the June 1, 2005, Federal Register and intends to issue a cancellation order to
implement these use deletions.

The label for Protect DF dated 2004, with no revisions that I know of. I hope it stays that way.

[txgrassguy]

Ric, and Green, I recently, as of August 2008, purchased more Macozeb from Lesco and the label clearly indicates residential use is permissible.
Regarding the Cleary's product, I haven't used it in the Protect formulation, just the 3336, and that label also indicated use on residential turf.
Additionally I recently was audited by the state of Texas, specifically the Texas Department of Agriculture. One of the inspector's main points was lawful label use of fungicides, and he too reiterated Macozeb for use on residential sites here in Texas.
As I have posted before, I am not aware of other state's and their label restrictions yet I am comfortable with my operation and label understanding here in Texas.

[Ric]

Correct again, Ric. Somehow, Cleary got approval for Protect DF to be used on residential turf. However, the EPA RED document http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/mancozeb_red.pdf dated 2005 states:

To mitigate risk concerns for toddlers who may be playing on transplanted sod
previously treated with mancozeb, a 3-day prohibition on harvesting is necessary to prevent mancozeb application to turf 3 days prior to harvest of sod. The Mancozeb Task Force hasagreed to this measure. To further address residential post-application exposure from turf, the Task Force has agreed to voluntarily delete all use of mancozeb on residential lawns from pesticide product labels. The Agency published a Notice of Receipt of these (and other) usedeletions in the June 1, 2005, Federal Register and intends to issue a cancellation order to
implement these use deletions.

The label for Protect DF dated 2004, with no revisions that I know of. I hope it stays that way.

Green

For all the time I have spend posting on LS over the years, I only wished I had a dollar for every time someone has replied with "RIC IS RIGHT" That may sound arrogant. But when you're good, you're good.

[greendoctor]

Ric, I do have a bag of Dow Dithane DF with a label dated 1996 That label permits usage on residential turf. I am lucky. I was looking for Protect DF, but no one in Hawaii had it. The label dated 2000 carries a specific prohibition against usage on residential turf. Personally, I do not understand the issue the EPA has against mancozeb. I read the entire RED document and the only possible hazard is a slight cancer risk caused by the breakdown product ethylene thiourea ETU. The only way to absorb ETU is to touch or ingest grass that has been sprayed. Therefore, instead of mandating an REI, the EPA pushes for a ban. I also looked up the label for Lesco Mancozeb DF, that label also allows use on residential turf.

In my lifetime, I have sprayed many pounds of mancozeb, no problems. I know chlorthalonil will give me hives. Hopefully, I will not end up in the cancer ward because of mancozeb, with my dying words being "The EPA was right".

[Ric]

Green

I never liked Dithane DF because it is such a fine powder it got everywhere when you try and mix it. I always used a respirator because I sure didn't want to breath it. But it works great and is very cost effective. IMHO Chem companies love it when the EPA bans a older chemical that is out of patent. They then replace it with an other that they charge twice as much for. Mancozeb is such a broad spectrum chemical that has been replaced with more than one product, each being more species specify. It is corporate greed like this that has caused inflation and then the credit crunch because of the cost of living. This relates back to our morally in business that everyone wants something for nothing. Instead of Kids being happy they have cell phones, Corporate Greed pushed Blackberrys that not only have Internet but dance. With all these high tech toys, they have no time or desire to study or learn anything. Today China Manufactures it and India provides technical support. While the middle east oil countries are the partners of the new world bank.

[bug-guy]

ric

i said that the mancozeb at jdl came back and the label did not change. we noticed it right away that some bottles were labeled for residential turf.
there has since been a recall.
i think you will see any remaining(not recalled) and any new shipments will reflect a new label

all the new dithane labels read commerical sod farms and ag use (some municiplaties)

[Ric]

Bug Guy

The Bottom line is we should Thank Our Lucky stars that Al Gore is not running and elected with a democratic congress. The Federal Environmental Pesticide control Act of 1972 shifted the emphasis from Pest control regulation to the role of protecting the Public Health and the Environment. In light of the current green movement we should be happy we even have pesticides. This is phase that will pass with time just like DDT and Chlordane bans have come full circle in 3rd world countries. Vector insect control is an important part of Public Health as these 3rd world countries have found out. However how important is green grass compared to Public Health?? The Tree Huggers are hitting hard at our segment of the Green Industry because Food Production has a strong lobby and more important role than Grass. Look for more and more products to have label changes to be eliminated from 5 K lawns while still being wholesale applied to the thousands of Sq miles of Agi land.

[greendoctor]

Green

I never liked Dithane DF because it is such a fine powder it got everywhere when you try and mix it. I always used a respirator because I sure didn't want to breath it. But it works great and is very cost effective. IMHO Chem companies love it when the EPA bans a older chemical that is out of patent. They then replace it with an other that they charge twice as much for. Mancozeb is such a broad spectrum chemical that has been replaced with more than one product, each being more species specify. It is corporate greed like this that has caused inflation and then the credit crunch because of the cost of living. This relates back to our morally in business that everyone wants something for nothing. Instead of Kids being happy they have cell phones, Corporate Greed pushed Blackberrys that not only have Internet but dance. With all these high tech toys, they have no time or desire to study or learn anything. Today China Manufactures it and India provides technical support. While the middle east oil countries are the partners of the new world bank.

It was not in the best financial interest for Dow to maintain the registration for Dithane on residential turf. I could just see the hands rubbing and the mind clicking. Take away Dithane and LCO's are forced to use Eagle until widespread fungicide resistance occurs, then it is time to put something even more expensive on the market. Not having mancozeb breaks all of the rules taught to me about disease and resistance management. Cleary Chemical is different because their main fungicide, thiophanate methyl is also a target of the EPA's utopian policies.http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/tm_red.pdf So they gain nothing by taking mancozeb off the market. The RED documents for the products I commonly use make for very interesting reading. It seems that common sense is trumped by politics and money in most cases. Granted, I would not want to have parathion or Temik in residential areas, however some of the decisions made are based on very far-fetched scenarios. If the lawn is being treated, keep your kids and dogs off the grass.