Kohler Command Locked Up

[quicktune]

I serviced a kohler command 25 hp with 340 hrs and after 15 secounds of starting it locked up. I recived it low on oil but changed the oil filter and oil so I know the oil was not the problem. I checked the electric pto to make sure bearing was not locked up. (I changed all three belts) This was not the problem. took flywheel off to check for obstruction and all was good. Took off heads to see if I got something in carb while I had air filter off. Nothing in cylinders no scraches and looks a little discolored like mabey its been hot. I dont think its had regular maintenance. I ran the mower before I serviced it and it wasent making any noise. Tach was showing 1000 rpm and after service it showed 2000 rpm also when taking off valve cover on l side no oli r side had oil run out. Am thinking bad oil pump? What do others think

[MowerMedic77]

I recived it low on oil but changed the oil filter and oil so I know the oil was not the problem.

So was running with low oil and then you drained what was left and changed the oil filter, did you pre-oil the new filter before install or just run in dry?

[quicktune]

I did not put any oil in the new filter but it filled its self while running.

[MowerMedic77]

I did not put any oil in the new filter but it filled its self while running.

Were do u think the system gets a prime from? How long does it run dry before it fills, even a few seconds is too much. My point is you said it was low on oil when you got it and that means the upper main could have been overheating @ that point due to lack of lubrication and metal transfer may have also started, and then you started the unit dry after a drain and cool down and then restart with no oil to prime the system in the filter. Just trying to give you a reason for why it may have locked if thats what happened.

[topsites]

I did not put any oil in the new filter but it filled its self while running.

I don't think that's the problem, I've never pre-filled my oil filters in all of my life and I suppose that 2-3 seconds it might take
to fill up could create an issue but I've never had an engine seize because of that, at least I seriously doubt it.

What it has an inkling of a sound like...

Well shoot, I hate to speculate, it's not my engine.

I suggest, in the future, anytime before servicing an engine, when you notice an issue like it has low oil,
you call that customer before going any further and let them know about this before you proceed.
As they say, cover your donkey.

Because what if, suppose the customer had the engine seize on them...
They then got it 'free' by turning it by hand, didn't start it but just got it to turning.
They didn't do anything else to it, just that.

And brought it to you.
Because it was low on oil when you got it.

There's just no telling, and I am assuming a lot here because it's not my engine.

[topsites]

And I did want to add but I ran out of time, it may not be a customer trying to pull a fast one
and that part I still somewhat regret saying but it's already out I can't take it back.

We just don't know, it could have also been 2 minutes before it was about to seize they just
so happened to turn it off because they were done with it, and had it ran another minute or
two it would have seized on them instead of you, but it didn't.

The scenario is an engine doesn't always, and I dare say usually doesn't seize in the very instant damage happens.
Sometimes it does, like if an internal part breaks it is done, but other times the damage can happen in a slight
way such as when it is low on oil and it's ran on an incline it simply scores a few parts ever so lightly that it may not
actually seize for anywhere from a few minutes to another 2-3 days as the initial damage takes that long to get worse.
But once the damage occurs the end result is inevitable, seize it will, just a matter of time.

And so it was just in that nick of time between when it damaged itself and it seizing that you got it.

But I still don't know for sure, it's just what I'm thinking might have happened.

Talk to the customer, best I can tell you.

[ricky86]

It's not only the 5-6 seconds it takes to fill, oil pressure is much higher at start-up. The filter median can tear. It's like Bounty paper towels, stronger when wet. I have to agree with MowerMedic. Time to rip it. And, checking the oil should be done in front of the customer-always

[GravelyNut]

I don't think that's the problem, I've never pre-filled my oil filters in all of my life and I suppose that 2-3 seconds it might take
to fill up could create an issue but I've never had an engine seize because of that, at least I seriously doubt it.

What it has an inkling of a sound like...

Well shoot, I hate to speculate, it's not my engine.

I suggest, in the future, anytime before servicing an engine, when you notice an issue like it has low oil,
you call that customer before going any further and let them know about this before you proceed.
As they say, cover your donkey.

Because what if, suppose the customer had the engine seize on them...
They then got it 'free' by turning it by hand, didn't start it but just got it to turning.
They didn't do anything else to it, just that.

And brought it to you.
Because it was low on oil when you got it.

There's just no telling, and I am assuming a lot here because it's not my engine.


You mean like someone telling their boss they were just out mowing when the engine seized. And when you check the oil, you have both clean and dirty oil in the crankcase.:rolleyes:

And Kohler says to always prefill the filters.

[groundsmechanic]

how do you prefill a filter that mounts horizontally without having most of the oil run out and make a huge mess? I have never pre-filled a filter except hydraulic filters that mount from the bottom.

Do you pre-fill your vehicle filters? I don't.

If there was oil on one side and not the other I would be looking at a blocked oil passage on that side, especially if normal maintenance was neglected. You may have to split the case and see if both cylinders are siezed or just one. I would be willing to bet the one without oil on the head will be the one locked.

[MowerMedic77]

how do you prefill a filter that mounts horizontally without having most of the oil run out and make a huge mess? Easy! I do it all the time, fill a filter about half way and let it sit a min and turn in on its side right before you spin it on. Never even bring a rag with me cause no mess.

you pre-fill your vehicle filters? I don't. Yes I do, I use the same procedure:cool2:

And by the way, why pre-oil the hydro filter? I think your answer will translate into why you should pre-oil your engine oil filter.

[Phil G]

I serviced a kohler command 25 hp with 340 hrs and after 15 secounds of starting it locked up. I recived it low on oil but changed the oil filter and oil so I know the oil was not the problem. I checked the electric pto to make sure bearing was not locked up. (I changed all three belts) This was not the problem. took flywheel off to check for obstruction and all was good. Took off heads to see if I got something in carb while I had air filter off. Nothing in cylinders no scraches and looks a little discolored like mabey its been hot. I dont think its had regular maintenance. I ran the mower before I serviced it and it wasent making any noise. Tach was showing 1000 rpm and after service it showed 2000 rpm also when taking off valve cover on l side no oli r side had oil run out. Am thinking bad oil pump? What do others think


Did you fit a genuine filter? I've seen some non original filters cause issues.

Good luck, Phil

[BigFish]

You absolutely should pre-fill the filter!!! Whats wrong with you so called "mechanics"??? Unbelievable!!!!
Besides being recommended by every eng. mfg. just common sense should tell ya.Just fill up to the threads and let sit a minute or so.
It's even more important to pre-fill on your vehicles.

[groundsmechanic]

You absolutely should pre-fill the filter!!! Whats wrong with you so called "mechanics"??? Unbelievable!!!!
Besides being recommended by every eng. mfg. just common sense should tell ya.Just fill up to the threads and let sit a minute or so.
It's even more important to pre-fill on your vehicles.

In all my years working on cars and trucks, never once have I seen anything say to "pre-fill" my filter. Not one service manual, not one factory class, nothing has ever mentioned it.

[ricky86]

Look at it this way, you learned something today. Learning in this field is never ending.

[VegetiveSteam]

My 9th grade shop teacher told us to always pre-fill an oil filter. The Kohler repair manual also advises in the lubrication section and also the reassembly section to pre-fill the oil filter as does the owner's manual under the maintenance section.

Now that being said I doubt that not pre-filling the oil filter is what caused the failure. The only way you are going to know for sure what happened it to tear the engine down and inspect it. If you have a rod that seized to the crankshaft then we know there was no oil at that rod journal and that is why it failed. Now the million dollar question is why was there no oil at that journal or at least why was there not sufficient oil at that journal. Was the oil extremely dirty or low? Or was there a component failure? Time to tear it down and find out.

[ffemt1271]

did you pre-oil the new filter before install or just run in dry?


my kohler filter mounts sideways, how are you supposed to pre-fill those?
seems that if they needed to be pre filled they would mount them upright

[MowerMedic77]

my kohler filter mounts sideways, how are you supposed to pre-fill those?
seems that if they needed to be pre filled they would mount them upright

Already answered this but here you go again..........

Easy! I do it all the time, fill a filter about half way and let it sit a min and turn in on its side right before you spin it on. Never even bring a rag with me cause no mess.

Let me ask you this, why do oil filters have anti-drain valves?

[BigFish]

In all my years working on cars and trucks, never once have I seen anything say to "pre-fill" my filter. Not one service manual, not one factory class, nothing has ever mentioned it.

Hey! Ain't you the same one that had a pump seal fail, then , instead of tearin' down the pump, or at least ,doin a flow test to find out what died, just popped in a new seal???? OOPS!!!
Like I said....... "so-called mechanics".

I like the part about "not one service manual........."

[groundsmechanic]

Hey! Ain't you the same one that had a pump seal fail, then , instead of tearin' down the pump, or at least ,doin a flow test to find out what died, just popped in a new seal???? OOPS!!!
Like I said....... "so-called mechanics".

I like the part about "not one service manual........."

You have a PM.

[BigFish]

You have a PM.

I don't do PMs. Didn't realize it was turned on. Ain't no more. Thats why the forum.

[groundsmechanic]

Well, I didn't want to clutter up this guys post any more than it already was. But I guess because you don't do PMs, you are cool.

[GravelyNut]

In all my years working on cars and trucks, never once have I seen anything say to "pre-fill" my filter. Not one service manual, not one factory class, nothing has ever mentioned it.I could go back 30 or 40 years and bring up manuals that said to do so. GM has always said to prefill them on ones that hang down. Same thing on Allison transmissions. Detroit Diesel says to prefill their remote oil filters and fuel filters that are spin-ons.

[ffemt1271]

Already answered this but here you go again..........



Let me ask you this, why do oil filters have anti-drain valves?

so it's 1/2 pre filled, i dont see the big deal about a couple ounces of oil, if it was completely full, as on my diesel truck i could see the benefit, but for only 1/2 or 1/3 i don't think it would make that big a bifference

[GravelyNut]

so it's 1/2 pre filled, i dont see the big deal about a couple ounces of oil, if it was completely full, as on my diesel truck i could see the benefit, but for only 1/2 or 1/3 i don't think it would make that big a bifference
The prefilling serves more than one purpose. Along with getting the oil to the bearings quicker, it also serves to prevent incoming oil from ripping the filter material.

[topsites]

Funny, the filter on my 15hp Kohler mounts hole down, and I mean upside down
at least as far as pre-filling would be concerned I would rather mount it dry than
have a gloop of fresh oil all over the deck... Because anti-drain or not if I "pre-fill"
that joker some is going to leak out.

The business end of oil, the important part is down in the sump, but most smaller
engines don't really have an oil 'pump' per se, it's simply the crankshaft lobes
dive down into it and splash it upwards, more how it works... Which, I wonder
if bigger engines really have an actual oil 'pump' or whether it's just the internal
engine parts moving at such high speed get the flow going... Either how, so long
there is oil down in the sump that is where it needs to be.

On all of that talk of oil thou something else just sprung to mind...
And I have to ask...

You did, did you not, put in fresh oil after you 'changed' it?
Yeah now I'm not saying you didn't, but that would do it.

[groundsmechanic]

I could go back 30 or 40 years and bring up manuals that said to do so. GM has always said to prefill them on ones that hang down. Same thing on Allison transmissions. Detroit Diesel says to prefill their remote oil filters and fuel filters that are spin-ons.

Maybe on the 30 or 40 year old vehicles but the newer ones don't mention it.

The business end of oil, the important part is down in the sump, but most smaller
engines don't really have an oil 'pump' per se, it's simply the crankshaft lobes
dive down into it and splash it upwards, more how it works... Which, I wonder
if bigger engines really have an actual oil 'pump' or whether it's just the internal
engine parts moving at such high speed get the flow going... Either how, so long
there is oil down in the sump that is where it needs to be.

The engine in the original post is the same model as the ones on our exmarks. I had to replace one of these this summer and I tore the old one down after the new one was installed. It actually did have an oil pump. I didn't think these smaller ones had a pump either but with these Kohlers, they do.

From the Kohler manual:
"A high-efficiency gerotor pump is located in the
closure plate. The oil pump maintains high oil flow
and oil pressure, even at low speeds and high
operating temperatures. A pressure relief valve limits
the maximum pressure of the system."