findings on natural, organic, and synthetics

[hobbsd]

I've worked extensively on customers lawns using fully synthetic, fully organic (with ICT), and using bridge products. Here is a quick summary of my findings.

Fully synthetic systems work fine for doing residential applications. You want as many apps as possible, and since your frying much of the biological life with the system, you will always need a large amount of applications. This system is best for must new suburban lawns that have high % of bluegrass and lots of watering.

Fully organic... We used a system of 1 app of corn gluten in early spring with 5 applications of fish emulsion with highly concentrated ICT. YOU WILL NOT ELIMINATE WEEDS WITH THIS SYSTEM so you still need to do weed spraying with chem. Some chems are less harmful than others to the soils bio-life. We found this system to work best with older, fescue lawns that were not watered and did not have chemical influence for at least 5 years prior. The results on these lawns were by far better than the synthetic system. HOWEVER, this system performed AWEFUL on any lawn with bluegrass and steady watering. All of these lawns were pale, ugly, and started thinning after a year or two. Since 70-90% of most peoples lawns are in the latter category, I cannot recommend a ICT organic system for commercial lawn care. We also attempted mixing in some higher nutrient ingredients and the results certainly didn't match the costs.

Bridge Product System... This system is the best we've found so far. I'm not going to tell you all my secrets since this is what we currently use. But basically with the right formulation of synthetics and organics you can maintain a bio-life level in lawns and still get a proper set of nutrients down. Our lawns could go head-to-head for first place with anyones in a competition. Plus we don't have the big swings that come from a fully synthetic system. We have had a major university test our system and we proved that it was superior in almost every count over a fully syth system.

[phasthound]

Excellent post hobbsd.

Bridge products do provide the best of both synthetic & organic nutrient sources in a very economical manner.
The synthetic portion can be tweaked to provide specific formulations for different needs, while the organic base provides long term steady nutrient release and microbial activity which increases root mass, increases drought tolerance and decreases pesticide usage.

And as you mentioned, great results for your clients.
Keep up the good work!

[Kiril]

The results on these lawns were by far better than the synthetic system. HOWEVER, this system performed AWEFUL on any lawn with bluegrass and steady watering. All of these lawns were pale, ugly, and started thinning after a year or two.

This may suggest two things:

1) Improper irrigation management
2) Organic program is not correct for the site(s)

I agree with Barry, in many cases a bridge program is going to provide the best results.

[Smallaxe]

This may suggest two things:

1) Improper irrigation management
2) Organic program is not correct for the site(s)

I agree with Barry, in many cases a bridge program is going to provide the best results.

My first thoughts were of too much water and also the 5 apps of fish emulsion is no different than 5 apps of any other N product, in that, you encourage shallow rooted growth.
My KBG seems to do a little better every year, w/out any synthetic ferts, on one fall feeding. IF the clippings get cycled back in. Where its bagged we feed twice.

[DUSTYCEDAR]

ALL SITES DIFFER so does my program
great work on your post

[Whitey4]

I've worked extensively on customers lawns using fully synthetic, fully organic (with ICT), and using bridge products. Here is a quick summary of my findings.

Fully synthetic systems work fine for doing residential applications. You want as many apps as possible, and since your frying much of the biological life with the system, you will always need a large amount of applications. This system is best for must new suburban lawns that have high % of bluegrass and lots of watering.

Fully organic... We used a system of 1 app of corn gluten in early spring with 5 applications of fish emulsion with highly concentrated ICT. YOU WILL NOT ELIMINATE WEEDS WITH THIS SYSTEM so you still need to do weed spraying with chem. Some chems are less harmful than others to the soils bio-life. We found this system to work best with older, fescue lawns that were not watered and did not have chemical influence for at least 5 years prior. The results on these lawns were by far better than the synthetic system. HOWEVER, this system performed AWEFUL on any lawn with bluegrass and steady watering. All of these lawns were pale, ugly, and started thinning after a year or two. Since 70-90% of most peoples lawns are in the latter category, I cannot recommend a ICT organic system for commercial lawn care. We also attempted mixing in some higher nutrient ingredients and the results certainly didn't match the costs.

Bridge Product System... This system is the best we've found so far. I'm not going to tell you all my secrets since this is what we currently use. But basically with the right formulation of synthetics and organics you can maintain a bio-life level in lawns and still get a proper set of nutrients down. Our lawns could go head-to-head for first place with anyones in a competition. Plus we don't have the big swings that come from a fully synthetic system. We have had a major university test our system and we proved that it was superior in almost every count over a fully syth system.

That combo is exactly what I am trying to find... what the most effective mix is, for results and the environment. I call it IPM, but my program is hardly done in terms of tweaking as a solo LCO. For me, it has to be trial and error... educated guesses... no university studies.

However... If you choose to PM with some some hints, I will swear myself to secrecy... I would endure torture and blackmail before I spill my beans or otherwise compromise your program. I have a leftover cyanide pill from when I was in the USAF in Nam. ....... OK, kidding.... I don't have a cyanide pill!

In a nutshell... organics have their place, but control products will never go away as good results are expected and without them, despite what the fanatics might say, they are a needed tool. It has to be a mix.

Great post.... but what a teaser! I know what doesn't work best... you seem to know, and.... there is the tease. In any case, congrats on finding the formula. I on't blame you for keeping it under your hat. That knowledge came with a price.

[hobbsd]

That combo is exactly what I am trying to find... what the most effective mix is, for results and the environment. I call it IPM, but my program is hardly done in terms of tweaking as a solo LCO. For me, it has to be trial and error... educated guesses... no university studies.

However... If you choose to PM with some some hints, I will swear myself to secrecy... I would endure torture and blackmail before I spill my beans or otherwise compromise your program. I have a leftover cyanide pill from when I was in the USAF in Nam. ....... OK, kidding.... I don't have a cyanide pill!

In a nutshell... organics have their place, but control products will never go away as good results are expected and without them, despite what the fanatics might say, they are a needed tool. It has to be a mix.

Great post.... but what a teaser! I know what doesn't work best... you seem to know, and.... there is the tease. In any case, congrats on finding the formula. I on't blame you for keeping it under your hat. That knowledge came with a price.

haha, I know how you feel! It took me years to find the right mix and manufacturer. However it will remain my secret :laugh::laugh::laugh:

In response to the the KBG results. I had about 100 different KBG lawns that I attempted to manage with the emulsions and tea. We also had an organic K product added. Anyway, the results were bad all around. Customers want GREAT grass not "worse than if I just got it at Home Depot" grass.

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

as kiril said...wrong program approach for that particular site


it also upsets me when guy's put all their hopes in some expensive wannabe tea and don't get results and say organic landcare doesn't work?

btw....fish emulsion does have good N content but it is stinky and nutrient bland IMO............ever heard of fish hydrolysate?

VERITY in foods is key.........know your soil first. then add whats needed

IMO with out a doubt the best performing program is a bridge program but you have to understand how to balance the inputs so not to do more harm then good or not to wasting time and money on materials


your not going to get results from depleted/spent fish waste and expensive bottled wannabe tea only for a nutrient and water hungry grass like kbg. unless your starting with some of the most fertile soil to begin with.
even then it's iffy
think diversity in foods/nutrients from inorganic/organic sources

it all comes down to your soil though.....poor soils are not good candidates for a true organic program. thats where synthetics come into play
but whether synthetic or organic......all programs will benefit from improved soil conditions........improve CEC/ph,buffering capacity/+other characteristics.......good compost comes to my mind as a lasting soil builder,plant growth improver?

[Smallaxe]

Speaking of soils. :)

Clay w/out OM is 'dirt'. Sand w/out OM is 'dirt'. 45%sand with 45% clay w/out the 10%OM and/or silt is NOT a 'loam' - it is just muddy dirt.

B4 the soil test - add the compost and think about the water. Water has a great deal to do about how well the grass is established in any given situation. OM and water do more together, than does 'feed' alone.

Also, Compost Tea needs 'water' to function. Most Tea microbes live on OM, though a few, will feed on clay and sand itself. Still the plants need: Cation Exchange Sites to retrieve the nutrients they are seeking at the time.

Your soil test may show that - there is not enough potash in the soil, but once the compost provides a 'proper' CEC - there may be more than enough potash w/out a 'k' application.
On the other hand - any additional 'k' applied to the turf may not even be usable by the plant, because the CEC was NOT applied with the potash. So the plant can't get it, anyway.

Is it ALWAYS a good idea to add compost first?

Will a soil test indicate that COMPOST is called for?

[Kiril]

Speaking of soils. :)

Clay w/out OM is 'dirt'. Sand w/out OM is 'dirt'. 45%sand with 45% clay w/out the 10%OM and/or silt is NOT a 'loam' - it is just muddy dirt.

Shame on you.

Not following you on the CEC stuff.

Will a soil test indicate that COMPOST is called for?

Yes, assuming total OM is determined.

[Smallaxe]

Clay provides for Cation exchange, but infrquent water can turn it inhospitable.
OM also provides CE sites, but also buffers the extremes between wet and dry, thereby, making a usable loam.

Am I incorrect in my understanding of what CEC means?
[Sand does not provide a 'site' for a plant root to grab an 'N" molecule to use, as does, clay and OM.]

[hobbsd]

as kiril said...wrong program approach for that particular site


it also upsets me when guy's put all their hopes in some expensive wannabe tea and don't get results and say organic landcare doesn't work?

btw....fish emulsion does have good N content but it is stinky and nutrient bland IMO............ever heard of fish hydrolysate?

VERITY in foods is key.........know your soil first. then add whats needed

IMO with out a doubt the best performing program is a bridge program but you have to understand how to balance the inputs so not to do more harm then good or not to wasting time and money on materials


your not going to get results from depleted/spent fish waste and expensive bottled wannabe tea only for a nutrient and water hungry grass like kbg. unless your starting with some of the most fertile soil to begin with.
even then it's iffy
think diversity in foods/nutrients from inorganic/organic sources

it all comes down to your soil though.....poor soils are not good candidates for a true organic program. thats where synthetics come into play
but whether synthetic or organic......all programs will benefit from improved soil conditions........improve CEC/ph,buffering capacity/+other characteristics.......good compost comes to my mind as a lasting soil builder,plant growth improver?

We were using non-smelling hydroslate and emulsions, our program was a mix of nutrients etc.... anyway you hit it right on the head with the "poor soils are not good candidates for a true organic program" unfortunately, most of our suburban lawns don't have good soil and about half of the old lawns are just sand... so like I said, the fully organic approach is really not a great option if you want to have a thriving business with happy customers.

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

We were using non-smelling hydroslate and emulsions, our program was a mix of nutrients etc.... anyway you hit it right on the head with the "poor soils are not good candidates for a true organic program" unfortunately, most of our suburban lawns don't have good soil and about half of the old lawns are just sand... so like I said, the fully organic approach is really not a great option if you want to have a thriving business with happy customers.



agreed....

i deal with poor soils" sandy, rocks, clay subsurface" every day in these new housing developments,

dame......if i could only get to them before they sod!!!!!!

water managment is so crucial for seccess too with these soils

[Kiril]

Clay provides for Cation exchange, but infrquent water can turn it inhospitable.
OM also provides CE sites, but also buffers the extremes between wet and dry, thereby, making a usable loam.

Explain the underlined section.

Sand does not provide a 'site' for a plant root to grab an 'N" molecule to use, as does, clay and OM.

Doesn't work like that, and yes, sand has a very low CEC.

@ hobbs

If your soil is of poor quality, then you need to build it back up. Regular additions of compost + mulching your clippings will lead to a more fertile soil .... granted not over night, but it will happen,

[Marcos]

I've worked extensively on customers lawns using fully synthetic, fully organic (with ICT), and using bridge products. Here is a quick summary of my findings.

Fully synthetic systems work fine for doing residential applications. You want as many apps as possible, and since your frying much of the biological life with the system, you will always need a large amount of applications. This system is best for must new suburban lawns that have high % of bluegrass and lots of watering.

Fully organic... We used a system of 1 app of corn gluten in early spring with 5 applications of fish emulsion with highly concentrated ICT. YOU WILL NOT ELIMINATE WEEDS WITH THIS SYSTEM so you still need to do weed spraying with chem. Some chems are less harmful than others to the soils bio-life. We found this system to work best with older, fescue lawns that were not watered and did not have chemical influence for at least 5 years prior. The results on these lawns were by far better than the synthetic system. HOWEVER, this system performed AWEFUL on any lawn with bluegrass and steady watering. All of these lawns were pale, ugly, and started thinning after a year or two. Since 70-90% of most peoples lawns are in the latter category, I cannot recommend a ICT organic system for commercial lawn care. We also attempted mixing in some higher nutrient ingredients and the results certainly didn't match the costs.

Bridge Product System... This system is the best we've found so far. I'm not going to tell you all my secrets since this is what we currently use. But basically with the right formulation of synthetics and organics you can maintain a bio-life level in lawns and still get a proper set of nutrients down. Our lawns could go head-to-head for first place with anyones in a competition. Plus we don't have the big swings that come from a fully synthetic system. We have had a major university test our system and we proved that it was superior in almost every count over a fully syth system.

:clapping::clapping::clapping:

Excellent post, hobbsd!

It took my customer base about a decade or so to steer me to precisely where you landed!
With bridge programs you can get the best of both worlds from the customers' perspective, be within budget means, and do plenty of things to earnestly build the soil, and not just mundanely & routinely "fertilize the grass".

I differ with your sentiments somewhat, however, when it comes to "fully" organic!
I've found that the trick here is to get the turf sooooooo thick & healthy from the get-go, that weeds don't stand a chance in the long run, and are essentially "out-competed" to death.

Yes, on established turf this could initially mean one or two blanket apps of herbicide to subdue the weed population. Or, in worse case situations, complete kill out by Roundup alone.

Then once new seed is back to the point in which the turf's able to withstand weed breakthroughs; the challenge from that point forward is strictly adhere to organic feeding schedules, every-other season composting, endo mycorrhizae injection, etc... and MOST IMPORTANTLY... keeping a keen eye out for 'thin spots' that may need occasional seed touch-ups.

To me...there's absolutely no reason in the WORLD an applicator should have to go back to 2,4-D.....in organic turf that is truly well maintained.

[Smallaxe]

Explain the underlined section.



Doesn't work like that, and yes, sand has a very low CEC.

,

When clay dries, it hardens like concrete, when sand dries, it happens quickly and thoroughly. When there is OM in the mix it holds moisture better and longer than both. That has been my experience from the farm field, through the garden, onto the lawns, and of course, the flower pots.

What can I say to explain it?
Soil chemistry is useful for those who can use it to explain the reality of what we see every day. Soil chemists who tell me that what I see - isn't so - just doesn't fly with intelligent progress in acedamia. I would like someone to give a good explanation that is simple to understand and make sense in the real world. Sometimes there are more factors at play than a clinical lab study can follow so they draw FALSE conclusions.

My desciption of CEC activity is a simple visual that is easy to understand. If you would like to fill it in with needed info - feel free.

[Kiril]

When clay dries, it hardens like concrete, when sand dries, it happens quickly and thoroughly. When there is OM in the mix it holds moisture better and longer than both. That has been my experience from the farm field, through the garden, onto the lawns, and of course, the flower pots.

Not sure I agree with the longer part with respect to clay, but that is a better description, for the lurkers and all. :)

I would like someone to give a good explanation that is simple to understand and make sense in the real world. My desciption of CEC activity is a simple visual that is easy to understand. If you would like to fill it in with needed info - feel free.

How about this.

Imagine a playground (soil) with 20 kids (solution ions), 5 of which are bullies. This playground has 10 swings (exchange sites).

Everyone wants a swing, however the bullies always get them first (selectivity). So we have 10 swings with 10 kids (exchangeable ions) using them.

Then a bus pulls up with 20 more bullies (fertilizer with irrigation), so now the 5 swings that could be used by the other kids get taken by the bullies (activity, concentration, selectivity). As a result, some of the kids leave the playground (leaching).

Then a trailer pulls up with 40 portable swings (organic matter addition). Now there are enough swings to go around for everyone (increased buffering capacity).

The above is an over simplification of a complex process, and doesn't take into account solubility, pH dependent charge and reactions, differences between cation and anion exchange, solvation, chelation, sieve action, etc... but you get the gist it.

[phasthound]

Not sure I agree with the longer part with respect to clay, but that is a better description, for the lurkers and all. :)



How about this.

Imagine a playground (soil) with 20 kids (solution ions), 5 of which are bullies. This playground has 10 swings (exchange sites).

Everyone wants a swing, however the bullies always get them first (selectivity). So we have 10 swings with 10 kids (exchangeable ions) using them.

Then a bus pulls up with 20 more bullies (fertilizer with irrigation), so now the 5 swings that could be used by the other kids get taken by the bullies (activity, concentration, selectivity). As a result, some of the kids leave the playground (leaching).

Then a trailer pulls up with 40 portable swings (organic matter addition). Now there are enough swings to go around for everyone (increased buffering capacity).

The above is an over simplification of a complex process, and doesn't take into account solubility, pH dependent charge and reactions, differences between cation and anion exchange, solvation, chelation, sieve action, etc... but you get the gist it.

Damn it Kiril, it's been far too long since I've been on a swing set, but that's a good one. :)

Going to the playground now. :walking:

[Smallaxe]

...The above is an over simplification of a complex process, and doesn't take into account solubility, pH dependent charge and reactions, differences between cation and anion exchange, solvation, chelation, sieve action, etc... but you get the gist it.

Only 6 more analogies to go and we'll all have a better understanding what is actually going on in the soil. :) Thanks.