standers vs walk-behinds?

[Darrell]

My buddy and I went to the trade show at the Hynes Center last week. I only have experience with John Deere mid-mount tractors. For someone starting a maintenance division what is the most versatile and efficient to purchase, a stander or a walk-begind? Anyone with experience on both? I'm looking to compare and contrast. Up until last week, I was under the impression that walk-behinds were the necessary initial purchase. Now, I'm wondering if a stander, will out perform for the money. I have talked to sales reps, but I'm looking for honest advice from someone out in the trenches who has used both. Please help!
nstownpark@juno.com

[sheppard]

Evening Darrell,

I have a Snapper 36" WB. My plan is to buy a Wright Stander 52" or 61" shortly. The Snapper is a fixed deck, belt drive.

When I decided to get a W.S. at first I thought I would (after trading in the Snapper) get a 36" & the larger ones I mentioned above. Now I think the best move would be to have an adjustable deck put on the Snapper and keep it, but also get the larger Wright Stander. They are so much more productive and they take up less space on a trailer.

Cordially,
Sheppard

[slplow]

Darrell, was that the NE GROWS show in MA? If you don't have alote of hills the stander or a zero turn rider is the way to go.

[BRL]

The Standers work great on hills. Very stable & safe. They are better than the belt drive walk behinds I have owned (for hills). I never owned a hydro walk behind so I can't compare to that. The Stander allowed me to do what we were doing with 2 walk behinds in a day, so I will vote they they are worth the money over walk behinds.

[Mark]

BRl what size decks are you talking about on the walkbehinds. I have two 52" that cut great a 6mph and they can get into places where my 62 ZTR can't, i only use Hydros there hard to beat on hills and im down here on the Ohio River and have many hilly accounts. I can't see a stander geting the job done any faster than me on a 52 walk. Darrell that Snapper with the fixed deck should have adjustments,i have a Snapper 52 fixed its on its nineth yr and still going strong,don't you have front caster adjustments plus back bolts also for deck adjustment? Good luck with your new purchase. Marks Mowing Service

[tpirobert]

Darrell

I have a 52" gear drive WB, a 52"Z rider and a 61" Wright Stander. I mow all day with the Stander and have the WB as a back-up or for a couple hills I prefer not to put the Stander on. The Z gets used for fall bagging of leaves and as spray/fert rig and pulling aerator. My most valuable piece of equipment is the Stander. I live in the mountain region of NC, so we have plenty of hills. The Stander does very well. I don't know your whole situation, but my vote would be to keep a WB and buy a 52 or 61 Stander. I have considered selling my Z, but it's paid for and I have found more uses for it. Should I expand my business again, I will probably buy more Standers, no riders or WBs

[carlriv]

Ah something I know about...

I used to have 3 48" walk behinds and 1 36". I did buy velkes for the 48"s' and a 52" Scag SSZ

Now I have 2 52" Great Dane Surfers, 2 61" Wright Standers, and one Hustler 260K

My mowing revenue has grown by 3-4 times since the days of walk behinds, mowing labor hours are up 10% +/- ($$'s are up significantly)

The only places I cant use the standers is where they physically dont fit thru (gates), or where I would not dare use a walk behind either.

Sometimes I wish I kept the 36", but for the few places I need it I use a 21" and charge accordingly

[yorkpaddy]

i might be wrong, but when this guy said maintence division, i was thinking of something like the grounds crew for a university, on a smaller scale. So trailer space might not be as much of a concern for him. I have done some pretty steep hills with my Toro 36 belt drive. one hill was so steep, that when I let the machine get away from me, it rolled down the hill. And i don't mean pointed nose down, i mean it tumbled down. Once that happened, i gave the lawn up. I could do the lawn with the 36, but I had to be absolutely perfect with my control on the turns transitioning from braking to drive, or else the machine would roll backwards on that side, and when it did start driving, wheelie up hard. It was 2 years ago, so I don't remember too well.

[Guardian]

STANDER OWNERS:

Please tell me how many of you adjust the deck height during the day. How many times? How long does it take? What is your method? Do you get grease on yourself?

I love the standers performance, but I change my deck height all day, sometimes in the middle of a job. (Sentar only goes up to 52", I want 61.)

[tpirobert]

Adjusting the Stander deck. Don't do it , wouldn't be prudent:)
Seriously, I set my deck for 3 to 31/2 inches and leave it. For changing blades or to change deck setting I use a Jungle Jack to lift front. If you have to change height, move spacers on casters. Wear a glove and no grease on your hands. I run double blades in the fall, so I adjust spacers on spindles for proper hight cut. Educate your customers on the proper height cut for your type grass and/or tell them it will cost more to cut at a different height. That's what I do.

[Five Star Lawn Care LLC]

I have a 52" great dane super surfer and a 60" dixie chopper. Both have there individual purpose that is very crutial to the effinciency of my crew. for obvious reasons the dixie is the mower of choice on flat large area and nothing can touch it as far as productivity. On the other hand the GDs manuferability and the floating deck is ideal for mowing small residentials, tight commercial ares and also berms. The GD has a very easy hieght adjustment that is acheved by to pivoting arms on either side of the deck and is held in place by 2 large pins....ill try to get some pics up of the hight adjustment unit if any one hasnt seen it or is confused.

[carlriv]

Please tell me how many of you adjust the deck height during the day. How many times? How long does it take? What is your method? Do you get grease on yourself?

I agree with tpirobert, and I am ser ious. Dont do it. We change height 2x per year after the spring season and then again in late September. For those lawns that you just cant cut because they grow too fast we do one of a few things (we have very few)
1. Double cut with Dane or Stander
2. Blow clumps to disperse
3. Cut with Hustler or just pick up clumps with Hustler

I do know that the Dane Super Surfer does have an easy height adjustment but I didn't like that machine.

[sheppard]

Learned alot from these posts. Mark, I'm the one with the fixed deck Snapper- it looks too hard for me to change the deck on the accounts that want a close shave. Trying to hold out for my Wright Stander purchase. The one account that needs a close cut is 5 acres big- taks me too long on the Snapper anyway (plus the velky beats my feet to death).

Cordially,
Sheppard

[awm]

just thought id mention . theres a couple ,what look like good stander deals on ebay right now.

[kutnkru]

IMHO if you have a hydro walk and a stander adjusted properly you can cut steeper berms with the walk behind obviously. I have seen a few LMOs in our area operate the standers on some tricky sites with a little finesse rather easily too.

The major consideration I would have that would stray me away from the standers is that most of our properties have some sort of pin oak/dogwood/jap. maple and other assorted obstacles with minimal head room to get in tightly. Im over 6' and this is truthfully the only drawback to these units.

If I were on a stander I could not eliminate as much trimming as I do with the wb's. As far as the overall production for the hills in our area after watching these yahoo's on their Zs these past two seasons I wouldnt think theres much you couldnt "stand-on" to cut, probably less than 3% of the worthwhile accounts out there -LOL!!!

Another thing to keep in mind as far as parts inventory is concerned is that a 36 and a 52 use the same blades, so this can save alot of headaches down the road with "... Forgot that other set of blades!!!"

If you were to get into a deck larger than a 52 it should be a Z or a 3-wheeled rider IMHO.

[carlriv]

kutnkru you said
The major consideration I would have that would stray me away from the standers is that most of our properties have some sort of pin oak/dogwood/jap. maple and other assorted obstacles with minimal head room to get in tightly. Im over 6' and this is truthfully the only drawback to these units.

When operating the standers you can squat down on the platform and the only height consideration would be the height of the levers(for a short distance). Wether you are 5' or 6'6" you can get your body lower than the mower. For a reasonable distance you can operate with just your head above the levers.

Yes there are some hills that may be easier with a walk behind, but not many, and with some experience(and dry conditions) we cut it all. On a wet hill you will slide sooner with a stander than a walk behind. Another 200lbs pushing down the hill.

[kutnkru]

Originally posted by Darrell
nstownpark@juno.comI was under the impression he was with the parks dept and that with this in mind he would be spending the majority of his day "squatting" if his parks are anything like ours.

This is why I stand(no pun intended) behind the theory of a wb might be more suitable to his needs.

[cajuncutter]

Have you looked at a hustler shortcut yet? You can either stand or sit. I pulled mine up next to a "surfer" I thik it was called and there was not much difference in length between the 2. The only major difference was that I could sit if I wanted.

[yorkpaddy]

the post about a 3 wheeler made me remember that those things can hold a hill like a *******. they have a lot of weight spread very low.

[BRL]

Whew... Forgot to check this thread last time I was here. Lot's of ???'s I'll address in no particular order LOL

I have a 48" Deck. I have a small trailer and since it fits all the way into the garage loaded, I didn't upgrade & didn't go for the 52" deck when I bought. If I need another mower it will be a 52" Stander. I keep a box of rubber food service or surgical type gloves in the trucks & the garage for anytime we have to deal with greasy or dirty situations. I don't adjust the decks often. I tell the customers we will cut their lawns to the proper heights for their grasses and most are the same around here. If they want them scalped, I tell them to call someone else. So if I need to adjust on the road, I put on a pair of the rubber gloves, drive up one side of the ramp to hang one caster off, adjust it, then do the same for the other side. Takes about 40 seconds.

I don't deal with a lot of hilly terrain, but I do deal with a lot of drain culverts with steep hills. Some parts of those I would do with the weed wackers because the belt drive WB's were too dangerous. I can now do those sections with the Stander & save a lot of time. But a hydro walk behind may be just as safe in those locations? I prefer to be on the machine rather than walking behind it if it does start to slide down the hill. The anti tip rollers do work as they are supposed to on the Standers & I know this from experience.

I agree with Kutn, I have head butted a few tree limbs that I forgot about here & there on the properties. But as mentioned squatting when needed is not a problem, you just have to do it before the impact LOL. The only other negative I have about the 48" Stander is there is no off set of the deck to wheel width, so trimming around obstacles is harder than with the W\B's. Those 2 negatives are far outweighed by all of the positives IMO.

Those Hustler Short Cuts look like great machines from what I've seen.

[Guardian]

Thanks for the comments on deck height adjustment. I would like to be able to cut one height, but it simply isn't possible. We deal with centipede (2 1/2 to 3 1/2), St Augustine (2 dif. types ranging from 3 1/2 to 5") & Zoysia -think spongie stuff.

My last county pre-bid called for a 2" cut on bermuda. So I have too many adjustments. I will probably have either go with sentar and stick with eXmark Lazers.

Thanks

[yorkpaddy]

another thing that helps with hills is good tires. my tires are wearing down and they slide down hills especially when conditions are wet and muddy. I will change my tires soon. But if I was mowing only flat properties, i'd put another 150 hours on them

[BRL]

Yea Guardian, you need to get a mower with a floating deck for your situation. That stinks, but I'm sure you're charging accordingly for all of that extra work & time needed to adjust for all of those situations.

[Turfdude]

Originally posted by kutnkru
IMHO if you have a hydro walk and a stander adjusted properly you can cut steeper berms with the walk behind obviously. I have seen a few LMOs in our area operate the standers on some tricky sites with a little finesse rather easily too.

The major consideration I would have that would stray me away from the standers is that most of our properties have some sort of pin oak/dogwood/jap. maple and other assorted obstacles with minimal head room to get in tightly. Im over 6' and this is truthfully the only drawback to these units.

If I were on a stander I could not eliminate as much trimming as I do with the wb's. As far as the overall production for the hills in our area after watching these yahoo's on their Zs these past two seasons I wouldnt think theres much you couldnt "stand-on" to cut, probably less than 3% of the worthwhile accounts out there -LOL!!!



I don't think you've researched this machine enough!! I'm 6'2, and can use the stander under any tree height as long as the ooperator controls pass under the branches. You can squat behind the machine and look out the sid to mow under low branches only a limbo king could do w/ a walk behind. You can maneuver close to most any sized bed too. I have a pair of 48's an love them to death.
The use of high lift gators enables me to avoid double cutting most everywhere! I demoed a 52 before purchasing, but IMHO, I felt the 48 gave a better cut.
Don't adjust height of cut unless you have an electric impact gun w/ you as the "easiest way" to do so is to reposition blade spacers. We lift on yoke and push on stationary bar to raise deck and place on stand/jack for this and use compressor in shop.
For the little xtra over a hydro and velke/proslide, its definately worth it!!

Bob

[yorkpaddy]

you probably need to be a limbo king with a regular walkbehind. But with my toro, I can crouch behind and just push on the t-bar with my finger tips and get through some trees, the bar on the front of the t-bar pushes small branches out of the way. An exmark with ECS could get through some of the stuff with out putting your wrists in awkward positions

[LexingtonKYcutter]

You said you have to change to diffrent heights?????? The Great Dane Surfer is a floating deck that has quick easy adjustments. Not sure how high they can go but I checked them out and they pretty good.

[brucec32]

Originally posted by carlriv
I agree with tpirobert, and I am ser ious. Dont do it. We change height 2x per year after the spring season and then again in late September. For those lawns that you just cant cut because they grow too fast we do one of a few things (we have very few)
1. Double cut with Dane or Stander
2. Blow clumps to disperse
3. Cut with Hustler or just pick up clumps with Hustler

I do know that the Dane Super Surfer does have an easy height adjustment but I didn't like that machine.


In some parts of the country (transition zone) there are distinctly different types of grass to be mown, with quite different mowing heights. This strategy (one height fits all) wouldn't work here in Atlanta where we mow Bermuda at 2-3" or lower, and Tall Fescue at 2.5"-4", depending on the season.

[Envy Lawn Service]

I too change cutting heights fro job to job and sometimes I do it on the same job. I have a couple of accouts where I mow the grass a little closer right around the house where it's under foot. Then after I get out of that zone I raise the deck a little on each pass to "fade" it out to the tallest height I can mow. These folks like the looks of their grass very tall but don't care for getting their feet soaked with dew as they walk across the yard.

I'm really unfamiliar with fixed decks. But it does seem to me that some MFG would address the issue of making a fixed deck a little easier to change height on. To me changing spacers out on the front castors is no big deal to make a single adjustment going from lawn to lawn. But If one is cut at 4" and the other at 2" then you have a problem with deck pitch.

Seems to me that they could design something for the rear of the deck on WB's that would make it quick to change height back there too. ther has to be some way to make a sturdy quick connect between the engine deck and the mower deck.

I guess until ten, Gravely will have the best fixed deck design with the J-pin adjustable fixed deck.

Oh, here is a quote from Yazoo/Kees literature on their kutter hydro...

Adjust cutting height from 1 1/2" to 5" by easily repositioning the wheel motors.

Then it has the spacers on the castors. But I can't see how you can "easily" reposition wheel motors. Am I mising something? Also is this a common adjustment among fixed WB's?

[freepoint15]

After using w/bs for several years and recently converting to standers-I would never go back to w/bs.The standers are so much more productive-not to mention the wear and tear saved on your legs.

[grassdaddy]

Originally posted by freepoint15
After using w/bs for several years and recently converting to standers-I would never go back to w/bs.The standers are so much more productive-not to mention the wear and tear saved o n your legs. Wait and try the new Hustler super w/b before ya set that in stone.their not granny's old pistol grips!:)

[brucec32]

Originally posted by Envy Lawn Service
I too change cutting heights fro job to job and sometimes I do it on the same job. I have a couple of accouts where I mow the grass a little closer right around the house where it's under foot. Then after I get out of that zone I raise the deck a little on each pass to "fade" it out to the tallest height I can mow. These folks like the looks of their grass very tall but don't care for getting their feet soaked with dew as they walk across the yard.

I'm really unfamiliar with fixed decks. But it does seem to me that some MFG would address the issue of making a fixed deck a little easier to change height on. To me changing spacers out on the front castors is no big deal to make a single adjustment going from lawn to lawn. But If one is cut at 4" and the other at 2" then you have a problem with deck pitch.

Seems to me that they could design something for the rear of the deck on WB's that would make it quick to change height back there too. ther has to be some way to make a sturdy quick connect between the engine deck and the mower deck.

I guess until ten, Gravely will have the best fixed deck design with the J-pin adjustable fixed deck.

Oh, here is a quote from Yazoo/Kees literature on their kutter hydro...



Then it has the spacers on the castors. But I can't see how you can "easily" reposition wheel motors. Am I mising something? Also is this a common adjustment among fixed WB's?

I also am mystified why they don't make it easier to change cutting height on fixed deck mowers. I read one manual, a Great Dane I think, that started with "remove rear wheels from machine"...lol. To think I used to complain about 4 pins on my toro floaters. I think it would be possible to engineer a system to do it faster, but perhaps the added cost would make them cost as much as a floater does anyway.

[Envy Lawn Service]

Brucec32,

I'd like to think I have come to a better understanding about fixed decks. I had a bad impression about the pitch of the deck getting all out of whack when changing heights. Here is a quote from another post containing an explaination of what I "think" is a better understanding of the issue.
Originally posted by Envy Lawn Service
PGT,

I used to think the same way about fixed decks and castor spacers. But after talking to a few people I think of it a little differently now.

It's more like rise and run on a roof. The wheel base front to back is the run. So it you drop the front 1/2" it then has a 1/2" rise front to back. But the blade lenght, tip to tip, is far shorter than the run (wheel base). So the blade pitch isn't 1/2" it's less. So the longer the blade is and the farther the rear blade tip is from the center of the front wheel, the more the blade pitch is effected. But after a lot of adjustment, it would get out of pitch.

Am I not right here guys???:confused:

However, I am not saying I don't like Gravely's fixed deck design a heck of a lot better! The J-pin adjustment is nicer by far...
But hey, floaters are much sweeter ;)

[Bluesteel]

I have a design for an adapter plate that would make it easier to adjust the rear-wheel height on a fixed-deck mower. Might take 3 to 5 minutes per side. However, I don't know how much demand there would be for something like this.

[Envy Lawn Service]

Bluesteel,

I'd say the faster and easier it was to change, the higher the demand. Personally, I'm curious to see what Yazoo/Kees thinks is a way to "quickly & easily" the rear wheel motors....My dealer doesn't have one in stock right now.

[Awilkinson]

Just thought I would put in my two cents. I am getting ready to go with the stander. My dealer is GREAT! He has given me the dealer price list for his wright products. He is only going to charge me a 200 dollar set up fee over his cost. If anybody wants the price sheet, let me know and I will scan it in and e- mail it to you. After seeing what dealers pay, there is no need to pay what we have been for machines!!!! This price sheet shows dealer cost, dealer specials on certain models, and the MSRP.

e-mail @ eightseconds@msn.com.

:angel: