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View Full Version : Dead brown patches in St. Augustine


mowerman87
10-27-2008, 09:20 PM
A once-lush augustine yard has developed dead patches all over a backyard of one of my clients. It happened over the last couple of weeks and the grass has never had this issue before. the front yard is perfect turf. I would like to some suggestions as to what it could be and the best treatments given the time of year. the yard is located in Crowley, Texas which is just south of Fort Worth.

ABeautifulCutAboveInc.
10-27-2008, 10:34 PM
Gotta have pics man. Could be a number of things. For starters did you look into the grass and soil? Any visible signs of pests? Did you did down in the soil and check?

ICT Bill
10-28-2008, 12:04 PM
It sounds like take all patch, it can turn a nice St Augustine lawn to dirt in a week. I am not sure about licensing in Texas as far as fungicides.

We do have a product, NPP,that will stop it, it melts fungus on contact, but it has no residual and is not registered as a fungicide, it just has an interesting off label effect. It is actually a form of glucosamine and is very safe to use

We have been doing trials in south carolina with take all patch and brown patch, it stops it right away with new growth in 3 to 4 days, you'll have to use it on as as needed basis though, again no residual

Contact your local extention agent and ask how you can bring a sample in for identification. It is better to know what you are trying to control than using the shot gun approach

JDUtah
10-29-2008, 12:39 PM
Bill, what tests have you done to find out that NPP had no residual as a fungicide? Last I checked you weren't sure? Why does it have no residual? Solar degradation? Bacterial degradation? Temperature? Obviously the fungi don't eat it? What keeps it from sticking around? Thanks in advance!

Mowerman,
I agree with ABCAI, it could be one of several things, you haven't ruled out bugs yet... pics? Do the coffee pot test?

growingdeeprootsorganicly
10-29-2008, 05:31 PM
melts fungus on contact huh???? bogus....


chitosan.. a more water soluble form of chitin.... it helps a plant by tricking the plant to think it's being attacked by an insect or a fungus because they contain chitin in them..ahhhh.. all insects contain chitin in their structure aswell as fungi,

a plant senses the chitin on it and in response start to strengthen tissue or in some plants they release an enzyme called chitinase that helps dissolve the chitin in the attacking bug....story doesn't end there.. most chitinase enzymes are produced by bacteria to help break down and consume the chitin....... since chitin is a hard material to degrade and is a components of fungi bacteria only produce the enzyme to break it down....that im aware of.

now if lots of chitin material get in the soil you would think there would be more of these type of bacteria growing in #'s feeding and producing the enzyme chitinase to break it down.....great right??? no... i have herd you and others say it will help kill grubs and root eating nematodes what about all the other benificials in the soil that contain chitin in their structure????? benificial,fungi,nematodes,earth worms ete ete.
what happens to them since the bacteria are producing more chitinsan enzymes????

oh wait....... bills says it only affects the bad guys??????????

melts fungus??? i don't think i have read you say that before??? only the uninformed have said that in the past......now you bill???? come on?

great... if it helps the plant above surface strengthen it self from disease and insect attack by spraying the foliage awesome! but don't say it melts fungus and doesn't hurt benificals at the same time on the surface and in the soil...

JDUtah
10-29-2008, 07:07 PM
Deeproots,

I thought his product was chitinase not chitosan? (Bill chime in?) If it is Chitinase it can melt fungus on contact. After all, that is what the enzyme is excreted by plants and bacteria to do! (Dissolve chitin as a food source) If you harvest chitinase and spray it.. it could give great results... (again Bill chime in... is NPP Chitinase or Chitosan?)

BTW Bill has used the term hydrolize before.

Also,
Killing all beneficials that utilize chitin in their structure CAN be a problem. That is why I asked about Bill saying there was no residual.. if no residual you can apply a good CT and reintroduce beneficials... the next day even...? Spot spraying should be ok too if horizontal leaching isn't a problem...

Another,
I think a foliar app of chitinase to combat a foliar disease could potentially not affect soil microbes...

Lol so Bill, two questions...
Is it Chitinase or Chitosan?
Why no soil residual? Bio-degredation? Solar? Leaching? Other?

ICT Bill
10-30-2008, 06:35 PM
Seems like a lot of words are being put into my mouth
Not us, yet, but there is a very similar product registered with the epa as a fungicide, its effect is by hydrolysing the fungi on contact. This is an off labeled use as we are not registered as a fungicide (pending). The reason there is little to no residual is because it is used as a food by the microbes, it is actually one of the best microbial foods out there. it gets gobbled up quick

Labeled ingredients include 2.5% chitosan. whether or not other things are in there I will let the label speak for itself. We have, in trials, seen take all patch in St Augustine stopped immediately with new growth in 2 to 3 days. labeled instructions are "use as needed"

So if used as a foliar with good to great leaf coating it (1 to 2 ounces per 1000) will indeed melt fungi on contact, if it is used at 4 times the foliar rate (4 ounces per 1000) and watered in as a drench so that it gets down into the soil profile it induces chitinase production in chitinylitic bacteria. these types of bacteria are almost always in rhizosphere and not free ranging in soils. If something comes into the rhizosphere (root feeding grub or nematode) while these microbes are producing there toxin they will turn to mush.

In recent testing with the University of Rhode Island we had 90% control in stunt nematode and 60% control in lance. Lance is a root burrowing nematode, they are very difficult to control once inside the plant. Testing was done on 2 seperate golf courses and on 4 greens each course. We will have results back from the University of Florida soon

One of the poisons that has been banned (because it was so dangerous) for nematodes, nemacure, only claims 50% reduction

growingdeeprootsorganicly
10-30-2008, 07:49 PM
gee bill you really did the sales man shuffle on that response???:cool2:
more reason not to trust you and your products.
you would get more respect from me if you flew straight and not sideways

can we see the label on your product??? since it not on your web site like the rest of your products....or do we have to buy it first????

good rule of thumb don't trust products that will not say or try to hide contents. update to for you....your boy colonel sanders ain't keeping secretes anymore


i disagree and have alot of questions for you from that response but im not going to waste my time now.... but i have to only ask you this one

what about the beneficial's?????????? no harm there??????????

chitinase producing bacteria only in the rhizosphere??? i highly doubt that

ICT Bill
10-30-2008, 09:09 PM
Charlie, charlie, charlie, your inability to understand and cope is obvious. If you do not want to buy our products, that is completely your decision.

To bash products you have never used is infantile, to critique results you have never looked at is ridiculous. To say with such vigor that you are better shows your inability to structure and work through issues

we are confident of our products and stand behind them 100 percent, we get calls everyday on the results of our product and have never had one phone call or email that was negative.

please keep your negativity and mean demeanor somewhere else, I will now refer to you as "Gerry" from now on

goodnight Gerry

growingdeeprootsorganicly
10-30-2008, 09:41 PM
bla bla bla

you seem to bring it out some how??????????????????

as usual you don't answer the questions??????

duck and dive........................salesman

growingdeeprootsorganicly
10-30-2008, 10:29 PM
bill,

one more thing too, it's got nothing to do with being better,smarter, or what ever you what to say to devert...

it's got to do with TRUTH and HONESTY.........ever heard of it?

Barefoot James
10-30-2008, 10:49 PM
I have treated lots of fungus issues on fescue grass - a black power mold that start's out grey and turns black in the day. Also a spider web type mold that grows from being too wet at night - it looks like webbing but is actually fungus hyphe, it is in spots about 6 to 10 inches in diameter and kills the grass (that day) the sun dries it out in the day and grass is DEAD in hours. In all cases I sprayed once and the problem was eliminated and did not spread.

Many holly shrubs had a grey mold growing on the leafs - one spray 3 oz per gal and it eliminated the problem.

Roses that were treated regular (every 10 days to 14) NEVER got black spot, leaf mold or even spider mites). Roses right next to them untreated with NPP, got everything, even roses treated with fungicides (every 10 days to two weeks) got black spot. So in my opinion here in KY NPP is more effective and safer than fungicides.

I also sprayed tomatoes, berry plants and some crab apple trees (prone to rust mold) and had great results - these were all prior to any out breaks that in prior years had all types of fungus problems.

NPP is awesome! AND Bill has even improved it - so I'm really looking forward to my next fungus problems

JDUtah
11-01-2008, 01:08 AM
gee bill you really did the sales man shuffle on that response???:cool2:
more reason not to trust you and your products.
you would get more respect from me if you flew straight and not sideways

can we see the label on your product??? since it not on your web site like the rest of your products....or do we have to buy it first????

good rule of thumb don't trust products that will not say or try to hide contents. update to for you....your boy colonel sanders ain't keeping secretes anymore


i disagree and have alot of questions for you from that response but im not going to waste my time now.... but i have to only ask you this one

what about the beneficial's?????????? no harm there??????????

chitinase producing bacteria only in the rhizosphere??? i highly doubt that

Charlie,
Bill answered my questions just fine. I know you have beef with him. As you know I have had a run in or two with him as well. I think it is about time you give him a break. Yes he is a salesman. Yes he pays to be a sponsor. In my opinion you should thank him for that... his (and others) sponsoring this site is what makes this site possible. You wouldn't even have this site to share your feelings if it wan't for sales programs like Bills. I understand he is a little more aggressive than you like but I do not think he is all bad. He does want to help the earth. His company does want to create good products. They have upgraded their 123 formula at least once this year. They are coming out with more products. Some will do better than others... and some will do better in one situation than another. Yes his 123 did not work for me. But I have talked to other people behind the scene who have seen good results with it. (Bill has also graciously worked with me and helped determine some reasons it might not have worked.) Sorry for the long rant... my fingers got carried away. But I just want to say again... maybe it is time you learn to co-exist with him? Neither of you are going away. And both of you are going to improve your products and services. And you are BOTH on the same organic team, different roles, but same team...


Bill,
Thank you. I feel completely satisfied with your answer. Are you planning on ever developing a chitonase product?

Barefoot,
Thank you for sharing your hands on success using NPP for fungal control...

treegal1
11-03-2008, 08:16 PM
I have tried it (NPP) on 2 occasions

first time, milky liquid with some" pulp" worked great, killed everything in the whole yard and smoked a worm bed.

second time, dark liquid, blue brown in color, real watery, did nothing, got some real poor results that needed call backs and one needed new sod. I call bill the day we got the new(second batch) jug of NPP and ask what gives ?? did the color change for a reason??? he said it was just the color that went bad and they where working on it. then after the complaint calls again ask Bill whats going on with the NPP, he said that they where working on it and he would get back to me...................that was a while ago.

I went back to using a different product.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
11-04-2008, 08:41 AM
we are confident of our products and stand behind them 100 percent, we get calls everyday on the results of our product and have never had one phone call or email that was negative.





........?:nono:

treegal1
11-04-2008, 04:37 PM
........?:nono:point was just let him go don't keep poking him, less stress is good......

poolboy
11-04-2008, 06:35 PM
Top dress the areas with 2 year old leaf-mold compost, if you can fine it.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
11-05-2008, 08:19 PM
tree,
i hear ya..