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NightLightingFX
11-05-2008, 10:33 PM
I have hospital that is very interested in having me create a narrow beam effect for their facility. An effect very similar to an effect I created for another hospital see my website or www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=202036&page=2 My challenge is this: The hospital I am talking to got sued because a little kid touched an MR16 light fixture that was set in concrete and the little kid got burned.

I need to use the vary narrow par 36 lamps to create the effect. I would use your typical par 36 fixture with gimble ring etc and top lens cover /or Uniques' Appollo fixture. The problem is that glass lens still gets too hot to the touch. I am thinking of putting a larger container with glass top over the top of the "Appollo" fixture. Any ideas on how I can do this?

A side note - This is the perfect prospect to pitch Jame's LED lamps for the low voltage fixtures they have turned off due to their law suite.
~Ned

Eden Lights
11-06-2008, 02:32 AM
You will find that if you move up into some type of spec grade product the lens temps will be inherently cooler due to larger housings, thicker glass, thicker materials, better design, and etc. You will even find some double lens, cool touch, recessed fixtures designed for your application. Your not going to find them discussed much here, so call your local lighting reps and discuss your application. The ALLscape SL43 comes to mind right off, but I would talk to BK, Bega, and some others also. I would pre qualify these guys right off before you start looking at fixtures that range from $300-$1000 a piece, could save you alot of time.

Mike M
11-06-2008, 07:06 AM
Eddie's feedback is much better than a quick LED fix, IMO. You can get 35 watt equiv, but I'm not sure about the beam you need. I would try before I buy. James should give you beam specs and a lamp at least. I know with PAR's you can get amazingly long and narrow beams, not sure if manu's replicated that with LED fixtures or bulbs yet, unless you get into the "white power" stuff.

LED narrow beam is a topic I've been interested in bringing up here. But I lost interest when I had to move into a cardboard box.

NiteTymeIlluminations
11-06-2008, 08:34 AM
I'm not sure what kind or size of hospital you are talking about. But if you are not 100% of installation and code requirements for lighting of this kind I'd be backing away or at least getting a larger electrical firm to partner up with for the design and installation. YOU could get sued, not the hospital, the next time.

I agree with Eden light's advise about other lines. I wouldnt consider using nightscaping, unique, kichler or the likes on any commercial project especially a hospital. I'd consider getting a commerical line rep involved, contact your Cooper rep, or the Philips rep. You'll need to research the wattage you will be using, what kind of surface you will be installing it in, and the code for your area (what temp that lens can be) I know in Europe the lens has to be cooler than here in the states.

Good luck.

Tomwilllight
11-06-2008, 10:40 AM
Ned,

I strongly suggest you avoid incurring additional liability by experimenting with any retrofits. You will OWN the retrofit and the additional liability. The amount of R&D it has taken to develop "cool lens" technology is considerable and you don't have the resources.

I've seen and touched both the Bega and BK cool lens fixtures. They work beautifully.

My advice: Talk to your lawyer and do what they tell you to do.

Good luck and ONLY talk to your lawyer; listen closely and do exactly what your lawyer tells you to do.

Tom

NightLightingFX
11-06-2008, 11:43 AM
Eddie's feedback is much better than a quick LED fix, IMO. You can get 35 watt equiv, but I'm not sure about the beam you need. I would try before I buy. James should give you beam specs and a lamp at least. I know with PAR's you can get amazingly long and narrow beams, not sure if manu's replicated that with LED fixtures or bulbs yet, unless you get into the "white power" stuff.

LED narrow beam is a topic I've been interested in bringing up here. But I lost interest when I had to move into a cardboard box.

I mentioned in my 1st comment that the LEDs are a side note. An MR16 lamp can't do what I want let alone an LED. However, This facility has some neglected MR16 fixtures we could possibly retro with LEDs - That would be down the road.

NightLightingFX
11-06-2008, 11:50 AM
Tom - I won't do any experimenting on this project. Nitetyme - Yes I am aware of code requirements. This facility has onsite electricians I will work with and oversee any code problems. Eddie - Thanks for the resource on fixtures designed for this purpose. I am going to check them out. Thanks all
~Ned

Mike M
11-06-2008, 09:23 PM
http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2008/05/02/led-light-bridge_jsLij_7071.jpg

A large scale municipal project with LED's.

Venturewest
11-07-2008, 09:11 AM
That's more medium scale I would say. http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2008/05/02/led-light-bridge_jsLij_7071.jpg

A large scale municipal project with LED's.

NightLightingFX
11-07-2008, 12:32 PM
The Facilities Manager checked out my other hospital project. (I used a mixture of Appollo and Big Bang fixtures - I used the Big Bang fixtures where concrete was next to the building.) He is comfortable and excited about using the Big Bang fixtures - He likes the cross of brass in the middle of the lens. Joey, there is a good chance I will have another good commercial project for you to promote.

NiteTymeIlluminations
11-07-2008, 02:20 PM
so just being curious what are the lense temps with that with a 50 watt narrow spot and what are the recommendations/codes in teh US?

Tomwilllight
11-07-2008, 03:09 PM
My apologies Ned,

I misread your post and thought the child was burned on YOUR job. I'm really relieved to realize that I misunderstood and that you aren't facing that kind of liability.

I was first involved with cool face technology when I up-lighted a flag pole that was located just across from a swimming beach in CT a couple of years ago. All concerned were really worried about the possibility that a bare-footed child could step on a hot lens. After reading a few stories about lights burning the bottoms of children's feet, I got worried too.

Tom

JoeyD
11-07-2008, 06:23 PM
The Facilities Manager checked out my other hospital project. (I used a mixture of Appollo and Big Bang fixtures - I used the Big Bang fixtures where concrete was next to the building.) He is comfortable and excited about using the Big Bang fixtures - He likes the cross of brass in the middle of the lens. Joey, there is a good chance I will have another good commercial project for you to promote.

Ned let me know if I can help in anyway! Dont fear using our products on a commercial project. We have LOTS of architects specifying us on commercial projects as we speak. The fact that so many architects and specifiers are aligning themselves with us shows thatthey agree and are confident in us, as you should be here.

As for the cool lens stuff you may want to go outside of us to obtain a light that clearly protects you from having a similar situation. Although we belive as does ETL believe our products are plenty safe they can still be hot to the touch especially to a young child.

Mike M
11-07-2008, 07:32 PM
Only someone from the west would have such a large scale/medium scale perception issue.

I had a request for the name of the bridge, and I'm surprised that the particular requester lives due north of it on the same river.

Verrazano-Narrows Bridge over the Hudson.

http://www.ecofriend.org/entry/verrazano-narrows-bridge-gets-a-brilliant-green-makeover-with-spectacular-led-lighting/

The article is a great read re: LED's.

NightLightingFX
11-07-2008, 11:16 PM
As for the cool lens stuff you may want to go outside of us to obtain a light that clearly protects you from having a similar situation. Although we belive as does ETL believe our products are plenty safe they can still be hot to the touch especially to a young child.

As I mentioned earlier, the Facilities Manager liked the Big Bang's "cross shield." He is comfortable using that fixture. However, Nitetyme's question re: 50 watt temp kind of has me thinking. I originally wasn't going to use a 50 watt VNSP. I demo'd using 35 watt VNSP. It looked alright but this facility 63 ft high about 15 feet higher than my 1st project. I think a 50 watt VNSP will look better. Will a 50 watt lamp create significantly more heat on the fixture than a 35 watt lamp - if someone was to touch the fixture?

Eden Lights
11-09-2008, 01:12 AM
Ned let me know if I can help in anyway! Dont fear using our products on a commercial project. We have LOTS of architects specifying us on commercial projects as we speak. The fact that so many architects and specifiers are aligning themselves with us shows thatthey agree and are confident in us, as you should be here.

As for the cool lens stuff you may want to go outside of us to obtain a light that clearly protects you from having a similar situation. Although we belive as does ETL believe our products are plenty safe they can still be hot to the touch especially to a young child.

Joey, what ever Nate's paying you it isn't enough. I believe you could spin anything.:)

JoeyD
11-11-2008, 11:26 AM
As I mentioned earlier, the Facilities Manager liked the Big Bang's "cross shield." He is comfortable using that fixture. However, Nitetyme's question re: 50 watt temp kind of has me thinking. I originally wasn't going to use a 50 watt VNSP. I demo'd using 35 watt VNSP. It looked alright but this facility 63 ft high about 15 feet higher than my 1st project. I think a 50 watt VNSP will look better. Will a 50 watt lamp create significantly more heat on the fixture than a 35 watt lamp - if someone was to touch the fixture?


50watts will create MUCH more heat. And I will always be the first to admit when we may not have the right product for you to use. Although the Big Bang will hold up with a 50w lamp for ever we only had it tested with a 35w lamp in it therefore it is only ETL approved for up to 35watts. I think it would be very wise for you if you do infact need a 50w lamp that you go outside our line to find a fixture with the proper approval. Currently our Apollo would be a light with the 50w approval.


Joey, what ever Nate's paying you it isn't enough. I believe you could spin anything.:)


Where was the spin in what I said Eddie? I am sure you are being more fun about this than serious so as I reply understand I know you were not trying to incite anything. But we are being specified more and more every day despite the fact that some manufacturers including Kichler are trying their very best to continue to bring us down with their lame 1995 UL1838 arguments. Even going as far as putting togeather a full written piece to send to all of their distributors trying to bash our 24v system and directly attack us of trying to pull the wool over our customers eyes as if 24v is not a better system and we know it. Or that it is so dangerous, never acknowledging that we preach inline fusing according to load and not relying upon faulty 25a secondary fuse protection as the best form of protection. This was the last thing we expected from Kichler. So as for spin, I would look to the others for "spin".

I try and be as factfull as possible while at the same time offering up what little info I may have regarding a product or situation. Sometimes to factfull, as other importers have sent letters from lawyers asking us to not share their story on this public forum. This industry's manufacturers and importers can be so lame. It seems as if no one can just do something by themselves without trying to bash or fight another competitor at the same time. I get sucked into it but I never just come right out and bring down another manufacturer as an offensive move. Why? Because we have enough positive stuff in our own line to talk about that we dont need too!!

Sorry Eddie, again this is not directed at you, I just read this post coming on the heels of reading this stupid letter that Kichler sent out.

Eden Lights
11-13-2008, 04:10 PM
Just in fun Joey, I have not seen the letter.

Chris J
11-13-2008, 09:52 PM
I'd like to see this letter that is causing you to bash publicly. Can you/will you forward?

Chris J
11-13-2008, 11:55 PM
By the way, I'm an avid user of Kichler products (as you know) and this is the first I've heard of any slander against Unique's 24v system. I'm also a user of multiple other manus so, the mud slinging thing has to originate somewhere. You are the first that has made it to our ears....Joey?

JoeyD
11-17-2008, 01:14 PM
I got you Eddie!!

Chris,
Trust me, in no way did we start this "mud slinging".......It was titled to Kichler Showroom Reps and Green Industry Reps and was delivered to my desk by a good local installer of ours. It was all about Kichler bashing our 24v system to make LED look better. We have no beef with Kichler, we never said one thing about their LED. Maybe a concern of longeveity, testing, or overall performance was discussed amongst individuals but never once did we take our concerns public to the point of making a 5 page document completely bashing them. If anything I was the first to admit that the Kichler LED looked pretty good. Let me make it clear that I am not bashing, I am simply defending. I figured if this installer had the doucment that their best customers also would have had it. Maybe it was sent to targeted customers?..........I too was shocked that Kichler would do this. At any rate, I was hot when I read it that morning, and still to a degree angry that they would do this but rest assured that our owners and sales manager laughed and were not shocked. It's just another attack, something we are used to have happen when we have a good idea.

S&MLL
11-17-2008, 07:24 PM
Well Joey most do say when every other manu takes one step forward you guys take 2 steps backwards. Everyone is making the push for LEDs but you guys have only tested drop in mr16s. No reason to start a war here. Kichler doesn't have reps on lawnsite. So I give you guys credit for being on here. But from what I have seen/ heard 15 volt is max. So how are you guys pushing a product that is 24 volt? Granted I still use one version of MDL that goes up to 22 volt, but that was quite a bit of time ago. Would rather drop down to 8 gauge and follow the electrical code. But as far as I'm concerned if one manufacturer wants to bash another........Keep it to yourselves. I'm quite tired of seeing certain companies on here trying to push their product and bashing other guys.

JoeyD
11-17-2008, 08:03 PM
Your 100% RIGHT. I am tired of seeing manufacturers do the same thing. Sometimes I really hate being involved and having to be the guy to defend our company knowing that some people will just look at me as another guy bashing. You didn't see the letter so your take is I am the one opening the can of worms. I know a lot of people reading this saw the letter before so they may view it differently but bottom line it sucks!

It is stupid and childish and un professional. I hate that I care enough to allow myself to get sucked into it. I am just glad I have hobbies and things outside of this industry and job because sometimes the things that go on inside this industry just make me sick! I don't know how our owners or others who are much more involved in the industry handle it. We aren't afraid to defend ourselves or stand up for our products and systems so that gets taken as bashing and argumentative when most of the time it is defensive.

I have been around a long time now, long enough to see a lot of good times and a lot of bad. We have been on the other side of the fence from all manufacturers from day one so why I feel that it should change is stupid. We never really cared what the rest of the industry thought and that is why were were different and had better ideas and drove the industry to do new things. To this day people still think CODE says 15v or less, its crazy? Do people even read the NEC or do they just believe everything manufacturers tell them? Has anyone even read Article 411 of the NEC? Does anyone really know what UL is in relation to the NEC and how they have NO affiliation? Tell me what makes 16v safer than 15v. Tell me why 120v is safe to run in a landscape but 24v isn't.

S&MLL, this isn't me attacking you at all. This is me explaining honestly how I feel about all these lame arguments that so many manufacturers have against us despite us still being in business. Dont you think if we were promoting dangerous and illegal activity they would have shut us down YEARS ago?

Bottom line is this isn't the first time I have gotten so frustrated that I had to come out right and defend Unique, but it will be the last.

worx
11-17-2008, 10:37 PM
Joey if someone was attacking me or my business to promote themselves I would unleash on them. Take no shame in defending the honor of Unique if someone attempts to sling mud for personal gain! Most people work very hard to build a great reputation and to have it called into question for no viable reason is wrong.

S&MLL
11-18-2008, 02:22 AM
I understand where your coming from Joey. Believe me I may not be 55 and been around for ever but I do have a pretty successful lighting company for my age. But I see nothing but older grown men play childish games with me. Just nothing but pure jealousy. But I have learned this. Who is the one working right now??? So I ask myself that question.

You might want to find something to say to yourself as well. Led, 24volt, fuse, non fuse, photocell/ gps timer. To each their own.


BTW I would never take that as an attack. I just know in Jersey at least if it doesnt have UL it does not go in on my homes.



Either way lets close this thread.


It started out fine and worked its way down to this.

JoeyD
11-18-2008, 10:50 AM
Thats the problem S&MLL. We have UL/ETL listings on EVERYTHING! We just dont fall into UL1838 which is 300w 15v maximum, its a LIMITATION. Of course we have 1838 models but we want to give the industry more freedom, and with that you dont have to sacrifice saftey. Our form of in line fusing at the Hub and TF is better than 25a breakers. And what angered me even more is that UL1838 is being superceded by UL2108 which will allow well beyond 15v in the landscape which is somethign we ahev been preaching since day 1!. They just ignored that fact. Just a few years ago Kichler had a 22v transformer. It was an attack and I was just trying to again go on the defense.

But at any rate, you are correct. Manufacturer BS has to stop. I need to stop contributing. Heck just a few months ago I was threatened by a lawsuit because an importer felt I was spreading too much news about them here. LOL ITS CRAZY!

TXNSLighting
11-18-2008, 12:06 PM
Your 100% RIGHT. I am tired of seeing manufacturers do the same thing. Sometimes I really hate being involved and having to be the guy to defend our company knowing that some people will just look at me as another guy bashing. You didn't see the letter so your take is I am the one opening the can of worms. I know a lot of people reading this saw the letter before so they may view it differently but bottom line it sucks!

It is stupid and childish and un professional. I hate that I care enough to allow myself to get sucked into it. I am just glad I have hobbies and things outside of this industry and job because sometimes the things that go on inside this industry just make me sick! I don't know how our owners or others who are much more involved in the industry handle it. We aren't afraid to defend ourselves or stand up for our products and systems so that gets taken as bashing and argumentative when most of the time it is defensive.

I have been around a long time now, long enough to see a lot of good times and a lot of bad. We have been on the other side of the fence from all manufacturers from day one so why I feel that it should change is stupid. We never really cared what the rest of the industry thought and that is why were were different and had better ideas and drove the industry to do new things. To this day people still think CODE says 15v or less, its crazy? Do people even read the NEC or do they just believe everything manufacturers tell them? Has anyone even read Article 411 of the NEC? Does anyone really know what UL is in relation to the NEC and how they have NO affiliation? Tell me what makes 16v safer than 15v. Tell me why 120v is safe to run in a landscape but 24v isn't.

S&MLL, this isn't me attacking you at all. This is me explaining honestly how I feel about all these lame arguments that so many manufacturers have against us despite us still being in business. Dont you think if we were promoting dangerous and illegal activity they would have shut us down YEARS ago?

Bottom line is this isn't the first time I have gotten so frustrated that I had to come out right and defend Unique, but it will be the last.

Dont you dare back down. I like a manu who is willing to stand up for them selves, and what they believe in. Im with you 100%!

dusktildawn
11-19-2008, 10:48 AM
you guys are a laughing stock and seriously need to get a life

irrig8r
11-19-2008, 12:13 PM
you guys are a laughing stock and seriously need to get a life


You again. :hammerhead:

I thought we got rid of you six months ago:

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=222120


Which one of these is your real website, and why have you been mass emailing all the lighting contractors here?

http://www.landscape-lighting.net/index.html

http://www.gardenlightinc.com/

dusktildawn
11-19-2008, 02:17 PM
not exactly sure what you mean by that, but I'll play along. are you kidding me with these thousands of posts in a chat room. I guess it's better than drinking your profits away that is unless you're drinking and posting which is probably likely.

S&MLL
11-19-2008, 02:47 PM
Dusk keep to yourself buddy. You have not shown any sort of valuble input here. "all over nj" Looks like your truck must drink most of your profits away driving all over the place.

irrig8r
11-19-2008, 02:52 PM
not exactly sure what you mean by that, but I'll play along. are you kidding me with these thousands of posts in a chat room. I guess it's better than drinking your profits away that is unless you're drinking and posting which is probably likely.

Aha. I see. Newbie doesn't know the difference between a "chat room" and a vBulletin forum, and is calling who a "laughing stock"?

S&MLL
11-19-2008, 02:55 PM
Ha that guy is silly. Maybe its mr scalla

NightScenes
11-19-2008, 03:32 PM
Joey, you and I have a pretty darn good relationship and I like you alot but I feel that I have to jump in here. I am speaking on my own here and in no way am I representing anyone else. I have a lot or respect for both Unique and it's management and Kichler and their management.

I have seen this letter and it does not "bash" Unique. It is a piece put together by Kichler to show it's distributors ways to defend their LED system against the Unique 24 volt system. Since Unique is really pushing this system it stands to reason the their competitors will try to counter with something of their own. This is just doing business and nothing more, in my opinion.

I do not see Kichler on here talking bad about Unique. I don't see them doing anything in public against Unique. They are talking to their distributors about their products and how they compare to their competition. I'm sure that Unique has probably put out materials of their own explaining why they feel that their 24 volt system is the way to go. If you haven't done so, I sure would suggest it. I'm betting that all of your distributors can defend your system against a 12 volt system, right? Didn't you put together a comparison chart or something to point out the differences? Unfortunately, Unique is the only company with a 24 volt system to compare to. This means that if any company wants to demonstrate the difference between their system and a 24 volt system, they will have to compare against Unique.

Joey, I think it was an unfair thing for you to come on here and talk this way about a competitor just because they used your product in a comparison. I'm sure that you would not want any other manufacture to do the same to you.

Those are my thoughts on this whole mess.

irrig8r
11-19-2008, 07:24 PM
Interesting perspective Paul. Sure wish someone would send a copy of this letter along so we could judge for ourselves...(I've already asked Joey via PM)

mellow-mower
11-19-2008, 11:09 PM
Mike, I just wanted to point out that the VZ bridge acually crosses lower NY Harbor. The hudson does not start until you get to the tip of Manhatten Island.

Mike M
11-20-2008, 07:10 AM
Oh, I was thinking of the Tapanzee, off 87 north of NYC. Thanks for the correction. The V-N connects Staten Is with Brooklyn.

mellow-mower
11-20-2008, 10:07 AM
You got it! Sorry man, I lived on that section of water for years.

JoeyD
11-24-2008, 10:53 AM
Joey, you and I have a pretty darn good relationship and I like you alot but I feel that I have to jump in here. I am speaking on my own here and in no way am I representing anyone else. I have a lot or respect for both Unique and it's management and Kichler and their management.

I have seen this letter and it does not "bash" Unique. It is a piece put together by Kichler to show it's distributors ways to defend their LED system against the Unique 24 volt system. Since Unique is really pushing this system it stands to reason the their competitors will try to counter with something of their own. This is just doing business and nothing more, in my opinion.

I do not see Kichler on here talking bad about Unique. I don't see them doing anything in public against Unique. They are talking to their distributors about their products and how they compare to their competition. I'm sure that Unique has probably put out materials of their own explaining why they feel that their 24 volt system is the way to go. If you haven't done so, I sure would suggest it. I'm betting that all of your distributors can defend your system against a 12 volt system, right? Didn't you put together a comparison chart or something to point out the differences? Unfortunately, Unique is the only company with a 24 volt system to compare to. This means that if any company wants to demonstrate the difference between their system and a 24 volt system, they will have to compare against Unique.

Joey, I think it was an unfair thing for you to come on here and talk this way about a competitor just because they used your product in a comparison. I'm sure that you would not want any other manufacture to do the same to you.

Those are my thoughts on this whole mess.

Paul, I see your take here and maybe I read to far into this letter but if it was just simply a comparison as you say then why would they end it like this.....

"Often times, the value of a new idea is over hyped and then underperforms. It is likely that, afer the smoke clears, the 24v concept will dissapear. Until that occurs, please use this information to clear any confusion in the mnds of distributors and contractors."

Not just a comparison note in my opinion. Neither is the entire first page which is trying to make it seem as if our system is not listed or safe to use. Had it just been our charts and a real comparison it would have been no big deal but this was a letter to attack our system.

Either way, it doesnt matter. My defending this does more harm then good it seems as so many people expect us manufacturers to remain mum when feeling attacked. However I do fully respect your opinion Paul as I respect anyone elses here.