paver base compaction equipment

[steveair]

hello,

I've been looking to buy another compactor this season, and trying to figure out what it is that I need and also, what I can afford.

According to some literature, I'm hearing that a unit should have a minimum compaction force of about 9000 lbf. In this range, the plates are all reversible.

My problem is I don't think I can swing the 9-11k for a unit like this.

Was wondering what others use for equip? Around here, the 'norm' is you typical plate with a force of around 3000 lbf. I would really like to make a step in the right direction and invest in more serious equip this year as I want the best installation I can have.

How many guys out there actually have invested in larger compactors, or should I say, the specified compactors, for there business.

It's a interesting subject to me because no one in my area really uses anything bigger than a 3000 lbf.

Would I be nuts to think I need a compactor in the 9000 lbf range?

Also, what is a good source for used units. New are just too expensive, and I would like to find a decent used unit at a reasonable price. Most rental centers in my area don't rent many larger units, so I am thinking of calling a company like United rentals or the such. Anybody have any experience in this?

steve

[steveair]

One quick thing.

Ideally, my compaction setup would be this.

A 9000 lbf or better for base compaction.

A 5000 lbf for paver compaction.

A smaller plate (17 inch) or jumping jack for those hard to reach areas.

Any comments on this 'dream list'?

steve

[General Grounds]

:blob3: steve, we use the 5000lb, unit for pavers, works real well, i purchased my stow w/ a 5hp honda for $1,300, it also has a water tank on it and is reversible. Tony

[paul]

Steve look for a plate that mounts to your Dingo they make one thats 43" wide 5500 lbs http://coneqtecuniversal.com/compaction.html

I'm waiting for them to make one in the 60 to 68" range, right now they are 73" which is just a bit too big. Our rollers for our skid steers are 59" which is just a bit narrow.

One worry I would have is working near house foundations with the heavier units you can break a wall! (wall concrete is rated at 5000 psi after 30 days) a 9000 lb unit can damage it.

[steveair]

Paul,

thank you for the dingo link! I've been searching everywhere for one.

I think I will look into that option first. Just scared to see the price. A lot of times, the attachments cost almost as much as buying a seperate stand alone machine.

I wouldn't have thought about house problems. I really don't have any experience with the bigger plates, so its all new to me.

I was thinking that a 5000lbf would be a decent all around machine. If the job was very large, I guess it would be more practical to just rent a large compator as needed. I just want something more substantial than the 3000lbf I currently have.

By the way, what do people find works best for the actual paver comaction. I know 5000lbf is ideal, but I've always used a 3000lbf?

steve

[paul]

Steve my main concern is speed, I want a unit to to do an area fast and level, larger units do this smaller ones follow the grade more. Think of it this way, do you get a flatter surface with a small rake or a larger rake. Plate tampers work the same way. smaller imperfections are leveled out by using larger surface area speeding up the grading prossess.

Cost, I don't know about the 43" units but the 73" units run $8K and rollers used run about $4K.

[PAPS]

just a quick question... i have a brand new Weber VB50 and its about 3000 lb compaction....
1. Is that not compaction for patios and walks??? i always thought it was... (hope so)

2. True or False : When doing a driveway... this Weber VB50 (3000 lb) will NOT be good enough to compact the base right...??? i would need a roller or something steve mentioned... like 9000 lb right???

[steveair]

I could be wrong, but this is what I've investigated on comacting equipment.

If you have a smaller plate, it is ok to use for heavier duty jobs, however it becomes a time factor.

In other words, to get the same effect out of a 3000lbf machine compared to a 9000lbf machine, you need to do many more passes and also need to seperate those passes into many more 'lifts' or layers, ie. 3 inch.

This is where I'm looking for a bigger machine. Technically, in order to get the required compaction, I have to run a 3000lbf machine over a walkway like 6 times per 3 inch layer. For walks, I can live with this, but when you get to large patios/drives, the time you need to be 'technically' correct compacting becomes astronomical......in other words, for a drive with a 12" base, you would have to do 4 layers at 3 inches 6-8 times each.....thats a lot of time if you only have a 24" wide plate and even a 1000 sq ft. area.

This is only my understanding of it, so I may be completely wrong, but all in all, a bigger machine will easily speed up the compaction process along with assuring the proper level of compaction.

steve

[diginahole]

ICPI recommends minimum 5000 lb for residential work. Next tamper I buy will be 5000 we currently run 3600.

[paul]

Check for good used rollers at the auctions:) We have a 9 ton unit we bought for $6K

A roller is ok for base but very hard on the pavers unless it has a rubber covered drum, then it's useless for base. The compaction plates will do it all. As soon as I find some one making a 60" - 68" plate for a skid steer they will have my money!

[Stonehenge]

Our next compactor is going to be either a: Wacker 3345 (I think that's the model), or a vibratory roller for the skidsteer. I've never tried the roller, but Paul seems to like them. :) As for the Wacker, I believe the compressive force is 9,000 lbs. Paul's right, it levels the stone, it doesn't just compact the stone. Rattles your molars and your junk, too.

Unfortunately: 1) the only place around that rented them (big Wackers) closed up the local shop in December, and 2) they closed up without my knowing, so I couldn't put an offer in on the ones they had, before they disbursed them among their other offices.

Right now we have 2 in the 3000-4000# category, but they just won't cut it for vehicular traffic.

[Henry]

A friend recently hooked me up with a large walk-behind vibratory roller, an Essik I think. I usually see them hanging on the back of county trucks when they're patching roads. Wheel diameter is about 2 feet and it has a 10 hp motor. Any idea on the kind of force this thing puts out?

[steveair]

A lot of replies here so far.

From the sounds of things, it seems like most everyone is in the same boat for compaction equipment (well, except for paul, of course:) ) Seems like most are running 3000-4000 lb machines.

Was wondering if the bigger machine is really needed for a smaller operation. I really want to do the best job I can, and do the job right. To do this, I don't see any other way except to use a bigger compactor to ensure a better base prep for future jobs. I want to continually improve my installations, and in the past it seems like I I should have had the bigger equipment there.

My question is how many of you would actually spend the money on the equipment to do the job 'right'? I know a few of you already have, or are planning too, but just wanted to ask in general.

I'm still in the growing stage, and would like to buy a lot of other 'neat toys' for doing construction. The larger plates are very expensive and I just don't know if it is worth the investment in one piece of equipment instead of others that are also needed.

Hopefully I can find something on the used market to at least put my 'mind at ease' on the proper base prep. It seems to be a big decision.

Its a situation where the 'big boys' have me beat. It's hard to justify a purchase like this for the amount of work I'm doing, where if I were a larger firm it would be a drop in the bucket to say. I just feel like I'm sacrificing quality by not having it, and when a future customer says they received quotes from larger firms who can afford such equipment and ask what kind of quality I have, I have to bite my tongue and admit that I can't do the same thing they can. I hate that.

steve

[diginahole]

When you need larger equipment you can rent it until you are spending enough on rent to justify purchasing it. Another drawback to larger equipment is its transportation requirements, a 5000 lb unit can be manhandled with 2 guys but a 10,000 lb nees some serious lifting equipment. That is the reason I have used the smaller unit for the past 20 years, one guy can toss it in the back of a pickup. You need to get the tamper up a set of stairs alot of the time so having the small unit will always be necessary i.e no trade in value toward a larger unit.

[paul]

I view it as a time vs cost bases, how long will it take to recover my $ invested in the bigger unit vs my men not installing bricks!

Most 3000 to 5000 lb units cover a 2000 to 3000 sq ft per hr, now if your doing 3' lifts and you need 12" of base your adding in close to a half day to a full days labor just compacting base on a 1000 sq ft. If my roller does 6" lifts and does 59" wide I only have a couple of hrs in compacting base and grading total. I still need smaller units even "GASP" a hand tamper but my margins on public work sites are smaller than most of your homeowner sites.

[SLSNursery]

I agree with diginahole - rental seems to be the best bet when you need something big for a large area. If you do that much large area work, you'll get to a point where rental starts to cost too much and you'll be able to purchase what you need. This way, you are not spending money on a unit that won't be in constant use. If you get a big job or two, go for a rental purchase. We buy bigger stuff that way after trying a couple different models, rather than just diving into a unit.

I have been pricing out an additional smaller units for this spring - in the 3000-4000# range. I am probably going to get one made by Stone. Does anyone have any experience with them, while we are on the subject?

Paul - while searching, I found this item, but it doesn't fit my needs at the current time. It does look interesting and productive though.

www.warrenattachments.com/plate_compactor.htm

[paul]

I though this might be an interesting read http://www.forester.net/gx_0101_compaction.html#self

I think it might shed some light on compaction.

[SCL]

Paul,

Great web site. Thank You. Can even make me sound like I know what I'm doing:D By the way, Lawn site Mentor just about says it all.

[paul]

SLSNursery, I'm ordering a unit in March they can make up a 63-66" unit for less than $7600. Some specs for you with 2000 psi and 13 gallons per minute in hits with 9000 lbs force and can go up to 12,000 lbs with higher flows. Cost wise compared to larger units with their own motors they beat them hands down for easy of use and no worry of someone getting hurt lifting a bigger unit. Plus it removes one man from my grading crew letting them get ready for bricks faster!

[Stonehenge]

SLS -

I've had a Stone for about 5 years, with heavy use for 3-4 of those years. They're a little heavy for the compaction they do, and they're slow as molasses. Our primary unit is a Bomag, and it runs circles around the Stone, with greater compaction, and is lighter. But the Stone will likely be cheaper.

Had a chat with a local competitor who also had a Stone, and they had the same experiences. They bought a new Wacker and sold the Stone.


It's been a solid runner for us, but it's just a bit heavy and it's slow.

[SLSNursery]

Thanks guys. My brother is looking at the Wacker and Bomag. I saw the Stone at a local dealer's place.

Paul - Keep me posted on that plate for the skidsteer. That figure wasn't too bad if it can replace a roller.

[SCAPEASAURUSREX]

I was told by paver manufacturers that the plate compactor should be capable of putting down 3500 to 4000#'s of force and also consider the speed of the machine... Additonally .... Weather or not you have a BIG compactor or not, you still need to do it in reasonable lifts of 3 to 4" .. united Rentals sells their rental equip every year or two , just have to check with them from time to time...

[paul]

It's not so much as how deep it will compact but how fast and large an area it compacts. Anything that cuts down on labor time and moves your installers on to another job means more money in your pocket.

[Stonehenge]

Paul - I just noticed something. Your new 'title'.


Is that a paid position? :D

[paul]

I wish :)

[steveair]

Hello,

I have narrowed my choices to either a bomag, a wacker, or a sakia.

I currently have a sakia, and have to go look at what bigger models they have.

For bomag, I'm looking at the BP23/48 which seems like a nice machine. It's nice because it has a power adjusting switch which changes the force between 5176 and 3825 lbs. I'm still waiting on a price though, gulp!

As for wacker, I was looking at the the new VP2050A. Its a new line up that they call 'economy plates'.............for some reason, I don't really like that name for plates. I looked at one, and it seems to be in the spec range I'm looking for (4500 lbs), but I have to say that it doesn't really look all that well built. It is reasonably priced though, but its easy to see why.

I've got a lot of drives and patios in the works right now, so I'm just waiting for one or two more to come in before I purchase.

Any comments on the bomag/wacker models I've mentioned?

steve

[paul]

Did you ever check out the one for your mini?

[SCAPEASAURUSREX]

I use the WACKER 1550... Seems to do the trick and is very well built....

[steveair]

Paul,

I looked at the mini plate but have to say that now that I have given it some thought I don't think I can justify that big of a purchase. Also, it is limited to base compaction, which means I can't use it for the compaction of the pavers.

It sure is nice though. For now, I am going to continue subbing my base prep out to a bobcat with a roller, as my sub who does my excavation usually will bring the roller with him and include it as part of my base prep for larger jobs.

Think the plate will be the best all-around purchase for now.

steve