Anyone ever REGRET buying a HYDROSEEDER?

[roscioli]

A new subject? I THINK SO! As some of you may remember, I am looking into buying a hydroseeder this spring. I am wondering if anyone has ever regretted investing in a hydroseeder? This can be answered 2 ways,,, I am interested in both, here goes:
1. The particular brand or model didn't hold up or work well for you.
2. Hydroseeding was not a good business for you to be in.
I am actually more interested in #2. I got info from 3-4 different makers, and they all have the testimony saying things like "I paid off my new X brand hydroseeder in 3 days!!!!!" Is there a bad side?

[roscioli]

Sorry for the wrong forum, grass=landscaping, not lawn care? I guess thats where the line is drawn?

[paul]

No it's really installation not lawn care. plus more people here have units. A search on what type of units to buy have been gone thru and other threads on them might have a bearing on your purchase.

Other things we would need to know, do you have equipment for grading and how many others in your area do hydroseeding?

[roscioli]

Hey Paul- thanks, but I have done the homework on units to buy. Many Many searches here, and elsewhere. What I am really looking for, not even advice, but just if anyone has had a bad experience. I know its a good market in my area, only 1 main competitor, and I can get the "loyal locals" cause he is 2 towns over. I am just wondering if anyone has bought one and found it to be less profitable than planned, etc... Thanks, Michael

[paul]

I have seen lots of people regret buying equipment, just look at how many landscapers go out of business every year. There are no bad hydroseeders just bad business men. Lots of people have a great desire to work but doing it profitability thats a nother matter. I use Finn because I want my men seeding as soon as the machine is filled, down time costs me money, having to wait for a machine to mix is not in my equation.

Marketing your services and being able to do them and do it right are what you are looking for along with making money at it. If one of these items are missing then you might regret buying the machine. It's all up to you!

[Administrator]

In spring 99 I bought a 500 gallong turbo turf. I think the machine was around $3,500. I earned $7,000 in volume in the first two days using it.

Shortly after I sold my company but I would have bought a larger paddle system like a Finn.

[roscioli]

Wow Chuck- Thats a huge chunk of change in 2 days. I am goign to start out with a small one, 500 gallon hurricane hydroseeder for $5000. That size in the turbo turf was somewhat more, and i really didnt want to spend more than 5. For now, and doing relatively small installs, i think i can pay for it quickly and buy a bigger one if the housing boom continues in my area. I am pretty excited to enter a new market area. Thanks for the advice guys.
Paul- I see what you are saying, and agree. I feel that I will do just fine, i have a good business sense, and have grown pretty well over the past 2 years. Thanks, Mike

[Administrator]

Your right that was a big chunk of change.

I placed bids to a property manager that were VERY high. So high I didn't imagine I would ever receive the contract. They called me on Monday morning telling me I got the job but it had to be started that Wednesday.

Well, I didn't even have a hydro seeder! I had to drive from Missouri all the way to PA and buy the unit then drive back and shoot the slurry.

I left a few hours after the call, drove non stop, had them weld the unit to my flat bed, drove back non stop.... they called my cell phone Wednesday morning making sure I was on schedule..... I was in St. Louis and assured them everything was fine. I pulled up to the job site right as the property manager was getting there. (By this time I had not slept since Monday morning) I totally played it off to him like I was a hydro seeding pro. I had never touched a hydro seeder up to this point!! I stopped at the local Lesco dealer before hand to pick up the seed, fert, and cellulose. One of the service guy's gave me some quick pointers... that was the extent of my expertise :).

I finished the job on time and it turned out perfectly. The first day I worked all day long, about an hour into the evening, then another hour doing cleanup. By the time I got home I only got a few hours sleep cuz I had to get up early to finish the job. It was taking me a little longer than expected because of slow water source. I completed the job at about 8pm Thursday.

One thing I learned from my month or so hydro seeding is..... Rent or buy a fire hydrant tap! (Makes the process much, much faster.) I was also lucky enough to have a local water buying station. For .50 I could fill up my 500 gallon tank in about 3 minutes. After the first few jobs I was really wishing I had a larger auger type system. The jet type seeders, (turbo turf, hurricane) don't have enough power to mix a wood fiber mix. (IMO) Results of wood are MUCH better than cellulose! The auger type systems also mix your slurry much faster. I would only suggest a jet type system for smaller applications or spot treatment.

[SLSNursery]

How much current demand do you have for that service? We install several hundred thousand square feet of lawn area each year - renovations, new lawns, new house construction, etc; and for the past two years have used a T-90 (900 gallon) Finn for Hydroseeding when called for. We would provide only hydroseeding, or complete installation, from grading to finish. We don't own the machine, but rented it by the day from a friend who bought it new and kept it at our shop. We were already installing lawns, so this was just another approach when the customer requested it or we had enough square feet to justify the costs. There are lots of hidden costs with units like this that the dealers or manufacturers don't really mention. Set up time, cleanup time, water access, clean dry storage, maintenance on the unit, etc. In our case the cleanup seemed like a major hidden cost, especially since you could usually blow out a tank or two quicker than it would take to refill and clean out the machine thoroughly. Don't even think about putting it away dirty.

Even though we used one last year regularly - it would be a tough sell convincing me to purchase one at this point. That model was $34,000 or so, and it worked beautifully. On jobs we would bill between $.06 - $.09 per square foot based on volume, seed blend, tackifier, hydromulch selection, water access, etc.

After having some experience, what would I do differently? I would probably buy one to go on my hook body chassis, I think the 1000 gallon Finn w/mechanical agitation was nice, but in the long run 1500-2000 gallons or more would be better (we have had to have a tanker on some jobs just to keep the machine going). For most new house lots, the square footage is running about 20-40,000 square feet of turf. That is between 2-4 tankfuls - twice as much refilling on the 500 gallon unit.

I guess what I am saying is that we already have the need for a machine, already use one, and I do not regret NOT purchasing that very productive machine. We are very careful in this case to job cost its use each time, especially because it was a rental (i.e. we did not allow ourselves to get in the habit of using the hydroseeder for every seeding project just because it was convenient - if it wasn't generating its own revenue, it didn't get rented). The profitability did not knock our socks off. In fact when we did end up in bid situations, companies would appear out of the woodwork for low dollars compared to our rates. Fortunately we have elected not to compete based upon price. That is the only way we will be able to comfortably afford to purchase one of these units. Before you dive in, find out what builders are paying per square foot. Run the numbers to find out if you can be competitive. You are pretty close to some major markets and may not see or know the competition other than one whom you mentioned, but other big fish aren't that far away.

Sorry for the long post, but my brother and I have given this a lot of thought and I figured sharing it couldn't hurt.

[Alan]

Something to keep in mind is that a small seeder and a big nurse tank come very close to the efficiency of a big seeder and a lot less money is involved. I've only got a 200 gallon seeder but I can do 20,000 ft in a short day by carrying a 1,000 gallon nurse tank on the truck. Load water once on the way to the job and then chase down a second load and you're good for very close to 25,000 ft. Also, as a one man band I find I like the fact that the smaller loads are easier on the operator, if a bit slower. If you're having to drag 200' of hose, mix and spray by yourself it's actually nice to have a change in what you're doing every little while.

[SLSNursery]

I agree with Alan about the nurse tank, especially if you can get the same production from the smaller machine. We have been investigating just that option.

[roscioli]

Excellent, Excellent Posts. Thank you guys very much. I will definately do a little more research. Alan- that is the route I was considering, a 500 Gallon tank, and a nurse tank later. What size truck do you need to carry a 1000 gallon tank? I have a 3/4 ton that I was going to mod and use (i.e., rip of the rusty bed, new suspension, then build up a wooden flat bed like 6.5' X 10'.) I was figuring on this method so that I could simply bolt the 500 gal unit to the wood, which would be simple to remove and replace with the nurse tank, and put the 500 onto a trailer (gravity fed when needed).
SLS- I feel that there is a large enough demand to support myself doing this. I am only 20, still in school, no family yet, so no major problem if it sits, only being used 10-12 times a year. Obviously I am hoping for more than that, but that would be an acceptable minimum. The landscaping market in Sturbridge is fairly saturated, but I have done well with the premium product. I don't compete on price anymore (tried that for a year, and wasn't the professional image that I wanted to convey). I don't see the rapid growth that I always hear about here on lawnsite, which, of course, I take with a grain of salt. I do, however, see very happy customers, and a very low number of lost customers. I feel this slow and steady growth is the only way to grow in a saturated market, and probably the best way to grow in any market to tell you the truth. For the number of new guys that come on here, saying they got 40 full time maintenance customers their first month, then disappear off the map, perhaps fast growth isn't the best anyway.
Where am I going with this? While its a big investment for me, being so small, I feel that in the long term, it will be a good investment. Now I am also scared about the truck size. A 3/4 ton truck probably wont hold 1000 gallons of water very well. What do you guys think about my game plan, and about the truck size?

[paul]

Just so you know water weighs 8 lbs per gallon! I don't think you can get away with a 3/4 ton truck and 1000 gallons.

[roscioli]

A pint a pound, the world around. :) So, at 8000 pounds, 4 tons, what do I need, a heavy duty trailer? What are the actual capacities of full ton trucks? I guess I will have to look that one up online. I know its more than a truck, but is 2 tons? 500 gallons=4000 pounds + seed, etc.... They say you can fit the 500 gallon into a standard pickup with the tailgate open, but can you use it? Ha.

[SCL]

Here's what I can tell you. An F350 has a GVW of between 11,500 and 13,000 lbs. Mine with a heavy dump box is 8K. Go to an F450 or a c3500 HD and they take you to 16K. Between 4500 and 7000 without a box. 3/4 ton I think wouldn't work well with 8K in the back:( For a nurse tank that size put it on a trailer and stick your seeded in the truck. That's kind of what I'm planning but haven't finalized yet.

[aquaturf]

Yes, a nurse tank is a great idea. But since you are using a one ton truck, I would put the hydroseeder on a gooseneck trailer with a poly nurse tank in front of it on the trailer. And I would not feel comfortable going over 1200 combined gallons with that setup. And don't forget the extra space and weight that mulch, seed, fert add to the load.

[micromike]

I've been looking into a similar plan as has been discussed here for hydroseeding.

I'm looking at a 500 gal. seeder on a skidd which will be pulled behind an F250 on a twelve foot dual axel trailer with brakes on both axles. A 500 gal. nurse tank will be in the bed of the truck. This may be taxing the suspension some but I believe overload springs should take care of the problem. Seed and mulch supplies will be carried on the trailer.

Any thoughts?

[Shawn Burns]

I too have purchased a hydroseeder(last fall). it is a skid unit, 425 gallons. Yesterday i ordered a trailer. 18' gooseneck, 6,000 lb axles, brakes on both axles. My machine loaded weighs about 5,200 lbs and i plan on using a 500 gal. nurse tank which will weigh about 4,200 lbs when full. So i'll be at about 9,400 lbs. full not counting trailer weight, seed , or mulch. My point is the weight adds up fast.( i didn't realize that at first) I think the most i can pull (bumper hitch) is about 10,000 lb. with 2500 chevy.
Somthing else to think about; weight restrictions on license plates( you have to pay extra to increase weight that you can haul) and weight restrictions on drivers licenses. In N.C. you have to go to a class B license to pull over 10,000 lb on a trailer.
Just somthing to think about if you haven't already.

Also, i was going to start a thread but will ask my question here;
have any of you had any experiance hydroseeding bermuda? I have a customer wanting it done and i'm a little nervous because i've haven't shot any warm season grass yet. Thanks

Shawn

[The Good Earth]

Shawn,

I think you have to hydrosprig bermuda in order to get results that you and the customer can live with. Let me make some calls to my Florida conection and I'll let you kow for sure.

:D

[Shawn Burns]

Thanks Jay, i do appreciate any help. the dealer i bought my machine from says he's seen golf courses shoot bent grass on greens with good results. I would still like to hear what your connection has to say.

Thanks again,
Shawn

[Sean Gassman]

Hey check out this discussion forum before buying a Hurricane http://pub63.ezboard.com/fhydroseedingfrm2


Hydro seeding is not a way to get rich quick. If it was then everyone would hydroseed. I am the President of the Hydro Turf Planters Association and I can tell you several of our members went out of business. Most of these had only been in the industry one to two years. If the money was so great then what happened. Just as with any industry, those looking in think it is great. For example, the irrigator thinks the landscaper is making a killing, the landscaper thinks the irrigator is making a killing, and they are both operating withing the same profit margins. Hydroseeding is not any different except in most cases you are dealing with a very limited growing season.

As for the questions about bermuda. Which kind are you looking for? Tiff types will have to be sprigged or hydrosprigged. Others can be hydromulched.



Sean Gassman
President of the HTPA

www.htpa.org

[Shawn Burns]

I was thinking of using the Savannah variety. Any experiance with this type?

[Sean Gassman]

I have not used this type of bermuda. It is a Northern variety and would have difficulty in the Texas heat. Here is some information a cut and paste from a search .

hope it helps.

Geographical Adaptation:

Savannah is an excellent all-round bermudagrass that performs well in regions where bermudagrass is well-adapted.

Soil, Climate, and Fertility Requirements:

Savannah performs well in a range of soils, and like all bermudagrasses, performs best in soils with a pH of 5.5 to 8.0. Three to five lbs. N/1000 sq. ft./year is adequate in most areas of the United States. A balanced fertilizer of 3:1:2 ratio of NPK with sulphur is recommended in most geographic locations.

Stand Establishment:

Savannah, like all bermudagrasses, requires about 2 weeks for complete germination. Color may be observed before that time. In good growing weather where soil temperatures are above 65F., expect 3 to 4 weeks for a complete stand of luxurious turfgrass.

:p

[Shawn Burns]

Thanks Sean! I think i remember reading some info. on savannah where they did some testing around here with good results( not hydroseeding) and thought i'd give it a shot. I guess it will come up about like fescue with good weather and water? What i'm really wondering about, is that i have never had really "stellar" results with establishment from any type of bermuda seed. I hope hydroseeding with it will prove different! Thanks again.

Shawn

[Sean Gassman]

Bermuda seed must be kept moist until germination. After about 2-3 weeks from hydroseeding fertilize, fertilize again in week 5-6. This is alot of fertilizer but will help push the bermuda to establish. Bermuda will grow faster the hotter the temp. Here in Texas the last two weeks of July and the first two weeks of August we can have bermuda up and mowing in ten days, as long as you stay on top of the watering. In your area the temps. may be slowing the establishment down.

[Shawn Burns]

Yeah, you're right about temps, now anyway. I will not actually shoot the job until after mothers day, but doing some planting now. I'm looking forward to the experiance, just hope it goes well!
About the water, i have a "above ground irrigation system" that consists of a box with 6 valves and a timer that attaches to customers' spigot and can run 6 sprinklers up to 3 times a day. I rent this setup to customer for $50/week ( if no irrigation is present. Can't count on them to water!) so water should not be a problem.

[Sean Gassman]

Did you design this temp. watering set up? I have considered doing the same, but I am a Lic. irrigator and try to get them to put in a system. Is the controller battery or plugs in?

[Shawn Burns]

Well, kind of a long story. When i was demoing(SP) my seeder the dealer and i were discussing a watering setup that would get the customer to water their new lawn without the cost of a complete system. 2 weeks later he called me to get some more input and then sent me a prototype. After some more "tweaking" he is now selling them as "porta-rain". (he's not stealing it from me) Anyway, the first one uses a 12"x18"( i think) irrigation box, black plastic with green lid. Inside are 6 electric valves wired to a 6 station timer. It has a 25' extension cord wired into an outdoor box inside the big box.With the box closed all you see are a cord, a hose going in and 6 outlets on the other side. The newer ones are in a smaller box using " impulse" valves and a 12 volt battery so there's no cord. Maybe tomorrow i will get time to snap a few pics and can post them. I know i'm not doing a great job discribing it.
It has gone over really well. cusstomers don't mind the $200 for a months worth of watering and my seed comes up great! Also i have several builders wanting to rent them for new homes, until they sell, weather i do the install or not. I think it will be a decent little money maker.
He sells them for about $370 i think

[roscioli]

Guys- Thanks for the posts... Sean Gassman- Thank you so much. Definately changed my mind with that link. I thought it was a little odd that they didn't answer the phone on a tuesday afternoon... Wow. Scary that I almost bought one from them. To the rest of you- Thanks! I will probably still be buying one, barring a few issues with truck size, and the possibility of taking a semester in Australia. Thanks a lot for all the lawnsite quality help, Michael Roscioli

[Alan]

I haven't been following this thread for a while so my replies are somewhat outdated.

I used to haul the nurse tank in an F350 dump body. With a full load I was way overloaded. Grew up driving overloaded farm trucks so it didn't bother me other than making sure to keep stopping room. Carrying a half tank was even worse, the water sloshing would toss the truck all over the place. I've now moved up to a 5500 GMC, GVW of 19,500 and taht 4 tons of water might as well not be there for all the fuss the truck makes of it. We've also go a 425 gallon pickup tank, which I can fit into the GMC behind the 1,000 gal one. Carrying 1400 gallons will put me slightly over GVW and right at my registered weight. I'm going to try it when I do something big, the extra tankage would make the difference between two trips or three.

[Always Green]

Go to i-hydroseeding.com Great sorce for hydroseed info
I have a 9 year old Turbo Turf 500gal machine doing 10,000 sq. ft jobs I've never needed a extra tank, but we hyjack water from the town ............silly water company they put a fire hydrant on every block and no locks. We use a 12' twin axle trailer(no insurance costs and trailer plates are $21 a year.We do over a million sq. ft a year w/this set up.
:blob2:

[paul]

Thats a lot of Sq footage for a jet machine, but if your covering 10,000 sq ft with one tank then your not using much hydromulch!

[Lanelle]

In our area, hijacking water, instead of using a legal hydrant meter will result in a hefty fine. And don't try to use your meter in another jurisdiction. You could lose the meter and also pay a big fine.

[Sean Gassman]

If you are getting 10,000 sq. ft. with a 500 gal machine and steal water, sounds like you are just asking for trouble. Stealing water here will put you in jail and your equipment impounded, not to mention any professional imbarisment , you may have as a result of getting pulled of the job for stealing. How much mulch are you putting in your machine? Most jet machines put about 30lbs per 100 gallons of water. If this is the case then you are putting down 15 lbs per 1,000 sq. ft. or 653.4 lbs per acer, this is just colored water.

[Shawn Burns]

I'd have to say, dealing with water dept.'s is about the most aggrevating part of hydroseeding. One city is great, rent a meter by the month, call at the end of the month and give them the reading and they send me a bill. The others are a little more trouble. Still a 9,000 sf. job costs me about $8.00 in water. Not hardly worth going to court over for stealing. Not to mention it's not a very professional way to do business!

[paul]

Water can be a problem here too, luckly for us most times we are working for the Village or Park district and they let us use their meter, they really just need to know how much you use.

[Shawn Burns]

Well, the bigger towns here are pretty good. With the smaller towns hydroseeding is pretty new so they are not used to someone needing only 1,000 or1,500 gal. at one site. One town i have started working in i have to call the public utilities dept., have one of their guys meet me at the hydrant i will be using, let them hook up the meter,call them back out there when i'm done so they can read meter and give me a bill. Then i have to go to town hall to pay for the $8.00 in water that i used. I am talking to the supervisor now to try to figure out a better way to work this thing so we can both save time. What a pain!!

[The Good Earth]

Man, we have it made. City of Columbus has us go to the water department and file a permit. $45.00 for all the water you need all day. Nobody bugs us or anything.

You also have to put a $350.00 deposit on a backflow device and a wrench. Tell the folks at the water department that you will have it back in a day or two and they just paper clip it to your file. Turn in the device and they give us back the check to void out.

I went so far as to put these folks on the christmas card list!! They take real good care of us.

[A1 Lawn@Landscapes]

Michael, You might want to check our the big guy 2 towns over. Hydrograss reants a hydro seeder on a trailer ready to go w/, seed fert mulch and h2o. I am going to try it this year before I buy one. I dont remember the $ but it was reasonable. I drive by there often and I think he has 3 or 4 available.
Kerry

[roscioli]

A1- Thanks for the info, I didn't realize they rented too. I will give them a call tomorrow to see how much. At the moment I am putting it off because of a lack proper truck. I don't know if I want to upgrade to a bigger truck, or keep my cheapo junko F-150. Renting would be a real good option as long as its a reasonable price... So, Thanks again, Michael

[Always Green]

I said I do 10,000 sq. ft jobs I didn't say I did them in one tankfull, but with water so easy to get I just run around the corner for more, it only takes a few minuites to fill up again.
And to be true I have had small clogs but they didn't stop the job, I just shut off the other valve and the extra pressure clears out the line that's clogged, no real time loss.
We get 10,000 sq. ft. out of one 500 gallon tank but thats using100 lbs of mulch and tacking Straw(Straw is required on new construction to stablize the sandy soil we have here.)
Also The water co. is township owned and they don't really care(or didn't till this week, NJ just declaired water emergency) If they say anything its a warning and they don't report you to the office so the same guy has to see you twice in a short time period, and they never say anything in a new subdivision. I use and old backflow preventer and a hydrantwrench most guys here use a monkey wrench and strip the nut so they like me I at least try to do no harm.

[Alan]

Around here a lot of towns don't have municipal water systems. The flip side of that is that there are brooks and ponds all over the place so I'm usually closer to open water than I am a hydrant. The way I've got things valved up I can use the seeder pump to draft off an open source and fill the seeder and the nurse tank. Then I switch one hose and I can draw off the nurse tank to refill the seeder. When I have to go after a second load I can drop my spray hose and take seeder and all or use a second pump (2" Homelite cheapie) to fill the nurse tank. I do so little work within any one township that it has not been worth it for me to get set up to load off hydrants, I'd need at least 5 different permits or whatever was required