charging for designs

[cody]

Do most of you guys charge for designs?On occasion I've had people really fight me on this one. I know alot of guys dont but I feel my designs are very professional and they do take alot of my time. I do know that charging really turns off some potentials and I know its not a money issue.I've lost potential $45,000 landscape jobs because they didnt like that I charged for designs.
I didnt back down on the charging part and they never called back and it was a referal! Anyone else encounter this? I only charged $75.00 for a design and told them it would be recouped into the job if they accepted.Would love to hear about your experiences.


thanks!

[kris]

Our designs are anywhere from around $600.00 and up.

$75.00 won't even get you a consultation . They are $100 for 2 hours...$50 per hour after the 2 hour min.

[mowing king]

A real designer who has a good rep will charge for a design. A landscape installer desperate for work usually will not.
If people fight you on the design fee you have not built enough value into the design. Our design fee starts at $400 and up. a basic foundation planting usually doesn't need a design so you should sell that on the spot. But a $45g job needs a design plan. Many people don't understand the value of a plan and its your job to show them the value. If they don't get it, move on.

[Randy Scott]

If they don't want to pay for a design then they are telling you that you're expertise in that area is less than nothing and worthless. YOU need to educate the customer and tell them that they are paying for your professionalism and vast knowledge in this industry. All the knowledge that is required to design a plan for them is alot to know how to do. They have no understanding of what it really takes to come up with a design. All the things you are taught in design classes that are now second nature in laying out a design, is an incredible amount of information and foresight put into that plan that they could never even dream of. If a customer hasn't been made aware of the many different aspects to a plan, and some of the things one must go through to derive at a quality landscape plan, they will not have an understanding of the value of that plan and your time. If a contractor chooses not to charge for their time, which undoubtedly will be extensive, then they are not worth having as a designer. That just shows what little effort and knowledge will be brought to the table for the customer. I do believe crediting part of the plan, should they choose to go with you, is pretty much standard practice.
If you choose not to charge a customer, and/or they choose someone that doesn't charge for it, then that customer is most likely getting what they paid for. And you are providing them with what they paid for.
Everybody's time and knowledge is worth something. What makes the design time versus the actual installation time worth any less.
Honestly, $75 doesn't even come close to covering the time of meeting with the clients and discussing their ideas, or getting a plat of survey, or a house plan, or doing a site analysis.
It's one thing to lay a couple landscape beds out for an existing house, but to do a new construction design is a whole different world.

[PAPS]

Originally posted by cody
Do most of you guys charge for designs?On occasion I've had people really fight me on this one. I know alot of guys dont but I feel my designs are very professional and they do take alot of my time. I do know that charging really turns off some potentials and I know its not a money issue.I've lost potential $45,000 landscape jobs because they didnt like that I charged for designs.
I didnt back down on the charging part and they never called back and it was a referal! Anyone else encounter this? I only charged $75.00 for a design and told them it would be recouped into the job if they accepted.Would love to hear about your experiences.


thanks!


My man, you lost out on a potential $45,000 job on a stupid $75.00 design fee??? are u nuttts!!! First off, like the other guys said... if your designs are that professional, then your numbers are way off. But, if your only going to charge $75.00 for a design.. then its not worth it. Dont bother charging at all... i know its the principal and everything... but $45,000 or $75.00....

[Five Star Lawn Care LLC]

I think PAPS hit the nail on the head. You people have something wrong in the head. If im the customer and im going to spend thousands of dollars with you then u better throw me in free design or im going to contract someone else.

[steveair]

Hello,

I don't think there's anything wrong with the people who are charging design fees.

The people who have something wrong in their heads are the ones who don't.

If you think I'm going to go to a 'potential' job and spend my time measuring, drawing, coming up with a plant list, etc. for free, then you are nuts.

The key point here is that the job is a 'potential'. It is not sold yet. What if you spend the time and give them a free plan and the people don't go with you......suddenly, you just lost a day's worth of time and pay.

The problem here is that too many contractors are willing to give their time away for free. If every contractor came in and said there is a design fee, then it would be a much better world.

I don't care how big the job is. Unless its 100% sold to begin with, I am going to ask for a check up front to get started on the plan.

Also, another question is what is the scope of the job. Saying its a 45k job really does nothing when it comes to the design........the job could be a 40,000 dollar paver drive and 5k worth of planting.....for something like this, I may not even have a design as there is really nothing to design.

steve

[dan deutekom]

I think Steveair has hit the nail on the head. If it involves any more than sketching on a pad of paper during your sales call then there should be a design fee. Many of the guys that do a free design don't get the job and then drive by the place a couple of months later and see the job done with their design. You can't be afraid to charge for your time and skills. All this being said I think it depends on the type of client you are trying to get. A lot of 45K jobs are done for cheap and not really caring clients that are trying to get the most for the least and do not appreaciate the time and care that go into a carefully planned landscape.

[JML]

In my area, Central N.J. people will laugh in your face and ask you to leave if attempt to charge them for a design. Everyone in my area does free designs, so we are forced to do the same just to keep competitive..

[Stonehenge]

We don't charge to create the design, but we do charge them if they want to keep the design. We give the estimate/proposal to them either way, free of charge.

Any money paid toward the design is then credited toward the price of the project, should they contract with us.

And we make exceptions to those rules, like if it's a quickie design that took 15 minutes, or if it's a customer that has given us business in the past.

But I agree with others, that if the project price is getting up there, like $45K, you have to charge for the design in advance. Too much time goes into a plan like that to create it without having some sort of minimum remuneration for it. But it's got to be $300 or more.

[kris]

Originally posted by Big Bad Ram2500
. You people have something wrong in the head

Instead of insulting people .... maybe take some advise and consider that everyone has differant approaches. We have no shortage of work and our design department is quite busy.

There are exceptions for us also and some examples were made in other posts here.

[PAPS]

All i was saying is that if I basically sold a 45K job, and the customer was crying over a $75.00 design fee... i would simply NOT charge him for the disgn so I can get the job...

Otherwise... you have to charge for larger designs... i am not wasting my time estimating, measuring and drawing on a "potential" job, only to be not hired.

[Lanelle]

Charging for a design is legitimate and rebating the fee when the job is sold and installed is a good way to go. Unless you have had people rip-off your designs a few times and realize that your time is worth money, maybe it doesn't matter to you. Reputation has a lot to do with how much you can charge. I do things basically the way Jeff outlined.

[Henry]

Those of you who charge a fee, when do you tell them? Do you let them know over the phone or after you meet them and see the job?

Reason I ask is because I will wait till I see the job. Many times people will try to describe the job on the phone and it turns out to be different. So if it doesn't require a design I don't want to scare off a potential client.

Last Spring I met with a guy who wanted his whole property re-designed but didn't want to pay a design fee and said he would call me back if the other guy who was coming also charged. I guess the other company didn't charge because they got the job.
I figure they don't need to charge because every job of thiers looks exactly the same. PAPS, you might know who I'm talking about.

[landman]

We will first go to a customer when we get a call and discuss a few details about the site/job. Then we determine if the job warrants a design or master plan. If it's a simple job where there is no major renovation It's a rough sketch. When it is a large job we will tell the customer that we do charge a fee of $300.00 and if we do the job we will credit the customer the $300.00 fee. When the Customer asks why we do that we tell them that the program to do the design will show them before, after, in bloom, out of bloom, install sizes, and sizes 3 to 5 years from now. Then I continue to tell them that the program cost about $3000.00 and takes about 3 to 4 hours. we are willing to waive the fee if we get the job. When I first got the program we did designs for free and what pissed me off was I did a great job on the print, great presentaion, but lost the job to another guy because the customer had shown the layout I designed to him and he did the job for a few bucks cheaper. I don't work for free so, when I tell the customer this story they understand. If not and they don't want that we'll give them a sketch on paper and tell them that's how the job will be done.

[cody]

Thanks for all the replies! I've concluded that it depends on your specific area.I find some potentials are looking for the lowest number, and thats not me,I've lost residential jobs by thousands to some hack that installs a $3500.00 landscape against a $500,000 home.They use plants and designs that I and any self respecting Owner would be ashamed of. I never lowball anyone.
I will not. My attitude is I'm willing to provide an apprpriate estimate
matching the home in question. I will not cheap my self or the customer to win a job.We have plenty of business.As for not charging for designs I find Im inbetween a rock and a hardplace.
I sell landscapes based on quality not price. And I know very few who charge for their designs and they have the same issues

[cody]

Yeah and PAPS i'll tell you why I'll walk away rather than back down.You make think Im nuts but I can make much more in the time I would have spent on that job doing a combination of other smaller jobs for people who appreciate what we have to offer and our talents.

You make think I'm nuts but yes I am a man of principle!

[Messenger Gardens]

When we first started out, we did not charge for design work. Then after spending considerable time and effort putting a design together for a surgeon (project cost of about $17k) he said he would review the plan and get back with us. Two weeks later he personally supervised the job using day laborers from a temp agency and buying materials at Lowe's and a shopping center lot nursery.

On small projects that do not require more than a few minutes of rough drawings, we do not charge. However, on any project that requires scales drawings and considerable research time, the client signs a design agreement before any design work begins. The agreement basically provides the client will pay for the design. If the client chooses to use us for the installation, the design fee is waived. We have very, very little objection to this practice as we show clients design proposals done for other projects.

By the way, we eventually did the job for the surgeon -- only thing is it cost him an extra $2,500 to rip out the dead and decaying miss he installed.

[AztlanLC]

Big Bad Ram2500

It's not the same goin to a potential customer's house and give'em a quote for mowing their lawn.

Making a design takes a lot more time.

Would you accept if a customer tell you if you can mow their lawn 1 time for free and then give'em the price? without any warranty that they are going to hire you.

[longslawn]

I had a customer tell me one time to service there yard free and if they liked our work they would talk to us about a contract. I politely declined and offered them references instead. Never heard back and was glad I didn't.
As far as charging for designs, we don't usually charge for design work as 98% of our work is referal and we normaly get the job. I am currently rethinking this as I had (2) designs that the owner did not decide to do the work and the time and cost is wasted. I think we will start charging and offering a rebate if we do the work. We will charge a modest fee and if there not intersted in spending $150.00 on a 6000 - 10000 dollar job then maybe its a waste of time anyway.

[RoyeDillon]

I'll say amen to that. The problem for me is getting a job or two to really showcase my talents to be able to show what I can do. I've done a lot of free estimates & am getting sick of it too. Thanks for good info.

[DFW Area Landscaper]

Mainly, I'm in the maintenance business, but I always have customers who want to know what would do well here...what would do well there. They're not taking notes and then 6 months later we have the same conversation the next time they catch me on their lawn. They can easily chew up 30 minutes of my day before I can politely bow out of the conversation, which always ends with "call me if you want to do something on that". They never call. When I'm by myself, it's just my time. But this summer I plan to get an employee, so it'll be more expensive to have these pointless conversations.

Additionally, one of my good friends in another town, knowing that I'm in the business, was talking about calling several landscape contractors out to his house to get "bids" on a new landscape. His plan was to get the drawings which specified which plants would go where and then do it himself. My friend is a fairly honest guy, but if he's thinking that way, rest assured others are too. I guess they rationalize it to themselves as "It's just a drawing", failing to realize that eats up several hours to design and propose a single landscape install.

This year, I re-wrote my service agreement and in addition to all my regular services, like mowing, fert/weed control, bed maintenance, leaf clean up, etc., I have a "product" called landscape design and proposal. As soon as they start asking those questions, I'm going out to my truck and getting my pre-printed service agreement. I'll write down $199.00 (or more) in the box to the left and explain that for $199.00 I'll create a design.

Here's the text of my contract:


Landscape Design and Proposal
Landscape design & proposal consists of taking measurements of existing landscape and using good judgement to draw plans and present pricing for landscape installation. Design price does not include making changes or alterations to plans. Minimum drawing requirements are black & white on 8.5” X 11” paper. Drawings will be shown to customer, but will not be left with customer. If customer elects to hire Meier’s Landscape Maintenance to install the landscape as designed, the design fee will be deducted from the price of the install. A separate written document will govern the terms and conditions of the landscape installation.

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper

[NCSULandscaper]

I charge accordingly for my designs at the beginning, however if the customer gets me to do the install i will deduct the cost of the designs off the final price. The main reason i started doing that was to keep people from stealing my designs and getting someone else cheaper to do it.

[kris]

This is a fairly old thread .... I remember it now.

We will sometimes make exceptions and waive the design fee.

Bottom Line is... the design department is profitable on it's own or they're overhead labor ... either way you have to recover the costs involved.

[hole in one lco]

200.00 per drawing .........
Free estimates are fine but work is work.

[D Felix]

Ok, so as I read all this, you are charging for the design upfront, before you actually deliver the design, right?

It seems some of you have a set price, but for those of you that more of a flexible price, how do you determine how much to charge? Do you estimate square footage of beds, and apply a dollar amount to that for a design fee? Do you say each side of the house is $XX? How do you determine that?

We're starting to charge for designs, but haven't really gotten into it for every design yet.


Dan

[Peach]

I charge $50/hr for design. 1st visit free. I sell myself well enough that the design fee is NEVER a problem. Potential customer is told the design fee comes off of first labor paid but that if they don't like my ideas they don't have to purchase the design and do not keep the paper. That has yet to happen.

I use 11X17 CAD drawing and close 95% of jobs I bid. Sometimes I decline to bid .... usually when I get a feeling. We are busy enough that out of necessity I chose customers as often as they choose us.

We are almost exclusively referal.

[newleaflandscape]

We charge 70 dollars an hour average design runs somewhere around three hundred bucks. But I tell the customer that if they end up doing business with me that the design fee will be credited to their bill. If you do designs for free you will end up drawing up designs for jobs you wont even get. Thats stupid.

[Doster's L & L]

Y'all have a good point about charging for designs. I waisted many hours doing a design for the city of Dresden court square so i could put in a bid. When i went to the office to make sure i got the bid, the lady told me, "Well, we got someone to do it for 4x less than you were charging to do it." I asked her who got it. "Oh, well, we got the local Master Gardeners to do it." No damn wonder they were 4x less than i was. They are community workers that don't charge for their labor. They just do free community service. Ask me if i was pissed the very instant she told me that. I was insulted needless to say.

[D Felix]

Think I'da still sent them a bill for the design!

Probably looks like crap now?


Dan

[Doster's L & L]

Well, it looks the same as it did. They'll start working on it in the spring probably. I agree though. It will look like shiznit when they finish i'm sure.

[GreenMonster]

Hope no one minds if I change the direction of this thread...

As I started doing some designs in 2003, my first "real" year in landscaping, I had been doing them as a plan view in AutoCAD. My background is as a Field Service Engineer, prior to that Technical Writer, so I have extensive knowledge with this software, allowing me to be very efficient.

However, AutoCAD is geared more towards engineering and falls a little short as far as color capabilities are concerned.

Is anyone else doing design in AutoCAD? Do you think it is sufficient for b&w designs under $10k? Are there specific landscape design programs that are popular? Thanks.

[longslawn]

I use Dynascape by Garden Graphics. Cad program for landscape drawings. Does an excellent job.

[impactlandscaping]

I charge a consultation fee just to show up for a landscape install request. I usually include 1 hour of my time to the potential client to "feel out" the needs and ideas for the install. During this time, I may take some digital pics and load them to the laptop.Then I'll throw out a few quick renderings at them. If they are intersted, fine, I'll do the design for them for $ 350.00-600.00.(upon contract signing, 50 % of the design fee is credited to the contract).-- If they aren't interested, I'm covered for my time, usually enjoyed a cup of coffee or two, and saved myself from several hours designing a plan for a tire kicker. If they want pics of the renderings only, I charge $ 19.95 per 8x11 glossy print. A few times I have made a nice profit in less than 2 hrs from selling 4-6 prints to homeowners who want a visual aid to DIY (with a consult fee).As stated in earlier posts, if you can't get someone to pay you for a modest amount of your time, why would you think they would drop 5K+?JMO.........

[LandMatters]

my background: 27 years old. 2000 graduate of WVU landscape architecture. 2.5 yrs working for a land planner/engineer firm. 1 year working for a landscape contractor. Have been a licensed landscape Architect for over a year in Maryland and Virginia. Just started my own company Oct. 2003.

This is a two part response:

Part 1: Design Fees
I recently started my own landscape architecture/construction company (Oct. 2003). I have found out quickly the problems everyone has described above. I had 2 instances last fall where I did a nice detailed design, left the plan and have not heard back since. For example, I came up with some great ideas that none of the other companies even thought about (I think he actually had about 6 companies come out there). There was so much thought put into the plan that the homeowner was blown away. He then told me that my price was the lowest of the non-JoShmo companies and he would go with me. I figured it was a done deal, so left the plan. Haven't heard back since. Live and Learn...., so I met with a potential client this past weekend for a follow-up with plan and proposal. The homeowners were definitely on board with everything I showed them. I created a nice looking plan (in Garden Graphics, which I'm testing out), on 11x17 paper. At the end of the presentation, I asked how they wanted to preceed from here, which they said that they were still awaiting prices. I then let them know that I could not leave the plan there, which they were a little upset about and said that they thought that I gave free estimates. I told him I do, and he got a free estimate(proposal), but the design would cost $400 (which would be credited to the construction cost). I had to explain to them that if I didn't do the plan and put the thought into the design, they would have gotten the regular, boring rectangular steps leading out of the house to the patio instead of the enlarged landing areas (which they loved, and will probably share idea with the next contractor, but atleast I did not make it easy for them to simply give the plan to the next guy). With that said, I walked out with my plan and will be waiting to hear back from them.

Part 2: Design software

I have been trying out Garden Graphics (have about 1 1/2 weeks left on the demo) for the past month. I think the software produces great looking CAD drawings that look hand drawn. This product would work great on most residential and smaller commercial jobs (this would apply to most landscape contractors). However, I am not sure that this program is right for me. I have an AutoCad background as well. I think that I have determined that this program will not give me all the functionality that I would need for large scale commercial / site planning. I will be taking a look at Vectorworks LandMark. This program should give me similar B/W graphics, but also give me the ability to do rendering, Image editing, detailed 3d walk-throughs, grading, drainage, irrigation, etc. (I may also look at Eagle Point's LandCadd).

I should mention that I tried ProLandscape, Digital Imaging, etc... but again, they are not functional enough for large scale land planning. These are great for doing residential designs though.

[MikesLawnServiceLLC]

.....Well.....I know that when I finally get done with my Landscape Architecture degree that I will definately charge for design! Heck, 75 bucks isn't enough to pay for my ASLA exams! -Mike

[Keith Howells]

We absolutely always charge for designs, We will include the fee in the final estimate if the customer wants us to do the install. We never deduct the fee. The design equates to hours the same as installing a wall or mowing a lawn, and I don't know of many of you guys who would give away your labor for free. The design is an element of the job, same as the install, and you get what you pay for. We never review or leave the design without the fee being paid up front.

As far as the CAD programs are concerned, we have mixed emotions. Several of our customers have mentioned that they can tell, and appreciate that our designs are done by hand. They believe that the hand drawing equates to craftsmanship, which it does to a certain extent. If CAD is used in the wrong way, it can be like operating a calculator without understanding the math behind it. You can produce a design, but it's crap because the principles of good landscape design are not understood or followed.

We just went head to head on a 125K job where the guy we were up against used CAD. The design "looked" good, but that was it. The guy could not explain to the owner why he put the plants in that he did. We produced a hand drawing, could explain the design, and won. This was CAD used in the wrong way. The owner also commented on the look of the hand drawing. Guess we're lucky the people we do business with appreciate the time and effort spent in the design phase.

[AGLA]

"like operating a calculator without understanding the math"

That makes absolutely no sense to me. There is no process oriented CAD program that I am aware of. Whether you draw with a pencil, pen, crayons, or CAD, you are not gaining or losing anything in the "design".

A hand drawn plan does not add or take away anything from the built landscape vs. a CAD drawing. Crap is crap whether your competitor did it on CAD or with the most remarkable hand drafting skills. If you don't understand design, CAD is as useless as a drafting table and vice versa.

Similarly, if you do not understand principles of drafting, a CAD plan will not look very good either. A person knowledgable in drafting techniques is going to use line hierarchy, stipuling, hatching, and shadowing just the same as a person with a mechanical pencil.

One thing that we all have to understand is that the plan is just one piece of the presentation. How well you demonstrate that you understand what the client is looking for and how well you are prepared to address those needs is far bigger. A portfolio of built work goes a long way.

My guess is that Keith would have landed that job even if his competitor drafted his plan. I'm sure that his verbal communication showed he was addressing their needs and he probably showed some work that he did that backed up his ability to follow through. I also would guess that his competitor would not have gotten the job even if Keith drafted the plan.

CAD won't make you, or break you. You have to know what you are doing in design and you have to understand drafting techniques. My drawing hands are poor, but I was trained in landscape graphics. Without that my CAD plans would look like a wiring diagram, but they don't.

[Paradise Landscapes]

I charge for designs, 150.00+ How many of you use 35mm film when working off of pictures when Drawing a design?
That costs after a long time! I charge when we start taking pictures to cover the development fees. about 35.00 for the picture taking and initial meeting. That hepls me definately weet-out the tire-kicking shoppers.

Your thaughts? They are always welcome!

[landscapingpoolguy]

First consultation is free.....Usually discuss plans and objectives with customer......Computerized design done on pro landscape billed out at $75.00 per hour....non refundable plan.....If it means the difference between making or breaking a deal tho, ill break my own rules.

Chuck

[Coffeecraver]

Maintenance projects like mulching and yard detailing are offered in the Free Estimate.

Landscaping estimates are different. Usually, homeowners have no plans, drawings, or plant lists when we arrive. In that case, consulting or planning is needed, not an estimate.

Consulting and planning are not free. Those are services we offer. Consulting - if local - is about $25 minimum, and that provides up to an hour and a half. Each additional hour will be at least $20 per hour. We have never had anyone go beyond 2 hours. If homeowners have plans and details available to present to us, a Free Estimate is an option.



Most design plans are done for a fee. We prefer a flat fee, so estimates are provided for our design plan workmanship. Prices start in the realm of $25 for a sketch, and up to $200 or more for an entire residential lot. This includes travel to the site, acquiring some measurements, photographs, drawing the plans, copies, notes and plant lists. Cost will vary according to complexity, lot size and the city we need to travel to.The design is yours even if we do not install it.

The design prices are based on the condition that dimensions and plot plans are provided to us. Otherwise, time is required for measuring, which we are glad to accomodate.

Landscape designs are like going to the Dr.

The client comes to you , you give them a perscription,
they get it filled.

They do not have to get it filled but you still pay the Dr.

They may not go to your drug store , they may take your perscription to another .

When a sketch on a regular notepad at a site is drawn,and you give it to them without details and numbers,thats fine.

When you visit the site and take measurements,visit the nursery,
draw the design to scale,etc... You need to be paid !