PDA

View Full Version : 220 Square foot stone patio w/stairs-first job


4 seasons lawn&land
11-07-2008, 09:03 PM
thought id post this here now that we have this section. what do you think? Its goshen stone. Theyre mostly 6-10 sq ft rocks and two 25 sq. ft rocks.

4 seasons lawn&land
11-07-2008, 09:06 PM
.........................

4 seasons lawn&land
11-08-2008, 02:27 PM
wow, apparently 59 people so far dont like it...

DUSTYCEDAR
11-08-2008, 02:49 PM
i like it alot

Midstate Lawncare
11-08-2008, 03:15 PM
it is not that 59 people don't like it, it is that 59 people have nothing to be critical of. Fantastic job man!

zedosix
11-08-2008, 10:30 PM
Do they have sheep living there, I see alot of straw! But on a serious note, why do you guys put straw, why not just lay some sod and be done.

4 seasons lawn&land
11-08-2008, 11:39 PM
you make it sound like sod is easier... Its harder and more expensive. Drop some seed and throw some straw on top, thats it.


edit- you realize straw is to protect the seed underneath from cold/frost and runoff right?

NewHorizon's Land
11-09-2008, 02:00 AM
Straw also breeds weeds

zedosix
11-09-2008, 08:38 AM
you make it sound like sod is easier... Its harder and more expensive. Drop some seed and throw some straw on top, thats it.


edit- you realize straw is to protect the seed underneath from cold/frost and runoff right?

How is laying sod harder? You go to all the trouble of doing those huge rock slabs that gotta weigh a few hundred pounds each or more and you don't finish the job with sod! Just makes the job look messy.

tthomass
11-09-2008, 11:31 AM
Sod is a very minimal expense for the area you would have to cover. Next time just lay sod for a quick clean look.

I only pay $100 for a 600SF pallet here.......60 rolls. About 10 rolls would have teken care of you there.

DVS Hardscaper
11-09-2008, 12:06 PM
some angles of the photograghy make the work look very elementary.

The first photo of your SECOND thread looks nice.

I like that stone, but it's my opinion that I think it's better suited in a more rustic setting.

We use sod from time to time, but it's easier said than done, as we don't have a sod farm around every corner of our jobs. So yeah, it may be $100 to purchase, but our time to go pick it up or to have it delivered makes it not worth while.

btammo
11-09-2008, 12:10 PM
Sod for a small area like that? The seed will take and soon you wont even know it was ever done. The extra money for sod, fert, prep and finish time you will price yourself out of a small job.

zedosix
11-09-2008, 02:46 PM
Sod for a small area like that? The seed will take and soon you wont even know it was ever done. The extra money for sod, fert, prep and finish time you will price yourself out of a small job.

If laying 10 or 20 rolls of sod will "price yourself out of a small job" then your doing something wrong.

4 seasons lawn&land
11-09-2008, 03:53 PM
sod makes absolutely no sence at all for a little area like that. I finished the job early last month and it's thick full grass at this point without a weed in it. straw breeds weeds...? uhm, okay

zedosix
11-09-2008, 05:11 PM
I don't want to seem ignorant, but what do you do with the straw afterwards?

4 seasons lawn&land
11-09-2008, 05:52 PM
pick it up

Team-Green L&L
11-09-2008, 05:56 PM
Can't say that I like it, but I like the effort. The transition is a little noisy and in contrast for me.

zedosix
11-09-2008, 06:47 PM
pick it up

Oh.......With the sod, you leave it there, no picking it up afterwards.:laugh:

punt66
11-09-2008, 06:58 PM
Sod is rarely used here as well. I have landscaped many new homes and renovated many others. I havent het to lay a single row of sod. I either seed or hydroseed. Maybe its an area specific thing. But we rarely use sod in these parts.

DVS Hardscaper
11-09-2008, 08:20 PM
It's rare that we use sod. Straw is never an issue neither.

In terms of when to use it and when not to use it - Sod is a seasonal item. Usually early Spring and most of fall - there is enough moisture where seed will germinate in 7-10 days. When servicing a low budget project for a middle class home - every penny counts. There is no sense in doing sod when you cn have grass jumping out of the ground well within 18 days. And these words come from a sod farmer, they're not my words. But it's true.

4 seasons lawn&land
11-09-2008, 08:28 PM
Oh.......With the sod, you leave it there, no picking it up afterwards.:laugh:



Yep, not sure that makes up for rolling out and cutting 30 pound rolls of sod over sprinkling out a 2 pound bag of seed though.

Sod is for rich people that want instant perfection and are willing to pay for it, that simple.

Mike33
11-09-2008, 08:53 PM
I have been doing this for 14 years and laid my first piece of sod this past summer 3/4 of a pallet/ Bui;t small wall in small yard messed all of the yard up and h/o go ahead and lay sod he would pay for it. It took 3 hours to go to and from sod farm and 30 minutes to put down. kind of neat but we dont get calls for it to expensive on complete yard besides we hydro-seed them.
mike

P.L.
11-09-2008, 09:00 PM
Where i live there are probly 10 sod farms within 10 mile of most of my jobs and i still almost never use it. A lawn from seed will establish better and be easier to maitain.. No straw though, hydroseed or penn muclh, you don't have to go back again

CountryLC
11-09-2008, 10:21 PM
I would use seed in that scenario, we rarely use sod its not common around here, and straw is fine not many weed seeds mainely mulch is also good but a bit pricey.

zedosix
11-09-2008, 10:27 PM
Our customers almost always demand sod to finish off patios or walkways. I like it because its clean and has the finsihed look.

proscape lawncare
11-10-2008, 08:52 AM
Good job!
In the long run I find that sod is problematic (in our area no one uses it) and it will stand out from the seeded lawn.
If you are putting down sod for your portfolio, I feel it is not in the client’s best interest (in most cases)
Yes if you use straw from an unknown source it will most likely have weed seed in it, use marsh grass if you can, we use mulch mat to avoid this issue.
As for photos we take them when we finish the project and return to the site the following year and take updated photos, we do this for a few reasons.
Most jobs there are new plantings and after a year of growth it makes for better photos.
This return trip lets you be proactive should any changes happen from the freeze thaw cycle take place in our area (haven't had any yet but it's a piece of mind, did tell one client to move there sump pump hose that was running onto the flagstone fire pit) shows your commitment to your work give's you the opportunity to provide more services to your client, if pavers were installed we remind them that they need to be sealed, and most times we end up providing this service.
Just My 2 Cents
Good job!

btammo
11-10-2008, 08:58 AM
If laying 10 or 20 rolls of sod will "price yourself out of a small job" then your doing something wrong.

Yeah ok. Joe blow is going to price it with seed and straw you price it with sod. Your price is 300 more. People want grass, not a golf course. I think most people can wait for seed to germinate rather than spend the extra for sod. If they want sod, then it is most likely brought up in the design review. It just seems silly to me to sod such a small area like this unless demanded by the customer.

White Gardens
11-10-2008, 10:42 AM
I like the job, instead of straw, I use a very, very thin layer of hardwood mulch over the surface and seed it. Sod would have worked well though.

Where the straw areas are at, I would have designed some plantings in there to help "frame" the path and patio.

4 seasons lawn&land
11-10-2008, 12:16 PM
I like the job, instead of straw, I use a very, very thin layer of hardwood mulch over the surface and seed it. Sod would have worked well though.

Where the straw areas are at, I would have designed some plantings in there to help "frame" the path and patio.



thats actually coming next year.

White Gardens
11-10-2008, 01:40 PM
Sweet, that patio will blend a little better with a good mass of shade perennials, sprinkled in with a few annuals.

Unless you get sun there.

zedosix
11-10-2008, 05:33 PM
Yeah ok. Joe blow is going to price it with seed and straw you price it with sod. Your price is 300 more. People want grass, not a golf course. I think most people can wait for seed to germinate rather than spend the extra for sod. If they want sod, then it is most likely brought up in the design review. It just seems silly to me to sod such a small area like this unless demanded by the customer.

All I'm saying is we just lay the sod, just cleans things up nicer, I cover the cost I don't charge the customer extra for it. They've already been charged enough! Nuff said.

DVS Hardscaper
11-10-2008, 06:22 PM
All I'm saying is we just lay the sod, just cleans things up nicer, I cover the cost I don't charge the customer extra for it. They've already been charged enough! Nuff said.


In the states, most established contractors charge for every single aspect affiliated with the job. Sod here in MD is expensive, and if you're repairing turf damage it's time consuming to blend the sod in with the existing turf.

Now if you mentioned using grass seed in the affluient areas of Wash DC - they'll throw you off their properties before you can blink an eye !

But if you're working at a home with a working family with middle class income - there is no way they'll do sod. They'd rather spend the dinero on lights or patio furniture.

zedosix
11-10-2008, 06:28 PM
DVS

Its really bugging me lately, I don't know but its your signature. I'm wondering if you've replaced any of those old worn out socks and shorts yet!

pdenney11
11-10-2008, 06:52 PM
I think it looks great. Some landscaping will really make it blend in well with the pool deck though.

DVS Hardscaper
11-10-2008, 07:25 PM
DVS

Its really bugging me lately, I don't know but its your signature. I'm wondering if you've replaced any of those old worn out socks and shorts yet!



Are you kidding??? They're now the most comfortable they've ever been!

TerraScapesMT
11-14-2008, 01:27 AM
Wow, I agree with zedosix. I guess it must be different depending on the area but around here, everybody uses sod. Whether its 5 square feet or 5,000. It just completes the job and when we walk off the jobsite - the job is done.

4Russl5
11-14-2008, 10:25 AM
It looks great.
The only thing I would be concious of is your rise and run on the stairs.I always build them to the user: elderly or kids? Otherwise keep it up!

Strawbridge Lawn
11-14-2008, 05:19 PM
I have a similiar job coming up. What did you use in the joints?

4 seasons lawn&land
11-14-2008, 05:36 PM
its all dry. Just top soil to be planted with moss or thyme.

OUTLANDER
11-19-2008, 11:02 AM
this is awsome, i like this alot....love the natural look, and if you'd change anything, or perfect it i mean you will take away from what its intended to do.....look natural.great job

Tyler7692
11-19-2008, 11:48 AM
How do you make the stairs? Do you have to put a base under them as well? Also, what did you use in the joints? What will keep the dirt from washing onto the rocks when it rains in those tight crevices in the stairs? Grass surely won't grow there.

Oh yeah, one more question, what did you use to cut the stone?

PatriotLandscape
11-19-2008, 03:17 PM
Yeah ok. Joe blow is going to price it with seed and straw you price it with sod. Your price is 300 more. People want grass, not a golf course. I think most people can wait for seed to germinate rather than spend the extra for sod. If they want sod, then it is most likely brought up in the design review. It just seems silly to me to sod such a small area like this unless demanded by the customer.

sound like you need a higher level customers. remember things are not equal when you go outside your region it may be very different where I work than you.

The customer will ALWAYS be happier with sod.

on another note what area of tropical New York do you live that in late october you throw down seed and now it is thick and full. That just doesn't happen this time of year in the northeast I don't care who you are.

punt66
11-19-2008, 03:51 PM
sound like you need a higher level customers. remember things are not equal when you go outside your region it may be very different where I work than you.

The customer will ALWAYS be happier with sod.

on another note what area of tropical New York do you live that in late october you throw down seed and now it is thick and full. That just doesn't happen this time of year in the northeast I don't care who you are.

What do you care? I have many high end customers and i have never used sod. never. All are long term very happy customers who keep adding work. They must be so unhappy.

4 seasons lawn&land
11-19-2008, 06:25 PM
sound like you need a higher level customers. remember things are not equal when you go outside your region it may be very different where I work than you.

The customer will ALWAYS be happier with sod.

on another note what area of tropical New York do you live that in late october you throw down seed and now it is thick and full. That just doesn't happen this time of year in the northeast I don't care who you are.



WTF, who the hell are you? Get lost loser.

4 seasons lawn&land
11-19-2008, 06:45 PM
How do you make the stairs? Do you have to put a base under them as well? Also, what did you use in the joints? What will keep the dirt from washing onto the rocks when it rains in those tight crevices in the stairs? Grass surely won't grow there.

Oh yeah, one more question, what did you use to cut the stone?


Ya, I dig a flat surface into the slope then down into it leaving the sides to fill up with a couple inches of stone dust. Grass would grow in the cracks, why not? I see it alot. This is actually going to be planted with moss or thyme though. I used an angle grinder with a diamond blade to score it then break it which i wont do again. Demo saw is the way to go!

OUTLANDER
11-20-2008, 08:47 AM
even looks good to grow some moss on these rocks

PatriotLandscape
11-20-2008, 08:55 PM
Wtf? First I said happier. I'm glad you have a high end clientel that dont demand the best. also I was talking to the person I quoted.

Sod is cheap if you are going through the trouble of seed and straw then sod is just as easy and most garden centers carry it from sod farms.

It may cost .40 a square foot but seed with the hassle of straw is not much cheaper.

4 seasons lawn&land
11-20-2008, 09:07 PM
no you were talking to me about growing grass in late october in "tropical new york" which i never said i did anyway. but it grows fine in early october when in put it down. and i dont care what it cost's you to do sod and how the hell you do it faster than seed and straw because here on planet earth sod is more work, more expensive, takes longer, and is less available, and even makes the customer much less happy when they have to pay for an unnessary expence.

YardPro
11-21-2008, 06:59 AM
we are on the same page as zedosix

we almost NEVER seed...
we sod everything...
yes, the seed will germinate in a few weeks, but then to get it to grow in as thick as sod, and having to go back to rake the straw aout of new tender grass, is just not economical....
what happens if you have a heavy rain???? seed washes away...

there are MANY pro's to sod...the only drawback is price...

OUTLANDER
11-21-2008, 08:35 AM
yardpro, you don't rake the straw out.Do that and you'll end up bringing up new growth too.Think the point is going nowhere here, it's what the customer prefers right...................what happens if sod gets no rain, i think both sides can have its economical down falls

TerraScapesMT
11-24-2008, 02:56 PM
Wtf? First I said happier. I'm glad you have a high end clientel that dont demand the best. also I was talking to the person I quoted.

Sod is cheap if you are going through the trouble of seed and straw then sod is just as easy and most garden centers carry it from sod farms.

It may cost .40 a square foot but seed with the hassle of straw is not much cheaper.

Around here sod is between $0.14 & $0.18 per square foot.

Allens LawnCare
11-25-2008, 12:32 AM
How much did you charge for a job like that....including materials

4 seasons lawn&land
11-25-2008, 01:08 PM
Well it's my parent's house so I didn't charge anything but it cost me and my dad $2000 and we split it for my mom's birthday.


Rock-950

Stone dust-120

Separation fabric-60

Gas- 350

Machine-450

Compactor-75

total-$2005


I think I'd charge $2500 for the work. $4500 total

vtscaper
12-04-2008, 12:16 AM
If we use seed on such a small area we always use Penn Mulch or a similar product. No pick up or straw blowing around, cleaner look and better germination. Give it a shot next time. Work looks good for your first. The dead space to the right of the wooden steps needs some thought.

4 seasons lawn&land
12-04-2008, 04:19 PM
both sides of the stairs are garden, where do you mean???

kootoomootoo
12-04-2008, 05:19 PM
Well it's my parent's house so I didn't charge anything but it cost me and my dad $2000 and we split it for my mom's birthday.


Rock-950

Stone dust-120

Separation fabric-60

Gas- 350

Machine-450

Compactor-75

total-$2005


I think I'd charge $2500 for the work. $4500 total

Gas- 350>????

4 seasons lawn&land
12-04-2008, 05:47 PM
Gas- 350>????

yeah. It was 4 bucks a gallon and I went to goshen mass with 2 3/4 ton truck's to get the stone at the quarry. Then 2 trips to rent the skid steer on different days. 1 trip for the plate compactor. 3 trips with a dump trailer for stone dust. A trip to dump the dug up dirt. Plus more im not thinking of.

mowerman87
12-05-2008, 01:19 PM
The stone is very interesting, I am not sure I have ever seen that style before. In regard to the preceding argument about sod vs. seed: I noticed many of you guys are from way up north and are therefore probably using a totally different grass anyway. Here it is very very hot for several months and when it rains, its a torrential downpour for a short time, so seed is risky. In fact, when I was applying winter rye a few weeks ago, I was so unlucky we got a hard rain the next day for a few minutes and freaking ran my seed everywhere- very frustrating and a waste of money. So my point is that, after a landscape job here, seed would be out of the question (even with hay, mulch, etc.) but way up north it could be feasible. Also, I agree with the statement that some shrubbery would frame the steps nicely and round out the rustic look.

AztlanLC
12-06-2008, 10:28 AM
I personally think using sod looks better but in most cases sod need an irrigation system in place or a good base preparation, also like my case the nearest place to get sod is like 35 miles away and they would only sell it in 500sqf. quantities is cheap tough but 500s sqf. of sod would end up costing about $500 with time gas and materials.
Some jobs that we do and know that either is too early or late in the season we save the grass that we strip and use that when we are finish.

Elegant Outdoor Lighting
12-07-2008, 08:50 PM
Good Work 4seasons. That stone dust should hold pretty good, only thing better would have been to mix up little concrete pads as you went. That would have ensured a totally flat surface, and flat treads for damn near forever. But what you did looks really nice, also like how it comes out the gate, that looks pro.

And this might sound crazy, but I would take saw cut out the existing concrete and make the natural stone half circle towards the pool (don't hit the bulkhead). You could then move that table over and use the stone area as the patio.

Forget those guys going crazy with sod. Seeding is fine, but I would put up an epic border and seed it with wildflowers. This would really set off your stone work and wouldn't your mom love that?

Anyways, looks damn good and your pricing seems about what I've seen in Nor Cal for this method, maybe a little low.

4 seasons lawn&land
12-07-2008, 10:05 PM
Thanks E.O.L.

I dont like the concrete either but my parents paid alot for that stamped and colored concrete when the pool was put in just 2 years ago. So thats staying for a while.

I cut that one rock at the gate to fit around the fence posts. I like that part too.

Whats an epic border? As far as flowers, moms a big gardener so she'll be taking care of that part.

Also, we are going to put small shrubs along the sides of the steps as a border.

Elegant Outdoor Lighting
12-08-2008, 02:55 PM
epic border is basically 2" bender board (doesn't warp in the sun like the thin stuff)

Yea, if you turned that straw part into a planter bed and put small shrubs next to the steps, good idea.