How low to scalp for summer

[turfnerd]

I was wondering how low does everybody scalp their costomers lawns spring green-up? And how much more do you charge?

[geogunn]

I put mine as low as she'll go and let 'er rip.

I provide this service for no extra charge.

GEO

[siclmn]

What would be the purpose of scalping the lawn? The only scalped lawns I ever see are done by lazy homeowners who don't want to mow as often. I hope you mean cut it shorter then normal but I still would like to know what that would do for the good of the lawn?

[awm]

i prettymuch do the same. learned that from a customer bout
20 yrs ago. he would tell me exactly how he wanted it cut . it was only later that i realised how smart he was. hes long gone on now.later
thought id better edit . cutting it short early gets the new growth
down low ,at a time when the grass is not stressed out .
may not be the only way ,but it works for me.

[turfnerd]

Here in Oklahama we have bermudagrass lawns. This grass goes dormant in the winter. Bermudagrass will green up faster it the dormant shag is cut off. Im not talking about lazy homeowners.

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Nooo noo noooo nooo noooooooooooooo!!!!

All are cut at the same height they will be mowed for the entire season. Most will be at or above 3 1/2 ".

Scalping or cutting real low for the first cut opens the lawn up for diseases and weeds.

That's asking for major problems in the future.

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Originally posted by turfnerd
Here in Oklahama we have bermudagrass lawns. This grass goes dormant in the winter. Bermudagrass will green up faster it the dormant shag is cut off. Im not talking about lazy homeowners.

You want to apply fertilizer to solve that, not scalp it.

[strickdad]

the fellow(LGF) above is 100% correct. do not scalp these lawns for the reasons listed above............

[turfnerd]

Originally posted by LAWNGODFATHER
Nooo noo noooo nooo noooooooooooooo!!!!

All are cut at the same height they will be mowed for the entire season. Most will be at or above 3 1/2 ".

Scalping or cutting real low for the first cut opens the lawn up for diseases and weeds.

That's asking for major problems in the future.

I see what you are getting at but preemergents are applied in february thru late march for summer weeds. fertilizer apps aren't applied until late april/ early may becuase our first frost free day isn't until April 15. I know this might sound crazy to you and its probably only done for aesthetics but its one more mow i can charge for.

[1grnlwn]

A lawn is only as healthy as its root system. I don't want to get on a rant here but a root system will adjust its depth to the cultural height of the grass. Short grass/ short roots, long grass / deeper roots. This is not hearsay it is fact. (check any turfgrass book its in there) So these guys out there that want to cut Bluegrass at 2"-2 1/2" go ahead have shallow roots. Have more weed pressure, be the first on your block to go dormant in the summer, be the last to recover in the fall. Start a nice blanket of thatch by cutting stems instead of leaves. But do me a favor, don't advise Joe 3 days in the business that this is what is best for the lawn. People cut grass short because they want it to look like carpet. Most don't care if it is grass carpet or clover carpet as long as its flat carpet. Of course they don't want any big brown piles of cuttings on there carpet so the mulch them in to many little brown piles of cuttings that follow the wheel tracks. Or they get really ignorant and bag them, nitrogen,moisture and all and send them to the land fill or Jimmy landscapers back yard. OOPs I'm sorry most cool season turf grasses thrive at 3" - 3 1/2" cut height.

Jimmy and Joe are ficticious characters and in no way represent past , present or future lawnsite.com members.

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Originally posted by turfnerd


I see what you are getting at but preemergents are applied in february thru late march for summer weeds. fertilizer apps aren't applied until late april/ early may becuase our first frost free day isn't until April 15. I know this might sound crazy to you and its probably only done for aesthetics but its one more mow i can charge for.

With the proper fertilization and weed control program you could get more total cuts in. One draw back, it will not happen this year. It will heppen in the 2003 season because it is the Fall aplications of fert that aids in the Spring green up.

By exposing the thatch layer and root system (and other numerous lower plant reagons) you open your self up to numerous major problems. However you are not maintaining a golf course, so you should expect to try and mow at the highest height your customers will allow. This will help in maintaining a healthy lush darker green lawn and can pose as the "carpet" look.

Since I take it this is your main grass type, try and get a book on Bermuda, read it cover to cover at least 3 times. This will help you on maintaining this type of grass species. Also there are many good points of interest in it that will help you generate more money out of mowing this type of grass. I'm not going to do all your home work, and I don't give out all my trade secrets.

This pic below is all Bermuda cut at 3 1/2" no fert or weed control, but has irr. Also the mowing season on this lawn is March to end of November. Like I said above, with the proper applications of fert and weed control you can extend your mowing season by many cuts.

BTW Pre-em will usualy only last for aprox 90 days also to be cost effective they are usualy applied with ferts. Frost free day does not matter in slow realese fert applications. You have lots of home work to do. :D

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Where in Ok are you, we need to set you up with some one from a close proxcimity.

[65hoss]

I cut Bermuda and Zoysia. I never scalp either. The above post are correct. Root develop is key for summer drought. I cut all my lawns at 3" to 3.25". Sometimes I will lower a 3.25" to 3, and a 3 down to 2.75". But never more than that.

[jeffex]

people cut grass low in the spring because they don't know any better. It is one of those things that you do because your parents did it. Like people on the east coast who buy up all the bread,milk, and toilet paper if they even mention snow!!! It is a BAD habit. Lawngodfather is on the money!!!!! It opens up a lawn to weed seed germination and stresses the grass just as it begins to grow. Tell your customers if they want healthy turf to cut it often and leave it longer. A good commercial wb will give a carpet cut look even cut at 4"

[LoneStarLawn]

You also waste organic matter when scalping.

Plus it is hard on your equipment.

[MuskTurfKing]

My step-dad has me cut our own lawn pretty short in the beginning of the season before he puts fert down, he says it gets to the soil better....what's your views on that?

Hank

[LoneStarLawn]

Originally posted by MuskTurfKing
My step-dad has me cut our own lawn pretty short in the beginning of the season before he puts fert down, he says it gets to the soil better....what's your views on that?

Hank

Use a sod cutter then the fertilizer can really get to the soil even better.

[MuskTurfKing]

So cutting it lower would help? It's a big pain, I have to cut it multiple times and it really does bog the mower down.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a sod cutter? Do you have any brands to recommend so I can check them out?

Hank

[LoneStarLawn]

I was being sarcastic Hank.

If you are just cutting low and not scalping then I guess it is OK but I don't see the point with that referring to fertilizer getting to the soil better. I really don't think it makes a difference. You are just assuming that taking a step backward will help you take two steps forward. ( I can not agree with that)


"Sod Cutter" is used to remove the sod.... hence my sarcasm

[MuskTurfKing]

Lol, NOW I really feel like a ******ed idiot. Pardon me while I go hang my head in shame and cry. Lol.

Hank

[jeffex]

aERATION HELPS GET THE FERT. into the soil but pre-m is a barrier on the surface to help prevent seed germination. pre-m late feb-march. aeration w/fert in april

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Originally posted by jeffex
aERATION HELPS GET THE FERT. into the soil but pre-m is a barrier on the surface to help prevent seed germination. pre-m late feb-march. aeration w/fert in april

Ummm ok

Doing that like you said defetes the purpose of using a pre emergant.

You aerate after you put pre em down you break the very expensive surface barrier they just paid a lot of money for.

Lets not beet around the bush here, this guy needs to get and read some books on turf, not read all the verying posts.

These lawns need to get on a IPM program, not scalped.

Scalping a lawn is in the dark ages. A myth that will burn you every time.

Instead of doing scalping you need to up-sell all the extras, you one extra cut your doing is doing more harm than good.

[turfnerd]

Hybrid bermuda grass can be cut at 3/16 of an inch. Common bermuda (text books say should be cut at .5 to 1.5 of an inch.) What text books don't say is that you have to cut it every three to four days during the growing season to keep bermuda at that height, if it is water and fertilized. Well the costomer here will not pay for it to be cut every 3 to 4 days. So what happens is we have to mow it higher so that we don't cut off more a third of the grass blade and scalp it during the mowing season. I have seen bermudagrass mowed at 4 inches. Lowering the mowing height to one inch when the grass is dormant might make it more susceptible to weeds, but is not below the average mowing height for burmudagrass

[MuskTurfKing]

BUT if you whack it off all at once, it stresses the grass to make it vulnerable to all that bad stuff. Remember the 1/3 rule.

Hank

[turfnerd]

the grass is dormant. all of the carbohydrate reserves are in the roots. the of it as trimming a crap merdle. it will make it thicker and have more blooms

[awm]

i can see you fellas logic,and i dont necessarily mean take it all the way dn. but i do make my short cut then as i believe it sets up the whole season of new growth.ive never seen any stress at all here fromv setting a lawn up like this early in sprng.
dont mean its right ,just works for me. later now.

[turfnerd]

Thank you awm, finally somebody gets me. I to have never seen any stress just faster greenup

[MuskTurfKing]

I THINK (there goes that word again) that your trying to say your not actually "scalping" the grass (at least I hope so). Scalping is not good for it, I can care less what you tell me. I think your just saying, instead of cutting at 3 1/2", cutting at like 2 - 2 1/2" or something like that. Am I right?

Hank

[LAWNGODFATHER]

text books say should be cut at .5 to 1.5 of an inch
Riiiiiiiiiiggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhtttttt

For a golf course!!!!

We are talking about lawns not well maintianed, well monitored, and well manicured golf courses.

Looks like you have a book;)

Try and maintain a cut hight of at least 3".

1) Will make the lawn more drought tolerent

2) Will make it thicker and aid in weed surpession

3) Will make it thrive and want to root deeper

4) Will extend your growing season

I can go on and on for what it will benifit you, and I can go on and on for what damage you can do. Read up and good luck

[George777]

I do not see any problems with scalping Bermuda in spring in fact it will help. You might get a thicker lawn, a better green up, and also bagging thatch. Common bermuda should be maintained at 1"-2". Not many maintain that height so if most of you wanted to scalp it you might be able to drop your deck to 1". The books tell ya also not to maintain the turf to high (i.e 3") because this may set it up for insects any disease. We don't live in a perfect world and I've had to maintain some accounts at 3" because they were BI-monthly cuts. Also the perfect world that many read about are located on perfectly flat terrain with no dips or low spots.

I know Bermuda has the best Recuperative capacity and so your not gonna kill it by scalping it in spring. Some people out here even burn it.

I would just do what works best for you. As for me only Bermuda will get a good short haircut in spring.


*thatch - accumulation of dead & living plant material that develops between the soil surface and green leaves of a turf.
1. Restricts water & air
2. Environment for pests
3. Mowing difficult
4. Restricts fert and pesticides

3 main reasons for thatch
to much N2
improper mowing
poor soil environment

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Originally posted by turfnerd
Thank you awm, finally somebody gets me. I to have never seen any stress just faster greenup

So your cutting off the dead/dormant plant tissue only?

Not scalping like you have said this whole time.

The 1/3 rule still applies.

Thatch control (http://www.gov.on.ca/OMAFRA/english/crops/facts/thatchcn.htm#thatch)

You right "777" not a perfect world. I maintain my burmuda at 3.5" no problems.

[LAWNS AND MOWER]

I'll be applying granular pre-emergent fert. in about 3 weeks. I've noticed some of my accounts are shaggy looking due to a mild fall/winter. Would it be prudent to mow (not scalp) these accounts short before applying the premee?

LAWNS AND MOWER

[KirbysLawn]

This is amazing.....

It totally depends on where and what kind of grass is being cut. When you post a question like this please ask and include the TYPE OF GRASS being mowed. IF you do it that way all this debating will not take place! He have people saying yes, others no, all talking about different types of grass.

IF you are talking about a warm season grass like Bermuda then yes scalp it at the begining of the season. All visible grass is brown and dormant, cutting that grass off has ZERO effect on the root system of dormant Bermuda.

When the Bermuda starts to grow it will be all green and look much better, any accidental scalps or uneven cuts will not look so bad. If you leave all the dormant grass and wait until it is green on top, all grass below will be brown and any low cuts will look like sh**. Remember, some are talking about having 3.5" of dormant grass, get rid of some of that!

[goodbeus]

Originally posted by LAWNGODFATHER
Nooo noo noooo nooo noooooooooooooo!!!!

All are cut at the same height they will be mowed for the entire season. Most will be at or above 3 1/2 ".

Scalping or cutting real low for the first cut opens the lawn up for diseases and weeds.

That's asking for major problems in the future.


I totally agree, scalping also exposes the roots to the sun and can burn the exposed roots and it also looks extremely bad...I pick up so many new clients from other companies that do this...

[1grnlwn]

KirbysLawn, I would agree with your analisis of the warm season grasses. Warm season turfgrasses roots are annual and start new every spring. The plant needs lots of stored energy to do this. That may be why cutting it low early would give the plant vigor. I would think that in the late summer when these grasses are producing the most food you would want to keep them a little long for carbohydrate storage. Hey did you know arguements are a great way to learn stuff. Whether you win or lose you never forget. I have learned a lot in the past couple of days.

Mark

[LoneStarLawn]

I can understand Bermuda to the extent, but I can't see St. Augustine getting the same treatment and benefiting more than harming it.

[KirbysLawn]

Alan, that was my point. People keep yelling Noooo, donnnntttt and all without finding out what what type of grass we are talking about.

[LAWNS AND MOWER]

My bad. Let me be specific this time. I'll be applying granular pre-emergent fertilizer on my accounts in about 3 weeks. The grasses I deal with are cool season grasses such as Kentucky 31, Rye, Fescue, etcc. I've noticed some of my accounts look shaggy due to a mild fall/winter. Would it be prudent to mow (not scalp) these yards short before applying the premee fertilizer?????

Thanks LAWNS AND MOWER

[KirbysLawn]

I would not scalp any cool season grass. I am currently applying my Dimension now, here in the Charlotte area. I will follow it up in 6 weeks with a second application and will be done with the pre-m apps.

[LoneStarLawn]

Originally posted by KirbysLawn
Alan, that was my point. People keep yelling Noooo, donnnntttt and all without finding out what what type of grass we are talking about.

I agree with you Ray. I was pointing out the statement Mark (<i>1grnlwn</i>) made that all warm seasons grasses fit into your statement.

[Evan528]

Originally posted by LAWNGODFATHER



Doing that like you said defetes the purpose of using a pre emergant.

You aerate after you put pre em down you break the very expensive surface barrier they just paid a lot of money for.

Lets not beet around the bush here, this guy needs to get and read some books on turf, not read all the verying posts.


Mike, Many recent studies done by Universities have proven that aeration after the application of Pre-emergent does not effect the pre- emergent barrior in the soil. I am baffled as too how that can be also but have read it from reliable sources over and over again latly.

[fshrdan]

turfnerd, to answer your question...

I cut to 1" in spring with a Walker, it makes the job so much easier. If you have a very level yard with not many undulations, you can take the washers out of the deck adjustment and get it to .5". If you don't have that kind of deck, decrease the tire pressure a little to drop the height even more. All this assuming you aren't using a reel mower.

I charge $20/1000 sq ft to scalp. You're going to generate alot of debris, and you're going to have to get rid of it. This is for one time scalping customers.

For regular customers, I start about this time(Mid Feb) to take it down little by little so I'm not making my life a complete hell in late March. I charge regular mowing prices for this.

[NateinAtl]

I follow similar practices as FshrDan when dealing with bermuda.

Hybrid bermuda looks the best when maintained at 1 to 1.5 inches. When I am confident we won't have another frost, I scalp down to .5 to .75 inches and take away the clippings.

I then mow the lawn on a weekly basis at 1 to 1.5 inches(this is why there are a lot of topdressing co.s in Atlanta)

By keeping the lawn cut at this height on a weekly basis, it allows for the sun to get down to the lower parts of the leaf which in turn gives the lawn a lusher green color.

I would never consider scalping fescue lawns!!!!

So go ahead and scalp the bermuda out there. That's what all well-manicured propertiesdo.

[turfnerd]

fshrdan and NateinAtl Thanks for your replies.

[lawnstudent]

:blob3:

Lowering the cutting height in spring does promote a faster green-up. This lets the sun penetrate the turf, warming the soil and stimulating earlier plant growth, provided you are not mowing so low as to damage the crown of the grass.

This has no long term affect on root depth, provided the mowing height is increased as the temperatures rise and the crown is unharmed. Cool season grasses do not devlope roots is spring. Root development/growth occurs primarily in fall.

Scalping the grass to the soil surface is bad as you are damaging the grass crowns. This will slow the turf's recovery and promote weeds.

[1grnlwn]

lawnstudent, Where are you getting your information that root don't grow in the spring?

Mark

[lawnstudent]

Root growth of a cool season grass occurs when the soil temperatures reach or exceed 55 degrees F. The grasses here in Illionois will start leaf development long before the soils reaches 55 degress F. Lawns green up in early April, depending upon the weather. Soils don't typically reach 55 degress until late April/May. You are right in that I should not have said "no root growth occurs in spring". The primary season for root development of a cool season grass (especially here in Illinois) is in the fall, after the summer heat and drought has broken. In fact, the summer heat and drought can kill the root system of a cool season grass. It is not uncommon for the grasses here to grow new roots every year or two.

Also note that root die off is common for warm season grasses like Bermudagrass. This occurs because there is not enough stored energy to support both the topgrowth and root system. According to my training, this is most common when spring green-up starts early due to weather.

[1grnlwn]

Where in Illinois are you from?

[lawnstudent]

Northeastern subs of Chicago.

[paul]

Now I might be a bit dumb on this subject but, if no or little root growth occurs in the warm weather how and why would sod root? As a landscaper who seeds and sods from April thru December I know that sod and seed grows roots thru these months, Ok some time it stops earlier in the fall, That hard freeze thingy but if you don't think cool season grasses don't grow roots when it's warm, then all that sod we lay would be dead.

[groundsguy1970]

Here's my thing to add:


This guy said it right:Lowering the cutting height in spring does promote a faster green-up. This lets the sun penetrate the turf, warming the soil and stimulating earlier plant growth, provided you are not mowing so low as to damage the crown of the grass.


I mow shorter than any of you "rotary" guys.......I'm @ 1.5 inch in the summer.......
I mow SUPER SHORT now....fert,......and let her rip!!!


Mind you I mow with a reel so my lawns are different than your rotary lawns.


Fall is the BEST time to fert.....here if you ferted once a year do it on Thanksgiving.


Short lawns in the spring here allow birds to eat "grubs (crane flys)...tall grass gives 'em a place to hide....Also here if you mow as tall as some of you guys claim.....FUNGI will chow your grass...


KEEP IT SHORT AND TIDY!!!:cool:

[lawnstudent]

Paul says:

..."if you don't think cool season grasses don't grow roots when it's warm, then all that sod we lay would be dead."

Sod and seed grows through the hot summer days of July and early August only because you force your clients to water on a daily bases to keep it alive! Heck, you can keep sod alive on concrete in the summer if you use enough water. And I KNOW THERE are NO roots growing in that concrete!!!!

[1grnlwn]

Short lawns in the spring here allow birds to eat "grubs (crane flys)...tall grass gives 'em a place to hide....Also here if you mow as tall as some of you guys claim.....FUNGI will chow your grass...

Thats because of all the moisture you get right? Do you get it all summer? Here it gets hot and rains stop about July 4th. Rains again in mid September. You had better have deep roots and lots of carbs stored or dead grass. Thats why we mow the cool season grass tall. The carbs are generated in the leaf of the plant. More leaf more carbs. What kind of turf do you have? Just interested.

See I knew the impatient people would get tired of this thread and we would all learn something.

PS we don,t have many irrigated lawns around here.

Mark

[paul]

I think you missed the point. Grasses grow root systems thru out the growing season. They may slow down and in some cases stop because of lack of moisture.

[lawnstudent]

Paul,

I think the point is that grasses, like any plant, will attempt to grow as long as the conditions exist to allow it to grow. My point is simply that cool season grasses do encounter heat and drought stress in summer in Northern Illinois. With no external alteration of their environment, like irregation, they will stop the growth of root development. Even to the point of the roots dying off. That was MY point. I find that point facinating and only wanted to share that with other folks here who I thought might also find that interesting.

[1grnlwn]

1. . Cool season grasses do not devlope roots is spring.

2. Sod and seed grows through the hot summer days of July and early August only because you force your clients to water on a daily bases to keep it alive!

3. My point is simply that cool season grasses do encounter heat and drought stress in summer in Northern Illinois. With no external alteration of their environment, like irregation, they will stop the growth of root development. Even to the point of the roots dying off. That was MY point.

4. Heck, you can keep sod alive on concrete in the summer if you use enough water.

1. So you are recanting this statement?

2. You need only to lay some sod and care for it to understand that you are incorrect.

3. Yes they stop growing to supply the plant the energy to survive, in (drought conditions)

4. Do that this summer it would be a good science fair project. Like to see the results.

You can't force a customer to do any thing.

Mark

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Heck, you can keep sod alive on concrete in the summer if you use enough water.
Do that this summer it would be a good science fair project. Like to see the results.

Been done, ever heard of Scott's?

They did this some 20 years ago.

I think they still feture this in their pamphlet they send out.

[Holloway Lawns]

I only mow low when I am removing the thatch and this is the only time I will bag as well. I do this Before spring. Then I suggest core arriating and applying pre mergant. After this mow 3.5" at the min because the roots will go depper and the taller grass does not allow as much sun for the weeds to get their share this helps keep out the weeds. Any one agree?

[1grnlwn]

lgf,
Yes I have heard of Scotts, They sell fertilizer at Home Depot. What does their (feature) have to do with sod taking root?

[LAWNGODFATHER]

You comented on doing it as an expeirament. I wrote it has been done already and proven.

It does work.

[groundsguy1970]

LGM:
The life cycle of a plant is to germinate (1 or 2 leaves) create foliage, then set seed. If it becomes estabilished it will set roots in the fall.....in the spring the plant's energy is channeled upwards....in the fall it goes down. This is why one sprays for weeds in the fall, unless treating annuals.:) Sod won't root anyway with you mow monkeys running heavy equiptment over it all the time anyways....:rolleyes:

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Who's LGM Powerreel/groundsguy1970?


BTW the post on life of a grass plant is only half true.

[David Haggerty]

Originally posted by LAWNGODFATHER
Who's LGM Powerreel/groundsguy1970?



Well? Who has been doing all of that spellin'? And how'd you find the punctuaction keys?

Just kiddin' you. I'm always glad to read your posts. (Your ghostwriter's posts too.)


Hey! I saw a guy grow grass on a Buick once! He had to water it twice a day because the metal got so hot. Mowed it with hand shears. He was promoting some hydroseeding mixture.

lawnstudent:

Thankd for the info. Your post on scalping was very concise. I'd like to copy it and print it on the back of the bills I send out this spring.

Dave

[jeffex]

Maybe you read my post in a purple haze lawn godlather. I did not suggest aeration right after applying pre-m . I'm no expert like yorself BUT my experience in my area has shown pre-m to be effective on HELPING stop seed germination for only a short while. Soon the weed seeds from other lawns blow in the wind and it is time for a new treatment. Then you can aerate without concern for the pre-m barrier. come back Eric!!!!!!

[David Haggerty]

Originally posted by jeffex
Maybe you read my post in a purple haze lawn godlather .

Misspelled?

[kutnkru]

Originally posted by KirbysLawn
... It totally depends on where and what kind of grass is being cut. When you post a question like this please ask and include the TYPE OF GRASS being mowed. ...Actually Ray he did -LOL!!! The mistake is he waited 'til about 5 others had posted and then specified which grass he was referring too.

I went back thru after reading this post when I got to yours to see if he even mentioned and it was "shoved" in there -LOL!!!

Seems as though we might need a class on posting etiquette. Gawd Almighty knows I could use some refining. :D

[brucec32]

Originally posted by Remo
What would be the purpose of scalping the lawn? The only scalped lawns I ever see are done by lazy homeowners who don't want to mow as often. I hope you mean cut it shorter then normal but I still would like to know what that would do for the good of the lawn?

I guess you learn something every day here then, Remo. "Scalping" gets rid of the "dead" stems from last seasons growth, allows sunlight to get to the soil, warming it more and speeding greenup, and makes for a greener look (no brown stems mixed in with green leafy part of plant on top). If done before greenup it has no harmful affects that I've noticed. But since it's a pain to take off tons of clippings, I only go to about 1 or 1.5", not to the dirt, unless they want to pay extra for that, then it's their problem.

[brucec32]

Originally posted by strickdad
the fellow(LGF) above is 100% correct. do not scalp these lawns for the reasons listed above............

Sorry, you're both not considering how it's done in different parts of the country on this one, at least for this area. You forget that not everybody mows Bermuda at the same height all the time due to growth exceeding mowing frequency at times (nobody wants to pay for 2x week mowing ). So, many cutters gradually raise the mowing height to avoid a "stemy" look as the summer progresses. If you don't do that, you'll wind up cutting woody stem material and it looks bad. (no, you cannot slow down growth enough through fert. techniques to prevent this) Also, some lawns are poorly installed and graded and mowing at textbook (very low) height will leave it looking scalped from the flaws in the terrain. So, they have to make sure there is plenty o' green up top, so they mow higher. If grass is growing fast, they have to raise height to keep the green part showing.

This means that you wind up with 3 1/2" or even 4" of brown stems at the end of the season, but the turf looks great in the Spring at 2". To avoid mixing in brown stems with green leaves, you mow it lower than say, 2", so you have only green "up top" and visable. If you start mowing at 3 1/2 or 4 inches in the Spring, you have to go to unacceptably high mowing heights to avoid the above problem. It looks puffy and you'll have problems.

I agree that mowing it down to the dirt does open it up for weed problems, but mowed at maybe 1" or 1.5" is a good compromise, since it still crowds out many weeds and is still below your Springtime starting mowing height. The weed problems you do have are manageable on well maintained turf, since the Bermuda will green up and fill in faster, crowding them out, and the first hot spell usually handles any weeds not solved by herbicides.

I've done it both ways, but on some lawns it does look better "scalped".

PLCAA certified turfgrass manager, 11 years experience

[brucec32]

Originally posted by 1grnlwn
A lawn is only as healthy as its root system. I don't want to get on a rant here but a root system will adjust its depth to the cultural height of the grass. Short grass/ short roots, long grass / deeper roots. This is not hearsay it is fact. (check any turfgrass book its in there) So these guys out there that want to cut Bluegrass at 2"-2 1/2" go ahead have shallow roots. Have more weed pressure, be the first on your block to go dormant in the summer, be the last to recover in the fall. Start a nice blanket of thatch by cutting stems instead of leaves. But do me a favor, don't advise Joe 3 days in the business that this is what is best for the lawn. People cut grass short because they want it to look like carpet. Most don't care if it is grass carpet or clover carpet as long as its flat carpet. Of course they don't want any big brown piles of cuttings on there carpet so the mulch them in to many little brown piles of cuttings that follow the wheel tracks. Or they get really ignorant and bag them, nitrogen,moisture and all and send them to the land fill or Jimmy landscapers back yard. OOPs I'm sorry most cool season turf grasses thrive at 3" - 3 1/2" cut height.

Jimmy and Joe are ficticious characters and in no way represent past , present or future lawnsite.com members.

I'd have to check my textbooks but I don't believe the root system adjusts its depth to the height of dead stems from last season's growth in DORMANT Bermudagrass. And most guides show Bermuda tolerates mowing to 1/2" or less, so I doubt it's going to thin it much mowing the stems once a year before greenup. I assume this is about Bermuda or Zoysia because scalping grasses like Fescue or maybe Bluegrass would cut the crown and harm it.

[brucec32]

Originally posted by MuskTurfKing
BUT if you whack it off all at once, it stresses the grass to make it vulnerable to all that bad stuff. Remember the 1/3 rule.

Hank

The stems....that they're mowing....are dormant! This means no photosynthesis is taking place in that part of the plant ever again. You're not stressing it. It's surviving off of carbohydrate reserves in the root system, not anything to do with normal active growth. It will create leafy material as needed from stored reserves, not dead stems.

Yes, scalping it when green damages it, may kill back the roots, and such, but I assume the guy is talking about mowing off dead stuff that will never again every be green and will take months to decay on its own. So if not "scalped" the lawn ends up looking mottled (green and brown mixed together ) and not as green as it could.

Have any of you guys against this practice ever tried it? It's not a night and day difference, but it does seem to help and is the customary practice here.

And as for the person claiming mowing stems causes thatch. Yes, the stemmy part is what causes thatch, but you bag the stems when scalping for best results.

[brucec32]

Originally posted by goodbeus
I totally agree, scalping also exposes the roots to the sun and can burn the exposed roots and it also looks extremely bad...I pick up so many new clients from other companies that do this...

1. LOL, do you live on Mercury or something? How much sun damage is one getting in late February, March or early April? I'm still wearing a jacket and hoping for more sun.

2. lawns mowed a little lower than end of season heights look better, if they're not mowed to the dirt. They look uniform and not ragged like they otherwise would. There's a tradeoff there in terms of weeds, but if you've solved the weeds in the past they shouldn't be too much of a problem. I walked with my wife down the road I grew up on, where my parents still live, in later years transformed into a totally different upscale neighborhood, last week (Paul Newman and Joann Woodward have a house there, as does our city's mayor, and President Carter's former attorney, ok, so it's not a bunch of crummy starter homes, these are top quality lawns, ok?) Almost every Bermuda lawn's stems had been recently mowed lower to keep a clean look. So obviously it doesn't make it look worse. And obviously that kind of customer isn't going to put up with someone making their lawns look bad or damaging them. Taking it down 1/4" or 1/2" a month over the winter is a good strategy, I think.

3. The roots aren't exposed. You're not digging into the soil. The Rhizomes should still be underground, and the Stolons will still be above ground on high mowed turf, too. But LACK of sunlight is the problem at this time of the year, not too much! That's the whole point....getting MORE sunlight to warm up the soil.

4. I've done this on some accounts and not on others as I saw fit and budgets dictated. Not a single complaint about it in 11 years, and several requests TO do it from customers. Maybe those guys are doing something else wrong that's getting you so many new customers, like "scalping" too late. But it isn't because warm season turf lawns were properly mowed lown before greenup.

5. I see you're in Jacksonville. That's mostly St. Augustine there, isn't it? (the name of the grass comes from a place about 30 miles down the road from there). I assumed that he's talking about scalping Bermudagrass, not St. Augustine, which from my limited reading about it needs to be mowed high and has a totally different growth habit. I sure wouldn't scalp it.

[brucec32]

Originally posted by LAWNS AND MOWER
My bad. Let me be specific this time. I'll be applying granular pre-emergent fertilizer on my accounts in about 3 weeks. The grasses I deal with are cool season grasses such as Kentucky 31, Rye, Fescue, etcc. I've noticed some of my accounts look shaggy due to a mild fall/winter. Would it be prudent to mow (not scalp) these yards short before applying the premee fertilizer?????

Thanks LAWNS AND MOWER

If it looks shaggy and you think customers might think you're neglecting it, I suppose you could mow it at its minimum height (2 -2.5" for Tall Fescue, depending on cultivar) w/o really damaging it, but it does do better at higher mowing heights. So yes, it's good that it's cleared up what you're talking about. I just assumed Bermuda or other warm season turf.

[brucec32]

Originally posted by NateinAtl
I follow similar practices as FshrDan when dealing with bermuda.

Hybrid bermuda looks the best when maintained at 1 to 1.5 inches. When I am confident we won't have another frost, I scalp down to .5 to .75 inches and take away the clippings.

I then mow the lawn on a weekly basis at 1 to 1.5 inches(this is why there are a lot of topdressing co.s in Atlanta)

By keeping the lawn cut at this height on a weekly basis, it allows for the sun to get down to the lower parts of the leaf which in turn gives the lawn a lusher green color.

I would never consider scalping fescue lawns!!!!

So go ahead and scalp the bermuda out there. That's what all well-manicured propertiesdo.


See? I knew I wasn't crazy. Somebody else here does it too. I don't mow at 1.5", because I only use rotary mowers and my customers aren't getting much topdressing done. I've avoided most of the problem by mowing mostly the Fescue lawns. They're sooooo easy in comparison. The drawback is they look depressingly bad in the heat and drought of summer. I start most Bermuda lawns at 1.5" to 2" and work up to 3.0" to 4.0" by summer's end, depending on the realities of their lawn and mowing frequency they'll pay for.

[brucec32]

Originally posted by lawnstudent
:blob3:

Lowering the cutting height in spring does promote a faster green-up. This lets the sun penetrate the turf, warming the soil and stimulating earlier plant growth, provided you are not mowing so low as to damage the crown of the grass.

This has no long term affect on root depth, provided the mowing height is increased as the temperatures rise and the crown is unharmed. Cool season grasses do not devlope roots is spring. Root development/growth occurs primarily in fall.

Scalping the grass to the soil surface is bad as you are damaging the grass crowns. This will slow the turf's recovery and promote weeds.

Good point about watching out for the crowns on cool season turf. But I think I need to make a small correction. I understand that root depth IS affected by the length of blade because they can die back if there is not enough topgrowth to sustain the root's needs.

[brucec32]

Originally posted by groundsguy1970
Here's my thing to add:


This guy said it right:


I mow shorter than any of you "rotary" guys.......I'm @ 1.5 inch in the summer.......
I mow SUPER SHORT now....fert,......and let her rip!!!


Mind you I mow with a reel so my lawns are different than your rotary lawns.


Fall is the BEST time to fert.....here if you ferted once a year do it on Thanksgiving.


Everything I've read says nothing about mowing height contributing to fungi. More a problem with excess fertility, moisture, drought stress, etc. Then again, I suppose it depends on variety, and lord knows what you have up there.

Short lawns in the spring here allow birds to eat "grubs (crane flys)...tall grass gives 'em a place to hide....Also here if you mow as tall as some of you guys claim.....FUNGI will chow your grass...


KEEP IT SHORT AND TIDY!!!:cool:

[lawnstudent]

Originally posted by brucec32
Good point about watching out for the crowns on cool season turf. But I think I need to make a small correction. I understand that root depth IS affected by the length of blade because they can die back if there is not enough topgrowth to sustain the root's needs.

My point a year ago, though it may not have been articulated well, was relative to the first mowing in spring. Subsequent mowings should be adjusted to the culture needs of your particular grass type and the local weather conditions. Yes, we both agree that blade length has a direct bearing on root depth when you consider the entire growing season, not just the first cut of the season.

jim

[ipm]

Originally posted by George777
I do not see any problems with scalping Bermuda in spring in fact it will help. You might get a thicker lawn, a better green up, and also bagging thatch. Common bermuda should be maintained at 1"-2". Not many maintain that height so if most of you wanted to scalp it you might be able to drop your deck to 1". The books tell ya also not to maintain the turf to high (i.e 3") because this may set it up for insects any disease. We don't live in a perfect world and I've had to maintain some accounts at 3" because they were BI-monthly cuts. Also the perfect world that many read about are located on perfectly flat terrain with no dips or low spots.

I know Bermuda has the best Recuperative capacity and so your not gonna kill it by scalping it in spring. Some people out here even burn it.

I would just do what works best for you. As for me only Bermuda will get a good short haircut in spring.


*thatch - accumulation of dead & living plant material that develops between the soil surface and green leaves of a turf.
1. Restricts water & air
2. Environment for pests
3. Mowing difficult
4. Restricts fert and pesticides

3 main reasons for thatch
to much N2
improper mowing
poor soil environment


This is the 1st time I have heard that scalping will harm the turf.

"Ask 10 horticultursists 1 question and you will get 10 different answers."

I will have to look into this more, because i scalp a lot of warm season grasses. I have never had any problems, in fact it seems to help with thatching problems and removes the dead grass --in return helping with quicker green up and less trailing of dead plant matter.


If you think about it, quicker green up means a quicker stand of grass. And any good stand of warm season turf will make weed germination less likely.

I think a lot of confusion is due to the varying of zones :confused:

We usually try to get this done before the 1st round of pre-m