licensing

[creative concepts]

I have been pondering over this for some time now and figured I would get others opinions on the matter.

How come a company needs to be a licensed electrician, plumber, contractor or builder but yet you do not need to be licensed to be a landscaper? I know you can get a license to be a landscape contractor and I currently have one but why is it not manditory? It is manditory to have a license to be a lawn care company (i.e. fert. weed control, etc..) but why not the industry as a whole? There are so many hack jobs companies out there that do not pay for insurance, taxes, workmans comp or try to expand on their knowledge. I will not even get into the maintenance end of this.

I think if we (the landscape industry) stood up and spoke our minds to the legislation and our associations (ALCA, NJLCA, PLCA etc..) we can change this and make it manditory to be licensed which would weed out A LOT of the scrubs and hackjobs.

This is just my thoughts on the subject and would love to know what others think. Maybe in some states it is manditory but in NJ it is not.

Chris
Creative Concepts Landscape Design & Management

[Richard Martin]

In Maryland it is required for a company or person to get a Maryland Home Improvement Commision license if you are doing actual landscaping. That would be installing sidewalks, retaining walls, grading etc. If all you are doing is installing plants or cutting grass then no special license is required. Most of the really small landscapers (1 to 5 man companies) around me don't bother with the license. The state only raises a fuss about the license if someone calls them to complain.

[creative concepts]

That is what I don't understand and probably never will. If you are an electrician it doesn't matter if you are wiring a whole house or putting in just one light switch, It is mandatory to have a license. Same with a plumber, if it is a large job or just fixing a leaky faucet they still need a license. With most of these fields, you also need to do a few years of apprentice work before you can even think about applying for a license. Why shouldn't the landscape industry be the same? We are still working on the homeowner's property.

I apologize for my anger, but this topic really bothers me and I feel something needs to be done


Chris
Creative Concepts Landscape Design & Management

[2 man crew]

I agree 100%. It would make it a little harder for some of the guys to get into the business and lowball. It would also raise the standard and our reputation as a whole. It would be nice if every one in the green industry had to be licensed. One problem would be enforcement. It would be very easy to enforce licensing on the commercial side. I think it would be hard to check all the guys doing only residential. And that is where 50% of the priority needs to placed.

If your really serious about getting things changed you could Wright up a letter and mailing addresses. Post it on this web site and guys like me would copy it, sign it and send it. I don't know if this would work. Just a thought.

[creative concepts]

I agree that it would be difficult to montior and enforce the residential side, but in the same aspect the EPA and DEP had no problem finding and stoping me last season to check my credentials(sp?). I don't want to deter(sp?) new comers from entering the field but I feel they need to gain some experience first to learn the aspects of the industry and then they can try to go out on their own.

I am extremely serious about following through with it and that is a good idea about writing a letter and posting it. I just have to get the address and contacts that the letter needs to go to.

Thanks for the input. For awhile there I thought I was the only one who felt like this.

Chris
Creative Concepts Landscape Design & Management

[1grnlwn]

Back in the 20s the trades were tired of scrubs and started Unions. They put forth a set of requirements and rules. If you did not abide by these rules you were beat up or even killed. Mob rules mentality. (no pun intended) Don't think that would fly today, so we should stop crying about scrubs and concentrate on our business. Electricians don't need license in all situations. Depends on the municipality of job. You do need license to own electrical company, but not to work for company.

I think licensing is tied to public safety. Electrical contractor can burn down the block. Plumber can back siphon sewage into the towns water hole. Fert guy can kill all the fish in the creek. Of course unions are very supportive of these practices because it restricts entry. And saves bats.

Yes they are annoying
yes they need to make a living too
no I don't think you will ever convince politicians you need a license to mow grass and plant trees.

Local associations might work, but I think the guys that are doing the best would laugh and you would definitely need ALL of them to make it fly.

Mark

[David Haggerty]

If you don't do $6,000 in business you don't have to collect sales tax. I call it the "scrub" exemption.
It just means to me that the average scrub will be 6% cheaper than my prices.

Dave

[creative concepts]

1grnlwn,

I am not worried about the competition from the scrubs because the quality of work that my company does. But I feel that with a license it will protect both the industry and the homeowner. I can't tell you how many phone calls I receive to do a repair job on walls that have failed, water features that do not work properly or at all, etc... With some kind of license structure in place it would eliminate a lot of the construction work being done by unqualified people. I know it is part of my job to educate the homeowner, but it would also eliminate the sterotypical response of "all landscaper's are the same, they just want to rip people off." It does not happen very often and I overcome it with my responses, but it would be nice to not have to.

Like I said earlier in this reply, I am not concerned with competing with the scrubs, it would just be nice to have some kind of standard in place that would be come the norm for all to achieve.

Chris
Creative Concepts Landscape Design & Management

[Randy Scott]

Enforcement, enforcement, enforcement. They just don't have the resources to enforce this and when push comes to shove, voters are not going to want to spend extra in taxes to have it taken care of. I commend you on your efforts, but I think you are fighting a loosing battle.
I know, you're going to tell me "with that attitude, that's why nothing will get done about it". You are right to an extent, but I don't have the time or energy to fight for it. I would rather beat them at their own game and focus my attention on my business. It's hard enough to have enough time to devote to that in a day. The cream always rises to the top anyways.
I did bodywork/painting for 13 years, and everybody and their brother did "side jobs" at home. This surely cut into that industry also. Thus affecting me, but if you think I, or someone else could stop this, yeah right. It's just too out of control. With all the new laws that surfaced about equipment changes and procedures of painting cars, product specifications, how shops take precauitions to practice new laws and steps correctly, do you know who enforces them? The DNR. Wait, not new people employed at the DNR, but the same guys that check your fricken' fishing and hunting license. They implemented new laws and regulations but never took on more personnel to monitor these situations. What a joke.
And if you think that every guy doing plumbing or electrical work is licensed, you're fooling yourself.
That's the society that we have created in America. What's the fastest, easiest way to make a buck. People are ignorant to the fact of what really makes this world turn. The same people that don't obey tax laws, registrations, licensing, are the same POS that will ***** about our economy and how the country is run. They just don't get it. They just don't get it!
All I try to do is be the best I can, do things right, and hope it all pays off in the end.
I don't know if this is the right attitude or not, but it's the one I have, and as it has been said before, everyone has their own opinion. Good luck with whatever you do.:)

[Twotoros]

In Wa. state landscapers are required to have a contractors license. The # must be published with any advertising and be on the biz cards. The state will go after the unlicensed unlike in lawn maintenance where the state could care less. If I was to put in a retaining wall on a bust street I could expect to be turned in by a licensed contractor. As it should be. I wish the maint. biz was so regulated.

[gusbuster]

Gary and others, to a degree, Lawn care is regulated in the state of California. Our contractor law says quite simply, if you do any work with a value of $500, you need a state contractor liscense in your paticular trade. This goes for companies that only do ground maintenace. The problem is, most property managers are not aware of this. So price is the only concern.
John

[creative concepts]

I am not disagreeing with anyone here that it would be difficult to accomplish this feat but if no one does anything about it what is to prevent someone from saying that anyone with a lawnmower can be considered a landscaper? I agree it is hard to allocate a little time to this situation when we all put in a crap load of time to our business but if we don't do anything the situation is only going to get worse.

How can we complain about it (i.e. on another post somewhere I read about people complaining about the scrubs) all the time but yet when it comes time to do something about it, we turn our backs? Aren't the legislators representatives of us? Are they not supposed to listen to the masses when they complain? Well, if we start to voice our opinions (whatever they may be) to them and we do it as a group, they will have to listen. I do not belong to the assocations for nothing.

You are probable right in that nothing will come of this only because no one really wants to try. Most of us would rather sit back and ***** about it and never do anything.

I will try to create a poll to see if anyone is interested in pursuing this furhter

Chris
Creative Concepts Landscape Design & Management

[awm]

im personally never going to support regulation of any kind. im just tired of regulation.they do some good but mostly just complicate things for me. which turns into more cost for my customers. realise im probably in minority but thats what i think.

[PAPS]

I agree with you Creative Concepts....are you or any of your guys "CLT's" thats sort of what you are talking about. But i agree with you on the lic. thing, although we will never see it i dont think :rolleyes:

[creative concepts]

PAPS,

I am a CLT and a CLP, which i agree is along the lines of what I am talking about. The big issue is that even these tests and certifications are voluntary and not manditory. If these test were made mandiory I think it would be a step in the right direction to create an accepted industry standard.

Chris
Creative Concepts Landscape Design & Management

[gusbuster]

I'm with awn in the sense that we don't need anymore regulations as it is:


Why would new regulations work? They can't enforce the existing laws as they apply now.
The laws are on the books already. Why can't the laws be properly enforced and administered?

[LawnLad]

First, professionalism is important... and will set one company apart from another. Just because you're a landscaper doesn't mean that you're competing with ALL other landscapers. Each company has their niche and is good at something. Why does your customer buy from you?

To add more laws to the books is non-sense since enforcement is a joke. Who really enforces this? The customer does. If the customer wants a professional plumber because they recongize the value of having the job done properly, they'll pay for it. Or if they want Henry the fix it man - they'll pay Henry. If the customer wants security - they'll look for it.

Ultimately the customer decides who they want to hire. I suspect that those customers who hire the 'scrubs' wouldn't hire a legit firm, or be in the market, if they had to pay the higher dollar amounts. So to factor them in as a part of your potential client base may be misleading. Is Harry Homeowner cuts his own lawn, is he cheating you out of potential business? I wouldn't call that a potential market. He's doing it himself for one of several reasons (cost, enjoyment, ignorance, time away from his wife, etc.)

But regardless... price will almost always be a determining factor. Take commercial trades - who gets the job from the general? The lowest bid. Not the guy who will necessarily do it right... who is 10% over the next guy, but will save thousands down the road in rework and warranty repairs. The low bid gets the dollar on commercial work - almost always. Unless you've got a property manager, owner or agent that understands the value you can bring their company. But in a year, they'll be onwards and upwards anyways and now you've got the new kid to deal with who's trying to show his boss how he'll save the company money. You're IPM program just got knocked off the priority list.

With Residentials, it all comes down to relationships with your customers, sell them on your value. As well, you've got to be professional and sell the importance of being professional. This site is a good start.

Here's an idea if you want to be an advocate and an activist. Write articles for your local papers. Offer to teach pruning or planting seminars in your local communities. Offer to plant trees with the elementary school classes. Call the paper and let them know what's going on. They need a story to fill the paper... why not yours.

You'll be selling more than your company. You'll have a platform to talk about professionalism and how it benefits the customer. Talk about organizations like ALCA, PLCAA, PGMS, SIMA and other state organizations that promote professionalism.

Customer perception is what you have to influence. If we all do a little 'public service' type announcements in our communities and try to get our competitors to the same, we will be raising the bar for expectations together. You'll always have the lowballer/scrub type - but hopefully you'll be building a need for professionals in your area.

Create the need by selling the benefit to the customer!

[jjfehr]

posted by creative concepts-------------That is what I don't understand and probably never will. If you are an electrician it doesn't matter if you are wiring a whole house or putting in just one light switch, It is mandatory to have a license --------------
Not so, I hired a friend with no licence, to do the electric in my house, for half of what an electirician would have charged. I did this with several trades and they all passed inspection. I saved over $6,000. however, At the same time I agree with you!!!!!!!! morale of the story is, there are cheap azzes all over the place, like myself, and as long as we exist, there will always be a market for the SCRUB!!

[SLS]

I don't see the need for more regulation. All it would do is put more money into the local governments pocket, create more administrative headaches for those who will follow the mandate, and will do nothing to stop 'under the table' operations.

As most 'scrubs' do not have signage on their vehicles or a $10,000 ZTR stuffed in the trunk of their Toyota how is an enforcement officer supposed to know that the 'scrub' is just not some dude cutting his grandma's friends yard?

Most of the 'under the table' guys around here tote their little riding mowers (or pushers) around in the back of their old pickup trucks and look to be in their 60's. When they are out working they look just like gramps out mowing his own lawn. You just can't pull over every retired guy who's just "taking his mower to the shop to get it fixed"....can you? ;)

[creative concepts]

There have been many good points brought up on this post that taught me a few things. I guess in my own ignorance, I did not think of all the aspects of creating a licensing program. I guess in the end it all comes down to what the client knows and it is up to us to educate them (which I have been doing anyway). The closest thing to a regulation is the CLT and CLP testing which seems to be a step in the right direction for those who want to elevate the accepted standards of the industry.

Thank you to everyone who replied and opened my eyes.

Chris
Creative Concepts Landscape Design & Management

[BRL]

Hey Creative (& other Joyseans),
Your thread reminds me. Last year a law was passed here that was going to require that landscape construction contractors now have to get a license similar to a builder's license. Anybody know the details & when it goes into effect? Thanks.

[BRL]

Back to the top o' the heap!

Anybody?

[PAPS]

BRL..

Really on that new law?? I never heard anything on that.... let me know if you hear anything...

[creative concepts]

BRL

Do you know if that is just for your town or for the whole state? If you find out more about, let us know. Thanks

[BRL]

Oh you guys stink LOL. This is a state law, but I kinda lost track of it last year. We discussed it a little in a thread last year and I'll try to search that out. I believe (but I would only say my memory of this one is 50% accurate) there was a law like this passed, but that it doesn't go into effect until sometime in 2002 or 2003. I'll see what I can dig up, no pun intended. Maybe somebody in NJLCA would know?

[creative concepts]

I am going to the trade show in secaucus on wednesday so I will ask the NJLCA when I am there. If they know anything I will post it here.

[Greenie]

Plumbers and electricians are responsible for upholding standards that directly affect health and safety. I am a licensed oil burner (master) technician, but that doesn't stop unlicensed people from attempting repairs. The license I pay $250 every other year for does little in providing a protected customer base, it merely allows me to perform the work.
Guys that undercut your prices come and go. A license doesn't solve those problems, nor does it assure the customer that a person is dependable or honest, or a good worker. Licenses only add yet another level of bureaucracy.
Home owners (customers), have the responsibility to make sure that the person they contract with has insurance and meets the standard that the customer sets.
Personally, I want the government out of my life more than it is already.

[Tim Canavan]

I agree with Randy Scott and the Lawn Lad. Don't put too much into this. Focus on buisness and don't worry about the scrubs. They are what they are. Scrubs. If you're good, and only time will tell, then everything will fall into place. You'll be too busy to even think about any liscencing. If it's the law up there, then get whatever liscence you have to get to operate. Worry about your own. The other guys won't be around long anyway.


Tim Canavan
Major League Landscaping

[SLSNursery]

I would like to agree with what lawnlad said about being and advocate or activist. I don't consider myself an activist, but will take the side of an advocate. We spend plenty of time hosting or teaching classes for local adult education departments, I have worked with local AG extension services to host pesticide licensing classes at our facility. We work with schools when opportunity exists, and we try to maintain some standards in our industry. We undertake these missions as part of our overall plan and mission, not simply to further a personal agenda.

Here in Connecticut there are plenty of laws already, and all (most) of my endeavors are properly licensed or permitted. I think it is important to be forward thinking about your own business and what you aspire to be. I am a CLT and have worked feverishly in CT to get that program up and running. It isn't the answer to everything being discussed here, but once you are working within a group of educated customers who want a quality product, I feel that the demand for licenses and compliance will exist. You might as well have whatever certifications exist before the government forces a master plan. In Connecticut we expect to see some legislation in the next few years dealing with testing requirements for Home Improvement Contractors, as opposed to the current practice of any company can pay $160.00 to get the license.

To address the enforcement issue, sure it is a problem with lightly staffed government agencies who normally collect fines which get dumped into the general fund. In Connecticut, our trade groups have worked with the legislature to support mandatory fines for unlicensed (pesticide) applicators. Now, a $1000 fine goes directly back to the DEP (Department of Environmental Protection). They have been provided with the incentive. This has worked tremendously well for the tree care industry who had the $1000 fine in place a couple of years ago. Here is a systemic problem with our law - it is legal for anyone to purchase unrestricted chemicals, but illegal to apply them. The laws don't always make sense, but something good will come of this new enforcement incentive for those applicators who try to skirt the system.

We have found that by compliance with current laws and a strategy to keep us on the leading edge of the industry we are quite busy. The lack of barriers to entry to our industry make it easy for non-qualified folks to join in, but I view that as opportunity. Opportunity to educate consumers, and to educate the new entries into the ways of the world. Given some advice and information, they often weed themselves out of the pack. And, in doing so, leave plenty of work for the rest of us.