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View Full Version : Skid vs. Dozer?


stuvecorp
11-23-2008, 01:03 PM
This week I have been running a Lull for a mason on a commercial cold storage project and was watching the excavator spread base course with a D5 dozer, they had 4-5 quads hauling but thought I could have easily kept up with the 70XT. Has anyone ever read or witnessed a skid vs dozer comparison? Something that would compare purchase price, maintenance and production between the two? It was something I was wondering as I was shivering away the day.

Dirt Digger2
11-23-2008, 01:20 PM
they are two different machines...in my opinion it would be silly to even compare the two. Sure there are applications where that D5 isn't needed, i probably could have had the same productivity with our little CASE 550G, but try and push heavy all day or do an efficient and good final grade and theres no doubt dozer is the way to go

Gravel Rat
11-23-2008, 01:38 PM
I agree your trying to compare a machine that is designed to push and one that is designed to scoop and carry. If you don't have a dozer which 95% of the contractors where I'am then a skid steer or backhoe is used.

Scag48
11-23-2008, 01:38 PM
Even a D3 will bury a skid steer spreading material. I can knock down and rough grade a 10 yard load with a D3 in about 2 minutes. I've yet to come close to that with a skid steer, even a large skid with a big bucket. It's hard to fairly compare the two, the dozer was designed to push and a skid was not, even a CTL/MTL doesn't come close.

Dirtman2007
11-23-2008, 01:43 PM
they are two different machines...in my opinion it would be silly to even compare the two. Sure there are applications where that D5 isn't needed, i probably could have had the same productivity with our little CASE 550G, but try and push heavy all day or do an efficient and good final grade and theres no doubt dozer is the way to go

Your right,

We finally made the decision to buy a dozer this summer. Before we did everything with out takeuchi 150 skid steer. This machine did things that a dozer should have been doing but that's what we had and that's why we used it. After using the dozer now I mush rather work at a slower place and do a good job than to run the skid steer wide open to keep up with the trucks and kill myself in the process. Plus hte dozer sure does ride smoother, the radio also help pass the time by better. lol

Scag48
11-23-2008, 01:50 PM
Those new D39's are pretty sweet. I got stuck on an older D37 this summer from time to time, I wasn't complaining though, dozer experience is dozer experience. As soon as I started running the 6R with a 6 way blade, I didn't want that 37 back.

stuvecorp
11-23-2008, 02:04 PM
It was a small D5, don't remember the letter but was fairly new. He would knock the pile down and then sit, the trucks were taking about 30-45 minutes per cycle. I realize they are two diffenent machines but we aren't talking huge jobs, they hauled in maybe 250-300 yards of base on the day.

Gravel Rat
11-23-2008, 02:10 PM
Maybe the company doesn't own a skid steer ?

That same job here a backhoe would be used or a excavator would spread it.

To own a small dozer you would have to have alot of work to justify it.

bobcat_ron
11-23-2008, 02:14 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXzLxvCkOI4
Here's what a D4 will do with a 10 foot blade, try doing that with a skid steer/CTL.

ksss
11-23-2008, 02:57 PM
Even a D3 will bury a skid steer spreading material. I can knock down and rough grade a 10 yard load with a D3 in about 2 minutes. I've yet to come close to that with a skid steer, even a large skid with a big bucket. It's hard to fairly compare the two, the dozer was designed to push and a skid was not, even a CTL/MTL doesn't come close.


Actually I do that frequently with the 465. I can lay out 10-12 yard loads in just a couple minutes. I agree that a small dozer is better suited for serious push jobs, but what allows for that productivity is weight and traction. The hp ratings are not much different. The 3000 plus ROC machines which weigh around 9-10K have that kind of weight for a lot applications. Again I am not saying these machines can replace a small dozer for all applications, just that they do well in some of them.

Dirtman2007
11-23-2008, 03:47 PM
My little takeuchi can knock down and grade 14 yards of dirt in 2:35 too...

Go takeuchi GO!!

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=dWhOhFlOLnY

Scag48
11-23-2008, 03:54 PM
My little takeuchi can knock down and grade 14 yards of dirt in 2:35 too...

Go takeuchi GO!!

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=dWhOhFlOLnY

Those things practically are dozers. More horses than a D5 and 7-8K pounds lighter.

bobcat_ron
11-23-2008, 05:26 PM
Those things practically are dozers. More horses than a D5 and 7-8K pounds lighter.

True, but put a 10 foot wide blade on it and watch it sit and stall.

Scag48
11-23-2008, 05:29 PM
True, but put a 10 foot wide blade on it and watch it sit and stall.

No doubt, but the Tak 150's are impressive for what they are. Best track loader hands down.

bobcat_ron
11-23-2008, 05:31 PM
No doubt, but the Tak 150's are impressive for what they are. Best track loader hands down.

Woot! Woot! Woot!

Scag48
11-23-2008, 05:33 PM
Woot! Woot! Woot!

You been roaming the streets of Vancouver today? Seems like maybe you've picked up a contact high. Second hand smoke is no joke. hahaha

bobcat_ron
11-23-2008, 08:18 PM
You been roaming the streets of Vancouver today? Seems like maybe you've picked up a contact high. Second hand smoke is no joke. hahaha

Close, I've been inhaling contact glue fumes from my model railroad that I am working on all week.

The pink spotted green bunny says it's going real well.

Junior M
11-23-2008, 08:20 PM
Close, I've been inhaling contact glue fumes from my model railroad that I am working on all week.

The pink spotted green bunny says it's going real well.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Scag48
11-23-2008, 09:20 PM
Close, I've been inhaling contact glue fumes from my model railroad that I am working on all week.

The pink spotted green bunny says it's going real well.

You're a modeler too? Right on. I'm hanging out in my apartment until Thanksgiving, nothing to do for my dad this week so I came "home" to the Seattle area to kill some time. I'm working on my N scale layout this week, track to lay, switches to install, all sorts of good stuff. Don't think I'll need to glue anything, though. :laugh:

stuvecorp
11-23-2008, 10:15 PM
I was looking for something more scientific. I am not saying the skid is better than the dozer. What I am wondering is to factor all parts like: scale of jobs, initial investment, maintenance costs, mobility, hourly demand for machine and productivity. If you don't do dozing every single day obviously it wouldn't pencil out to have a dozer. The excavator at this project does much bigger work so it pays to have a dozer, they had a newer JD 350D.

I personally have zero time on dozers although I have run a 855 stripping black dirt and loading trucks but that is it. My scale of jobs is more like pole buildings and garage slabs not big commercial stuff.

ksss
11-23-2008, 10:25 PM
The only time I have ever spent on a dozer was at Tomahawk, Wi. I loved those dozers, I just don't need one right now.

I think for me a Blade Runner would be the ticket. The few times I could use a dozer are times when I have an excavator on site anyway. They sure hold their value. I tried to pick a couple up at auction and they both had around 1K on the clock and sold for over 100K.

stuvecorp
11-23-2008, 10:35 PM
The only time I have ever spent on a dozer was at Tomahawk, Wi. I loved those dozers, I just don't need one right now.

I think for me a Blade Runner would be the ticket. The few times I could use a dozer are times when I have an excavator on site anyway. They sure hold their value. I tried to pick a couple up at auction and they both had around 1K on the clock and sold for over 100K.

The Blade Runner doesn't seem to have been a big hit but sure is cool. I played on one at a trade show in the Twin Cities, I think it was an 150 size?

Scag48
11-23-2008, 10:42 PM
Blade runners are sweet, I'd totally buy one. They don't come cheap, though, everyone is really proud of them when it's time to sell.

Junior M
11-24-2008, 08:58 AM
Blade runners are sweet, I'd totally buy one. They don't come cheap, though, everyone is really proud of them when it's time to sell.
There's a clearing and grading crew here that runs a kobelco 150 sized blade runner, they only run that kobelco and a front loader with a rake, they brought in a case 550 dozer to grade it off a couple days later but the dozer didnt have much work the guy on the blade runner got it pretty darn close..

bobcat_ron
11-24-2008, 10:19 AM
You're a modeler too? Right on. I'm hanging out in my apartment until Thanksgiving, nothing to do for my dad this week so I came "home" to the Seattle area to kill some time. I'm working on my N scale layout this week, track to lay, switches to install, all sorts of good stuff. Don't think I'll need to glue anything, though. :laugh:

Here's the hobby as it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1aP5tWSqmI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-la1DmnCvS8

Scag48
11-24-2008, 12:24 PM
Here's the hobby as it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1aP5tWSqmI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-la1DmnCvS8

Looking good Ronnie. I did HO back home when I was a kid. Now that I have a tiny apartment, I switched to N. I have a 30"X50" layout that I may extended a switching yard down one of my walls for a little more space. Not the biggest layout, but it's going to be detail packed. I'm doing BNSF right around the time of the merger based around the Seattle area, haven't 100% decided yet. Still laying track, have my plan drawn out on computer. I guess I have a little roadbed to lay yet, I forgot I wasn't finished with all of it. Once I get that down, it'll be track laying madness, everyone loves laying flextrack.

Nelson M Martin
11-25-2008, 06:23 PM
Those things practically are dozers. More horses than a D5 and 7-8K pounds lighter.

this is one of my first time leveling stone dust.
Blast tho:clapping:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylFCjUE

Nelson M Martin
11-25-2008, 06:32 PM
Those things practically are dozers. More horses than a D5 and 7-8K pounds lighter.

this is one of my first time leveling stone dust.
Blast tho:clapping:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylFCjUEA3HU

bobcat_ron
11-25-2008, 06:36 PM
Those Tak's look like so much fun. I really want to try one out at the next equipment show.

stuvecorp
11-25-2008, 06:39 PM
Those Tak's look like so much fun. I really want to try one out at the next equipment show.

My dad has 1000's of hours on a D6D LGP and he says if he closes his eyes(when running the Mustang/Tak) it feels like he is back on the D6. He must be using the force...

Nelson M Martin
11-25-2008, 06:49 PM
i had so much fun when renting the CTL80 Gehl last summer(2007) that i couldnt resist buying a track loader for myself:waving::laugh:

Had a Bobcat T300 for 11 months and put 1125 Hrs. on the machine
Now have a T320 and have about 300 Hrs on it again

Junior M
11-25-2008, 06:58 PM
Not to go off subject, but nelson what do you do with your skid or is it just an expensive toy, like many people on here have..

Scag48
11-25-2008, 07:10 PM
Not to go off subject, but nelson what do you do with your skid or is it just an expensive toy, like many people on here have..

I think he works his machine. 1125 hours in 11 months, that's more hours than you've accumulated in your entire life Jr.. :drinkup:

CAT powered
11-25-2008, 07:12 PM
That comes to about 3 and a half hours a day. That's plenty of use on a little bugger of a machine like that.

Junior M
11-25-2008, 07:12 PM
I think he works his machine. 1125 hours in 11 months, that's more hours than you've accumulated in your entire life Jr.. :drinkup:
Yeah, more than I could ever imagine as of right now, hope to have that many one day though. i never even thought about hours, I am just curious, so I would like to know atleast what he does..

Scag48
11-25-2008, 07:22 PM
1,100 hours, 11 months, 100 hours a month, 25 hours a week, 5 hours a day. That's not bad for a track loader.

Dirtman2007
11-25-2008, 07:26 PM
i had so much fun when renting the CTL80 Gehl last summer(2007) that i couldnt resist buying a track loader for myself:waving::laugh:

Had a Bobcat T300 for 11 months and put 1125 Hrs. on the machine
Now have a T320 and have about 300 Hrs on it again


That's a lot of bouncing around to do 1125 hrs in less than a year. How's the ol' back.

Nelson M Martin
11-25-2008, 07:43 PM
Most of that work is local excavating such as back filling around barns/shops and the odd logging job here and there. Also a few concrete demo job(try to stay away from that tho).
I find a CTL to be a great machine when doing backfilling inside the foundation/walls etc. A quick compact machine for those tight to get in corners etc.
But yes i agree as mentioned on this thread that when it comes down to hardcore excavating the dozer will be boss

stuvecorp
12-02-2008, 11:41 PM
One of my arguments with the skid or even CTL having lower maintenance costs compared to dozers really went out the window today as I read the nice flyer from my friendly Cat dealer. Ouch but what is the 'out the door' cost with other brands to be kinda fair?

ksss
12-02-2008, 11:43 PM
One of my arguments with the skid or even CTL having lower maintenance costs compared to dozers really went out the window today as I read the nice flyer from my friendly Cat dealer. Ouch but what is the 'out the door' cost with other brands to be kinda fair?


Wow, that would leave a mark!

stuvecorp
12-02-2008, 11:50 PM
At least they offer the potential to finance it for a year(for qualified customers). Yet there is guys running their machine for peanuts per hour.

What is a dozer undercarriage going for?

bobcat_ron
12-03-2008, 09:57 AM
Over $14,000 to "rebuild" my undercarriage on my 247?? BULLSH*T!

There's a lot of unnecessary work being done on it, no way will the drive motors need to be rebuilt at the same time, even Takeuchi's drive motors go over 3000+ hours, and who says the entire roller frame needs rebuilding?

I think a lot of that cost is shop rates, Finning already charges in excess of $100 per hour, if I do my own work (easy enough) I bet I'll save 50%.

t190
12-03-2008, 05:37 PM
not to mention finning on the island goes to harbour equipment to get there skids fixed because there shop rates are lower...crooks

dozerman21
12-03-2008, 07:59 PM
At least they offer the potential to finance it for a year(for qualified customers). Yet there is guys running their machine for peanuts per hour.

What is a dozer undercarriage going for?

The last time I replaced mine, it was around $8K. That was for sprockets, idlers, grouser pads, rails, and all the rollers. The track adjusters are around $350 each, so basically around $9K for everything. That is with me installing them myself and buying them from an aftermarket company, not the dealer. Usually you can get twice the life out of pads and idlers. The track adjusters are hit and miss. These are finish dozer prices with 16" pads. I have a friend who owned a Deere 450H about 4 years ago, and his dealer quoted him around $13K for everything installed, if I recall.

I agree that half of the cost of those MTL tracks is for labor. Those prices are insane.

Gravel Rat
12-03-2008, 08:11 PM
When you buy Cat equipment don't they supply personal lubricant for the customer when it comes to repairing Cat equipment :laugh:

Cat always has been a rip off and probably always will be :hammerhead:

stuvecorp
12-04-2008, 12:06 AM
It is kinda lame to replace stuff just to do but maybe the motive is to make money sense they may not be selling new machines, that is one theory anyway. One thought that I want to stress is, you pay dearly for the machine and the resale is in the basement, then the repair/maintenance costs are high yet the machine is charging the going skid rate. I have yet to come across someone that is charging more to recover the hourly costs. Are guys cutting there own throat running these machines?

AWJ Services
12-04-2008, 09:33 AM
It is kinda lame to replace stuff just to do but maybe the motive is to make money sense they may not be selling new machines, that is one theory anyway. One thought that I want to stress is, you pay dearly for the machine and the resale is in the basement, then the repair/maintenance costs are high yet the machine is charging the going skid rate. I have yet to come across someone that is charging more to recover the hourly costs. Are guys cutting there own throat running these machines?

I do not own a cat but I do own a CTL.My operating expenses are no where near what a Cats are but I have the same problem in that my hourly rate is the same as every other skid steer.
My solution is to not charge an hourly rate.LOL
I do most everything by the day, half day or by the job.
I do stuff usually 30 to 40% faster than a wheeled skid steer so I find I never run the machine a full day yet receive a full days pay quite often.
In my case I am getting added value for owning a CTL but the machine sits rather than run for fuel cost so I do not have excessive hours on my machine just to say I am working.

Given the large amount of Cat MTL machines for sale it would lead me to think they did not work out for many people.

Yes I agree most guys are cutting there own throat.

Gravel Rat
12-04-2008, 03:40 PM
I don't even know how you can make a profit with just a skid steer period. The rental shops rent them so cheap anybody can rent one and think they are saving money. A wheeled skid really can't go anywhere where the ground is really rough or steep. The tracked skid steers can go places a wheeled skid can't. Even wheel skid steers are maintenance pigs. Get into a area with sharp rocks you can slash a tire wide open.

ksss
12-04-2008, 04:31 PM
I do not own a cat but I do own a CTL.My operating expenses are no where near what a Cats are but I have the same problem in that my hourly rate is the same as every other skid steer.
My solution is to not charge an hourly rate.LOL
I do most everything by the day, half day or by the job.
I do stuff usually 30 to 40% faster than a wheeled skid steer so I find I never run the machine a full day yet receive a full days pay quite often.
In my case I am getting added value for owning a CTL but the machine sits rather than run for fuel cost so I do not have excessive hours on my machine just to say I am working.

Given the large amount of Cat MTL machines for sale it would lead me to think they did not work out for many people.

Yes I agree most guys are cutting there own throat.

That is a good way of billing out, if you can get it. Contractors at least here are not going to pay you a full day rate for a partial days work. They just are not. Homeowners are different. If you can bid a job and bid it at a full days rate and get it done sooner than you bid of course that works. I use that strategy a lot. The more productive the operator and the equipment the more profitable you are. Working hourly however, that productivity works against you it would appear, although the repeat business and postive word of month comes back around.

Tracked machines are different. If the environment calls for a tracked machine and or again your dealing with contractors they can appreciate the added value of a tracked machine. However if the job or conditions are not tailored to a tracked machine, a savy customer may not be willing to pay you the premium that your tracked machine should bring. Tracked machines in the right conditions are more productive and other times they are not and just cost more to run.

I have said it before that I am sure that there are a lot of MTL/CTL owners who after owning their first tracked machine were floored at the added cost to maintain and the low resale. I suspect that the MTL's were hit particulairly hard by this. Again it is no accident that CAT released a CTL, I predicted they would several years ago. The uninformed owners of these tracked machines that ran at the same rate as wheeled machines got their lunch ate. There was a guy here locally with a 257 that was working cheaper than anyone doing yard installs. He lasted two years. He had no idea what his costs were going to be. Word is out now and I think there are fewer surprised MTL owners. That would account for the reduction in MTL's being sold and creation of the CTL by CAT. That is not to say the MTL does not have a place because it obviously does. It is a niche market machine and if CAT was fair they would have marketed it that way, much like ASV seems to do. Instead they (salesman and CAT marketing) wrote checks on durability that the machines more often than not could not cash. ASV doesn't sell as many but they seem to be used more in their element than are the CAT machines. I am not sure if that is better salesman or marketing or just a preception.

With a tracked machine I would try to bid as much as possible, and take advantage of the increase in productivity without being strapped to making only hourly wages. However you need a hourly rate for some customers and jobs. Especially when working for large construction companies. If you have the ability to have both a wheeled and tracked machine you really have the best of both worlds. That is the direction I am trying to go. It will take a little longer to get there now with the slow down but that is my goal. That may not be practical for some operations but considering the costs involved with a tracked machine, if you only used where you needed it, the money saved would likly buy you a wheeled machine or a least heavily offset the cost.

ksss
12-04-2008, 04:37 PM
I don't even know how you can make a profit with just a skid steer period. The rental shops rent them so cheap anybody can rent one and think they are saving money. A wheeled skid really can't go anywhere where the ground is really rough or steep. The tracked skid steers can go places a wheeled skid can't. Even wheel skid steers are maintenance pigs. Get into a area with sharp rocks you can slash a tire wide open.


You have to sell a service not a machine. If a job needs to be done you get it done. I don't sell myself as a skid steer service which is what my name would imply. We are an excavation, hardscape, demolition contractor. We just happen to use skid steers to get a lot of it done when its practical. The rental market is not a big issue for me. It sometimes can be, but mostly on homeowner landscape projects. If they opt to rent I didn't want the job anyone is usually what the outcome ends up being.

If you own a skid steer and nothing else with no niche application to rely on your going to starve.

Junior M
12-04-2008, 05:08 PM
You have to sell a service not a machine. If a job needs to be done you get it done. I don't sell myself as a skid steer service which is what my name would imply. We are an excavation, hardscape, demolition contractor. We just happen to use skid steers to get a lot of it done when its practical. The rental market is not a big issue for me. It sometimes can be, but mostly on homeowner landscape projects. If they opt to rent I didn't want the job anyone is usually what the outcome ends up being.

If you own a skid steer and nothing else with no niche application to rely on your going to starve.
Very well put, not every homeowner can go rent a skid and do what some of us do on here, some can but it turns into a huge mess, and in the end most call someone with some expierence to do it, and alot of the jobs we do pay less than what a rental costs, like KSSS said if you do a specialized service a homeowner cant go rent a skid and do it, they dont know how, unless its doing landscaping like you mentioned GR, and then alot of us work for general contractors who have no clue about dirt work...