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Pistol
11-29-2008, 04:20 PM
Should I be putting out any fertilizer now (Dec. 1)? I have cool season grass and live in Winston Salen NC - Piedmont Triad area. I have been using Scotts Organic Fert starting this past spring, and last applied fert. 2 - 2 1/2 months ago. Thanks, Pistol

growingdeeprootsorganicly
11-29-2008, 04:28 PM
pistol,

many variables........whats in that product? is your grass healthy?

JDUtah
11-29-2008, 06:00 PM
what's the soil temp? If the type of organic fert you use relies on microbe degredation... your microbes may be dormant and not make the fert avaiable until spring...

Pistol
11-29-2008, 06:36 PM
Gentlemen,
Here is the label info. Our soil temp is ?. nightime temps are avging around 30F, daytime around 45F-50F. Thanks for any help. Pistol

Scotts® Organic Choice™ Lawn Food F643
Guaranteed Analysis 11-2-2
Total Nitrogen (N) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11%
0.11% Ammoniacal Nitrogen
10.00% Water Insoluble Nitrogen*
0.89% Water Soluble Nitrogen
Available Phosphate (P2O5) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2%
Soluble Potash (K2O) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2%
Calcium (Ca) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.5%
Sulfur (S) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.0%
1.00% Combined Sulfur (S)
Derived from: Hydrolyzed Feather Meal, Meat Meal, Bone
Meal, Blood Meal, and Sulfate of Potash.
* Contains 10% slowly available water insoluble nitrogen
(N) from hydrolyzed feather meal and meat meal

stimpy
11-29-2008, 06:45 PM
soil temps in the low 50,s and i am 70 miles south of pistol

growingdeeprootsorganicly
11-29-2008, 06:46 PM
does it need it? do it now as it will be cold soon

ICT Bill
11-29-2008, 10:30 PM
I always wondered what a plant thinks when it eats meat
don't find a lot of meat in the soil
what microbes does that select for I wonder
carnivorous turf maybe

meat meal HMMM???

I am running into more and more vegan farmers, not the farmers themselves but how they fertilize their crop, no blood meal, bone, etc and for sure no meat meal

Pistol wait til spring when the soil warms up, feb or march

JDUtah
11-29-2008, 10:38 PM
My favorite form of meat are the single celled kind. But not really.

Pistol
11-30-2008, 08:46 AM
Bill,
I'm doing my lawn and a neighbors. Are your products cost effective in small quantities (ie: shipping costs), and can I get them locally (I don't think so)? I'd love a true organic solution, but limited by costs and avaiability at Home Depot. Thanks, pistol

stimpy
11-30-2008, 10:24 AM
Bill whats wrong with meat. The best bagged fert i have used is naturesafe. Its meat bone blood fish feather. Compared to nutrients plus seablend sustane and milorganite.........Pistol lesco might have roots or sustane.

Smallaxe
11-30-2008, 11:09 AM
Dehydrate and pulverize everything in a chicken house, slaughter house, and sewage system and put it back into the soil from whence it came. :) No problem.

Prolawnservice
11-30-2008, 11:24 AM
IMO the problem is not the meat bone or blood, Its the way WE treat it while its still all togather that makes it less appealing as a soil amendment.
Things that contain all of the above have been dieing and decomposed in or on the soil for billions of years. Nothing new, but the man made chemicals, antibiotic and treatment/confinement/diet the animals receive prior to being separated into those items is cause for concern.

ICT Bill
11-30-2008, 12:47 PM
Bill whats wrong with meat. The best bagged fert i have used is naturesafe. Its meat bone blood fish feather. Compared to nutrients plus seablend sustane and milorganite.........Pistol lesco might have roots or sustane.

Stimpy, I know lots of folks that use naturesafe. I was just thinking out loud. ever since I saw meat meal on the label of a fert I have been asking myself that question. Its not good or bad, just me thinking about it.

The question I ask myself is, how often do you see meat in/on the soil? certainly a dead animal will break down by all kinds of actions, but does the meat actually go down into the soil. What kind of microbes are we selecting for with the application.
If you apply humate for instance, which is a great fungal food, the populations of fungi go up over time. Molasses, bacteria mostly

apply meat meal and ..................? probably high in cellulose so it would be a fungal food, I think but don't know, thats why I keep asking the question

growingdeeprootsorganicly
11-30-2008, 01:01 PM
the reason bill said to wait is it's getting cold and organic products need microbial activity to break them down. there are how ever cold thriving organisms doing their thing in the cool months like fungi's and some bacteria'a

if you apply light you should have no problems at 5 -10 lbs per...your in nc? when does the soil freeze?

bill likes meat.....he has it in his wonderful organic solution product as fish?
meats have amino acids and protines= N

DUSTYCEDAR
11-30-2008, 01:11 PM
i like meat
would biosoilds that came from meat eaters be in the same area?
one has to wonder

growingdeeprootsorganicly
11-30-2008, 04:34 PM
read many a place that human sh@t is one of the best fertilizers for plants but the problem is all the artificial contaminants in our modern day diet?:cry:

Prolawnservice
11-30-2008, 04:43 PM
And the crazy compounds that are formed after heat treating the humanure mixed with sludge/pharmaceuticals, they pasteurize the poo but who knows what kind of chemistry experiment they are creating.

TMGL&L
11-30-2008, 06:26 PM
It wouldn't hurt to fert now with an organic product or a slow release would it? I'm not sure what the weather is like in pistols area, but in theory, wouldn't the pellets from the fertilizer just break down slower in cold conditions than in warm?

The microbes are less active and the grass (assuming a cool season grass) is dormant, however, the plant and soil still requires O2, H2O, CO2, and food of some kind...right?

growingdeeprootsorganicly
11-30-2008, 06:42 PM
The microbes are less active and the grass (assuming a cool season grass) is dormant, however, the plant and soil still requires O2, H2O, CO2, and food of some kind...right?

yes........some say some fungi become active during this time? good time to lime if you have too? stay under 20lbs per to reduce salts

i'll say too you will always have bacteria working"decomposing" as long as ground is not frozen.

im in nj and i have lawn's still green

treegal1
11-30-2008, 07:04 PM
all I know is the opossum post grew some out of this world maters!!! AND THE WORMS LOVE THE SHRIMP SHELLS

phasthound
11-30-2008, 07:26 PM
yes........some say some fungi become active during this time? good time to lime if you have too? stay under 20lbs per to reduce salts

i'll say too you will always have bacteria working"decomposing" as long as ground is not frozen.

im in nj and i have lawn's still green

I remember seeing photos taken by Alex Shigo about a dozen years ago showing active fungi in soils with ice crystals.

My advice is it is OK to apply organic or organic based ferts at this time of year as long as the soil surface isn't frozen. If it is frozen, too much nutrient runoff will occur.
However, if you're in a freeze-thaw cycle you should be fine as most of the material will work its way into the soil.

I'm still applying fert & AACT this week in NJ. Might be too late after that as we have some cold coming in soon.

Smallaxe
11-30-2008, 07:30 PM
It wouldn't hurt to fert now with an organic product or a slow release would it? I'm not sure what the weather is like in pistols area, but in theory, wouldn't the pellets from the fertilizer just break down slower in cold conditions than in warm?

The microbes are less active and the grass (assuming a cool season grass) is dormant, however, the plant and soil still requires O2, H2O, CO2, and food of some kind...right?

That has long been a question in my mind as well.
Does the organic ferts/time-released synthetics go into a sort of suspended animation as the ground freezes , then resume as temperatures warm?
Or,
Do they continue to break down below the frost level? In the case of synthetic slow release do they continue to release with the freezing and thawing with the snow?

There is always the interesting phenomena of the ground being frozen solid several inches deep for a month, then we get a big snow and all the frost comes out of the soil. :confused:

Smallaxe
11-30-2008, 07:40 PM
So Barry,
Do you think the nutrients are just being cycled and stored in the soil waiting for the plants to use them next spring?

phasthound
11-30-2008, 07:44 PM
So Barry,
Do you think the nutrients are just being cycled and stored in the soil waiting for the plants to use them next spring?

No, I think there is root uptake during the winter unless the root zone is frozen.

Smallaxe
12-05-2008, 07:56 PM
Perhaps my blindspot what -"Photosynthesis"... Is it possible that the roots are gathering raw materials - ready to ship off to the photosyn. factory as soon as - the air temps allow Photosyn to resume in the spring?

http://web.extension.uiuc.edu/macoupin/extnews/i4255_459.html

***The fertilizers granules break down slowly over the late fall, winter and spring based on soil temperature, moisture and microbial activity. During this time, the roots, which are growing as long as the ground isn't frozen, are absorbing and storing the nutrients until the air temperature is ideal for the bluegrass, ryegrass or fescue to use it for shoot growth and green color.***

I was thinking "Actual Food" without photosynthesis, which is silly. But the storage of raw materials is a real possibility.

Is there any bonifide research to reveal the truth one way or another?

phasthound
12-05-2008, 08:54 PM
Perhaps my blindspot what -"Photosynthesis"... Is it possible that the roots are gathering raw materials - ready to ship off to the photosyn. factory as soon as - the air temps allow Photosyn to resume in the spring?

http://web.extension.uiuc.edu/macoupin/extnews/i4255_459.html

***The fertilizers granules break down slowly over the late fall, winter and spring based on soil temperature, moisture and microbial activity. During this time, the roots, which are growing as long as the ground isn't frozen, are absorbing and storing the nutrients until the air temperature is ideal for the bluegrass, ryegrass or fescue to use it for shoot growth and green color.***

I was thinking "Actual Food" without photosynthesis, which is silly. But the storage of raw materials is a real possibility.

Is there any bonifide research to reveal the truth one way or another?

I'm not sure about turf research (Kiril, help out!), but for trees, Alex Shigo http://books.google.com/books?as_auth=Alex+L+Shigo&source=an&sa=X&oi=book_group&resnum=4&ct=title&cad=author-navigational and Kevin Smith http://www.fs.fed.us/ne/durham/4505/people/kevcv.html are my sources.

Kiril
12-05-2008, 09:35 PM
I'm not sure about turf research (Kiril, help out!), but for trees, Alex Shigo http://books.google.com/books?as_auth=Alex+L+Shigo&source=an&sa=X&oi=book_group&resnum=4&ct=title&cad=author-navigational and Kevin Smith http://www.fs.fed.us/ne/durham/4505/people/kevcv.html are my sources.

I'm gonna let you spin in the wind. :laugh: ;)

You are right. Generally speaking there will be root growth until soil temps approach freezing, however based on what I have seen reported for cool season grasses, the optimum temp for root growth is 50-65 F.

Here is an interesting little blurb on temps. I'll have to dig through my archive if you want more.

http://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/PDFFiles/000766/Using%20Soil%20Temperature%20Reports%20for%20Turf%20Management.pdf

treegal1
12-05-2008, 10:19 PM
ME i just contemplate a suicide at 50 deg F. LOLOL

Kiril
12-05-2008, 11:30 PM
ME i just contemplate a suicide at 50 deg F. LOLOL

You didn't just say that :eek:

treegal1
12-05-2008, 11:53 PM
You didn't just say that :eek:

if it gets that cold, god just take me fast.:angel:

Kiril
12-06-2008, 12:00 AM
if it gets that cold, god just take me fast.:angel:

Nah, I just wanted to say ..... YOU DIDN'T JUST SAY THAT :laugh:

phasthound
12-06-2008, 09:10 AM
Here is an article that shows levels of microbial activity in soil temps from 0 centigrade to 60 centigrade.

http://www.lpes.org/Lessons/Lesson30/30_2_Mineralization_Soil.pdf