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View Full Version : Question about ICT and other ct used in the landscape


TMGL&L
11-30-2008, 06:40 PM
I understand that compost tea is relatively harmless compared to the products people commonly use in their lawns however I wondering about the its effects on the ph of the soil.

So if I have a bacterially dominant ct, such as ICT for example, and I use it on a shrub, or on the root ball of a new tree, or any other plant that prefers fungally dominated soil or soil that is more acidic...Will this have any adverse effects to the soil (for the plant that is...).

I guess teaming with something is better than teaming with nothing, however, I don't want to innoculate with a team of microbes shooting for the wrong side of the litmus paper if I can.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
11-30-2008, 06:51 PM
most all real compost tea's will be close to neutral -/+

just for clarification real CT and bottled products should never be compared.
they are not even closely related except that biology is involved with both


bill's product pH....guess he will have to answer that?

treegal1
11-30-2008, 07:02 PM
real tea is the way, get a 5 gallon bucket and 3 or 4 pet shop air pumps with stones and let it go !!! total cost 50$????why not use the real??

phasthound
11-30-2008, 07:31 PM
Brewed compost tea can be brewed to have higher or lower fungal counts and great diversity of microbes. ICT Tree has known specific fungi beneficial for trees & shrubs.

TMGL&L
11-30-2008, 08:51 PM
Well I was always told to avoid making my own tea because of the risk of culturing anarobes (which would be hard to do with an air stone or two) and/or creating the next big e-coli infestation.

I do feel more comfortable buying ICT's product anyway. I have had success with it, its very cheap, it requires little preperation, and in order to care for large scale properties I would probably need more than a bucket to match the potency of the ICT I bought.

...And I'm not worried about the actual ph of the tea liquid itself. I'm more worried about the natural tendancy of bacteria to create a more basic environment and fungus's tendancy to make the area more acidic. (maybe its the other way around...or completly wrong:rolleyes: ). In other words, I don't want to apply a tea that is gonna change my soil ph the wrong way over the course of a month from growing populations of the wrong microbes.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
11-30-2008, 09:54 PM
[QUOTE=TMGL&L;2624682 I would probably need more than a bucket to match the potency of the ICT I bought.[/QUOTE]



....:laugh:

treegal1
12-01-2008, 08:02 AM
Well I was always told to avoid making my own tea because of the risk of culturing anarobes (which would be hard to do with an air stone or two) and/or creating the next big e-coli infestation.

I do feel more comfortable buying ICT's product anyway. I have had success with it, its very cheap, it requires little preperation, and in order to care for large scale properties I would probably need more than a bucket to match the potency of the ICT I bought.ROFL that is real funny. I do 150 plus acres with my tea brewers. and the Escherichia coli ( its compost tea not turd tea ) but thats ok, just stick to the label, it works for a lot of folks that cant figure out how to DIY.

get BILL to send your 5$

treegal1
12-01-2008, 08:31 AM
also ask bill about chasing the pH (see I did it correctly bill, JK) he will get you headed in the correct direction. as far as me and pH its a mater of in the field pH has no use or need , just forget it!!!! in research or brewing, diagnosis, then pH is useful. or in a chem world pH all the time so your plants dont die. so to quote Bill" dont chase pH "

let me give one example got this yard, real nice won awards and perks and the works news paper garden mag the whole 9, the pH is all over 8- 5.7 palms in acid grass in lime, azaleas next to natives, mango's in the lawn, cactus in a rain forest. started off with tea and compost added some bone char, and sulfur( not to adjust pH) little wood ash and more tea day and night. went test nuts( 4700.$) and still got some wild results. one test was done in a square food 25 test cores and the high pH was 7.9 and the low was 6.2 in one foot of dirt!!! mixed some samples up and got 3 different pH of of one pound of dirt 7.0-7.8.

hope I got all my pH 's correct so some yahoo does not rip me up like Bill got ripped. LOLOL and just over 2 letters OLOL its so funny.spell check for pH sponsored by ICT. JK.

ICT Bill
12-01-2008, 08:55 AM
Tree is correct don't chase PH, the microorganisms that inhabit the rhizosphere determine the PH for the most part, exception - disturbance

We do have a product that was made to select for fungal dominant soils 1-2-3 Tree, we use more fungal foods and the bacteria to fungi ratio is around 1:4. It is a good mix of endo and ecto mycorrhizae and other fungi, I posted the label on another post, I can post it again if you like

I was always told that endo myco dont colonize trees but a discussion with Dr Mike Amaranthus cured me of that thinking, there are certain trees that don't colonize with endo maybe someone has a list they would like to post, but most trees, shrubs and perennials do

treegal1
12-01-2008, 09:11 AM
I was always told that endo myco dont colonize trees but a discussion with Dr Mike Amaranthus cured me of that thinking, there are certain trees that don't colonize with endo maybe someone has a list they would like to post, but most trees, shrubs and perennials do
I just put it out there and let the tree/micro herd decide. most tropical spec love myco

phasthound
12-01-2008, 10:48 AM
Well I was always told to avoid making my own tea because of the risk of culturing anarobes (which would be hard to do with an air stone or two) and/or creating the next big e-coli infestation.

I do feel more comfortable buying ICT's product anyway. I have had success with it, its very cheap, it requires little preperation, and in order to care for large scale properties I would probably need more than a bucket to match the potency of the ICT I bought.

...And I'm not worried about the actual ph of the tea liquid itself. I'm more worried about the natural tendancy of bacteria to create a more basic environment and fungus's tendancy to make the area more acidic. (maybe its the other way around...or completly wrong:rolleyes: ). In other words, I don't want to apply a tea that is gonna change my soil ph the wrong way over the course of a month from growing populations of the wrong microbes.

TMGL&L

You should get together with Nattylawn. He and the company he works for are a great resource for knowledge and products. They are right in your back yard.

NattyLawn
12-01-2008, 11:01 AM
TMGL&L

You should get together with Nattylawn. He and the company he works for are a great resource for knowledge and products. They are right in your back yard.

Barry,

I tried in the spring when he was looking for CGM info. I'd be willing to brew a 5 gallon batch and look at stuff through the scope.

TMGL&L
12-01-2008, 12:33 PM
We'll see...I'm just reading and speculating right now. I'm not doing any applications at the moment. A lot of times I ask questions online that are hypothetical to better my understanding of topic matter from different and obscured view points...these sorts of conversations help me learn.

I'm a perfectionist with my business so I don't like to mess around on my clients properties doing much trial and error work. I'm not gonna brew anything until I understand it inside, outside, and all around.

Okay, well I won't chase ph around but I will continue exploring the subject.

:laugh::hammerhead:

Tim Wilson
12-01-2008, 02:05 PM
I'm not permitted to post my website here because it is a mix of educational and commercial but if you google my name along with a pertinent term you will likely find it and it may have some information of use to you.

Tim

phasthound
12-01-2008, 02:31 PM
[QUOTE=TMGL&L;2625371]
I'm a perfectionist with my business so I don't like to mess around on my clients properties doing much trial and error work. I'm not gonna brew anything until I understand it inside, outside, and all around.
QUOTE]

That's great and as it should be. Both NattyLawn and Tim can be of great help to you.

treegal1
12-01-2008, 02:46 PM
some time we visit this site for a good view of how thing looks.

http://www.microbeorganics.com/

or nofa..................

treegal1
12-01-2008, 02:47 PM
I'm not permitted to post my website here because it is a mix of educational and commercial but if you google my name along with a pertinent term you will likely find it and it may have some information of use to you.

Timwe should all get together and pass the hat so Tim can post..............

ICT Bill
12-01-2008, 02:57 PM
we should all get together and pass the hat so Tim can post..............

Tim cannot post his website info unless he's a sponsor but anyone else can. You cannot promote yourself unless you are a sponsor

HEE HEE I just noticed you did

TMGL&L, I'm glad you liked our product, it is very convienent

while you are hang'n around waiting for spring ( I swear next time I see Jeff I am going to ask for a commission) find "teamimg with microbes" by Jeff Lowenfels it explains very well the nuts and bolts of the soil food web

also puruse www.organiclandcare.net and download "standards for organic land care" also sign up for one of their courses and become accredited.

The USDA has a soils section to their website, it is full of great information on the soil food web and how it works

www.soilfoodweb.com has books and taped lectures on composting and making compost teas, they also have classes occasionally

Tim Wilson
12-01-2008, 03:22 PM
we should all get together and pass the hat so Tim can post..............

Treegal, I appreciate the sentiment but it is an ongoing monthly expense and I don't need advertising anyway. Besides, it always gets posted anyway.

Tim

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-01-2008, 06:25 PM
5 gallons of well made CT can cover a acre.....cost under a dollar in compost/food for a five gallon brew......materials to make the 5g brewer should cost under 100. and thats buying good air pumps and stones.

or you could buy a ready made brewer like tim's.........:canadaflag:
using the the big proto diffuser and small air stone

Kiril
12-01-2008, 09:42 PM
In other words, I don't want to apply a tea that is gonna change my soil ph the wrong way over the course of a month from growing populations of the wrong microbes.

Don't sweat it man, there is far more to soil pH than just microbes.

TMGL&L
12-02-2008, 01:25 PM
Thanks to all for your input. I will experiment with compost tea in the near future.

And I have read Jeff Lowenfels book. It really helped me understand things better. Unfortunately, I'm up to my ears in education and work as of now and won't be able to jump on any new certifications anytime soon. I definetly will look into those websites though.

muddstopper
12-13-2008, 08:58 PM
I was always told that endo myco dont colonize trees but a discussion with Dr Mike Amaranthus cured me of that thinking, there are certain trees that don't colonize with endo maybe someone has a list they would like to post, but most trees, shrubs and perennials do

Endomycorrhizae plants are;

Agricultrial crops.

Ornamental and horticultural fruit crops.

Vines grasses, legumes, desert plants, berries, etc.

Trees are, maple, elm, gum, ash, sycamore, walnut, dogwood, locust, magnolia, rebud, ginkgo, palmetto, myrtle, and others.

There are 150 known species of VAM fungi in the world. They occur naturally in all soils, but their abundance is affected by soil properties and plant density. They occur in over 1000 genera of plants in over 200 families. 85% of 300,000 species of green plants in the world. They are not host plant specific. One from corn can form Vam with nearly all other plants that normally form VAM.

Ectomycorrhizae Occurs naturaly on over 2000 species of trees including:
Pine, oak, beech, birch, spruce, fir, willow, cedar, basswood, hemlock, hickory, chestnut, pecan, eucalyptus and others.

There are over 2100 species of Ecto fungi in North America and over 5000 species worldwide. More than 25 species of fungi may be involved in the ectomycorrhyzal association of a single mature tree. A single species of fungi can form ectomycorrhyzae on numerous tree species on the same site at the same time.

Coniferous forest of northern latitudes may have more than 1000 species of ectomycorrhizal fungi where only a few ectomycorrhizal plant species dominate, but there are fewer than 25 species of Vam fungi in tropical deciduous forest in Mexico with 1000 plant species. Allen et,a., 1995

Tim Wilson
12-14-2008, 11:09 AM
They are not host plant specific.

I believe that there is research to be done for this to become a universally applied definitive.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-14-2008, 04:56 PM
[/QUOTE]

i believe is half true?, while MOST species of VAM can colonize different genus host plants?
question becomes what species of VAM do best under different environments and hosts? and since most host plants form multiple associations with different VAM at the same time. what species are more able to benefit the plant and not discourage or do discourage others forming colonizations and ultimately sporulation from others?

i have read certain VAM can negatively affect growth of some plants.?

muddstopper
12-17-2008, 06:12 PM
Tim and Growingroots, you both are probably correct. Most of the info I posted was obtained from a source that is about 13years old. Oddly enough, what is commonly thought to be 100% true is often found not so over time and with additional research.

At any rate, hopefully my partial listing of trees and their mycorrhiza association will prove usefull.

ICT Bill
12-18-2008, 09:51 AM
i have read certain VAM can negatively affect growth of some plants.?

You have to define negative growth. AM (they dropped the "V" a couple of years ago) fungus colonization can produce SAR (systemic aquired resistance) which will stunt the growth of plants as most of the activity of the plant is focused on getting the immune system charged up as quickly as possible. In the short term the plant looks to be behind in growth, in the long term the plant typically grows larger and when a fruit/vegetable typically produces more fruit or veggies.

SAR is a process of most any plant (including turf) that the growth function is supplanted to produce enzymes within the plant to protect itself. The plant "thinks" it is under attack from a fungal/bacteria disease and moves all of its resources to fend off the invader. One of the results is a thickened cell wall which allows the plant to not only have a better base for growth but makes it very hard for sucking insects to enter the exterior of the leaf, they cannot penetrate into the cells because of the stronger defence the plant has put up. Pests go to weaker plants and leave strong ones alone

Off topic but interesting to me

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-18-2008, 01:53 PM
AM (they dropped the "V" a couple of years ago)


yes bill, some of the family of arbuscular mycorrhizae do not form
vesicles. better go tell "INVAM" to change their name.

JDUtah
12-18-2008, 02:48 PM
deeproots,
What is your blood pressure level?

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-18-2008, 02:54 PM
deeproots,
What is your blood pressure level?

right now about 420:)

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-18-2008, 03:33 PM
right now about 420:)

over 69:waving:

JDUtah
12-18-2008, 04:07 PM
good times :dancing:

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-19-2008, 12:04 AM
good times :dancing:

for some of us:rolleyes:

JDUtah
12-19-2008, 12:10 AM
oh, ummm... i paid no attention to what numbers those were specifically... scrap my last post. lol

Tim Wilson
12-19-2008, 02:13 AM
yes bill, some of the family of arbuscular mycorrhizae do not form
vesicles. better go tell "INVAM" to change their name.

Bill is right on this one. It is like calling archaea, bacteria and yes they should change their name.

I'll send you a paper written by the mother of mycorrhizal,
Barbara Mosse as in Glomus mosseae which explains it.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-19-2008, 09:53 AM
tim,

i under stand why they just use AM now and not VAM since not all have abuscular myco form Vesicles. and just saying AM covers all myco forming abusculars.including the fungi that form vesicles too

the name VAM specifically name the myco that form both vesicles and abusculars

saying just AM does simplify things and does cover both types, but doesn't saying VAM
cover both aswell? "vesicular" "abuscular" mycorrhizae? either or can be used? VA or A myco?

tim when you find time please send me the paper you referenced

Kiril
12-19-2008, 11:48 AM
saying just AM does simplify things and does cover both types, but doesn't saying VAM
cover both aswell? "vesicular" "abuscular" mycorrhizae? either or can be used? VA or A myco?

I believe the proper way to use the acronym would be (V)AM or V-AM in order to cover both.

Some resources for peeps who like to read, not really related to naming conventions.

An interesting document on collecting Fungi.

http://www.spc.int/PPS/SAFRINET/fung-scr.pdf


A little something for Tim:

https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/11234/1/McLenon-Porter_Teresita_M_200806_PhD_thesis.pdf

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-19-2008, 01:40 PM
tim,
thanks for the great read,if some of those research facts are true it helped confirm alot of my evolving belief's about these fungi, imagine 10-20 years from now what will be thought known,

i thought this was interesting part about the name change,

quot:

this change is now widely accepted, but in some of these associations the fungi may not even produce proper arbuscules (Smith & Smith 1997) More over, one must agree that some host of arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi do not house the fungi in the true roots at, and therefore that the name "mycorrhiza" is not correctly used in those cases
(Lohman 1927;Kelley 1932). if we continue with the line of reasoning that dropped the "vesicular" from the "vesicular-arbuscular mycorrhiza",we must also drop the
"arbuscular" and,if we wish to be more inclusive of associations involving these fungi,
we would then be left only with "myco" and that is useless




Kiril,
thanks for showing my short Cummings in my last post:)

Tim Wilson
12-19-2008, 02:48 PM
It's a new and evolving science (the whole microbial loop) and we should be cautious about attaching our cars to any particular engine too permanently. The stuff (research) going on in Europe makes the efforts we look at (commercially) here in North America, seem like grade school; people like Vigdis Torsvik, the originator of the direct microscopy count (I know others have claim to fame in this area), Wilhelm Foissner who has discovered and catalogued multiple protozoa species and many other scientists.

Kiril; thanks for thinking of me