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tamo
12-09-2008, 10:56 PM
Should I expect sod I laid for 2 customers 2 and 4 weeks ago to take root this winter? Temps have been in the 50's during the day and 30's-40's at night. I had the customers water morning and evening for 5 minutes each time.

I know with cold temperatures the sod won't take root in 2 weeks like in warm months, but will it take root at all over winter and is it a problem if it doesn't?

Last year I laid sod in late January right after the ground was completely frozen and the sod only took the usual 2 weeks to root.

Also, what type of watering schedule should I have these lawns on assuming it doesn't rain?

thanks

Smallaxe
12-10-2008, 08:43 AM
The frozen ground (last year) did thaw out during the 2 week rooting period - right?

I wouldn"t be watering in the evening, because it promote fungal diseases. At sundown you want the roots to be moist and the blades to be dry.
Have everything soaked b4 sunrise.

After 4 weeks you should be rooted. Check the soil underneath the areas that still pull up and see if: it is still too dry, too wet, to compacted, too sandy, etc. Then adjust your watering from there.

turfcobob
12-10-2008, 10:21 AM
It will all depend on the weather and temps. Not warm no growth, warm growth. Simple as that.

tamo
12-10-2008, 06:28 PM
that's what I figured. Is it a problem if the sod doesn't root until it warms up in spring?

What type of watering do you recommend if it will be staying cold?

Smallaxe
12-10-2008, 08:15 PM
If it remains cold. Everything is dormant. water = ice. Then what are you talking about?

Does sod really root in Oregon in Janurary?!?!?

Your question need to be held with in the boundries of biology as well as Botany.

If you have a possibility of sod 'rooting' in January then why are you aiming for spring and WHAT does winter irrigation have to do with that?

Marcos
12-11-2008, 09:23 AM
You should be able to accomplish even a fair amount of rooting at lower temps with the help of endomycorrhizal fungi.
("Endos" are for turf & monocot-type tropicals, "Ectos" are typically used in dicots [like most nursery plants] but many of them are sold in endo-ecto packages)

This beneficial fungi establishes itself as an "interface" between the root system and the soil, and it needs an organic protein feeding program to sustain itself over the long term....in either turf or landscape.

Bear in mind: Heavy levels of salts that tend to accumulate from ureas and potassium (etc) destroy these spores in the soil structure!

I use MycoGrow Hydro "Hydroponic" formulation when I do any type of seed prep work or sod laying job.
All I do is take my Solo diaphram sprayer, and dissolve the amount I need, in water that's been distilled, obtained from a local natural water source, or the rain downspout barrel next to my pole barn.
(Chlorine and/or fluoride in most tap water degrades these spores before they can even get established.)

Fungi Perfecti also sells "MycoGrow for Lawns", but I think this is geared more toward the homeowner, especially as far as value is concerned.
I've found that I can make my cost/acre work MUCH better with the sprayable hydoponic formulation, with a little practice & calibration, of course!

More info, if you're interested:
http://www.fungi.com/mycogrow/index.html

JDUtah
12-12-2008, 01:08 AM
Bear in mind: Heavy levels of salts that tend to accumulate from ureas and potassium (etc) destroy these spores in the soil structure!

A credible study about salt acumulation please? One that utilizes normal fert practices? Normal being 4-6 lbs N per 1,000 per year.

More info, if you're interested:
http://www.fungi.com/mycogrow/index.html

Thanks for the link, but that website is selling a product, even the referance links it has at the bottom of that article do not provide credible sources to support the claims made.

The first link, which is supposed to show supporting information says...

"Soils in natural settings are full of beneficial soil organisms including mycorrhizal fungi. Research indicates, however, many common practices can degrade the mycorrhiza-forming potential of soil. Tillage, fertilization, removal of topsoil, erosion, site preparation, road and home construction, fumigation, invasion of non native plants, and leaving soils bare are some of the activities that can reduce or eliminate these beneficial soil fungi."

But it gives ZERO sources for ANY of the studies/claims it makes?

The article continues about pot grown plants...

"Unfortunately, the high levels of water and nutrients and the lack of mycorrhizae discourage the plant to produce the extensive root system it will need for successful transplantation. The result are plants poorly adapted to the eventual outplanted condition that must be weaned from intensive care systems and begin to fend for themselves... Research studies document the need of plants to generate a mycorrhizal roots system in order to become established. Maintaining intensive inputs is necessary until the extensive root system is achieved ."

And again, no supporting documentation?

Please provide peer reviewed literature that demonstrates...
1- Regular professional fertilizer practices cause harmful soil salt acumulation?
2- Mycorrhizal fungi is more sensitive to salt levels than plants?
3- Tillage reduces the concentration of this fungi?
4- Fertilization reduces the concentration of this fungi?
6- High levels of water and nutrients reduce the concentration of this fungi?
6- The success rate of transplanting nursery grown (potted) plants is lower than that of wild grown plants?

Thank you in advance for ANY credible support you can provide here!

phasthound
12-12-2008, 06:06 PM
I spent 5 minutes on google:

The application of farmyard manure stimulated vesicular-arbuscular mycorrhizae while fertilizers at the recommended level decreased the mycorrhizal propagules.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/r16012144r275305/

Osmocote was most detrimental to mycorrhizal intensity and diversity; nonsupplemented controls had highest mycorrhizal diversity. Modest reductions in fertility can be used to increase root weight and diversity of mycorrhizal fungi
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/saf/wjaf/1989/00000004/00000004/art00006;jsessionid=pvi0qrr0hiw4.alexandra

The lowest colonization and spore number was recorded with T1 (full dose of fertilizers).
http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bita/29/1/29_87/_article

Experiments showed that generally organic fertilizers were more compatible with mycorrhiza formation than inorganic fertilizers
http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=149274

RigglePLC
12-12-2008, 07:04 PM
Tamo,
about the sod you placed--how much snow was there at the time?

JDUtah
12-12-2008, 07:24 PM
Quotes per those sources...

AM colonization in soil was decreased or totally inhibited by CRI (inorganic) fertilizers with high P at the 2-4X rates, whereas colonization was decreased but never eliminated by low-P OR fertilizers at the 34X rates.

I said at normal application rates. not 2, 3, or 4 times the recommended rate.

Inoculation of miniature roses grown in sandy loam and fertilized with all the CRI or OR fertilizers resulted in high AM colonization, but without much AM-induced growth increase except where OR or CRI fertilizers with low P were used.

It says there was high AM colonization while using either organic or inorganic ferts.

But the highest spore number (132.0 per 100 g soil) was recorded with T2 (P50 K50 S20 Zn5 + Inoculum). At AEZ-11 (Ishurdi), maximum root colonization (82.5%) was recorded with T3 (CD + P25 K25 S10 Zn2.5 + Inoculum). However, the highest spore number (246.3 per 100 g soil) was recorded with T4.

How can T2 & T4 both have "the highest spore number"? Typo? Either way this demonstrates that "maximum root colonization (82.5%) was recorded with T3 (CD + P25 K25 S10 Zn2.5 + Inoculum)." which is cow dung, Innoculant, AND inorganic fert. It does not help the argument, it hurts it.

Root colonization and spore population were also found to have varied greatly from location to location. The highest root colonization was recorded at AEZ-11 (Ishurdi) for each treatment except T5 (Inoculum) compared to AEZ-28 (Joydebpur). The highest spore population was also recorded at AEZ-11 (Ishurdi) for all the treatments.

It appears that generally, factors related to the local environment are most related to root colonization.

Two controlled-release NPK formulations (Osmocote and Nutricote) and one micronutrient formulation (Micromax) were added as supplements to soluble fertilizer and evaluated for their effects on seedling growth and mycorrhizal development of 1-0 container-grown seedlings of Engelmann spruce (Picea engelmannii). Seedlings supplemented with Osmocote or Nutricote had lower root weight, but greater shoot length, stem caliper, and total weight than controls receiving only soluble fertilizer. Addition of Micromax did not alter growth compared to controls, but Micromax plus Osmocote decreased shoot length and shoot:root ratio compared to Osmocote alone. Micromax plus Nutricote increased shoot length compared to Nutricote alone. Five types of mycorrhizal fungi established naturally during the study. Osmocote was most detrimental to mycorrhizal intensity and diversity; nonsupplemented controls had highest mycorrhizal diversity. Modest reductions in fertility can be used to increase root weight and diversity of mycorrhizal fungi. West. J. Appl. For. 4(4):129-131, October 1989.

This study only establishes that reducing soil fertility "increases root weight and diversity of mycorrhizal fungi" It makes ZERO mention of salt buildup, nor does it address why the osmocote "was most detrimental to mycorrhizal intensity and diversity". The wording still admits that colonization took place.

The plots cropped to finger millet in the second season had the lowest number of mycorrhizal spores.

So plant species does appear to affect concentration of spores... but we are not suggesting to change the grass type. We are suggesting how to increase root length of the already selected plant species. AM fungi innoculation CAN help... but only if inorganic P levels are relatively low.

The application of farmyard manure stimulated vesicular-arbuscular mycorrhizae while fertilizers at the recommended level decreased the mycorrhizal propagules.

We have already seen a trend that lack of inorganic P is the main cause of increased AM colonization/spores. The above quote cannot be used to say that synthetic fert is the reason the propagules decreased. Perhaps the synthetically fertilized soils simply had more available nutrients than the ones fertilized organically.

The point is... the real way to increase AM colonization is to reduce soil fertility. (particularly inorganic P). These studies show that pretty clearly IMO... but none of them (from the parts I read) mention Salt buildup or anything of the like.

You want your roots to grow deeper/thicker? Reduce the fertilizer input... be it synthetic or organic.

-----

But again I allow myself to be distracted form the OP's question...

The health/growing activity of the sod, soil temp, amount of sun, etc are all factors that will affect the speed of root establishment. That is a hard question to answer.

JDUtah
12-12-2008, 07:35 PM
Not to mention, is there any article that shows AM Fungi increases root growth in cold environments?

Marcos
12-12-2008, 08:34 PM
Not to mention, is there any article that shows AM Fungi increases root growth in cold environments?

Oh, for Pete's sake!!

Why don't you just fork out a measly $6.00 to buy a 1 oz. trial pack of the 'Hydroponic' formulation, and do a side-by-side turf trail comparison yourself?!?
Nothing like seeing results for yourself, right?

All you need are the sprayable spores, a STERILIZED (preferably new) hand-tank or backpack sprayer, and two 250 sq. ft. bare ground plots of soil, in two side-by side areas that you can easily discern and locate next spring, summer and onward.

Do final grading.
Apply the soluble spores via the sprayer to a "given" 25 x 10 area.
Immediately lay sod.
Topdress just that area with 1/4"-1/3" of finished compost (so that the spores will have some type of initial food source).

Now, shield this entire area with a non-permeable tarp.


Immediately adjacent, in another 25 x 10 plot, do final grading.
Lay sod.
Fertilize (at the same rate you NORMALLY would).

Blow any fert off of tarp shield from 1st plot, and well away from composted sod area.

Take digital photos beginning day 1, in monthly intervals if possible.
Please report back here sometime late next spring.
I'll promise you here & now, the plot you applied the endomycorr spores to, before you sodded and composted, will look like a ch-ch-ch- CHIA pet, as compared to the fertilized plot!

This is almost precisely what I did 6 years ago (except I used seed) to prove to myself 1st hand, whether or not there was anything to beneficial fungi.
I was deeply impressed then, and now l use upwards of 15-16 pounds of endomycorr from Fungi Perfecti every year, for grow-ins and renovations.
(But now I get my specialized landscape endo-ecto package from different vendor, only due to volume price.)

JDUtah
12-13-2008, 12:01 AM
Oh, for Pete's sake!!

Why don't you just fork out a measly $6.00 to buy a 1 oz. trial pack of the 'Hydroponic' formulation, and do a side-by-side turf trail comparison yourself?!?
Nothing like seeing results for yourself, right?

All you need are the sprayable spores, a STERILIZED (preferably new) hand-tank or backpack sprayer, and two 250 sq. ft. bare ground plots of soil, in two side-by side areas that you can easily discern and locate next spring, summer and onward.

Do final grading.
Apply the soluble spores via the sprayer to a "given" 25 x 10 area.
Immediately lay sod.
Topdress just that area with 1/4"-1/3" of finished compost (so that the spores will have some type of initial food source).

Now, shield this entire area with a non-permeable tarp.


Immediately adjacent, in another 25 x 10 plot, do final grading.
Lay sod.
Fertilize (at the same rate you NORMALLY would).

Blow any fert off of tarp shield from 1st plot, and well away from composted sod area.

Take digital photos beginning day 1, in monthly intervals if possible.
Please report back here sometime late next spring.
I'll promise you here & now, the plot you applied the endomycorr spores to, before you sodded and composted, will look like a ch-ch-ch- CHIA pet, as compared to the fertilized plot!

This is almost precisely what I did 6 years ago (except I used seed) to prove to myself 1st hand, whether or not there was anything to beneficial fungi.
I was deeply impressed then, and now l use upwards of 15-16 pounds of endomycorr from Fungi Perfecti every year, for grow-ins and renovations.
(But now I get my specialized landscape endo-ecto package from different vendor, only due to volume price.)

Actually I have done my own tests with AM fungi applications... side by side controls... and there was zero improvement. But before I get involved in another salt fight, I have said my peace.

I am glad it worked for you, there is no silver bullet... even for cold soil root growth.

Smallaxe
12-13-2008, 08:32 AM
You want your roots to grow deeper/thicker? Reduce the fertilizer input... be it synthetic or organic.
...

You mean that if we continually place the 'perfect' blend of nutrient on the surface of the turf every 4-6 weeks that the grass roots will not grow deeper into the soil?!?!?! :laugh:

Anyways the grass continues to grow roots until the ground is frozen solid. Not sure what it does when the frost comes out of the ground under multiple feet of snow.

muddstopper
12-13-2008, 01:36 PM
If the ground is frozen, I dont think its going to make any difference what you apply to the soil. If the grass is dormant, it isnt going to grow roots and if the ground is to cold, the Mycor isnt going to establish. Period!.
What hapens when the ground warms up is going to be a completely different matter. The roots are where the plants store their nutrient reserves and sod roots are cut very short. While the application of mycor spores will help when the plant is actively growing, the mycor cant do much if the plant is dormant with unestabished roots, or the soil is so cold the mycor are also dormant.
What is the palnt going to use for nutrition while it waits for active root growth and mycor association. A slow release fertilizer might be more benefitual short term , especially if used along with the mycor innoculation. P is usually the nutrient most closely associated with mycor establishment problems. Most of the studies I have seen seem to suggest that this mycor supression after P applications is short lived and limited to about 4 weeks. If one looks at the studies by the TVA concerning P availability, which suggestes that p fertilizers can beome bound up in the soil in about 4 weeks in best growing conditions, one might guess that the mycor supression is related to P availability. The less available the P is in the soil, the less mycor supression. Scientific fact, I dont know, I'm just guessing and thinking out loud.

Marcos
12-13-2008, 04:07 PM
If the ground is frozen, I dont think its going to make any difference what you apply to the soil. If the grass is dormant, it isnt going to grow roots and if the ground is to cold, the Mycor isnt going to establish. Period!.
What hapens when the ground warms up is going to be a completely different matter. The roots are where the plants store their nutrient reserves and sod roots are cut very short. While the application of mycor spores will help when the plant is actively growing, the mycor cant do much if the plant is dormant with unestabished roots, or the soil is so cold the mycor are also dormant.
What is the palnt going to use for nutrition while it waits for active root growth and mycor association. A slow release fertilizer might be more benefitual short term , especially if used along with the mycor innoculation. P is usually the nutrient most closely associated with mycor establishment problems. Most of the studies I have seen seem to suggest that this mycor supression after P applications is short lived and limited to about 4 weeks. If one looks at the studies by the TVA concerning P availability, which suggestes that p fertilizers can beome bound up in the soil in about 4 weeks in best growing conditions, one might guess that the mycor supression is related to P availability. The less available the P is in the soil, the less mycor supression. Scientific fact, I dont know, I'm just guessing and thinking out loud.


What you're saying is certainly true for regions of the country where turf grass consistently experiences true wintertime dormancy.

The fact of the matter is, there is a great swath across this country's lower midsection, and along it's warmer coastlines, that sort of "hover" in and out of wintertime dormancy, where the turf may indeed appear to be dormant, but depending upon climactical shifts, in fact may NOT be.

Depending upon what's going on during any specific winter's cold front / warm patterns off of the Pacific Ocean, much of Oregon's turf certainly could remain out of dormancy, assuming the roots themselves never get cold enough to freeze. Just because turf turns a little brown after a frost or two, doesn't mean it's necessarily dormant at that point.

NEW CITY LAWN CARE LLC
12-13-2008, 06:39 PM
Should I expect sod I laid for 2 customers 2 and 4 weeks ago to take root this winter? Temps have been in the 50's during the day and 30's-40's at night. I had the customers water morning and evening for 5 minutes each time.

I know with cold temperatures the sod won't take root in 2 weeks like in warm months, but will it take root at all over winter and is it a problem if it doesn't?

Last year I laid sod in late January right after the ground was completely frozen and the sod only took the usual 2 weeks to root.

Also, what type of watering schedule should I have these lawns on assuming it doesn't rain?

thanks

In my opinion, your watering schedule was insufficient, with the cooler temps even 4 weeks ago, watering shallow=shallow rooting, you may not need to water anymore until spring, but next time I would probably water once a day and soak the ground completely, and this all depends on what type of irrigation you have (Spray or Rotors) to get 1" of water per week, of course the first week or two you want to keep the sod soaked, but after that I would probably be watering 2-3 times per week max, early morning, enough water to fill up an empty tuna can at the end of week, all of this of course is based on the temperatures, if the high is only 50, than you probably don't need to water as much or at all now.

Your sod should be fine until spring, when whatever rooting is left to take place does so then. Did you use JB instant lawn? Hopefully you used a good starter fertilizer before laying down the sod? I typically spread super sweet lime as well.