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View Full Version : a wacky thought


Mark B
12-11-2008, 12:18 AM
Aight as I sit here watching TV having a few #9s. Have anyone of you pros ever wanted to light up the inside of your home? I'm thinking about uplighting the corners, fireplace, etc...

I'm assuming that the fixtures that we use outdoors cannot be used inside. I know you can use the LV track lighting. But i"m thinking about other types of fixtures.

Chris J
12-11-2008, 12:25 AM
It's your home. Do with it what you will. As long as you feel safe, then you don't have a problem. If you wanna talk code, then that's another story.
By the way, what's a #9?

Swampy
12-11-2008, 03:14 AM
Recessed can lighting seems to be the big thing right now. It seems to free up a ton of floor space but to me it just doesn't seem right. Maybe I'm just so use to laps. But it's your drywall that your tearing up

Mark B
12-11-2008, 07:15 AM
Go to your local bar and look for a magic hat #9. You might find it in the grocery store.

Mike M
12-11-2008, 09:10 AM
I don't know about up-lighting, but I thought about lv tracks. IT SOUNDS LIKE THE EASIEST WAY TO GO. I HATE when my pinky bumps the caps lock and right now I'm just gonna leave it and make you think I was emphasizing/yelling (I do this all the time on my lap top).

Here's an idea I thought for a builders' show that might be cool inside: Get a large potted plant and stick an MR 8 or LED in there, or down-light it.

Here's my question I'll throw out there, do we use the same stuff, or do we buy "indoor" transformers, etc.? I'd love to pick up a book on the topic. James is the indoor lv expert, maybe he will shed some light.

I don't know what a #9 is, but I thought for certain Chris J. would've known. Bit disappointed. I'll bet Billy knows, and maybe Dave.

Kiril
12-11-2008, 09:29 AM
I'm going to be putting in some LED cove lighting into my house.

Mike M
12-11-2008, 10:13 AM
Please explain cove lighting, thanks.

Kiril
12-11-2008, 10:20 AM
Please explain cove lighting, thanks.

http://images.google.com/images?q=cove%20lighting

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-11-2008, 01:51 PM
1: Interior uplighting is the one of the hottest trends going. In new construction we do it with in-floor fixtures. like recessed "pot lights" but designed for the in floor application. Essentially "walk over" fixtures. See Martini Lighting or Delta Light for some of the best

If you are retrofitting it is even easier. Go to HD or Lowes or wherever and in the lighting section will find small floor cylinders that take either PAR20 or GU10 Lamps. About $15 each + Lamp. Place them in corners, behind plants, furnishings, etc etc. Very dramatic and great for added depth and drama.

Kiril... watch what you buy for LED cove lighting product. There is a LOT of junk on the market. Colour Rendition can be brutal in those product lines and you really have to watch your approvals for the SE Asia built product. Stay away from any "rope type" LED linear lighting. I would recommend that you stay away from sealed LED linear product as it is not serviceable. Instead I would use BriteStrip by Magic Lite and opt for their LED Festoon lamps in warm white.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-11-2008, 01:54 PM
Mike. There are a whole host of specialty transformers for interior use. From the most simple (Marcus) to very nice multi-tap, torroidal core, etc etc from Q-Tran. Some of the nicest track systems use remote transformers because it keeps the size of the track heads to a minimum. But, you have to have an appropriate place to mount the transformer fairly close to the track system for it to be effective. In retrofit applications, it is usually best to go with integral ballasted track heads.

Regards.

Mark B
12-11-2008, 04:23 PM
Cool. James that is what I was thinking. Floor mounted uplighting mounted in the floor "walk over" So where are you getting your fixtures, transformers? I'm sure you are NOT getting them at lowes, or HD. Thanks.

Kiril
12-11-2008, 11:39 PM
Kiril... watch what you buy for LED cove lighting product. There is a LOT of junk on the market. Colour Rendition can be brutal in those product lines and you really have to watch your approvals for the SE Asia built product. Stay away from any "rope type" LED linear lighting. I would recommend that you stay away from sealed LED linear product as it is not serviceable. Instead I would use BriteStrip by Magic Lite and opt for their LED Festoon lamps in warm white.

Agree on the hordes of junk ... why stay away from rope light? Those LED festoon type fixtures are seriously expensive, especially given I am planning on about 2000 feet of it. I found some dimmable line voltage rope light that was more or less reasonably priced a couple years back, however I haven't investigated the product much at this point. I'm doing just about the entire house in LED ... from cans, to cabinet, to cove, to foot. There will only be a few fluorescent (garage & bath fans).

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-12-2008, 12:51 AM
Cool. James that is what I was thinking. Floor mounted uplighting mounted in the floor "walk over" So where are you getting your fixtures, transformers? I'm sure you are NOT getting them at lowes, or HD. Thanks.

Where I get them is different then what I specify. :)

You will not find any "value lines" in this category. And I would not mess around with making something work from a parts bin as there are serious approval implications with in floor lighting.

http://www.viabizzuno.com/

http://www.martinilight.com/martiniweb/ricerca_prodotti/elenco_prodotti.asp?LANGUAGE=ENG

http://www.deltalight.com/start.htm

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-12-2008, 12:57 AM
Agree on the hordes of junk ... why stay away from rope light? Those LED festoon type fixtures are seriously expensive, especially given I am planning on about 2000 feet of it. I found some dimmable line voltage rope light that was more or less reasonably priced a couple years back, however I haven't investigated the product much at this point. I'm doing just about the entire house in LED ... from cans, to cabinet, to cove, to foot. There will only be a few fluorescent (garage & bath fans).

IMO: Ropelight is pretty much junk. It offers little output and efficiency, and is not servicable. The light it puts out is generally lacklustre. It is generally best suited for outlining structures rather then providing indirect general illumination. I have seen SE Asia rope product completely burned and melted... total fire hazzard.

The BriteStrip is the way to go. If not LED then xenon lamps. It really provides the nicest, dimmable, even, effective linear light I have seen.
Do it once, do it right.

Regards.

Mike M
12-12-2008, 09:06 AM
Thanks, James, good tails here for us to explore. Personally, I would rank this as a long term goal which I can explore by installing it around my own home, doing research, etc. I think that near-term, I will face the same market issues for design-build, indoors or out. Either way, we have a pre-existing client base and it wouldn't hurt to ask around if people are interested.

One great thing about indoor lv, if we expand indoors, we can utilize the same marketing vehicles and hitch a free ride; e.g., builder show displays, post cards, etc. In fact, the marketing of this along with our outdoor lighting advertising should strengthen our image as professional lighting designers. This is very different than the problem I have with trying to sell lawn care and lighting on the same ad (which I don't do).

Pro-Scapes
12-12-2008, 09:35 AM
No 9 would be JD wouldnt it ? Look at the bottle.

On the transformers we have used to lightec ones with no issues. These are electronic and small so make sure your controls are rated for electronic.

If you use a magnetic trans and you place it on a dimmer make sure it doesnt start to hum. If it hums badly when dimmed and is attached to truss work etc in the attic it may resonate thru the house.

Kiril
12-12-2008, 09:52 AM
IMO: Ropelight is pretty much junk. It offers little output and efficiency, and is not servicable. The light it puts out is generally lacklustre. It is generally best suited for outlining structures rather then providing indirect general illumination. I have seen SE Asia rope product completely burned and melted... total fire hazzard.

The BriteStrip is the way to go. If not LED then xenon lamps. It really provides the nicest, dimmable, even, effective linear light I have seen.
Do it once, do it right.

Regards.

I absolutely agree on the do it once, do it right, that is my work motto .... but I need an option that isn't going to set me back 16K for indirect lighting. Heck that is more than I am spending for wiring the entire house from the ground up. :cry: Good thing about the festoon type, I can order only the amount I need. I will be using festoon type for kitchen under cabinet where light quality is very important.

What I have planned out (electrically) is to have the option of running two independently controlled light strips per cove (one blue, one white). These will be controlled via a UPB network of switches which can be programmed to set variable light levels on each color depending on the situation/mood.

The can and foot light fixtures I'm looking at are running ~ 250 mrp/can which are made by the first manufacturer to release an LED made specifically for cans (far as I know).

Any particular reason you recommend BriteStrip?

Mike M
12-12-2008, 11:15 AM
I said good tails? I think that was "good tips" but I cannot edit it now.

I knew billy would know what a #9 is.

James must know the indoor lighting market well, in Canada they have 24 hours of darkness at this time of year.

NightLightingFX
12-12-2008, 12:46 PM
Thanks, James, good tails here for us to explore. Personally, I would rank this as a long term goal which I can explore by installing it around my own home, doing research, etc. I think that near-term, I will face the same market issues for design-build, indoors or out. Either way, we have a pre-existing client base and it wouldn't hurt to ask around if people are interested.

One great thing about indoor lv, if we expand indoors, we can utilize the same marketing vehicles and hitch a free ride; e.g., builder show displays, post cards, etc. In fact, the marketing of this along with our outdoor lighting advertising should strengthen our image as professional lighting designers. This is very different than the problem I have with trying to sell lawn care and lighting on the same ad (which I don't do).

I don't know about other areas throughout the country, but the biggest challenge for me in my state regarding indoor low voltage systems. Is that the installer needs to have an electrical liscense. I can design systems but I can't install indoor LV lighting systems. I am guessing this will be an issue throughout most states in the country. There still may be a market for designing indoor lighting. I have been looking for opportunities in my market.
~Ned

Mark B
12-12-2008, 06:25 PM
It is a majic hat #9 ..

niteliters
12-12-2008, 07:59 PM
ned, ditto here, need to have licsense. You could do the design and have an electrician install. I have done some of that. I will not continue doing it unless outdoor work slows down.

Mike M
12-13-2008, 06:37 AM
Chris,

Good point. It's a whole new way of doing business to have to work with an EC, but I thought about it as a possible venue. It may also lead to doing the lv outdoor lighting for those clients, and get us in good with builders and architects. And help with our professional image and "value" as designers.

It would also require more study/education in lighting indoors. I don't know, maybe it would be a bite I could chew if I just aimed at indoor lv only (not 120v stuff), with a niche for track-lighting and simpler installs at first.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-13-2008, 05:42 PM
When it comes to interior lighting systems you must work alongside a licensed electrician. This really isn't a big deal as you can usually find someone out there who is interested in doing the work, and co-operating with you in order to get the job done, adding another client to their list. It is a win-win-win situation when handled properly.

Focus on selling the client first, then sub out the electrical work to your EC colleague.

There is no reason to focus only on LV interior lighting. You are in there so you might as well handle all of it. LV, 120V, Controls, Dimmers, Fans, etc. By doing so you offer the client a turnkey service which they appreciate as they have fewer things to co-ordinate.

I have been saying it for some time now: Use your knowledge to your advantage!

Next area to delve into is Commercial (interior and outdoor) Lighting. There are more old, inefficient, and ineffective lighting systems out there then there is demand for new. Think about it.

NightLightingFX
12-13-2008, 06:07 PM
James,
Very GOOD POINT! about commercial work. After my commercal fountain project. I can see what James is talking about. But on the other hand these commercal projects are a REAL PAIN IN THE BUTT - You have inspections, and momentary change of plans every 5 minute. If you can break through and get a job (which I think there are a lot of challenges) I am not 100% sure they are worth it.
~Ned

niteliters
12-13-2008, 10:09 PM
James is right, you might as well handle it all. Your client will want you to do so. be sure you're able to.

Kiril
12-14-2008, 10:39 AM
@James

Chased down the site that has the LED rope light I was looking at.

http://www.affordablequalitylighting.com/docs/indoor/rope/led/led/index.html

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-14-2008, 03:53 PM
@James

Chased down the site that has the LED rope light I was looking at.

http://www.affordablequalitylighting.com/docs/indoor/rope/led/led/index.html


I looked at it.. I dont know what to say as they don't provide much technical specification.

Make sure that it is UL approved... I didnt see that anywhere. The buy a section of it and try it out. If you like it then go for it.

Regards.

Kiril
12-15-2008, 02:10 AM
I looked at it.. I dont know what to say as they don't provide much technical specification.

Ditto ... couldn't find much of anything on the LEDs or drivers. I did however find some info on LED's from another fixture, so assuming they deal with the same manufacturer ....?

http://www.nichia.com/

Make sure that it is UL approved... I didnt see that anywhere.

It is UL approved providing you don't cut it. Once you cut it, it loses the UL approval.

Anyhow, thought I'd see if you had heard of it, or possibly had some more info on the stuff. Thanks for looking.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-15-2008, 09:59 AM
Kiril: There are a handful of major manufacturers of LED chips that you want to stick with if you can. Nichia, Seoul, Cree, Lumileds/Luxeon, GE lumination, etc. Then there are a bazillion 'no name' manufacturers that are busy ripping off the technology of the big guns. I would want to ensure as much as possible that the products you purchase are using chips from the big 5.

As for cutting the product, isn't that part of the standard custom installation?

Regards.

Kiril
12-15-2008, 10:53 AM
As for cutting the product, isn't that part of the standard custom installation?


Yes, it would be. Since it is going into my house, not really concerned if it keeps the UL listing or not.

Have you heard of Permlight?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-15-2008, 02:55 PM
Heard or read the name... but never have seen or used the product.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-15-2008, 11:20 PM
Just found this:

http://www.gelighting.com/na/business_lighting/education_resources/literature_library/sell_sheets/downloads/led/LED_CoveBrochureWEB4_08.pdf

Looks like "da bomb" for cove light applications. I haven't priced it yet but I can guarantee you it will be several times more per foot then led rope light.

Regards.