Unique - AOLP

[JoeyD]

It is with great displeasure that I am announcing that Unique Lighting Systems will not be re joining the AOLP for 2009. As you all know Unique Lighting Systems put our best foot forward when joining the AOLP and had the best of intentions when doing so. We wanted nothing more than to be apart of the best association for lighting and to align ourselves with the best lighting people in the industry. We made great progress in the short time we were a part of the AOLP, we were able to squash a lot of mistruths about our company and were able to show a lot of people that Unique Lighting Systems was not the monster that other manufacturers had made us out to be.

When we joined we were told that the AOLP was really trying to shed its old image of being just a PRO UL1838 organization and wanted to try and get out of that whole shadow of being a manufacturer controlled / influenced association. The AOLP was trying to show with a change of name that this was an association open to any and all lighting professionals. With that we were told that we would be welcome to explain our systems truths and give better insight to the lighting world outside of UL1838 restrictions which we were able to do to a degree. Problem was the CLVLT (AOLP Certification) contradicted what they were telling us and still did not accept our way of lighting as a certifiable system. On top of that certain members were reluctant to accept the message we were trying to convey and that became apparent at this last years conference when we arrived only to see the section of the hotel that we had DONATED the lighting and install too the year previous be neglected, unfinished, and missing lights. The member in charge had said he would finish the install and would be overseeing the maintenance of the system. When we returned the following year the system was missing lights of which the reason we were given was because we were only supposed to donate so many lights? As to why the transformer never had conduit installed and wire wasn't buried was beyond us. To add injury to insult the fixtures that were removed were never given back. It didn’t help that this member shared with other members his dislike of Unique and his reluctance to accept us as a manufacturer member of the AOLP.

So fast forward to this last month; a letter written by Kichler who sits on the BOARD of the AOLP was sent out to all distributors and reps claiming that our new 24v Intelli-System is a fraud, dangerous, and inefficient in comparison to LED? Well whoever thought we brought along 24v to say that it was as efficient as LED is obviously out of their mind because only an uninformed person would make such a lame statement. We simply brought along 24v to be an alternative to the standard 12v Halogen lighting systems. 24v has tons of positives and the ONLY negative comments one can really make regarding 24v would be lamp availability, selection, and the learning of a new system and rules. BTW as of 12/11/08 GE has supplied us with our new 24v Par36!

It was this letter that made Unique finally decide that no longer will we be able to support an organization that allows a manufacturer who sits on their BOARD, represents their organization, attack a fellow manufacturer member. A fellow member that spends $2500 per year to support this Board and this Organization not to mention the additional expenses of sending 3-4 employees to conference, showcase in the expo, and host dinners all of which come at an additional expense and all of which we are more than pleased to do, especially when we know it is appreciated. Everyone knows Unique is not cheap!

Now when this letter was called into question by me online a certain board member defended the letter as being OK and not attacking? Of course this member is very loyal to Kichler so we could understand his stance and his view and we still respect him greatly but then it made us think, are the chips still stacked against us? Is it really in our best interest to support an organization that shows such disregard for us as members? Is it really a different organization then it was 4 years ago?

I will say that there are a lot of AOLP members that showed us a ton of support and appreciation. A lot of them share our views of how the organization is being influenced and directed. Mat Broyles has done a wonderful job in supporting us and encouraging us as members and we really appreciated his support. We made some great friendships, Lord knows I put my best foot forward personally and I am the one who is the most disappointed by this move. This year would have been my 4th year in a row attending conference and participating. I know the association will move on with out us just fine, despite what they might say Kichler will hi-five and be pleased as this is surely what they were hoping for. We will move forward with no ill feelings towards the members whatsoever, this was not their doing.

[worx]

Joey I absolutely HATE that you and Unique are parting company with AOLP! You have been a tremendous help with my company's up-start. I always find myself returning to Unique after shopping around. There are times that I use other products but not with the frequency that I use Unique's. I would hope the AOLP would not succumb to lobbyist activities. It would be great to have the support of all manu's on the AOLP for the betterment of the organization. I know each of the lighting pro's have there favored manu's but I hope that won't interfere with the professionalism of the organization. Well I know where to find you on LS and I have a PH # and email so I'll keep in touch. The best to you and Unique!

[Frontier-Lawn]

We Joey i will as of right now no longer sell, carry, install, or even service Kichler, i will pull out their product on calls and replace it with your product.

[JoeyD]

Joey I absolutely HATE that you and Unique are parting company with AOLP! You have been a tremendous help with my company's up-start. I always find myself returning to Unique after shopping around. There are times that I use other products but not with the frequency that I use Unique's. I would hope the AOLP would not succumb to lobbyist activities. It would be great to have the support of all manu's on the AOLP for the betterment of the organization. I know each of the lighting pro's have there favored manu's but I hope that won't interfere with the professionalism of the organization. Well I know where to find you on LS and I have a PH # and email so I'll keep in touch. The best to you and Unique!

We Joey i will as of right now no longer sell, carry, install, or even service Kichler, i will pull out their product on calls and replace it with your product.

I thank both of you guys for your support! You know I am here to help in anyway I can and you know Unique will do whatever we can as a company to support you in all aspects of your lighting buisness! Thanks again for your support!

Joey D.

[Pro-Scapes]

I think this is pretty stupid since we are all so passionate about our craft.

I dont see why we all cant co exist and find a happy median. Unique and Kichler are competitors but they both have thier loyal followers.

I met Mike Southard at light fair and have spoken to him on occasion and I think he is a great guy but I do also agree there should be no manufactures or people with an agenda on the board. Its just bad for all members.

I have not yet renewed my membership yet and I have yet to decide if I will. I know people say the association is in its infant years but I also dont like the division among members and drama I see.

I am getting way to busy to keep up with the drama

[JoeyD]

Mike is a great guy, I agree. Our problem has never been with him personally but we feel that it just isn't fair when you have a guy representing a company that obviously is against us not just as competitors but against our ways of lighting and goes so far to call them dangerous and potentially harmful and then insinuates we are trying to pull wool over the eyes of our customers. Mike did not do this but his company did with their letter.

It is inherent that they (Kichler) will try and impose their views on the association and that is fine but when they are on the board, along with the Kichler contractor of the year, it is impossible for us to get a fair shake.

As for the drama, well this industry seems to be full of it. We tend to often be on the defensive whether it be because of a knockoff company ripping us off, a competitor bashing our system, or someone telling another person that we are illegal and kill people and burn down houses and whatever else nonsense has been said.

But as you can see on the AOLP forum right now, some of the members cause drama amongst themselves which is crazy. For an organization that is trying to perceive itself as being professional to see the stuff they tolerate is beyond myself and our company. We are not perfect but you will never see us say the things that a couple of these guys are saying to each other on a forum like the AOLP's. It is not good for the organization nor is it good for the industry.

[niteliters]

Billy, the drama is caused by this activity. Mike southard didn't say these things. That is what joey said. I think he is incorrect as he later stated. As far as the rest of it my friend, Part of it is our profression, part is the nature of things. There will always be drama. Joey has accidently created some drama by insinuating that someone with Kichler, who serves on the board, said derogatory statements, later says it wasn't Mike but his organazation. That is what I call creating drama, among other things. Billy, I have been a part of this organazation for 3-4 years, my Father longer. As you know we install mostly nightscaping products. As the association grew and changed they too left for different reasons than Unique but with what I think is the same short sightedness. It is my belief that if something is worth while you stick with it, become more involved and approach those whom you disagree with and discuss before publicly making accusations. I had to deal with, for years, the ridicule if nightscaping among many at the conference. I could have quit but I am so glad I didn't. I will tell you why. What is happening here is you are not wanting to get wrapped up in manufacturer drama...don't. There is none of that at the conference, or in chat rooms unless you seek it out. If it finds you, seek new people with which to converse. Don't let this drama cloud the greater good that AOLP and only AOLP can give you. Contact with a diverse group of installers from all parts of the country and Canada using all kinds of different products. What is your bottom line, to support a manufacturer or to support you and your family? Being a member of AOLP has made me a better supporter of my family. Joey, I think this is the wrong decision for your company. I will miss you at the conference as well as your staff. You, as well as your bosses enthusiasm for this industry is matched by few. 2 years ago, I sat on the tailgate of Bill locklins truck talking with him and one of his higher ups and tried to reason with him regarding what was then still LVLIA. There was no budging him. I could feel that he was hurt by the invovlement of any manufacturers. But was that reason enough to pick up and leave? I wish he would have stayed. The AOLP is still and will remain about the contractor. Joey, I know I have read that your company is doing well. What's a few thousand to stick with it and work your side of an issue, agree to disagree and move on. Why are you penalizing the contractors who are members of the AOLP by breaking with us because of a disagreement with a manufacturer. i would humbly ask that you work that out with them, and stay on board. You said you didn't have anything against most of us. your decision hurts the contractors, not any manufacturers. This is not a manufacturer run association. A story from last years conference. There was a manufacturer there, there first year. He was constantly talking to contractors about there kraft, what type of fixtures they liked, what was easy, what was hard about there work. Sure, he was talking about his products and asking them to give him a try, he trying to provide for his family. But i saw a genuine interest in the contractor and humility on his part. In the months following the conference, I would get emails from this manufacturer talking about changes he was making to his product line based on input from contractors at the conference. The idea, in my opinion, Of the AOLP is to make us all better at what we do. Come to the AOLP conference in AZ in january and let's continue doing that.

[TXNSLighting]

I have yet to become a member of the AOLP, and will definately not now. you guys dont need em, you are a fantastic company who makes the absolute best products money can buy. I will always be in support of you guys. I keep learning more about your fixtures and cant wait for new things to come!

[Pro-Scapes]

I hear ya joey. I think its time for a couple of sapporos at NoBu... That place rocked.

[JoeyD]

Billy, the drama is caused by this activity. Mike southard didn't say these things. That is what joey said. Chris, you must have misread as I never once ever said that Mike was the one who said these things or wrote this letter. His company did and that is all I referred too.I think he is incorrect as he later stated. As far as the rest of it my friend, Part of it is our profression, part is the nature of things. There will always be drama. Joey has accidently created some drama by insinuating that someone with Kichler, who serves on the board, said derogatory statements, later says it wasn't Mike but his organazation. I never once said Mike said these things, not once. That is what I call creating drama, among other things. Billy, I have been a part of this organazation for 3-4 years, my Father longer. As you know we install mostly nightscaping products. As the association grew and changed they too left for different reasons than Unique but with what I think is the same short sightedness. We are not short sighted whatsoever Chris but when you have Kichler on the board and kichler is very proudly announcing to the public that we are dangerous and unsafe and then the CLVLT somewhat backs those statements by what it teaches what do you think we are left to think? It is my belief that if something is worth while you stick with it, become more involved and approach those whom you disagree with and discuss before publicly making accusations. We did not make accusations we only pointed out the truth and the facts. Again this wasn't all about Kichler, this was about the Association as a whole and many things led up to us making this decision. For example the fact that the AOLP allowed an ad from a company that was openly knocking off a patented product or products of ours. The Kichler letter was just the final straw for us. I had to deal with, for years, the ridicule if nightscaping among many at the conference. I could have quit but I am so glad I didn't. I will tell you why. What is happening here is you are not wanting to get wrapped up in manufacturer drama...don't. It is not manufacturer drama. There hasn't been any manufacturer drama that I have seen. I see drama between the actual members. One member telling another that he was drinking water from a toilet in a strip club on the AOLP's forum. Then that member firing back with if he would basically mind his own business then he would be a better lighting guy. That is the drama that I believe Billy is referring too.There is none of that at the conference, or in chat rooms unless you seek it out. What about a member telling our owner not to speak, and not doing this in private but doing this in front of the AOLP at conference?If it finds you, seek new people with which to converse. Don't let this drama cloud the greater good that AOLP and only AOLP can give you. Contact with a diverse group of installers from all parts of the country and Canada using all kinds of different products. What is your bottom line, to support a manufacturer or to support you and your family? Being a member of AOLP has made me a better supporter of my family. Joey, I think this is the wrong decision for your company. It may be but there is no way we can continue to feed money to an organization that only shows support with words and not actions. I will miss you at the conference as well as your staff. You, as well as your bosses enthusiasm for this industry is matched by few. 2 years ago, I sat on the tailgate of Bill locklins truck talking with him and one of his higher ups and tried to reason with him regarding what was then still LVLIA. There was no budging him. I could feel that he was hurt by the invovlement of any manufacturers. But was that reason enough to pick up and leave? I wish he would have stayed. Well maybe now with us leaving this should be a sign to the AOLP that Manus should not be on the board at minimum. The AOLP is still and will remain about the contractor. Joey, I know I have read that your company is doing well. What's a few thousand to stick with it and work your side of an issue, agree to disagree and move on. Why are you penalizing the contractors who are members of the AOLP by breaking with us because of a disagreement with a manufacturer. Again, this isn't just about the manufacturer and it isn't about the money. This is about pouring funds into an association that by association is showing more support for one style of lighting (UL1838) and allows a manufacturer who is publicly against us sit on the board along with there #1 contractor. The chips we feel are stacked against us. i would humbly ask that you work that out with them, and stay on board. You said you didn't have anything against most of us. your decision hurts the contractors, not any manufacturers. This is not a manufacturer run association. It may not be run by manus but it is inherently going to be influenced by them if they sit on your board! And believe me I agree 100% that the people that will hurt the most from this is not us but the members. I think most understand what we bring to the table and I can honestly say not one other manufacturer can do what we can with the credibility to back it up. Others will pick up where we leave off but even then people still know who really brought this styled system and ways of teaching to the industry. A story from last years conference. There was a manufacturer there, there first year. He was constantly talking to contractors about there kraft, what type of fixtures they liked, what was easy, what was hard about there work. Sure, he was talking about his products and asking them to give him a try, he trying to provide for his family. But i saw a genuine interest in the contractor and humility on his part. In the months following the conference, I would get emails from this manufacturer talking about changes he was making to his product line based on input from contractors at the conference. The idea, in my opinion, Of the AOLP is to make us all better at what we do. I couldn't agree more. That should be what the AOLP is about but when you donate thousands of dollars in products, and you spend thousands to participate and you get nothing in return from the AOLP it is hard to justify continuing on. Now obviously we got great feedback from members and we made some huge leaps with members so please do not think we discredit that. This is our biggest issue with leaving ourselves is that we will not be able to see all of you members at conference. Come to the AOLP conference in AZ in January and let's continue doing that. I wish we could but I just don't see it happening.

[JoeyD]

I have yet to become a member of the AOLP, and will definately not now. you guys dont need em, you are a fantastic company who makes the absolute best products money can buy. I will always be in support of you guys. I keep learning more about your fixtures and cant wait for new things to come!

Thanks Buddy! You are a huge support and I personally and Unique really appreciate it!!

[JoeyD]

I hear ya joey. I think its time for a couple of sapporos at NoBu... That place rocked.

That place did rock! Once we get you out here to San Diego were gonna take you to Katsu!!

[Firefly Lighting]

Joey- As the current President of the AOLP I would like to comment on what is taking place. First let me state that (for those of you which do not know me) that I fully supported and worked to get Unique to join the organization and am disheartened by there leaving. This organization has made leaps and bounds in the 4+ years that I have served on the board and it continues to do so despite certain conflicts that arise and which are just part of dealing with many different personalities and perspectives. I will say though that the notion that the AOLP is a UL1838 organization is false and we have even gone so far as to not take a stance on such a misunderstood and controversial issue. In my belief it is a standard that is out of date and incorrect. Another falsehood that exists is the notion that by having Mike Southard on the board of the AOLP it in some way influences our decisions and actions. This is one point that I am very adiment about, no manufacturer member or distributor member or anyone else for that matter will ever influence the board or this organization one way or the other, it this were to occur I would ask them to step down. Mike Southard has been nothing but an asset for the organization as a board member and it has nothing to do with Kichler, on matters where there was a conflict of intrest he has obstained as he should and not once has he even hinted at influence on issues of the board, he has been just another person whom is passionate about this industry and the AOLP. For me the AOLP is a worthy group of persons who care about this industry and that is why I have devoted much time and money personally in helping it grow. My modo has been principals before personalities, you can't judge an organization by one of its members. Joey knows that I have a great deal of admiration for both him and Nate and will continue to be friends in spite of this upset. I would also like to point out that the AOLP has never attacked or gone against Uniuqe as some of the less informed people have insinuated, the AOLP applauds Nate and Unique for their continued commitment to push low voltage lighting to the next level and we support that 100%. And for me personally, as someone who installed the first fixtures Unique ever made way back when, it is regretful that this has occured and I would hope that we could not burn all the bridges on the way out.

Thanks
Matthew Broyles
Firefly Lighting LLC

[JoeyD]

Mat you truly are a class act. You do a great job and your message is well received by me here. Unfortunately as I have explained to Mike S. in private perception is reality and with all of these issues, this letter, and the fact that Mike/Kichler sits on the board it is hard to believe that there is no influencing going on. Maybe I am wrong, maybe we have over reacted? There are just to many things stacked up for us to definitively say one way or another.

I do not want to burn this bridge, I do not want to say that Unique will never re consider membership, but as of today I just don't see it happening. Either way I am sure both the AOLP and Unique will learn a great deal here.

The respect between Unique, Nate, and Myself is mutual for you Mat. You are a great lighting guy, a great president for the AOLP, and a strait shooter that everyone can respect and appreciate. In no way should this decision be a reflection on your leadership. You do a great job. As I have stated before, I am the one that is the most upset over all of this. I stand to lose some friends, and some customers, both of which worries me but it is a decision Unique has made and as an employee I have to do the job that is asked of me.

Your efforts are appreciated,

Joey D.

[JoeyD]

I want to add one thing. The reason I take these things public is because one way or another they go public, usually at the hands of our competition. It may not be in a letter or in a piece of literature. But it will come out in conversation and therefor we use this forum to better explain our side, and give insight in a day and age where technology is being used all over the industry. So don't think just because some of you may have not read the letter that it wasn't public. I may have brought it to the forums but the day a contractor delivered Kichlers letter to my desk was the day I knew they Publicly tried to go at our system with insinuations of not being listed and safe. I would have addressed this AOLP issue with the AOLP but I was eliminated from their forum this last week without being notified so therefore I was never given an opportunity to address this issue with just the AOLP privately.

[niteliters]

Joey, you will not lose my friendship, the help you have offered to the company I work for and your support for our industry has been exceptional. Maybe you could run for the board on day :)

[niteliters]

Joey, from your comments above, i have 2 that stick with me. the clvlt test I would like to discuss further, maybe at the conference. manus on the board. I am a contractor and I am thankful for there involvement. We all bring our own perspectives based on our environment. Not just the work we do or the company we work for, but a life perspective. you have a life perspective and a passion for this industry. That who is on the board now. As you know there will be differences, sometimes heated, Let's work thru these issues and move forward. Your others points were taken also and I agree wtih many. I look forward to maybe seeing you face to face and working thru them

[JoeyD]

Thanks Chris. I dont ever like to say Never so we wont rule out any chance of us ever coming back to the AOLP. Maybe by some miracle we can make it back out to conference at minimum to shocase. Me personally it may be tough as I am having another baby at the beggining of Jan. Another boy on the way!

Thanks for all the reply's guys!!

[NightLightingFX]

Joey, I have talked with you personally re: the AOLP and I agree that Unique has been picked on. I can understand why Unique wouldn't want to continue supporting the AOLP. Sure there is drama and etc. There will always be drama in our community. Our community is made up of big egos and artistic attidudes - a recipe for drama.

Whether you realize it or not Unique has made SIGNIFICANT impact on the AOLP. If it wasn't for Unique I bet the likes of Cast wouldn't be involved. Over the 3 years I have been involved, in the last 2 years when Unique joined I have seen a big difference in openess among AOLP members.

I am guessing there might be some egos involved with your decision to discontinue you involvement with the AOLP. All I ask is that Unique continue to be a member - cut back on your generosity at the meeting etc, but I think your presence in the AOLP is needed for our industry. I challenge Unique to be a "BIGGER MAN" than Nightscaping and continue to be part of the AOLP.

The fact that some of the AOLP influences/teachings may contradict Unique's philosophy, and that Unique has been a member to me, shows that Unique does have quality character and they are trying to support the industry. I say continue to be a member of the AOLP in some capacity.

As for people who are going to give-up on the AOLP, because Unique is I think your are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Go to a conference before you make any pre-judgments on the AOLP. If you go to a conference and are disappointed - don't be a member. If you truly love outdoor lighting and you go to a conference you will be BLOWN AWAY!!!
~Ned

[JoeyD]

Ned, as always you have a great way simplifying things and putting things in perspective. I truly appreciate your response.

I want to be clear that we do not discredit the positive leaps we have made with the membership of the AOLP in terms of explaining and teaching our system. Those facts can not be ignored. The response we received from majority of the membership was awesome. I will tell you I felt right at home talking with and hanging with the members at conferences and earlier this year in Las Vegas at Lightfair.

Unfortunately this decision is out of my hands. I did everything I could to convince Nate and Unique to join and then it took everything to convince the company that we shouldn't leave. But when you sit back and look at all of the last years events coupled with how things are taught in the CLVLT which is AOLP's strongest form of education it just doesn't sit right.

Nate told me he met with all the leaders of the AOLP last year and explained our position and the changes we felt should be made to not only accommodate us but accommodate a larger group of members and manufacturers. If you look at it there are thousands of lighting professionals who have overlooked the AOLP because they feel they don't need to go to learn about UL1838 systems. Many feel that learning those systems or being certified in those systems is going backwards for them. Nate said he made it pretty clear that some of these changes needed to take place, and that he would offer up his resources to help. We were never approached.

But don't get me wrong here, we are not saying that if the AOLP would just listen to us or would adopt our way of teaching then we wouldn't pick our ball up and leave the court. We are simply stating that no attempt was made to do anything different that we can see from 3 years ago until today. The same CLVLT is being taught and although a design course has been implemented it still doesn't address the core differences between ours and CASTS way of installing a system and what the CLVLT does.

We have been told by members from the president to the distributing partner that our presence is needed and wanted. But when the words are not backed by actions it doesn't leave me much fighting room. The powers that be feel that our marketing dollars would be better used in promoting training and implementing our own programs that work with other authorities / companies in the industry to create a certification that has some credible endorsement.

[NightLightingFX]

I am not in a place to judge what kind of "Return Of Investment" Unique needs to continue being involved with the AOLP. Regarding short term there probably not a big ROI in being involved with the AOLP. Long term it is a "crap shoot," - who knows how the AOLP will evolve? If Unique was to continue to be involved with the AOLP I would surmise that the long term "ROI" would be improved by Uniques' involvement.

Anyways I am sure the powers-to-be "Nate" have all ready made up their minds.

[JoeyD]

Unfortunately Nate has made up his mind as well as Kyle and Randy. These are all guys who have helped in making this decision. But as far as the ROI, it isn't something we look at as, "OK we have invested $5K in the AOLP we should be able to show $10K in sales because of it..." It's not like that. We hope that we would be able to see the AOLP take shape by saying "OK, lets revamp our CLVLT to teach the proper way to wire and test a multi-tap to 22v. Maybe we should get Unique involved to see if they have some input here...." That would be the ROI we are looking for. Maybe for them to make a push with UL to create a specifi listing for systems beyond 15v for LANDCAPE LIGHTING, that would be the ROI that WE would be hoping for, it's not always about the dollars. Now would this happen next year, 5 years? Who knows, but for us to be going on our 3rd year and no mention of it be made then what are we to do? Then pile on all the other factors I have already mentioned it just doesn't create a positive outlook for us.

But while on the topic of ROI, something Nate brought up with me is he never could tell where the money goes with the AOLP? How is it being spent, how is this money they are collecting from contracting, distributing, and manufacturing members being used to benefit the industry? Is the $$ being spent on website maintenance, national awareness and marketing campaigns, conference, and or the actual running of the AOLP on the inside? I can tell you that we pay $2500 just to be a member, then we pay almost $500 per person just to attend conference, then we have to pay to sponsor something like badges or whatever if we choose to do so, then we have to pay to EXHIBIT at the conference that we already paid to attend? Where does all this money go? I am sure there is a logical response.

Again, I don't want to go round and round and beat this horse over and over but there are lots of reasons that add up to us making this hard decision. Is it a bad decision? Possibly, but it is one we have made and will have to live with and see if it was the right one or the wrong one.

[worx]

Joey I am obviously a little late in the dilemma that has arisen, but if you don't mind could you explain (in a nut shell) the differences that are being referred to. UL1838 and the CLVLT?

Thanks for the clarification and I will continue my support of Unique.

[JoeyD]

No problem Steve. I am sure some others will have input here but the CLVLT certifies AOLP members in accordance with UL1838 system standards. Therfor they only teach or certify on systems ranging from 12-15v. They do not explain systems beyond this limitation. I am sure there is more but that is it in a nutshell. As you know there is a many ways to wire a sysetm properly and the most popular way we feel is to utilize a multi-tap transformer and use higher taps vs. larger wire and more power to produce adequate voltage to lamps. This CLVLT test was developed some years ago with a heavy nightscaping influence.

This is only what WE have been told BY several CLVLT holding members. I may be wrong, so if I am I am very open to correction.

[NightLightingFX]

OK, So the real proplem is the CLVLT program. Maybe this should be more publisized among the members. Maybe right now numbers of the board may not be infavor of Unique but in time with your influence and Cast's influence things will change.

I know there must be some kind of conflict with the AOLP and Unique's "Lite Certification." The AOLP's CLVLT needs to evolve with the new tech. - LEDs and 24v system. Uniques "Lite Certification," - will it fall along the wayside of Uniques NILLA?

[NightScenes]

Joey, I have sat here and not said a word on this subject but I have to say something whether or not you decide to actually allow the public to see it. The CLVLT is based on the NEC only!!!!!!! It is NOT based on UL anything!!! I will comment on the rest of this "stuff" later.

[JoeyD]

OK, So the real problem is the CLVLT program. Maybe this should be more publicized among the members. Maybe right now numbers of the board may not be in favor of Unique but in time with your influence and Cast's influence things will change.

I know there must be some kind of conflict with the AOLP and Unique's "Lite Certification." The AOLP's CLVLT needs to evolve with the new tech. - LEDs and 24v system. Uniques "Lite Certification," - will it fall along the wayside of Uniques NILLA?

Ned the CLVLT is PART of the problem not the REAL problem. There are MANY issues that I think I have pretty clearly laid out.

As for LITE, I see no conflict. LITE is a multi-teared certification taught by GE, PCS, IllumFX, Ushio, ABT Wireless, Paige Electric, Innovative Pool Products, and Us. There are different certs that can be obtained from Installation to design to fiber optics to automation to lamps and to wire. We have been developing this program for a while now and were doing this even when we still had plans of being in the AOLP. LITE would compliment the CLVLT that a lot of members carry however the LITE program is held outside of the AOLP. LITE has no bearing on why we are pulling out.

In no way should it be compared to NILLA, this is a whole new program, and as you can see by the companies involved this is an endorsed and supported program, its not just a Unique program although we are heading it up. We even invited some other competing manufacturers to join us and that may still happen. This should be one of the best training programs in the industry.

[JoeyD]

Joey, I have sat here and not said a word on this subject but I have to say something whether or not you decide to actually allow the public to see it. The CLVLT is based on the NEC only!!!!!!! It is NOT based on UL anything!!! I will comment on the rest of this "stuff" later.


Paul, everything that has been posted on our forum here on this subject has been approved. We are not trying to hide anything, we have no secret agenda here to out the AOLP. Unfortunately I think you are going to find that there are quite a few members who feel exactly the same way as us. We have nothing to hide. If I am wrong regarding the CLVLT then please correct me. As I stated above, our opinions of the CLVLT were generated by people holding the CLVLT. It's not like we have ever handled the test or been offered to look at it. The CLVLT seems like its a secret that only people enrolled to take can get the study materials for. So again, if we are wrong in our feelings towards the CLVLT then do please inform us if you wish. I am glad that it is taught based upon the NEC and not UL but again from what we were told it does not address systems beyond 15v in its training. Again, maybe we were informed wrong?

I feel bad that this is seeming to turn into this battle of us vs. the AOLP. I simply wanted to put out why we are leaving and what our reasons are because knowing this industry and knowing the egos involved in the industry and in the association an opposite story potentially could be shared. We wanted to make it clear as to the concerns WE have had as well as the issues that have taken place to bring us to making this decision. Right or wrong I am only explaining our position here. Nothing more nothing less. I go back to my statement of unfortunately I feel like we are going to lose a few customers and I may lose a few friends over this and it does bother me.

[NightLightingFX]

The concept of your "Lite Certification" sounds good. I wish the AOLP was open to your ideas. If your "Lite Certification" gets cooperation from your compeditors, then you might create a "Cert. Program" that will have a lot of credibility.

Our industry needs some kind of certification program. The problem is that there is only a small pool of professionals scattered across the country that are willing to work hard for a credible certification program. This makes administering the program difficult and expensive. To me it seems like Unique and the AOLP should REALLY try hard to create something togather for the industry.

Two competing "certifications" will diminish each other. I would really like to see politics and egos moved aside - I would like to see Unique and the AOLP work togather.

I don't like to see arguing and drama over the forums but I would like to see a discussion on the AOLP forum between AOLP boardmembers/members and Unique. What would it take to keep Unique as a member?
~Ned

[JoeyD]

I think the certifications (CLVLT and LITE) could compliment eachother. The problem with the AOLP and Unique working to do what you are proposing would probably cause havoc with other manufacturer members who feel that anything outside UL1838 is not legal and safe. I think heads would butt, and not becuase of ego but because of difference in opinion regarding UL's Landscape Lighting listings. This is my opinion.

I personally would LOVE for the AOLP and Unique to be working togeather on the design and technical certifications but I dont think that the AOLP really wanted to work with us in regards to certification, I mean they had the opportunity to ask and incude us but never did. I think those in chagre of both the CLVLT and design courses feel they have it pretty well figured out. I belive the AOLP is too afraid to show an alliance with Unique for fear of alienating the manufacturers and members who are not believers in anything non UL1838 approved and may not be fond of Unique for whatever reason. Again, JUST MY OPINION.

I would love to continue open discussion with the AOLP's board and members but like I stated the reason I posted this here and not on their forum was because I was eliminated from the forum for not being a member anymore before even having a chance to say good bye or explain any of this. So our forum here was the next option. So far the discussion has been good I feel, unfortunatley I know there are a host of people who think this stuff is just Unique throwing a fit when in reality this is stuff we have been concerned about for some time now.

[irrig8r]

I'm obviously late to this thread and all the drama... and have no comments to add.
Anything changed since 12/16?


Joey... BTW how's the new addition to the family? You getting enough sleep?

[JoeyD]

Nothing has changed. We are OUT and thats it. AOLP and Unique will both move on and operate without a hiccup. We wish the AOLP good luck in the future!

As for the new addition he is doing really well! He is a lot like his daddy in his teenage years...he sleeps all day and is ready to party all night!! LOL

[Firefly Prof. Lighting]

Wow, I don't know how I missed this thread. Here I was all gung ho about joining the AOLP this year and getting a local, regional chapter started. I didn't realize that they were strictly teaching only 1838. This makes no sense to me at all. Why did they even change their name? If the association is truly about "Lighting Professionals", shouldn't that encompass all arenas and voltages of lighting? Would a painter limit himself to trying to paint every canvas with one particular paintbrush? Why would a lighting designer limit himself to only 1838 lighting when he may need line voltage for a particular instance? The whole aim of the organization seems a bit off and somewhat exclusive to me. If it is truly an Association of Outdoor lighting professionals, shouldn't that include everyone across the board who installs lighting "outdoors", whether it be an EC who installs line voltage illumination for large commercial buildings or the low and mid voltage specialist who specializes in high end residential? To me it seems the focus should be on educating the lighting professional on new and innovative ways to incorporate new technologies as they emerge and to enhance the design practices of the individual regardless of his voltage specialty. Joey, If they are truly only teaching 1838 principles then I would have to agree with you that their aim is fairly short sighted. I hope that this is not the case as I was very excited about getting involved with them this year. I believe it is not in the organizations best interest to have a representative of a major manufacturer sitting on the board influencing decisions that may positively effect their company financially or show any favoritism that could directly effect their bottom line.

As to adressing the alegations that Uniques systems are dangerous. To me this is just one manufacturer having to much direct influence in the organization and deliberatly spreading misinformation in the interest of their own bottom line. If they think 30v is reckless and dangerous what do they have to say about lights and wiring inside of the customers home that are 120v. Funny, you don't hear anything about that but I sure do see a plethera of line voltage fixtures represented by Kichler for sale to the DIY crowd on the web. I guess homeowners are qualified installers though. I guess I am going to sit on the sidelines for a while and watch what happens. I don't think I would spend the money to join an organization if it only preached one style and has a manu on the board. This should be a contractor run organization, period!

Joey, as for accounting for the money you have contributed; Don't they have an annual budget meeting and don't they give a financial statement to all the members once a year so their is accountability for funds distibution and allocation?

[JoeyD]

According to their board they teach according to the NEC which means they do accept our way of lighting. BUT from what I hear their CLVLT certification only teaches on 1838 equipment?

To my knowledge noone outside the board gets a financial statement.......I could be wrong their too?

Anyone hear how the AOLP COnference went? What attendance was like?

[Firefly Prof. Lighting]

Is the AOLP only geered for the limited energy divisions or does it encompass line voltage design standards also? I have always wondered about this but have never known for sure.

For any of you guys that are members, do you get an annual financial statement from the organization on how dues are spent and break down of where organizational dollars go?

Thanks, I am just trying to learn more about the ornaization.

[JoeyD]

Well that was why they changed their name from the LVLIA to the AOLP so that they could include ALL lighting professionals.

[Firefly Prof. Lighting]

Well that was why they changed their name from the LVLIA to the AOLP so that they could include ALL lighting professionals.

do they include all?

[JoeyD]

They do include all but I belive that most all of the members are LV professionals!

[Firefly Prof. Lighting]

Ok, Thanks Joey. That is good to know. Now they need to take the next logical step and teach some of the other wiring standards also then, IMO.

[Firefly Lighting]

Tim- Just thought I would chime in here. The CLVLT tests on equipment other than 1838. The organization does not preach 1838, though some of it members may, which is there right. The AOLP supports a change in UL standards (which we are working towards) to a Professional standard (30 volts or Less) , 1838 is really for Malibu "kit" systems anyway. We do provide financial statments to all members at the annual meeting and all members can see the books anytime they request it.

I would be happy to answer any other questions you may have.

Thanks
Matthew Broyles

[JoeyD]

Thanks for posting Matt!

[Firefly Prof. Lighting]

Hey Matt,
Thanks for the response. All very good news. I will be getting on board.