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replenish&subdue
12-11-2008, 10:20 PM
I now need to find suppliers for organic products,cotton burr...ect.What are some foundational products you use and what suppliers have you found that offer good service and prices?

treegal1
12-11-2008, 10:44 PM
hahahaha, smirk, grin. ever hear of compost............

molasses,worm casts, vinegar, charcoal,manure, wood ash, oh my

and the tin man did not need a heart...................

Kiril
12-12-2008, 12:23 AM
Find a good supply of compost ... THAT is your first task. Any other amendments come on an as needed basis.

TG, you are such a wise ass.

Smallaxe
12-12-2008, 09:25 AM
Another concept of organics that would actually make it cheaper than synthetics is - buy locally.

I doubt there is anything in cotton burr that would make it necessary for me to have it shipped all the way up here. We do on the other hand have a fish processor that sells fish waste, all packaged ready for use.

There are a lot of claims about what is needed for a balanced nutrient rich soil, but realistically, the idea that cotton is better than fish or vice versa is pretty nitpicky for grass. :)

Dchall_San_Antonio
01-01-2009, 03:01 AM
If your products have to carry a label for application safety and all that, then this suggestion won't help you; but any feed store, mill, or farmer's co-op has plain brown bags of protein in the form of corn, maize, flax (linseed), soy, alfalfa, cottonseed, milo, etc. A mill can mix, grind and bag any blend you want. If you buy a pallet or more they will cut you a deal. The application rate is 10-20 pounds per 1,000 square feet. You can go up or down from there. 80 pounds per 1,000 is too much. If you use molasses and have your own container you can get it for about $1.00 per gallon from a co-op. At that price you should offer it whether it seems to do anything or not. Spray every surface of every plant at a rate of 1 gallon per acre or 3 ounces per 1,000 square feet. It appears to deter sucking insects (like spider mites) as well as the protein eating ants (like fire ants).

If you have a supply of chipped tree trimmings, and you have room to do it, you can compost that yourself. I've never composted them per se but supposedly the small limbs on trees have enough "greens" to allow the composting to work pretty well. I'd be inclined to add lots of clean horse manure and mix it up, but that's me. (Clean means no Picloram herbicide used in the horse feed - Picloram is a broadleaf killer persists forever it seems and will kill trees with roots under a lawn).

Kiril
01-01-2009, 10:08 AM
If your products have to carry a label for application safety and all that, then this suggestion won't help you; but any feed store, mill, or farmer's co-op has plain brown bags of protein in the form of corn, maize, flax (linseed), soy, alfalfa, cottonseed, milo, etc. A mill can mix, grind and bag any blend you want. If you buy a pallet or more they will cut you a deal. The application rate is 10-20 pounds per 1,000 square feet. You can go up or down from there. 80 pounds per 1,000 is too much.

The "organic" path is supposed to also be a sustainable one. Using feed stock to fertilize is about as far from sustainable as you can get.

If you use molasses and have your own container you can get it for about $1.00 per gallon from a co-op. At that price you should offer it whether it seems to do anything or not. Spray every surface of every plant at a rate of 1 gallon per acre or 3 ounces per 1,000 square feet. It appears to deter sucking insects (like spider mites) as well as the protein eating ants (like fire ants).

References with respect to the benefits of molasses and foliar applications?

ICT Bill
01-02-2009, 12:03 AM
Apologies, Mr Dchall, The majority of companies are straight up and do not break the law

If you use a product that is not labeled as a fertilizer, you are in violation of the law in every state we are registered in

Prolawnservice
01-02-2009, 01:24 PM
If you use a product that is not labeled as a fertilizer, you are in violation of the law in every state we are registered in

Not if you use it as "a soil amendment" or "source of OM" and call it so.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-02-2009, 08:47 PM
just because it not legal for that purpose doesn't make it wrong or illegal to use it like pro said, to amend the soil with OM :waving:

i hear bill has a bridge in new york he like to sell you?

JDUtah
01-02-2009, 08:51 PM
just because it not legal for that purpose doesn't make it wrong or illegal to use it like pro said, to amend the soil with OM :waving:


...IF you could care less about your integrity... and you question Bills? I think that deserves a "pffft".

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-02-2009, 09:04 PM
jd give me a break? are you not adding om or amending the soil by using them??

why should that be illegal to use them, i never said use them only as a fert and charge your costumers for fert services???? did i say that?

get out of the chem mind set when discussing organic's, when i add a organic product im not feeding the plant,

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-02-2009, 09:16 PM
and jd if you what to nit pick one's words to point out integritey bill only seems to care who breaking the law where his products are??

go pick a fight some where else,

JDUtah
01-02-2009, 09:25 PM
Ignoring one side of the coin does not annihilate it.

But that is the end of my points here...

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-02-2009, 09:34 PM
Ignoring one side of the coin does not annihilate it.

But that is the end of my points here...

that's cool....i'm never quite sure what your points are anyway

Dchall_San_Antonio
01-04-2009, 05:55 AM
The "organic" path is supposed to also be a sustainable one. Using feed stock to fertilize is about as far from sustainable as you can get.
I disagree. I've been reading about organic farming and gardening for years and if I've learned anything it is that there is a wide spectrum of what passes for organic practices. So while you are certainly free to practice it in your own way, I disagree with the idea that organic and sustainable are related in any way. Professional lawn care is about making a great looking turf. I have never seen that done in a sustainable way, but as soon as I finish with this message, I'll search the forum for discussions of your sustainable lawn care program.

References with respect to the benefits of molasses and foliar applications?

Please do the research yourself. There are hundreds of links on all sides of this issue. If I quote you my favorites you are sure to come up with studies that show no effect. Start by Googling molasses "spider mites"

I'm always amused that there are people who will not spend $0.30 total over a couple weeks to try something but they will spend hours and hours looking for an article. At some point you have to stop cutting bait and go fishing.

Dchall_San_Antonio
01-04-2009, 06:05 AM
Apologies, Mr Dchall, The majority of companies are straight up and do not break the law

If you use a product that is not labeled as a fertilizer, you are in violation of the law in every state we are registered in

I completely understand and understand the reasons for the laws. The chemical companies have those laws written so tightly there is just about no possible way for a professional to put anything on the ground unless the chem companies made it. I think the laws need to be reviewed in light of the concept of organic fertilizers as we now understand them (sources of protein and carbohydrates rather than sources of NPK). I also think the training/education requirements for organic applicators should be a little different - not harder or longer, just a little different. Organic lawn care is just a slightly different orientation. In my opinion organic lawn care is much easier than chemical lawn care.

dishboy
01-04-2009, 10:23 AM
Or you could after give the state the $45.00 they want and certify/register your feed mix if you want to call it a fertilizer:usflag:

dishboy
01-04-2009, 10:28 AM
The "organic" path is supposed to also be a sustainable one. Using feed stock to fertilize is about as far from sustainable as you can get.

Since we are splitting hairs, what is your sustainable method of transporting and spreading these "sustainable" materials?

Kiril
01-04-2009, 01:30 PM
Professional lawn care is about making a great looking turf. I have never seen that done in a sustainable way, but as soon as I finish with this message, I'll search the forum for discussions of your sustainable lawn care program.

No need to search ... turf is not sustainable, hence the reason why I strongly promote getting rid of it.

Kiril
01-04-2009, 01:34 PM
Since we are splitting hairs, what is your sustainable method of transporting and spreading these "sustainable" materials?

A "sustainable" material would be one that is already produced in your waste stream (you have to do something with it), and/or natural produced by the system itself. How could anyone argue that growing crops to sell as fertilizer is a sustainable practice?

Kiril
01-04-2009, 02:29 PM
Various definitions of organic farming/agriculture for clarification.


http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/pubs/ofp/ofp.shtml

Organic agriculture is an ecological production management system that promotes and enhances biodiversity, biological cycles and soil biological activity. It is based on minimal use of off-farm inputs and on management practices that restore, maintain and enhance ecological harmony.


http://www.irs.aber.ac.uk/research/Organics/define.html

Organic farming can be defined as an approach to agriculture where the aim is to create integrated, humane, environmentally and economically sustainable agricultural production systems. Maximum reliance is placed on locally or farm-derived renewable resources and the management of self-regulating ecological and biological processes and interactions in order to provide acceptable levels of crop, livestock and human nutrition, protection from pests and diseases, and an appropriate return to the human and other resources employed. Reliance on external inputs, whether chemical or organic, is reduced as far as possible. In many European countries, organic agriculture is known as ecological agriculture, reflecting this reliance on ecosystem management rather than external inputs.


http://www.ifoam.org/growing_organic/definitions/doa/index.html

Organic agriculture is a production system that sustains the health of soils, ecosystems and people. It relies on ecological processes, biodiversity and cycles adapted to local conditions, rather than the use of inputs with adverse effects. Organic agriculture combines tradition, innovation and science to benefit the shared environment and promote fair relationships and a good quality of life for all involved.


http://www.fao.org/docrep/meeting/X0075e.htm#P86_4004

organic agriculture is a holistic production management system which promotes and enhances agro-ecosystem health, including biodiversity, biological cycles, and soil biological activity. It emphasises the use of management practices in preference to the use of off-farm inputs, taking into account that regional conditions require locally adapted systems. This is accomplished by using, where possible, agronomic, biological, and mechanical methods, as opposed to using synthetic materials, to fulfil any specific function within the system.

Organic agriculture is one of several approaches to sustainable agriculture and many of the techniques used (e.g. inter-cropping, rotation of crops, double-digging, mulching, integration of crops and livestock) are practised under various agricultural systems. What makes organic agriculture unique, as regulated under various laws and certification programmes, is that: (1) almost all synthetic inputs are prohibited,3 and (2) `soil building' crop rotations are mandated



Organic practices and sustainable practices are and should be intimately tied together.

Smallaxe
01-05-2009, 09:48 AM
One nice thing about our line of work, is that, one person's manicured landscape is another person's waste stream retrieval system.
People that like manicured lawns and garden with the funds to make it happen, provide a waste stream for people like me who enjoy making it happen.
So 'enjoyment of life' - is sustainable for 2 families right there.

Plus the added bonus of providing me with lots of raw materials for organic cycling.
Of course I am also going back to the misquito issue - and the idea - that sustainable often times equal "neglect" and vermin living under your doorstep.
Not a fan of the 'Utilitarian philosophy' that is called 'Sustainable'.

I do believe however that growing roundup ready corn and soybeans, spraying them with roundup, creating synthetic fertilizers to spread on them; then harvest, store, grind and haul them, for the purpose of throwing on someone's grass to grow "organically" - is a bit odd. :)

Smallaxe
01-05-2009, 10:09 AM
One nice thing about our line of work, is that, one person's manicured landscape is another person's waste stream retrieval system.
People that like manicured lawns and garden with the funds to make it happen, provide a waste stream for people like me who enjoy making it happen.
So 'enjoyment of life' - is sustainable for 2 families right there.

Plus the added bonus of providing me with lots of raw materials for organic cycling.
Of course I am also going back to the misquito issue - and the idea - that sustainable often times equal "neglect" and vermin living under your doorstep.
Not a fan of the 'Utilitarian philosophy' that is called 'Sustainable'.

I do believe however that growing roundup ready corn and soybeans, spraying them with roundup, creating synthetic fertilizers to spread on them; then harvest, store, grind and haul them, for the purpose of throwing on someone's grass to grow "organically" - is a bit odd. :)

Kiril
01-05-2009, 11:03 AM
Of course I am also going back to the misquito issue - and the idea - that sustainable often times equal "neglect" and vermin living under your doorstep.
Not a fan of the 'Utilitarian philosophy' that is called 'Sustainable'.

Not really sure where this comes from, nor am I entirely sure I follow the thinking either.

NattyLawn
01-05-2009, 12:45 PM
Maybe I'm missing something here, but isn't CGM a byproduct of the wet milling process used to make corn starch? Granted the meal could be used as cattle feed or a filler in dog food, but I don't think it's as simple as growing food crops for fertilizer.

JDUtah
01-05-2009, 02:45 PM
Almost all waste streams eventually find their way into a production line of some sort. (even landfills are harvesting methane... or trying to install arc reactors.) If sustainable organics relied only on waste streams that no other industry utilized we would have a hard time. We do not have the volume to keep the people with the waste stream completely economically interested in us. Other industries find recycling uses as well. CGM being one of them... What does that mean? Eh, you decide...

Kiril
01-05-2009, 04:35 PM
Maybe I'm missing something here, but isn't CGM a byproduct of the wet milling process used to make corn starch? Granted the meal could be used as cattle feed or a filler in dog food, but I don't think it's as simple as growing food crops for fertilizer.

Key words highlighted.

Mr. Nice
01-05-2009, 05:48 PM
Sustainable or not?

My felling is any waste stream material fall's in the category of being called sustainable. for farms with animals it's much easier but for a average lawn care company to be completely?

We have a society today that is more interested in what you can do for them, then what WE can do together as a people and a community with a shared goal in mind......healthier, safer world for ALL

Until that happen's I commend all that can practice organic gardening on any level in a true sustainable way, feasibly and economically.

Those of you who have to adapt and utilize any available organic'c soil amending material's to accomplish your grow i commend you as well for taking a step in a more responsible direction then the chem approach. which is the goal,to not use synthetics

If the only thing you have access to is low quality compost and grain meals grown with synthetic's, i would prefer my community to go that route for their lawn/garden care then the current chem approach till we can implement a nation wide accepted economical approach to safe sustainable land care that provides results. what's ya think?

JDUtah
01-05-2009, 06:26 PM
Sustainable or not?

My felling is any waste stream material fall's in the category of being called sustainable. for farms with animals it's much easier but for a average lawn care company to be completely?

We have a society today that is more interested in what you can do for them, then what WE can do together as a people and a community with a shared goal in mind......healthier, safer world for ALL

Until that happen's I commend all that can practice organic gardening on any level in a true sustainable way, feasibly and economically.

Those of you who have to adapt and utilize any available organic'c soil amending material's to accomplish your grow i commend you as well for taking a step in a more responsible direction then the chem approach. which is the goal,to not use synthetics

If the only thing you have access to is low quality compost and grain meals grown with synthetic's, i would prefer my community to go that route for their lawn/garden care then the current chem approach till we can implement a nation wide accepted economical approach to safe sustainable land care that provides results. what's ya think?

I think I need a few years to monopolize the nation with my sustainable lawn care services. ;)

Welcome to the forum.

Is your name Charles?

NattyLawn
01-05-2009, 06:52 PM
I think I need a few years to monopolize the nation with my sustainable lawn care services. ;)

Welcome to the forum.

Is your name Charles?

I was thinking the same thing..:laugh:

Marcos
01-05-2009, 07:02 PM
I now need to find suppliers for organic products,cotton burr...ect.What are some foundational products you use and what suppliers have you found that offer good service and prices?

Vegetable proteins like corn meal, soybean meal, alfalfa meal, cotton seed meal & corn gluten can usually be accessed at various agricultural CO-OPS or (genuine) feed stores in and around your region.

This, of course, will usually require the average urbanite a trip with some type of covered van to "the country" to get these types of supplies; so it's often wise to stock up for a few months down the road.
Don't forget to set out mice/rat bait packs in and around the stored bags of meal, especially if you know your shed / barn is prone to them.

(With all due respect, ladies & gentlemen, not every homeowner is going to take the time and/or trouble to start a compost pile on their lot.)

JDUtah
01-05-2009, 07:28 PM
I was thinking the same thing..:laugh:

About his name or the monopoly? 'Cause if it was the monopoly I would have to say, "You goin down sucka'!" Jokes.

JDUtah
01-05-2009, 07:29 PM
Vegetable proteins like corn meal, soybean meal, alfalfa meal, cotton seed meal & corn gluten can usually be accessed at various agricultural CO-OPS or (genuine) feed stores in and around your region.

This, of course, will usually require the average urbanite a trip with some type of covered van to "the country" to get these types of supplies; so it's often wise to stock up for a few months down the road.
Don't forget to set out mice/rat bait packs in and around the stored bags of meal, especially if you know your shed / barn is prone to them.

(With all due respect, ladies & gentlemen, not every homeowner is going to take the time and/or trouble to start a compost pile on their lot.)

Carefull about the bait packs... especially if synthetics are a nono in your mind. Just employ local neighborhood kids with bb guns. :)

Marcos
01-05-2009, 07:48 PM
Carefull about the bait packs... especially if synthetics are a nono in your mind. Just employ local neighborhood kids with bb guns. :)

Whatt'ya mean? ;)
Why wouldn't this be acceptable in trying to keep vermin away?

Sorry... Nobody's going to be shooting BB guns inside my pole barn, especially some KID!

Old-fashioned spring-traps are stupid to use in this type of situation.
It's a recipe for disaster, needless to say......:laugh:

Bait packs placed within sacks of (whatever) are a no-brainer, as far as killing mice is concerned.
As long as you place them IN AMONG the sacks, so that your pets can't have to access them.

Alot of times, the A.I. of these packs is the chemical warfarin, the same stuff many people use these days to prevent heart attacks & strokes after they'd already had one.
It's just a MUCH, MUCH stronger dose of warfarin, especially when taking in consideration the LD50 of something the weight of a mouse.
"Everything in moderation", grandpa always said! :waving:

ICT Bill
01-05-2009, 09:50 PM
Don't forget to set out mice/rat bait packs in and around the stored bags of meal, especially if you know your shed / barn is prone to them.

I have heard this is an issue as well on properties that use the meal based products, it attracts rodents to the properties

We have had several people say that the dogs and others eat up the corn gluten meal before it gets a chance to do its thing. Fat squirrels

Kiril
01-05-2009, 10:42 PM
Those of you who have to adapt and utilize any available organic'c soil amending material's to accomplish your grow i commend you as well for taking a step in a more responsible direction then the chem approach. which is the goal,to not use synthetics

Perhaps, or perhaps not. Consider this. Is it right to destroy one piece of land in order to nurture another? In my mind, one of the goals of sustainable practices is to stop using products that are not sustainable, not merely shift the location of non-sustainable product use. The only use of grain meals and other food quality products (direct or indirect) that might be acceptable in the short term is for growing food on a site by site basis, but most certainly NOT for maintaining lawns and landscapes.

If people/communities are going to continue to use/maintain regionally inappropriate landscapes, then they might consider getting together as a community and provide locally generated compost for free to homeowners.

ICT Bill
01-05-2009, 11:40 PM
Perhaps, or perhaps not. Consider this. Is it right to destroy one piece of land in order to nurture another? In my mind, one of the goals of sustainable practices is to stop using products that are not sustainable, not merely shift the location of non-sustainable product use. The only use of grain meals and other food quality products (direct or indirect) that might be acceptable in the short term is for growing food on a site by site basis, but most certainly NOT for maintaining lawns and landscapes.

If people/communities are going to continue to use/maintain regionally inappropriate landscapes, then they might consider getting together as a community and provide locally generated compost for free to homeowners.

I like the way you think
I have tried this equation many times in front of counties and cities...........bottom line 2+2= break even for the county or city. I do have an interesting article to send your way though, sustainable bio-char. Its a big investment but it really makes sense

Very sustainable

Mr. Nice
01-06-2009, 07:35 AM
If people/communities are going to continue to use/maintain regionally inappropriate landscapes, then they might consider getting together as a community and provide locally generated compost for free to homeowners.

I totally agree with you,

treegal1
01-06-2009, 11:43 AM
Perhaps, or perhaps not. Consider this. Is it right to destroy one piece of land in order to nurture another? In my mind, one of the goals of sustainable practices is to stop using products that are not sustainable, not merely shift the location of non-sustainable product use. The only use of grain meals and other food quality products (direct or indirect) that might be acceptable in the short term is for growing food on a site by site basis, but most certainly NOT for maintaining lawns and landscapes.

my issue is the fuel that it takes, it all comes back to fuel, why is chem fert bad? FUEL, why is grain a waste?FUEL.

I think that the amount of fuel is the driving force, issue.

Kiril
01-06-2009, 11:52 AM
my issue is the fuel that it takes, it all comes back to fuel, why is chem fert bad? FUEL, why is grain a waste?FUEL.

I think that the amount of fuel is the driving force, issue.

Fuel is only a part of the costs associated with it, but is certainly a big one when you consider all the inputs that require fuel. However, even if you remove the fuel issue through use of sustainable sources, you still have the negative impacts on land/environment associated with agriculture.

Marcos
01-06-2009, 11:56 AM
Originally Posted by Marcos
Don't forget to set out mice/rat bait packs in and around the stored bags of meal, especially if you know your shed / barn is prone to them.


I have heard this is an issue as well on properties that use the meal based products, it attracts rodents to the properties

We have had several people say that the dogs and others eat up the corn gluten meal before it gets a chance to do its thing. Fat squirrels

Well, you can always go with this ol' Amish trick my dad used to do with our horse's grain, when he stored the "winter's leftovers" during the summertime:

Hang each bag individually from ropes from the barn ceiling, maybe 6 feet apart, with a large slick aluminum washer-plate fastened perfectly horizontal, about 1/2 way down each rope.
Absolutely guaranteed to keep 'em out! :waving:


We used to collect hog-nosed snakes from the fields, and throw them in the barn's hayloft to help keep the mice down.
We never could count on the wild cats to stay in our barn for some reason...(probably because my dad despised cats! :laugh:)

treegal1
01-06-2009, 01:27 PM
@ kiril,

yes the land impacts still are troubling to say the least, however they can be minimized with good practices and careful use.some farms make a 12 to 1 yield as opposed to a 1 to 12. and if they harvest carbon at the same time. good stuff......maybe even positive one day.......

RATS and MICE??

try taking a 5 gallon bucket and put a small hole in the lid(2 inch) float some grain or dog food on top of about 3 gallons of water ( so that the rodents cant see the water) after they get in the bucket they dont get out and drown, and you can get it to work on multiple rodents at a time. then its off to the compost pile for a good bake in the hot parts for a few..............

Mr. Nice
01-06-2009, 02:39 PM
I agree if you are going to put energy and resources into growing a crop that is intended for food and is difficult to grow or requires often many INPUTS of different unsustainable, less then environmentally friendly energy's for it's production.
That putting it our lawns and gardens might be a step back wards in the bigger picture.

Only if there was a plant that needed basically no inputs and can grow anywhere in the world successfully with out chem's and ferts. Only if this plant had one of the highest fatty acid/protein amounts of any plant seed:) as well as 50000 other uses that are sustainable IMHO

do you'all think that would help or be ok to use?

i wonder if our ancestors where blessed with such a versatile useful plant:nono::usflag:

provide all of America's energy needs. 1
Hemp is Earth's number-one biomass resource; it is capable of producing 10 tons per acre in four months. 1
Biomass can be converted to methane, methanol, or gasoline at a cost comparable to petroleum, and hemp is much better for the environment. Pyrolysis (charcoalizing), or biochemical composting are two methods of turning hemp into fuel.2
Hemp can produce 10 times more methanol than corn.
Hemp fuel burns clean. Petroleum causes acid rain due to sulfur pollution.
The use of hemp fuel does not contribute to global warming.
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Food:
Hemp seed can be pressed into a nutritious oil, which contains the highest amount of fatty acids in the plant kingdom. Essential oils are responsible for our immune system responses, and clear the arteries of cholesterol and plaque.2
The byproduct of pressing the oil from hemp seed is high quality protein seed cake. It can be sprouted (malted) or ground and baked into cakes, breads, and casseroles. Hemp seed protein is one of mankind's finest, most complete and available-to-the-body vegetable proteins. 2
Hemp seed was the world's number one wild and domestic bird seed until the 1937 Marijuana prohibition law. Four million pounds of hemp seed for songbirds were sold at retail in the U.S. in 1937. Birds will pick hemp seeds out and eat them first from a pile of mixed seed. Birds in the wild live longer and breed more with hemp seed in their diet, using the oil for the feathers and their overall health. 2
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Fiber:
Hemp is the oldest cultivated fiber plant in the world.
Low-THC fiber hemp varieties developed by the French and others have been available for over 20 years. It is impossible to get high from fiber hemp. Over 600,000 acres of hemp is grown worldwide with no drug misuse problem.
One acre of hemp can produce as much usable fiber as 4 acres of trees or two acres of cotton.
Trees cut down to make paper take 50 to 500 years to grow, while hemp can be cultivated in as little as 100 days and can yield 4 times more paper over a 20 year period.
Until 1883, from 75-90% of all paper in the world was made with cannabis hemp fiber including that for books, Bibles, maps, paper money, stocks and bonds, newspapers, etc. 2
Hemp paper is longer lasting than wood pulp, stronger, acid-free, and chlorine free. (Chlorine is estimated to cause up to 10% of all Cancers.) 2
Hemp paper can be recycled 7 times, wood pulp 4 times.
If the hemp pulp paper process reported by the USDA in 1916, were legal today it would soon replace 70% of all wood paper products. 2
Rag paper containing hemp fiber is the highest quality and longest lasting paper ever made. It can be torn when wet, but returns to its full strength when dry. Barring extreme conditions, rag paper remains stable for centuries. 2
Hemp particle board may be up to 2 times stronger than wood particleboard and holds nails better.
Hemp is softer, warmer, more water absorbent, has three times the tensile strength, and is many times more durable than cotton. Hemp production uses less chemicals than cotton. 2
From 70-90% of all rope, twine, and cordage was made from hemp until 1937. 2
A strong lustrous fiber; hemp withstands heat, mildew, insects, and is not damaged by light. Oil paintings on hemp and/or flax canvas have stayed in fine condition for centuries. 2
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Medicine:
Deaths from marijuana use: 0
From 1842 through the 1880s, extremely strong marijuana (then known as cannabis extractums), hashish extracts, tinctures, and elixirs were routinely the second and third most-used medicines in America for humans (from birth through old age). These extracts were also used in veterinary medicine until the 1920s and longer. 2
For at least 3,000 years prior to 1842 widely varying marijuana extracts (bud, leaves, roots, etc.) were the most commonly used real medicines in the world for the majority of mankind's illnesses. 2
The U.S. Pharmacopoeia indicated cannabis should be used for treating such ailments as fatigue, fits of coughing, rheumatism, asthma, delirium tremens, migraine headaches, and the cramps and depressions associated with menstruation. 3
In this century, cannabis research has demonstrated therapeutic value and complete safety in the treatment of many health problems including asthma, glaucoma, nausea, tumors, epilepsy, infection, stress, migraines, anorexia, depression, rheumatism, arthritis, and possibly herpes. 3
Deaths from aspirin (U.S. per year): 180 - 1,000 +
Deaths from legal drugs (U.S. per year) at doses used for prevention, diagnosis, or therapy: 106,000
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Industry:
Almost any product that can be made from wood, cotton, or petroleum (including plastics) can be made from hemp. There are more than 25,000 known uses for hemp.
For thousands of years virtually all good paints and varnishes were made with hemp seed oil and/or linseed oil. 2
Hemp stems are 80% hurds (pulp by-product after the hemp fiber is removed from the plant). Hemp hurds are 77% cellulose - a primary chemical feed stock (industrial raw material) used in the production of chemicals, plastics, and fibers. Depending on which U.S. agricultural report is correct, an acre of full grown hemp plants can sustainably provide from four to 50 or even 100 times the cellulose found in cornstalks, kenaf, or sugar cane (the planet's next highest annual cellulose plants). 2
One acre of hemp produces as much cellulose fiber pulp as 4.1 acres of trees, making hemp a perfect material to replace trees for pressed board, particle board, and concrete construction molds. 2
Heating and compressing plant fibers can create practical, inexpensive, fire-resistant construction materials with excellent thermal and sound-insulating qualities. These strong plant fiber construction materials could replace dry wall and wood paneling. William B. Conde of Conde's Redwood Lumber, Inc. near Eugene, Oregon, in conjunction with Washington State University (1991-1993), has demonstrated the superior strength, flexibility, and economy of hemp composite building materials compared to wood fiber, even as beams. 2
Isochanvre, a rediscovered French building material made from hemp hurds mixed with lime petrifies into a mineral state and lasts for many centuries. Archeologists have found a bridge in the south of France from the Merovingian period (500-751 A.D.), built with this process. 2
Hemp has been used throughout history for carpet backing. Hemp fiber has potential in the manufacture of strong, rot resistant carpeting - eliminating the poisonous fumes of burning synthetic materials in a house or commercial fire, along with allergic reactions associated with new synthetic carpeting. 2
Plastic plumbing pipe (PVC pipes) can be manufactured using renewable hemp cellulose as the chemical feed stocks, replacing non-renewable coal or petroleum based chemical feed stocks. 2
In 1941 Henry Ford built a plastic car made of fiber from hemp and wheat straw. Hemp plastic is biodegradable, synthetic plastic is not.
top

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
References:
Jack Herer.com Economics: Energy, Environment, and Commerce
Jack Herer.com Uses of Hemp
Jack Herer.com Therapeutic Uses of Hemp


Contact

Top

treegal1
01-06-2009, 02:58 PM
OMG not another rope smoker..............

how about algae or some other MORE useful plant???

ROFL rope on my mind..............

JDUtah
01-06-2009, 03:02 PM
Only if there was a plant that needed basically no inputs and can grow anywhere in the world successfully with out chem's and ferts. Only if this plant had one of the highest fatty acid/protein amounts of any plant seed:) as well as 50000 other uses that are sustainable IMHO

do you'all think that would help or be ok to use?

i wonder if our ancestors where blessed with such a versatile useful plant:nono::usflag:

provide all of America's energy needs. 1
Hemp is Earth's number-one biomass resource

Now we know why he is "Mr. Nice". :laugh:

I liked the old Charles, minus the regular anti-Bill comments.

NattyLawn
01-06-2009, 03:28 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
References:
Jack Herer.com Economics: Energy, Environment, and Commerce
Jack Herer.com Uses of Hemp
Jack Herer.com Therapeutic Uses of Hemp


Is Jack Herer still alive?

Mr. Nice
01-06-2009, 03:38 PM
OMG not another rope smoker..............

how about algae or some other MORE useful plant???

ROFL rope on my mind..............


I wouldn't recommend smoking rope.

I agree algae technology is the future,In certain respects, and indeed there are many other plants are quite useful as well. but until then, putting a seed in the ground and letting it grow, Is very low tech way to produce materials.


It would be fullish to denie the usefulness's or it's quality's that separate it from other plants, and I'm not talking about it's medicinal qualities.

Let me ask you this on that front about other plants.

What plant that has as Large a area where can be cultivated?

Has a cellulose and protein content like that?

As easy to grow?

Grows as fast?

Has as many uses overall?

And comes from a seed you can plant in the ground anywhere?

I respect your in site and open to all idea's

Mr. Nice
01-06-2009, 03:41 PM
Is Jack Herer still alive?

Yes, :usflag:

DUSTYCEDAR
01-06-2009, 03:56 PM
YEAH HEMP you would need to spend more on keeping it from growing legs and running off

JDUtah
01-06-2009, 05:21 PM
I respect your in site and open to all idea's

I wonder if Jack ever thought about the demand that a "high harvest" puts on the soil. The whole reason synthetic/organic fertilizers are used is to restore nutrients that were harvested and taken out of the soil. Using an aggressive 'soil mining' plant like hemp appears to be will serve to deplete the soil more quickly. The fact that it would be used as fuel etc. brings one to question when the soil will become useless without our restoring nutrients?

The addition of nutrients is eventually necessary in any harvested field. Would the use of hemp really solve our problems or just divert them? I suspect we would find ourselves in the same boat as we are in now.

Wind, solar, and catalytic produced hydrogen (for fuel cells) on the other hand... now those are real sustainable forms of energy.

But that is just my .02

Mr. Nice
01-06-2009, 06:35 PM
"Hemp is of first necessity to the wealth & protection of the country." -Thomas Jefferson

"Make the most you can of the Indian Hemp seed and sow it everywhere." -President George Washington, 1794


A practical answer to America's farming, energy and environmental crises.

On June 12,1989, President Bush addressed his campaign promises to deal with the pollution problems long facing the United States.

He unveiled an ambitious plan to remove smog from California and the nation's most populous cities, as well as efforts to reduce acid rain pollution. Bush recommended auto makers be required to make methanol-powered cars for use in nine urban areas plagued by air pollution. Methanol is the simplest form of primary alcohol and is commonly called wood alcohol.

Bush called methanol "home-grown energy for America." He further proposed a 10 million ton reduction in sulfur dioxide emissions from coal-burning power plants; that's a 50% reduction over present standards. Sulfur dioxide is a major cause of acid rain, which kills 50,000 Americans and 5,000-10,000 Canadians yearly. (Brookhaven National Laboratory 1986)

William Reilly, chief of the Environmental Protection Agency, at a briefing before Bush's speech, estimated the cost of the plan would be between $14 billion and $19 billion a year after its full implementation at the turn of the century. Bush said, "Too many Americans continue to breathe dirty air, and political paralysis has plagued further progress against air pollution. We've seen enough of this stalemate. It's time to clear the air." Political paralysis seems to be a dominant trait in Washington in any given decade, but what did he mean by "stalemate'?

The root of this "stalemate" can be found in the concept of world energy resources. The industrial world currently runs on fossil fuel: natural gas, oil, and coal. Fossil fuel resources are non-renewable, being the end product of eons of natural decomposition of Earth's ancient biomass. Fossil fuels contain sulfur, which is the source of many of the aggravating environmental pollution problems threatening America.

Removing sulfur compounds from fossil fuels is a major expense to the energy producers. Also, burning fossil fuels releases "ancient" carbon dioxide, produced by primeval plant life eons ago, into the atmosphere causing the air we breathe to be over-burdened with CO2 increasing the danger of global warming and the greenhouse effect.

In the late 1800s, the fledgling petroleum industry aggressively competed with the established biomass-based energy industry in a effort to gain control of world energy production and distribution. Fossil fuel producers succeeded in their campaign to dominate energy production by making fuels and chemical feedstocks at lower prices than could be produced from biomass conversion. Now the pendulum is swinging against them.

It is likely that peak oil and gas production in the coterminous United States has been reached. The bulk total production of roughly 80% will be reached by the year 2000. Peak world production will occur about the same year.

The situation for recoverable coal, world wide, is more favorable. Peak production is estimated to happen shortly after the 2100. However, increasing numbers of Americans are unwilling to accept the escalating costs of environmental pollution and destruction associated with coal-fired power plant smokestack emissions and the land destruction resulting from coal mining.

If the pollution problems inherent with fossil fuel use are solved, the dollars and cents cost of this form of energy will continue to rise due to the dwindling availability of this non-renewable world resource. On the other hand, the dollar cost of energy production from biomass conversion will remain relatively constant because the world biomass resource is renewable on a yearly basis.

The point where the cost of producing energy from fossil fuels exceeds the cost of biomass fuels has been reached. With a few exceptions, energy from fossil fuels will cost the American taxpayer more money than the same amount of energy supplied through biomass conversion.

Biomass is the term used to describe all biologically produced matter. World production of biomass is estimated at 146 billion metric tons a year, mostly wild plant growth. Some farm crops and trees can produce up to 20 metric tons per acre of biomass a year. Types of algae and grasses may produce 50 metric tons per year.

Dried biomass has a heating value of 5000-8000 Btu/lb, with virtually no ash or sulfur produced during combustion. About 6% of contiguous United States land area put into cultivation for biomass could supply all current demands for oil and gas. And this production would not add any net carbon dioxide to the atmosphere. (Environmental Chemistry, Stanley E. Manahan, Willard Grant Press, 1984)

For its Mission Analysis study conducted for the U.S. Department of Energy in 1979, Stanford Research Institute (SRI) chose five types of biomass materials to investigate for energy conversion: woody plants, herbaceous plants (those that do not produce persistent woody material), aquatic plants, and manure. Herbaceous plants were divided into two categories: those with low moisture content and those with high moisture content.

Biomass conversion may be conducted on two broad pathways: chemical decomposition and biological digestion.

Thermochemical decomposition can be utilized for energy conversion of all five categories of biomass materials, but low moisture herbaceous (small grain field residues) and woody (wood industry wastes, and standing vegetation not suitable for lumber) are the most suitable.

Biological processes are essentially microbic digestion and fermentation. High moisture herbaceous plants (vegetables, sugar cane, sugar beet, corn, sorghum, cotton), marine crops and manure are most suitable for biological digestion.

Anaerobic digestion produces high and intermediate Btu gasses. High Btu gas is methane. Intermediate-Btu is methane mixed with carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide. Methane can be efficiently converted into methanol.

Fermentation produces ethyl and other alcohols, but this process is too costly in terms of cultivated land use and too inefficient in terms of alcohol production to feasibly supply enough fuel alcohol to power industrial society.

Pyrolysis is the thermochemical process that converts organic materials into usable fuels with high fuel-to-feed ratios, making it the most efficient process for biomass conversion, and the method most capable of competing and eventually replacing non-renewable fossil fuel resources.

The foundation on which this will be achieved is the emerging concept of "energy farming," wherein farmers grow and harvest crops that are converted into fuels.

Pyrolysis is the technique of applying high heat to organic matter (lignocellulosic materials) in the absence of air or in reduced air. The process can produce charcoal, condensable organic liquids (pyrolytic fuel oil), non-condensable gasses, acetic acid, acetone, and methanol. The process can be adjusted to favor charcoal, pyrolytic oil, gas, or methanol production with a 95.556 fuel-to-feed efficiency.

Chemical decomposition through pyrolysis is the same technology used to refine crude fossil fuel oil and coal. Biomass conversion by pyrolysis has many environmental and economic advantages over fossil fuels, but coal and oil production dominates because costs are kept lower by various means including government protection.

Pyrolysis has been used since the dawn of civilization. If some means is applied to collect the off-gasses (smoke), the process is called wood distillation. The ancient Egyptians practiced wood distillation by collecting tars and pyroligneous acid for use in their embalming industry.

Pyrolysis of wood to produce charcoal was a major industry in the 1800s, supplying the fuel for the industrial revolution, until it was replaced by coal.

In the late 19th Century and early 20th Century wood distillation was still profitable for producing soluble tar, pitch, creosote oil, chemicals, and non-condensable gasses often used to heat boilers at the facility.

The wood distillation industry declined in the 1930s due to the advent of the petrochemical industry and its lower priced products. However, pyrolysis of wood to produce charcoal for the charcoal briquette market and activated carbon for purification systems is still practiced in the U.S.

The wood distillation industry used pyrolytic reactors in a process called destructive distillation. The operation was carried out in a fractionating column (a tall still) under high heat (from 1000-1700įF). Charcoal was the main fuel product and methanol production was about 1% to 2% of volume or 6 gallons per ton. This traditional method was replaced by the synthetic process developed in 1927.

The synthetic process utilizes a pyrolytic reactor operating as a gasifier by injecting air or pure oxygen into the reactor core to completely burn the biomass to ash. The energy contained in the biomass is released in the gasses formed. After purification the syngas, hydrogen and carbon monoxide in a 2 to 1 ratio, is altered by catalysts under high pressure and heat, to form methanol. This method will produce 100 gallons of methanol per ton of feed material.

Methanol-powered automobiles and reduced emissions from coal-fired power plants can become a reality by using biomass derived fuels. The foundation upon which this will be achieved is the emerging concept of energy farming, wherein farmers grow and harvest crops that are converted into fuels. Energy farming can save American family farms and turn the American heartland into a prosperous source of clean renewable energy production.

Pyrolysis is the most efficient process for biomass conversion into fuels that can replace all fossil fuel products. . . When farmers can grow hemp for biomass they will make a profit energy farming.

Universities, government agencies, and private firms have conducted studies looking into the feasibility of growing biomass at low cost to make fuels at affordable prices, but the most promising plant species was never considered because it is prohibited. Instead emphasis has centered around utilizing waste products: agricultural residues after harvest, forestry wastes from the timber and pulp wood industry, and municipal wastes. All of these combined cannot produce enough fuel to satisfy the needs of industry or the American consumer's automobile. Yet biomass conversion to fuel has been proven economically feasible in laboratory tests and by continuous operation of pilot plants in field tests since 1973.

Farmers should be encouraged to grow energy crops capable of producing 10 tons per acre in 90-120 days. The crop has to be naturally high in cellulose. It must grow in all climactic zones in America. And it should not compete with food production for the most fertile land. It could be grown in rotation with food crops or on marginal land where other crop production isn't profitable.

At congressional hearings on alternative fuels held in 1978, Dr. George T. Tsao, professor of chemical engineering and food and agricultural engineering, director of laboratory of renewable resources, Purdue University, said $30 per ton for biomass delivered to the fuel conversion plant is an adequate base price for the energy farmer. The price of $30/ton has also been suggested by other researchers.

Both Dr. Serge Gratch, director chemical sciences laboratory, Ford Motor Co. and Dr. Joseph M. Colucci, director fuels and lubricants General Motors Research Laboratories testified their companies were willing, especially Ford, to make cars that would run on methanol fuel. The scientists said it would take several years to tool up factories to make methanol powered autos. They said industry could solve the problems associated with methanol as fuel. And it would take about the same amount of time for the energy industry to build methanol production facilities.

So why don't we have methanol at the filling station? The scientists said the problem was government certification under the Clean Air Act required automobile manufacturers meet standards set by the EPA based on fuels available on a national level. Since methanol fuel standards had not been set, the car makers couldn't make the new fleet until the methanol fuel was available at the pump. This catch-22 situation continues today. Government is unwilling to subsidize pilot energy farms and biomass refinery construction because fossil fuel producers control the energy industry.

Hemp is the only biomass resource capable of making America energy independent. The government suspended marijuana prohibition during WWII. It's time to do it again.

The way to end this political stalemate is to start literally from the ground up. When farmers can grow hemp for biomass they will make a profit energy farming. Then it will not take long to get 6% of continental American land mass into cultivation for biomass fuels -- enough to replace our economy's dependence on fossil fuels. And as the energy crop grows it takes in CO2 from the air; when it is burned the CO2 is returned to the air, creating a balanced system. We will no longer be increasing the CO2 content in the atmosphere. The threat of global greenhouse warming and adverse climatic change will diminish.

This energy crop can be harvested with equipment readily available. It can be "cubed" by modifying hay cubing equipment. This method condenses the bulk, reducing trucking costs from the field to the pyrolysis facility.

Sixty-eight percent of the energy in the raw biomass is contained in the charcoal and fuel oils made at the facility. The charcoal has the same heating value in Btu as coal, with virtually no sulfur to pollute the atmosphere. The pyrolytic fuel oil has similar properties to no. 2 and no. 6 fuel oil. The remaining energy is in noncondensible gases that are used to co-generate steam and electricity.

To keep costs down pyrolysis reactors need to be located within a 50 mile radius from the energy farms. This necessity will bring life back to our small towns by providing jobs locally. The pyrolysis facilities will run three shifts a day.

Charcoal and fuel oil can be "exported" from the rural small town in the agricultural community to the large metropolitan areas to fuel the giant power plants generating electricity. When these utility companies use charcoal instead of coal, the problems of acid rain will begin to disappear.

The charcoal can be transported economically by rail to all urban area power plants. The fuel oil can be transported economically by truck creating more jobs for Americans.

When this energy system is on line producing a steady supply of fuel for utility companies, it will have established itself in commerce. Then it will be more feasible to build the complex syngas systems to produce methanol from biomass, or make synthetic gasoline from methanol by adding the Mobil Co. process equipment to the gasifier.

To accomplish this goal of clean energy independence in America we must demand an end to hemp prohibition, so American farmers can grow this energy crop. Our government foolishly outlawed it in 1938.

Hemp is the world's most versatile plant. It can yield 10 tons per acre in four months. Hemp contains 80% cellulose; wood produces 60% cellulose. Hemp is drought resistant making it an ideal crop in the dry western regions of the country.

Hemp is the only biomass resource capable of making America energy independent. Remember that in 10 years, by the year 2000, America will have exhausted 80% of her petroleum reserves. Will we then go to war with the Arabs for the privilege of driving our cars; will we stripmine our land for coal and poison the air we breathe to drive our autos an additional 100 years; will we raze our forests for our energy needs?

During the Second World War, the federal government faced a real economic emergency when our supply of hemp was cut off by the Japanese. The federal government responded to the emergency by suspending marijuana prohibition. Patriotic American farmers were encouraged to apply for a license to grow hemp. They responded enthusiastically and grew 375,000 acres of hemp in 1943.

The argument against undertaking this massive hemp production effort today does not hold up to scrutiny.

Hemp grown for biomass makes very poor grade marijuana. The 20 to 40 million Americans who smoke marijuana would loath to smoke hemp grown for biomass, so no one could make a dime selling a farmers hemp biomass crop as marijuana.

It is time for the federal government to once again respond to our current economic emergency by utilizing the same procedure used in WWII to permit our farmers to grow American hemp so this mighty nation can once again become energy independent and smog free.

by Lynn Osburn


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
References:
U.S. Energy Atlas, David J. Cuff & William J. Young, FreePress/McMillan Publishing Co., NY, 1980
Progress in Biomass Conversion Vol. 1, Kyosti V. Sartanen & David Tillmall editors, Academic Press, NY, 1979
Brown's Second Alcohol Fuel Cookbook, Michael H. Brown (Senate hearing transcripts)
Environmental Chemistry, (4th edition), Stanley E. Manahan, P.W.S. Publishers, Boston, MA, 1979
Hemp for Victory, U.S. government documentary film, USDA 1942-43

phasthound
01-06-2009, 06:42 PM
How about starting a new thread for this? :sleeping:

treegal1
01-06-2009, 06:56 PM
Let me ask you this on that front about other plants.

What plant that has as Large a area where can be cultivated?

Has a cellulose and protein content like that?

As easy to grow?

Grows as fast?

Has as many uses overall?

And comes from a seed you can plant in the ground anywhere?

I respect your in site and open to all idea's

OMG you missed the whole point that one plant will in almost all cases ruin the ecosystem, and standard farming is also to bear some of the responsibility for the damage done.

Barry is correct that that this dope talk is putting some of the oldtimers to bed:laugh:

Mr. Nice
01-07-2009, 12:33 AM
I think there is a saying, Right plant for the right place..

With all do respect i don't think I'm missing the point or trying to imply that only one plant is the answer to all our problems, just that perhaps this plant, HEMP not DOPE could
possibly help us diminish the economic and pollution burden of clothing,feeding,fueling,ete the human race with out so many environmental problems that are associated with some of the other strategies we are using to meet these needs at the moment.

The problem as I see it is people hear the word HEMP and think reefer maddness, the dreaded marijuana or Rope smokers I think someone said? I believe our ancestors proved this plants value and worth.

If the old timers are getting put to sleep perhaps they should get some or help in the discussion.

Since the true history of hemp is not taught to us basically anywhere in the world any more, most don't know of it's value or history?

And as always I'm open to all views to how some of our problems on earth
can be fixed and what material's can be used to help us grow more healthier landscapes with out as much pollution.

treegal1
01-07-2009, 12:50 AM
ok so I will bite, what species of Cannabis are we talking about??? is there not just 3 Species???Cannabis plants produce a unique family of terpeno-phenolic compounds called cannabinoids, which produce the "high" one experiences from smoking marijuana. The two cannabinoids usually produced in greatest abundance are cannabidiol (CBD) and/or Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), but only THC is psychoactive. Since the early 1970s, Cannabis plants have been categorized by their chemical phenotype or "chemotype," based on the overall amount of THC produced, and on the ratio of THC to CBD.Although overall cannabinoid production is influenced by environmental factors, the THC/CBD ratio is genetically determined and remains fixed throughout the life of a plant. Non-drug plants produce relatively low levels of THC and high levels of CBD, while drug plants produce high levels of THC and low levels of CBD. When plants of these two chemotypes cross-pollinate, the plants in the first filial (F1) generation have an intermediate chemotype and produce similar amounts of CBD and THC. Female plants of this chemotype may produce enough THC to be utilized for drug production..........................

ROPE SMOKERS............

treegal1
01-07-2009, 12:55 AM
I will say this, that if taxed it may help the economy, then again so would crack...................

and this part is really bad
On June 12,1989, President Bush addressed his campaign promises to deal with the pollution problems long facing the United States.

He unveiled an ambitious plan to remove smog from California and the nation's most populous cities, as well as efforts to reduce acid rain pollution. Bush recommended auto makers be required to make methanol-powered cars for use in nine urban areas plagued by air pollution. Methanol is the simplest form of primary alcohol and is commonly called wood alcohol.

I think I listened to a DR I story that went like this, " if we had let them GMO this bug it could have wiped out the whole forest on all of earth in just years" or something like that, it was at a tilth producer speech.

JDUtah
01-07-2009, 01:09 AM
I think there is a saying, Right plant for the right place..

With all do respect i don't think I'm missing the point or trying to imply that only one plant is the answer to all our problems, just that perhaps this plant, HEMP not DOPE could
possibly help us diminish the economic and pollution burden of clothing,feeding,fueling,ete the human race with out so many environmental problems that are associated with some of the other strategies we are using to meet these needs at the moment.

The problem as I see it is people hear the word HEMP and think reefer maddness, the dreaded marijuana or Rope smokers I think someone said? I believe our ancestors proved this plants value and worth.

If the old timers are getting put to sleep perhaps they should get some or help in the discussion.

Since the true history of hemp is not taught to us basically anywhere in the world any more, most don't know of it's value or history?

And as always I'm open to all views to how some of our problems on earth
can be fixed and what material's can be used to help us grow more healthier landscapes with out as much pollution.

Charles meet Eric and fuse with Mr. Rogers = Oy.

Kiril
01-07-2009, 01:28 AM
just that perhaps this plant, HEMP not DOPE could
possibly help us diminish the economic and pollution burden of clothing,feeding,fueling,ete the human race with out so many environmental problems that are associated with some of the other strategies we are using to meet these needs at the moment.

I can go for clothing and food, NOT fuel, and the problems that exist now with large scale agriculture, will still exist.

On another note, I see the cut and paste warriors are out in full strength.

treegal1
01-07-2009, 01:28 AM
Oy?? Yiddish in Utah

yes its cut and paste, why waste the time.........with 27 letters its all cut and paste....

Mr. Nice
01-07-2009, 01:39 AM
Tree,

You are are farmer, and realize how plants can hybridize through wild pollination.
Is that a bad thing? he he he, JK. On a serious note as long as the seed stock is monitored or refreshed I see little problem's with resulting generations being more
potent in content with delta 9 thc. Comparing the potent form of cannabis to crack
IMO shows lack of understanding. Show me one time thc killed someone?
Problem with medicinal cannabis today is lack of quality that is having any possible bad side affect's on people beside's what the law can do to you in possession of it.
those are the only REAL negatives about it.

YES the medicinal stains of cannabis should be taxed but the industrial HEMP is to valuable to suppress like that and should be subsidized IMO,though it would bring in more revenue's for our country as well as create more jobs for people,

Now back to Hemp,

do you think it has a place to help offset logging for paper production, is that not reason enough to grow it?

Mr. Nice
01-07-2009, 01:50 AM
I can go for clothing and food, NOT fuel, and the problems that exist now with large scale agriculture, will still exist.


Clothing and food is a good place to start.

Now lets work on how do you change the mind set of main stream farming to a sustainable practice.

I wonder what we did before synthetics?

treegal1
01-07-2009, 02:03 AM
yes ALL plants should be allowed and grown with out ANY Prohibition, same with NATURAL organisms.

sure hemp bamboo, there are tons of plants that grow fast and can be used, maybe bushophia, or Brazilian pepper????

but call a spade a spade, 99% of pro rope folks I have known hide smoke behind hemp, go ahead and say it aint so. and the cloth that it makes is a little hard for me. fuel is best IMO done with algae. fert try peanuts.

now to the laws!! OMG WTF, why is only the start. well lets see some racist bigots that wanted to stop a culture and redirect the "normal" systems of agriculture to better meet the needs of a tax based system of government. ( see kiril no cut and paste) to better there needs??? sounds great, until you take away hemp and tea tree oil and neem and BT and salt and meat and beer. i saw this in old news reels from the old days but could not understand the captions as they were in German, looked like a great speech from a nice fellow named Hitler. until the death camps and post 911 anti terrorist "acts" or "BILLS" get to you. I mean damn I cant even go south of my home 300 mile with out committing a crime, or is that me as a hostage of my own government. and that word , GOVERNMENT, A compulsory territorial monopolist of protection and jurisdiction equipped with the power to tax without unanimous consent.

treegal1
01-07-2009, 02:11 AM
Clothing and food is a good place to start.

Now lets work on how do you change the mind set of main stream farming to a sustainable practice.

I wonder what we did before synthetics?

mostly took a crap in the bean field same as every other animal, maybe there was a good amount of bio mass and organic matter, maybe some of the one crop practices are to blame. I am growing good to great crops with local only waste streams, proper balance. and working on carbon negative fuel......not my rope. maybe hunter gather works for you, wild game???

Kiril
01-07-2009, 02:16 AM
Clothing and food is a good place to start.

Now lets work on how do you change the mind set of main stream farming to a sustainable practice.

I wonder what we did before synthetics?

The problem is, large scale ag is not sustainable. Certainly there have been significant steps in the direction of making it more sustainable, but will we ever get there? The problem isn't so much with what we grow, it is with how much is needed .... which leads to population.

What did we do before synthetics? We didn't have 6 billion (and rising) people to feed.

You want a permanent solution to the problem, reduce the population.

treegal1
01-07-2009, 02:22 AM
You want a permanent solution to the problem, reduce the population

I am not even going there :laugh:

Mr. Nice
01-07-2009, 02:40 AM
sure hemp bamboo, there are tons of plants that grow fast and can be used, maybe bushophia, or Brazilian pepper????

but call a spade a spade, 99% of pro rope folks I have known hide smoke behind hemp, go ahead and say it aint so. and the cloth that it makes is a little hard for me. fuel is best IMO done with algae. fert try peanuts.

.

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm sure our forefathers weren't hiding "smoke"
behind hemp? or Maybe that's why they were the revolutionary type's?

I agree with you there are other plants to use, but the plants you named
do not have as much of a range to grow and don't process all the same qualities.
I not hear to say hemp is the end all thing to grow. We should utilize all plants and their many uses but the fact remains, It has untapped value
to us all.

If hemp fabric is too tough for your taste, try a blended product with cotton in it, it will last longer then the cotton alone while still being soft enough
for you gentle spirit.

heritage
01-07-2009, 10:01 AM
WHERE DO YOU GET SUPPLIES @ A GOOD PRICE?

Pete

dishboy
01-07-2009, 10:24 AM
WHERE DO YOU GET SUPPLIES @ A GOOD PRICE?

Pete

The feed store!

treegal1
01-07-2009, 10:33 AM
WHERE DO YOU GET SUPPLIES @ A GOOD PRICE?

Pete

Pete, let me say slowly, the dump the horse farm the side of the road, grow your own fert and worms, wait I dare ya ask berry how a pallet of worm casts cost. then think about a 4x8 worm bed??? fish market maybe a saw mill or green waste processor, how about a dairy, got to have milk some where over there. yes maybe the feed store, chicken feed is great just read the label and go feed your lawn birds. if you want to waste the meals, or get some foul and feed them that and then use the used feed. maybe plant a clover or legume or just add some live worms to the soil, thats long term.

my tea costs me 2 cents a gallon now..............

Smallaxe
01-07-2009, 11:24 AM
Originally Posted by Smallaxe
Of course I am also going back to the misquito issue - and the idea - that sustainable often times equal "neglect" and vermin living under your doorstep.
Not a fan of the 'Utilitarian philosophy' that is called 'Sustainable'

Not really sure where this comes from, nor am I entirely sure I follow the thinking either.

When it is insisted upon that 'grass kills the planet' by the "sustainable POV" then here in Wisco we can't grow grass, only the pre approved sustainable natural plants.

I do not live in the concrete jungle. I tend a larger acreage garden of cattle and timber to sustain people. Help people survive in a healthier and happier environment. If I do not change the environment around my house into a 'civilized' environment - though it be unsustainable - I am over run with vermin.

Lawn is a very important part of that security from vermin and bugs. It does not "need" npk or water - it only needs to be mowed to be effective in vermin control.
No one has yet gone on record and say whether or not that lawn is sustainable. If that is decided by the 'man' to be unsustainable and therefore not authorized - then we have become a fascist , utilitarian state.

There has already been many comments about national cooperation. Think about it. :)

Kiril
01-07-2009, 11:42 AM
No one has yet gone on record and say whether or not that lawn is sustainable. If that is decided by the 'man' to be unsustainable and therefore not authorized - then we have become a fascist , utilitarian state.

There has already been many comments about national cooperation. Think about it. :)

Well then, I guess we are a fascist, utilitarian state (no argument from me) because some areas have already pretty much said "no turf" through water restrictions, and "no turf" mow strips in municipal code.

Certainly your turf is closer to sustainable than most, but not everyone is so lucky. If you mow your turf using a push reel mower, then you are even closer, and hats off to you. What percentage of turf in this country do you think your lawn represents?

Also, in all fairness you need to distinguish between high input turf type grass, and native grasses that require almost no inputs.

Tim Wilson
01-07-2009, 04:58 PM
Barry,

I did start a new thread for the hemp subject.
Treegal,

I'm one oldtimer who is not bored by new subjects.

phasthound
01-07-2009, 07:14 PM
WHERE DO YOU GET SUPPLIES @ A GOOD PRICE?

Pete

Pete, I'm glad you asked. Tech Terra Organics!! :)

Stop by my booth next week at the NJNLA Trade Show. :waving:

phasthound
01-07-2009, 07:16 PM
Barry,

I did start a new thread for the hemp subject.
Treegal,

I'm one oldtimer who is not bored by new subjects.

Thanks Tim, much appreciated. :)

heritage
01-07-2009, 07:25 PM
Pete, let me say slowly, the dump the horse farm the side of the road, grow your own fert and worms, wait I dare ya ask berry how a pallet of worm casts cost. then think about a 4x8 worm bed??? fish market maybe a saw mill or green waste processor, how about a dairy, got to have milk some where over there. yes maybe the feed store, chicken feed is great just read the label and go feed your lawn birds. if you want to waste the meals, or get some foul and feed them that and then use the used feed. maybe plant a clover or legume or just add some live worms to the soil, thats long term.

my tea costs me 2 cents a gallon now..............


TreeGal,

Thanks for the feedback. Perhaps I should plan a few acre farm as my next big plan, after the house is all paid off.

I think I will have a lot of Pigeons and Chickens/Pheasants too.

And a nice CT Brewer as well.

Also will look into how one raises earthworms for their castings.

It seems the Amish only 100 miles West of me have it all figured already as do you.

Why the resistance to switch for so many??? Smell? Labor?

Amish grow NICE Crops!

Pete

heritage
01-07-2009, 07:27 PM
Pete, I'm glad you asked. Tech Terra Organics!! :)

Stop by my booth next week at the NJNLA Trade Show. :waving:

Sounds good Barry.

I will look up the show and location.

Pete

phasthound
01-07-2009, 07:33 PM
TreeGal,

Thanks for the feedback. Perhaps I should plan a few acre farm as my next big plan, after the house is all paid off.

I think I will have a lot of Pigeons and Chickens/Pheasants too.

And a nice CT Brewer as well.

Also will look into how one raises earthworms for their castings.

It seems the Amish only 100 miles West of me have it all figured already as do you.

Why the resistance to switch for so many??? Smell? Labor?

Amish grow NICE Crops!

Pete

Pete, I had the privilege to visit an Amish farm last summer that made compost tea for their crops. Also meet Leon Hussey.

It was a great day!

phasthound
01-07-2009, 07:36 PM
Sounds good Barry.

I will look up the show and location.

Pete

Next Wed & Thurs at the Garden State Exhibit Center in Somerset.
http://co.monmouth.nj.us/documents/57/cjtoi%2009%20njnla.pdf

Looking forward to meeting you. :waving:

heritage
01-07-2009, 07:51 PM
Next Wed & Thurs at the Garden State Exhibit Center in Somerset.
http://co.monmouth.nj.us/documents/57/cjtoi%2009%20njnla.pdf

Looking forward to meeting you. :waving:

OK Barry. :)

Thanks for the link too!

Pete

treegal1
01-07-2009, 10:20 PM
TreeGal,

Thanks for the feedback. Perhaps I should plan a few acre farm as my next big plan, after the house is all paid off.

I think I will have a lot of Pigeons and Chickens/Pheasants too.

And a nice CT Brewer as well.

Also will look into how one raises earthworms for their castings.

It seems the Amish only 100 miles West of me have it all figured already as do you.

Why the resistance to switch for so many??? Smell? Labor?

Amish grow NICE Crops!

Petejust so you know I started out in a 10 x 15 room with no ac or any big$ tools just some smarts, not much, and a will to do it the best I can........

heritage
01-07-2009, 10:49 PM
just so you know I started out in a 10 x 15 room with no ac or any big$ tools just some smarts, not much, and a will to do it the best I can........

I especially like the smarts part.

Seems to make the playing field a little easier if you know what I mean.

Thanks for the feedback.

I have a cellar and will do some homework :)

Pete

Smallaxe
01-08-2009, 09:30 AM
Well then, I guess we are a fascist, utilitarian state (no argument from me) because some areas have already pretty much said "no turf" through water restrictions, and "no turf" mow strips in municipal code.

Certainly your turf is closer to sustainable than most, but not everyone is so lucky. If you mow your turf using a push reel mower, then you are even closer, and hats off to you. What percentage of turf in this country do you think your lawn represents?

Also, in all fairness you need to distinguish between high input turf type grass, and native grasses that require almost no inputs.

I don't know if we have any real prairie grasses indigenous to this part of the north woods. Natuaralized Poa seems to be the dominant natural wild grass that takes over open ground.
We can tell how well it survives on it own with rain only by seeing how green it is in the ditches. Quack grass is another non-indigenous import that dominates the ditches and neglected fields.

I am out in rural America and the are only a few city slickers that move out here that fertilize and weed kill their lawns. They are smarter and more sophisticated than the local yokels and their lawn has to show that.
The amusing part is - these are the same people who want to pass the sustainable landscape rules out here that they had in their city. :laugh:

Kiril
01-08-2009, 10:04 AM
I don't know if we have any real prairie grasses indigenous to this part of the north woods.

To name a few native grasses in WI.


http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=BODA2&mapType=nativity&photoID=buda_002_ahp.tif

http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=FERU2&mapType=nativity&photoID=feru2_003_avp.tif

http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=BOGR2&mapType=nativity&photoID=bogr2_002_avp.tif

http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=SCSCD&mapType=nativity&photoID=andi8_001_avd.tif

http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=BOCU&mapType=nativity&photoID=bocu_002_avp.tif

http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=SONU2&mapType=nativity&photoID=sonu2_004_avp.tif

Marcos
01-08-2009, 02:04 PM
Originally Posted by treegal1
Pete, let me say slowly, the dump the horse farm the side of the road, grow your own fert and worms, wait I dare ya ask berry how a pallet of worm casts cost. then think about a 4x8 worm bed??? fish market maybe a saw mill or green waste processor, how about a dairy, got to have milk some where over there. yes maybe the feed store, chicken feed is great just read the label and go feed your lawn birds. if you want to waste the meals, or get some foul and feed them that and then use the used feed. maybe plant a clover or legume or just add some live worms to the soil, thats long term.

my tea costs me 2 cents a gallon now..............


TreeGal,

Thanks for the feedback. Perhaps I should plan a few acre farm as my next big plan, after the house is all paid off.



This is a perfect case-in-point for what I was talking about before.
Not every Joe Bloe homeowner can easily establish compost piles, bins or drums on their property.
Some municipalities, in fact, have local restrictions against it.
That is why it's important for many folks to be able to access decent finished leaf/manure compost via a local compost / mulch supplier.

In addition to once-a year composting, supplemental applications of vegetable proteins should be applied with a good quality rotary spreader, preferably one that has decent-sized openings in the bottom, so that these (generally less dense) products don't get 'stuck' as much.

The lawn progam I utilize generally begins with corn gluten pellets as the 1st spring application mainly along the always-troublesome sidewalk & driveway edges (to help prevent annual weeds later, such as crabgrass & spurge), cracked corn, cotton seed meal, alfalfa meal, soybean meal, and finishing off the year with another heavy dose of cracked corn.
(All of it goes down at approx 15-20 # per 1000 sq ft. Corn gluten, again, heavy, but just in "perimeter" areas)

And, ICT Bill...
To date, I've not gotten any calls or complaints from any of my customers about rodents feeding on any of the meals.
Birds? Yes. Once in a great while, but not very often.
Actually, I get more people calling...mistakingly thinking that moles are feeding on it.. :laugh:!

Kiril
01-08-2009, 04:12 PM
In addition to once-a year composting, supplemental applications of vegetable proteins should be applied with a good quality rotary spreader, preferably one that has decent-sized openings in the bottom, so that these (generally less dense) products don't get 'stuck' as much.

If you are using compost and mulching your clippings ...... why?

dishboy
01-08-2009, 04:21 PM
If you are using compost and mulching your clippings ...... why?

So how many pounds of N or equivalent does that provide? Is that enough for turf that likes 4-6 lbs of annual N?

JDUtah
01-08-2009, 04:32 PM
So how many pounds of N or equivalent does that provide? Is that enough for turf that likes 4-6 lbs of annual N?

With a higher N compost (2.5 to 5%) and a 1/4" topdressing, you could be putting down up to 9 lbs N per 1,000. Now that N is not all readily available so you only get 5-20% of it every year. But if you apply compost every year, it compounds. Plus think of the N from the grass clippings... with those two together you are well enough off...

Plus, I assume the 4-6 lbs N per year is based on studies done with mineral N which is more prone to leaching and volatization. Using more stable forms should help you minimize compensation for N loss.

Just my opinion and numbers from some research I did a little while back.

ps, You can burn turf with compost. Not as easily, but it can be done.

Mr. Nice
01-08-2009, 05:40 PM
Some times if the compost is of fare quality some other foods might be needed to stimulate biology to push growth? depending on how active the soil biology is at cycling nutrients?

Good finished compost will never burn a lawn, no matter how much you use? smother maybe but not burn.

NattyLawn
01-08-2009, 06:29 PM
Some times if the compost is of fare quality some other foods might be needed to stimulate biology to push growth? depending on how active the soil biology is at cycling nutrients?

Good finished compost will never burn a lawn, no matter how much you use? smother maybe but not burn.

Where is your data to support this? I can't believe you unless I see university studies.

JDUtah
01-08-2009, 07:40 PM
I'm feeling generous. I guess I will share with everyone.

I am attaching a crude spreadsheet calculator that makes a lot of assumptions. I have since updated the formulas and made them more accurate based on research but this one will help you get the idea...

As far as compost N compounding...

Say the compost available to you has 2% total N (NH4, NO3, and organic N... 80 to 98% of which is organic N) by dry weight. On average 10% of the total compost N will be available per year (studies done in the Utah climate/soil).

So say you apply 1/4" of said compost per year, every year...

Year 1
7.5 lbs total N applied this year

7.5 lbs N * 10% available = .75 lbs N available to plant

Year 2
7.5 lbs total N applied this year
6.75 lbs N remaining from the year before

14.25 lbs N * 10% available = 1.425 lbs N available to plant

Year 3
7.5 lbs total N applied this year
6.75 lbs N remaining from the year before
6.075 lbs N remaining from 2 years before

20.235 lbs N * 10% available = 2.03 lbs N available to plant

You get the idea.

If you keep a constant compost input with same compost (I know this isn't possible) you will reach an equilibrium where the turf has 7.5 pounds N available every year with nothing more than your 1/4" of compost. Now add N from recycled grass clippings. You have plenty of N.

At that rate it will take about 5 years until the compost will provide enough N on its own. Until then you may need to supplement some be it organically or synthetically. P and K are covered with just the compost.

You can get to equilibrium faster by adding more compost your first year or two. Play with the yearly amounts on the calculator. It will show you how fast you can get there/how to balance your budget. (note: 1/4" over 1,000 K requires .75 yards of compost)

It is a different way of thinking. Long term vs short term. Compost is an investment, Synthetic fert is a lunch.

Now to tie it into price so we have some relevancy to the thread topic...

Find your locally produced and lab tested compost for 20$ per yard. That means you are spending $15 to put down 7.5 lbs N per K = $2 per lb N.

Compare that to say 46-0-0 @ $20 per bag = $0.87 per lb N.

Might not look good for the compost... but then consider all the added benefits of the compost... P, K, Micro-nutrients, reduced turf disease, improved soil structure, more efficient watering, better drought tolerance, and recycling a waste stream (if you compost it yourself that now becomes income).

Add the costs to crudely compare the two... P, K, micro-nutrients, fungicide, and a soil moisture retention product (name escapes me right now)... The compost starts looking a lot better.

Anyways if you can figure it out play with the calculator to balance compost cost and N.

Disclaimer: I understand there are a lot of generalities in this post/calculator. Please remember that this is just to teach a principle. Universities have created whole programs that calculate long term organic N availability. If this calculator helps anybody better understand organic fertility I believe it is worth it. That is what motivates me to share it. I also understand that some of you think there is really no need to focus on organic fertility, only organic microbes. I beg to differ but will not get into a discussion about it.

Note to use the spreadsheet: you only need to change the data in the blue cells.

Kiril
01-09-2009, 01:18 AM
So how many pounds of N or equivalent does that provide? Is that enough for turf that likes 4-6 lbs of annual N?

Depends on the compost, soil, and the region you live in. Curious though, what is wrong with blood meal if you really need additional N? Certainly that is a viable organic nitrogen source and it is not taking anything away from the food industry.

Kiril
01-09-2009, 01:25 AM
Some times if the compost is of fare quality some other foods might be needed to stimulate biology to push growth?

Why would you need to do that, especially in landscapes? If you really need to stimulate the microbes, use a quick energy source like a complex sugar. I certainly wouldn't advocate this on a regular basis, but it can be used as a temporary shot in the "arm."

Kiril
01-09-2009, 01:26 AM
I am attaching a crude spreadsheet calculator that makes a lot of assumptions.

I haven't looked at it yet, but based on your post the above is very true.

Marcos
01-09-2009, 10:21 AM
Originally Posted by Marcos
In addition to once-a year composting, supplemental applications of vegetable proteins should be applied with a good quality rotary spreader, preferably one that has decent-sized openings in the bottom, so that these (generally less dense) products don't get 'stuck' as much.


If you are using compost and mulching your clippings ...... why?

To the best of my knowledge, everybody I service drops/mulches their clippings onto their lawns. ( I don't mow them.)

I've found over time that not everybody wants to go through the expense and/ or hassle of getting their lawn composted every spring.

So in the years in which compost is applied in the late spring / early summer, I may only do the spring apps of corn gluten & cracked corn, and the last application of cracked corn done heavily in the late fall.
For years in between in which no compost is applied whatsoever, I highly promote the mixed bag 5-step organic protein program I posted previously.

Is it overkill? I don't think so.
It's just that people in this high-end area of town won't tolerate "green weeds" as a substitute for green grass like some of you do. Most of them are not naive that way.
So, thus I've found that I've got to be pro active in these feedings in this way so that the turf in essence "out competes" any weeds, before they even get a chance to get a minute foothold.
This is what weed control in turf should be all about in ALL disciplines of professional lawn care, but unfortunately many of those in this younger generation coming on haven't gotten the message, or their older mentors haven't taught them well enough.

Kiril
01-09-2009, 10:47 AM
It's just that people in this high-end area of town won't tolerate "green weeds" as a substitute for green grass like some of you do. Most of them are not naive that way.
So, thus I've found that I've got to be pro active in these feedings in this way so that the turf in essence "out competes" any weeds, before they even get a chance to get a minute foothold.
This is what weed control in turf should be all about in ALL disciplines of professional lawn care, but unfortunately many of those in this younger generation coming on haven't gotten the message, or their older mentors haven't taught them well enough.

You mean like the green "weeds" in this lawn? :rolleyes:

http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=2651920&postcount=6

Marcos
01-09-2009, 10:57 AM
You mean like the green "weeds" in this lawn? :rolleyes:

http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=2651920&postcount=6

Don't be such an @&&, Kiril!
I know exactly what compost can do!

You don't know the type of customer base I have, and that the average size yard I take care of is between 3/4 acre- 1 acre!
Yearly composting for many of these folks is simply out of the realm of reality.

Kiril
01-09-2009, 11:05 AM
Yearly composting for many of these folks is simply out of the realm of reality.

How much does your 5 step program cost compare to a 1 time compost application?

treegal1
01-09-2009, 12:34 PM
composting can and does get done on lawns that are a lot larger, some even 30 acre sites.......

JDUtah
01-09-2009, 12:35 PM
I haven't looked at it yet, but based on your post the above is very true.

Lol,
Assumptions and crude are the only claims I make with it... besides the point that compost nutrition lasts more than 6 weeks, or even a year or two and thus stacks up as the years go by...

Well the weight and % N are based off locally produced and tested compost, so you could say that part is not assumed.

treegal1
01-09-2009, 04:52 PM
today's hot tip for materials for free, behind the couynty fair grounds!!!!! scored a gold mine!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mr. Nice
01-09-2009, 05:55 PM
Why would you need to do that, especially in landscapes? If you really need to stimulate the microbes, use a quick energy source like a complex sugar. I certainly wouldn't advocate this on a regular basis, but it can be used as a temporary shot in the "arm."

No amino/protein's in that fix?

JDUtah
01-09-2009, 10:36 PM
today's hot tip for materials for free, behind the couynty fair grounds!!!!! scored a gold mine!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great job tree!

Kiril
01-10-2009, 12:42 AM
No amino/protein's in that fix?

Once again, why? The OM is already there, you are just trying to turn it over quicker.

BTW, Jessica Alba is a goddess.

Smallaxe
01-10-2009, 09:55 AM
Originally Posted by Marcos
In addition to once-a year composting, supplemental applications of vegetable proteins should be applied with a good quality rotary spreader, preferably one that has decent-sized openings in the bottom, so that these (generally less dense) products don't get 'stuck' as much.




To the best of my knowledge, everybody I service drops/mulches their clippings onto their lawns. ( I don't mow them.)

I've found over time that not everybody wants to go through the expense and/ or hassle of getting their lawn composted every spring.

So in the years in which compost is applied in the late spring / early summer, I may only do the spring apps of corn gluten & cracked corn, and the last application of cracked corn done heavily in the late fall.
For years in between in which no compost is applied whatsoever, I highly promote the mixed bag 5-step organic protein program I posted previously.

Is it overkill? I don't think so.
It's just that people in this high-end area of town won't tolerate "green weeds" as a substitute for green grass like some of you do. Most of them are not naive that way.
So, thus I've found that I've got to be pro active in these feedings in this way so that the turf in essence "out competes" any weeds, before they even get a chance to get a minute foothold.
This is what weed control in turf should be all about in ALL disciplines of professional lawn care, but unfortunately many of those in this younger generation coming on haven't gotten the message, or their older mentors haven't taught them well enough.

So what is the purpose of this type of organic program? Putting down corn and other types of crop is not what one would consider environmentally friendly if you use the extra pesticides, synferts and burning fossil fuels to get your corn to the landscape.

Diverting the waste stream locally to build your soils is the objective for most organic programs. When the soils become rich enough there is little need for inputs. Let alone 5 times a season.

It is not so much that - those new to the organic are not properly educated - as it is that the concept of npk apps are not reconsidered. You have just replaced your fertilizer from synthetic to vegetable base. 5 apps is a lot of moldy corn. It has to rot to release its protiens.

JDUtah
01-10-2009, 01:48 PM
IMO there should be two industry's...

Organic & Sustainable Organic

Mr. Nice
01-10-2009, 02:06 PM
Once again, why? The OM is already there, you are just trying to turn it over quicker.

BTW, Jessica Alba is a goddess.


Why you say? because adding only a sugar will likely tie up any N till other protozoa, nem's, micro buggies start cycling it.

When trying to push growth of a lawn to out compete weeds.

Fish h, or other fast acting protein works well with carbs till system is fully functioning and established.

Are you watching honey?

DUSTYCEDAR
01-10-2009, 03:23 PM
Got to feed the yummies

Kiril
01-10-2009, 05:30 PM
Why you say? because adding only a sugar will likely tie up any N till other protozoa, nem's, micro buggies start cycling it.

It is a whole cycle stimulant, not a select portion of it.

When trying to push growth of a lawn to out compete weeds.

High growth rates doesn't necessarily lead to less weeds, however high density of desirable grasses usually does.

Fish h, or other fast acting protein works well with carbs till system is fully functioning and established.

Not necessary with a balanced compost.

Are you watching honey?

Into the Blue ..... and OMG she is soooooooooooooooooo hot. :dizzy:

treegal1
01-10-2009, 08:19 PM
with the blond hair or as a brunette? i like the dark hair myself, prrrrrrrrrr

Smallaxe
01-11-2009, 10:27 AM
with the blond hair or as a brunette? i like the dark hair myself, prrrrrrrrrr

OK...
This is getting too weird.
Is this a metaphor for fescue vs, Midnight KBG?

treegal1
01-11-2009, 11:32 AM
Jessica Alba!!!! kiril said something and i just wanted to know the blond version or the darker hair???

Kiril
01-11-2009, 01:09 PM
Jessica Alba!!!! kiril said something and i just wanted to know the blond version or the darker hair???

She could have pink hair and it wouldn't matter. :dizzy:

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123922&d=1225211491

JDUtah
01-11-2009, 02:02 PM
She could have pink hair and it wouldn't matter. :dizzy:

Happy Birthday Kiril. :)

Kiril
01-11-2009, 03:40 PM
Happy Birthday Kiril. :)

Oh my ............. http://www.websmileys.com/sm/love/1.gif

Mr. Nice
01-11-2009, 04:10 PM
I wonder if the carpet matches the drapes?

Mr. Nice
01-11-2009, 04:21 PM
It is a whole cycle stimulant, not a select portion of it.



Indeed, it is a whole system stimulant and not a portion.

With that same reasoning you could just use one type of simple sugar
to stimulate the cycle?

New seeding, pushing/stimulating growth of bunch forming grasses to full health and maturity as fast as possible will produce a thick stand of turf to crowd weeds out.

Tim Wilson
01-11-2009, 04:29 PM
She could have pink hair and it wouldn't matter. :dizzy:

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123922&d=1225211491

Now that's what I call organic!

Marcos
01-11-2009, 07:18 PM
How much does your 5 step program cost compare to a 1 time compost application?

Materials-wise, is's pretty much a wash when you look at it cost/acre.

Looking at labor by itself, however, a thorough composting can sometimes be up to 2X the cost of a yearly program as described before.

Manure spreading equipment and tractors are wonderful for wide-open expanses of lawn. But in the real world in many situations these lawns are broken up into tight areas because of patios / sheds / trees or whatnot, and of course the soil's moisture content at any given time may preclude any heavy equipment being brought onto these lawns at all.

Marcos
01-11-2009, 07:53 PM
So what is the purpose of this type of organic program? Putting down corn and other types of crop is not what one would consider environmentally friendly if you use the extra pesticides, synferts and burning fossil fuels to get your corn to the landscape.

Diverting the waste stream locally to build your soils is the objective for most organic programs. When the soils become rich enough there is little need for inputs. Let alone 5 times a season.

It is not so much that - those new to the organic are not properly educated - as it is that the concept of npk apps are not reconsidered. You have just replaced your fertilizer from synthetic to vegetable base. 5 apps is a lot of moldy corn. It has to rot to release its protiens.


To each his own, Smallaxe! :waving:

This has been working quite well for us for the past decade or so.
And if it ain't broke...I don't intend to fix it, thank you! :waving:

As fas as "burning fossil fuels to get your (meal product) to the landscape", I don't need to worry about that, either.
I get it all delivered to my storage pole barn at once.

Sure, you're absolutely correct in that cracked corn (or whatever) has to "release it's protiens (sic)" in order to work.
That's how I can look upon the program I'm doing, and tell any given customer with utmost honesty, that their lawn's current color & health can be attributed to earlier applications meals, vs. the one that may have "just" been applied!

People....a turfgrass situation can be looked upon AS a composting situation, too; so long as it's not taken to the Nth degree, of course.

B.T.W....Smallaxe....You'll never find any "moldy corn" lying around in or around any of our customers' yards! :)
Besides, I vary the program as the year progresses in order to pique the customers' general interest in "having variety", as well as seeing "variety"(...and in the case of alfalfa meal, "smelling variety" :laugh:)

Why don't you buy a bag of each at some local feed store, and set up a test mini-program on a grass plot somewhere local to you?
The rates are the same for all of them: 15-20# per 1000 sq ft

dishboy
01-11-2009, 08:14 PM
To each his own, Smallaxe! :waving:

This has been working quite well for us for the past decade or so.
And if it ain't broke...I don't intend to fix it, thank you! :waving:

As fas as "burning fossil fuels to get your (meal product) to the landscape", I don't need to worry about that, either.
I get it all delivered to my storage pole barn at once.

Sure, you're absolutely correct in that cracked corn (or whatever) has to "release it's protiens (sic)" in order to work.
That's how I can look upon the program I'm doing, and tell any given customer with utmost honesty, that their lawn's current color & health can be attributed to earlier applications meals, vs. the one that may have "just" been applied!

People....a turfgrass situation can be looked upon AS a composting situation, too; so long as it's not taken to the Nth degree, of course.

B.T.W....Smallaxe....You'll never find any "moldy corn" lying around in or around any of our customers' yards! :)
Besides, I vary the program as the year progresses in order to pique the customers' general interest in "having variety", as well as seeing "variety"(...and in the case of alfalfa meal, "smelling variety" :laugh:)

Why don't you buy a bag of each at some local feed store, and set up a test mini-program on a grass plot somewhere local to you?
The rates are the same for all of them: 15-20# per 1000 sq ft

Good post, I agree with you. I am going to do a side by side comparisons of some meals, straight compost and the 123 tea this season as my interest is sparked. My neighbor who I trade with has a acre lot and a well so I can do a pretty good side by side test controlling the water and mowing.

Marcos
01-11-2009, 08:55 PM
Why don't you buy a bag of each at some local feed store, and set up a test mini-program on a grass plot somewhere local to you?
The rates are the same for all of them: 15-20# per 1000 sq ft


Good post, I agree with you. I am going to do a side by side comparisons of some meals, straight compost and the 123 tea this season as my interest is sparked. My neighbor who I trade with has a acre lot and a well so I can do a pretty good side by side test controlling the water and mowing.

Good luck, dishboy. :waving:

We'll generally only use corn gluten around the hard surface "edges", if this applies at all in your test plot scenario.

Make sure that what you're getting, is something that is "speadable" out of a commercial grade rotary-type spreader!
Some feed mills/Ag co-ops may grind corn meal (for instance) down into almost "flour" consistency....and you certainly won't want to work with THAT!! :cry::cry:
This is one of the key reasons I've chosen to go with "cracked corn" through the years.

A few years ago I used a number of tons of "crimped corn" on some lawns, some of which we aerated about the same time, and we later discovered that some of the corn wasn't crimped nearly ENOUGH!!! :dizzy::dizzy::dizzy: :hammerhead: :cry::cry::cry:

Kiril
01-12-2009, 02:25 AM
IMHO, if you are going to use food crops to maintain a landscape, you might was well not even bother as you are completely missing the point of sustainable land care.

Kiril
01-12-2009, 02:29 AM
Materials-wise, is's pretty much a wash when you look at it cost/acre.

Don't know about you, but on a lb/lb basis, I can get compost WAYYYYYY cheaper than any food stock.

Looking at labor by itself, however, a thorough composting can sometimes be up to 2X the cost of a yearly program as described before.

What exactly do you mean by "thorough"?

Manure spreading equipment and tractors are wonderful for wide-open expanses of lawn. But in the real world in many situations these lawns are broken up into tight areas because of patios / sheds / trees or whatnot, and of course the soil's moisture content at any given time may preclude any heavy equipment being brought onto these lawns at all.

Gee ..... I've never spread compost before :hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead:

Fact of the matter is, given you don't do maint., I expect you make far more money with your 5 step program than you ever would with a 1 time compost application .... that is why you do it, no?

Marcos
01-12-2009, 02:33 AM
IMHO, if you are going to use food crops to maintain a landscape, you might was well not even bother as you are completely missing the point of sustainable land care.
:dizzy:
O.K.....And who designated you the supreme god of "what is right vs. wrong" in organic landscape maintenance?

Kiril
01-12-2009, 02:37 AM
:dizzy:
O.K.....And who designated you the supreme god of "what is right vs. wrong" in organic landscape maintenance?

No one. Common sense tells you that using food crops as fertilizer is ignorant at best .... sorry if that offends you, but hey man, open your eyes. :dizzy:

Marcos
01-12-2009, 03:02 AM
Fact of the matter is, given you don't do maint., I expect you make far more money with your 5 step program than you ever would with a 1 time compost application .... that is why you do it, no?

Oh, it's such a CRIME to make a living, huh?!?
What are you, an Obama socialist?! :cool2:

We've got to be there for other maintenance practises throughout the year, anyway....(cleanups, pruning, trimming, irrigation, etc)...so it simply makes sense for us to do it this way, because we're usually ALREADY THERE!

Many of these customers get a 1/3"-1/2" layer of compost too, if not every spring, at least every other spring.
They're not afraid to spend $$ for a nice yard.
This should give you something of an idea of how high of standards most people have around here.

Round numbers 4U:
Adding up all the various meals we used for 2008, and dividing by 5, the average cost/bag was (just over) $10.
This means that at the (high) rate of 20#/ 1000 sq ft, the average cost was about $4.00 / 1000 per application.
The 5 round cost for that same 1000 sq ft would then be 5 x 4 = $20, which is comparable to the cost of a finished yard of wholesale compost.

Marcos
01-12-2009, 03:08 AM
No one. Common sense tells you that using food crops as fertilizer is ignorant at best .... sorry if that offends you, but hey man, open your eyes. :dizzy:

We have had 9+ years of success at this!
So therefore, YOU are the one who is ignorant!

Smallaxe
01-12-2009, 08:20 AM
Indeed, it is a whole system stimulant and not a portion.

With that same reasoning you could just use one type of simple sugar
to stimulate the cycle?

New seeding, pushing/stimulating growth of bunch forming grasses to full health and maturity as fast as possible will produce a thick stand of turf to crowd weeds out.

That is an interesting point that - almost - got discussed one time.

It would seem that cycling means that grass clippings and miscellaneous landscape debris would be returned to the soil naturally. Mowing helps reduce the size of the material and hopefully some worms to further the cause.

Bacteria that breaks down the cellulose in vegetative growth should be the dominate bacteria extant - efficiently cycling the nutrients back from those materials.

So: - Does a simple sugar start that ball rolling?
Would molasses be better yet?
Is corn and or alfalfa meal necessary to do the best job?

Smallaxe
01-12-2009, 09:10 AM
Oh, it's such a CRIME to make a living, huh?!?
What are you, an Obama socialist?! :cool2:

We've got to be there for other maintenance practises throughout the year, anyway....(cleanups, pruning, trimming, irrigation, etc)...so it simply makes sense for us to do it this way, because we're usually ALREADY THERE!

Many of these customers get a 1/3"-1/2" layer of compost too, if not every spring, at least every other spring.
They're not afraid to spend $$ for a nice yard.
This should give you something of an idea of how high of standards most people have around here.

Round numbers 4U:
Adding up all the various meals we used for 2008, and dividing by 5, the average cost/bag was (just over) $10.
This means that at the (high) rate of 20#/ 1000 sq ft, the average cost was about $4.00 / 1000 per application.
The 5 round cost for that same 1000 sq ft would then be 5 x 4 = $20, which is comparable to the cost of a finished yard of wholesale compost.

I didn't mean to start anything and I am not a purist either.
The GMO corn has pretty much contaminated all the other corn produced so it really isn't good for much other than ethanol or fertilizer anyways.

What I was driving at is - What was the motivation to go organic? and Why does the customer believe in organics?
If the client believes that CO2 and glyphosate is killing the planet they would not want corn used as fertilizer.

That is what I was driving at. :)

dishboy
01-12-2009, 09:49 AM
IMHO, if you are going to use food crops to maintain a landscape, you might was well not even bother as you are completely missing the point of sustainable land care.


I would suggest you volunteer for the forum moderator position and rewrite all the sticky's because last I checked this was not the "sustainable land care" forum and the sticky's recommend using "Feed" in a Organic program.

Kiril
01-12-2009, 09:50 AM
Oh, it's such a CRIME to make a living, huh?!?

No, but let us be responsible about the way we do it.

Round numbers 4U:
Adding up all the various meals we used for 2008, and dividing by 5, the average cost/bag was (just over) $10.
This means that at the (high) rate of 20#/ 1000 sq ft, the average cost was about $4.00 / 1000 per application.
The 5 round cost for that same 1000 sq ft would then be 5 x 4 = $20, which is comparable to the cost of a finished yard of wholesale compost.

I'm not following your math, but if you charge the same to just use compost, they why not use compost only? Have you tried a compost only program?

You know it can be done, there are plenty of people on this forum who do it.

You see, I am trying to support the sustainable movement here, and practices that have the potential to be labeled as environmentally irresponsible does nothing good for that movement, or for our environment as a whole. Our agricultural infrastructure and lands are already stretched to the breaking point, why would anyone use an "environmentally responsible" practice that will just add to the problem not help solve it?

Kiril
01-12-2009, 10:03 AM
I would suggest you volunteer for the forum moderator position and rewrite all the sticky's because last I checked this was not the "sustainable land care" forum and the sticky's recommend using "Feed" in a Organic program.

Just because something is in a sticky doesn't make it right, especially given the lack of references. If you didn't notice, the stickys are locked, and therefore cannot be discussed.

Furthermore, did you miss post #21?

http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=2678291&postcount=21

treegal1
01-12-2009, 10:08 AM
at the national average of 12-14 nonrenewable calories of energy per 1 calorie of crop production it would seem that the use of corn is anything but a sound practice. as far as organic then, heck just take a look at how the corn was grown. I get that some just use the grain and all to be marketed as an "organic program" but in all reality its worse than using regular fert in the beginning.


also as far as forum moderator, yes kiril has more experiance and a heck of a lot more than 315 posts that help us as land CARE professionals do the correct thing and use the resources to the best of our ability's

Mr. Nice
01-12-2009, 10:12 AM
The foundation of my program is compost first when possible depending on time of year, existing conditions, costumers long term goal's and budget, then I feed with fish h, kelp, molasses,Rock dusts,worm cast/extract,AACT, and inoculate with local biology sources and commercial mycorrhiza.

It basically revolves around building soil structure and long term fertility combined with liquid feeding to stimulate biology.
At times if needed I will add a plant or animal by product/meals/manures.

My end goal and anybody else In this biz should be to produce their own HIGH quality inexpensive compost's vermi and thermal, and put in place a system to deliver it efficiently and economically to the costumer, Till then I will have to do the best I can with what I have at my disposal.

treegal1
01-12-2009, 10:19 AM
Many thanks to Bob Webster, Malcolm Beck, and Howard Garrett for their advice over the years. If you know them, you'll see their influence throughout all of my FAQs. I donít agree with everything they say, but probably 90% of it.

Starting a professional organic program?
Too many folks make this too hard. Starting an organic program is as simple as stopping the use of chemical herbicides, insecticides, fungicides and synthetic chemical fertilizers. That is all there is to it. For now you might have to trust that it works, but I will explain how it works in this and other FAQs to be posted here. I will discuss what replaces those materials in this FAQ.

from the sticky........ do I need to say more this guy has quoted some of the less known fringe gardeners.......

Kiril
01-12-2009, 10:25 AM
If a clients property is large enough, then perhaps producing compost on site is the best solution. As an LCO, you provide a chipping service for yard waste and maint. of the compost pile.

Mr. Nice
01-12-2009, 10:38 AM
Though I agree in the bigger picture of things that it is a waste of energy to go that route just using food meals only, I would say that at the site being applied to that it does help build "some" more fertility by feeding biology over time then just using synthetic ferts at that site only.

But you guy's are right, there are other ways to do things.

Let's educate other ways,the final word to growing a great lawn is not always just one or annual compost app's because compost quality varies from around the country....

Kiril
01-12-2009, 10:51 AM
Perhaps I need to revive and continue the sustainable practices threads?

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=215264

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=216252

treegal1
01-12-2009, 11:07 AM
yes please, maybe it can undo some of the sticky......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRz34Dee7XY

Marcos
01-12-2009, 11:53 AM
I'm not following your math, but if you charge the same to just use compost, they why not use compost only? Have you tried a compost only program?

As I posted on page 118 of this thread, the LABOR is often much, much more expensive, depending upon the layout of the given property.
Yes, some customers DO want compost only, or a combination of both; and these lawns pretty much look just as nice, and respond just as well to seasonal dips and changes as do the lawns that have been fed with meals for a number of years.


You see, I am trying to support the sustainable movement here, and practices that have the potential to be labeled as environmentally irresponsible does nothing good for that movement, or for our environment as a whole. Our agricultural infrastructure and lands are already stretched to the breaking point, why would anyone use an "environmentally responsible" practice that will just add to the problem not help solve it?



Look, Kiril!
Not every situation & customer preference, organically that is, calls for finished compost, period!
If you want to go out and ram compost down your clients' throats EVERY spring and/or fall, and risk losing them....have at it! More power to ya!

The fact of the matter is...we do something that has a track record of success!

And dishboy's absolutely correct, I never paid much attention to it before this morning, but a meal program quite similar to ours (in some ways) is outlined in this forum's sticky!! :clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:
_________________________

Tell me, Kiril, do you also object to corn or other grain staples being used to make ethanol to run whatever vehicle you drive?
Or...are you a "horse & buggy" kind of guy? :rolleyes:

treegal1
01-12-2009, 12:17 PM
I can tell you that i do object to grain and corn alcohol use, look at the riots that it caused from people starving in Mexico!!!!

there is a better way trust me, take grassoline for instance or algae for fuel or HHO, or methane or syn-gas or or or...

and yes I am thinking of a mule and buggy, seems real popular out near my farm. in the city its lately been for just run around needs a scooter or, eek dare i say a BIKE for under 2 mile trips.

granted do what you can as you can but at the same time try and see the forest for the trees. some things done in the name of "organic " just don't sit well with ME. don't take this wrong or anything but maybe try and think of the grains you use getting produced by a small farmer with sustainable practices or converting your grain use to some other waste input altogether??? help out a local farm or sharecropper

Kiril
01-12-2009, 12:22 PM
Tell me, Kiril, do you also object to corn or other grain staples being used to make ethanol to run whatever vehicle you drive?
Or...are you a "horse & buggy" kind of guy?

Absolutely object to food crops being used for fuel production .... and I drive a diesel.

You have every right to use whatever product you want, but the way I see it, if you are using food crops, or any other organic source that could be used for something more productive, then you are only part of the problem, not part of the solution. You can spin that however you want, but at the end of the day, that is what it comes down to.

Marcos
01-12-2009, 12:23 PM
If a clients property is large enough, then perhaps producing compost on site is the best solution. As an LCO, you provide a chipping service for yard waste and maint. of the compost pile.

Unfortunately, we live worlds apart, as far as the "green attitude" of people around us, Kiril.

People of suburbia Ohio, in general, are not yet "tuned in" to the idea of establishing permanent compost piles or enclosed bins in their yards, like I know they are in California, Oregon, Washington, Alaska, etc.
Yes...this is slowly changing here for the better, but VERY, VERY slowly.

Many folks are O.K. with starting a pile, but are clueless because they don't know they have to occasionally turn it, or they lack the equipment (or the gumption :laugh:) to turn it.
Or worse, they'll sometimes end up throwing contaminated grass clippings in it! :cry:

Frankly, I hate to say this, but what will finally be the harbinger of the green revolution in the Midwest, will be the older generation gradually dieing off or moving away.
It's their grandkids that'll be the ones taking the lead on this issue, and teaching their loser baby bust & baby boom parents! :laugh:

treegal1
01-12-2009, 12:25 PM
maybe its time you get a cast net to harvest the FREE waste that is LOADED with all the great things that meals have, maybe get paid for it too??

we love the duck weed!!!!!!!!!!!!! also forgot its like 7%N from the get go!!!

http://ohioline.osu.edu/a-fact/0014.html

and at 10 $ per bag that has to ad up real fast????

treegal1
01-12-2009, 12:28 PM
Many folks are O.K. with starting a pile, but are clueless because they don't know they have to occasionally turn it, or they lack the equipment (or the gumption ) to turn it.
Or worse, they'll sometimes end up throwing contaminated grass clippings in it!

try and use some waste pvc or drain pipe with holes in it to give the needed air for a healthy pile.

don't worry about some dirty grass man, the micro herd will in most cases take care of it in time with some air.........

Kiril
01-12-2009, 12:30 PM
Unfortunately, we live worlds apart, as far as the "green attitude" of people around us, Kiril.

People of suburbia Ohio, in general, are not yet "tuned in" to the idea of establishing permanent compost piles or enclosed bins in their yards, like I know they are in California, Oregon, Washington, Alaska, etc.
Yes...this is slowly changing here for the better, but VERY, VERY slowly.

You would be surprised at how few people in my region use compost piles ... but that could be due more to lot size than anything. I can never understand why people always associate CA with tree huggers. Based on what I see, nothing could be further from the truth.

Many folks are O.K. with starting a pile, but are clueless because they don't know they have to occasionally turn it, or they lack the equipment (or the gumption :laugh:) to turn it.
Or worse, they'll sometimes end up throwing contaminated grass clippings in it! :cry:

Then educate them on how to do it correctly, or do it for them.

Frankly, I hate to say this, but what will finally be the harbinger of the green revolution in the Midwest, will be the older generation gradually dieing off or moving away.
It's their grandkids that'll be the ones taking the lead on this issue, and teaching their loser baby bust & baby boom parents! :laugh:

You are probably right, and hopefully they will be teaching ways to manage landscapes in a sustainable fashion without destroying some other part of the environment in the process.

Marcos
01-12-2009, 12:37 PM
Absolutely object to food crops being used for fuel production .... and I drive a diesel.

You have every right to use whatever product you want, but the way I see it, if you are using food crops, or any other organic source that could be used for something more productive, then you are only part of the problem, not part of the solution. You can spin that however you want, but at the end of the day, that is what it comes down to.

Then I guess we'll agree to disagree.

And if you, Kiril, want to usurp this Lawnsite forum as some sort of "exclusive club" to promote your elitist view, then have at it!

I hope you have fun posting to your 3 or 4 other sorry "exclusive" comrades! :waving:

treegal1
01-12-2009, 12:50 PM
this tread 2000+ views and the sticky, 6000.................

Kiril
01-12-2009, 01:03 PM
And if you, Kiril, want to usurp this Lawnsite forum as some sort of "exclusive club" to promote your elitist view, then have at it!

Now really Marcos, was that necessary. I am simply looking for sustainable solutions to our problems. Using food crops as fertilizers is NOT SUSTAINABLE. If you can show me how they are, then I will STFU, but until then I am going to continue to try and find real world (as you put it), long term sustainable solutions to our problems.

Marcos
01-12-2009, 01:16 PM
maybe its time you get a cast net to harvest the FREE waste that is LOADED with all the great things that meals have, maybe get paid for it too??

we love the duck weed!!!!!!!!!!!!! also forgot its like 7%N from the get go!!!

http://ohioline.osu.edu/a-fact/0014.html

and at 10 $ per bag that has to ad up real fast????

Thanks, treegal, but I don't see a whole lot of practicality in us doing this.
We simply manage too much acreage at this point in time to make this kind of thing cost-efficient & effective.
Besides, most folks around here already use some sort of algacide in their pond or lake.

Marcos
01-12-2009, 01:21 PM
Now really Marcos, was that necessary. I am simply looking for sustainable solutions to our problems. Using food crops as fertilizers is NOT SUSTAINABLE. If you can show me how they are, then I will STFU, but until then I am going to continue to try and find real world (as you put it), long term sustainable solutions to our problems.

You attack your windmill, we'll attack ours......

dishboy
01-12-2009, 01:24 PM
Moving away from farm based feeds to renewable sources is fine and dandy but to say that if you use them you are part of the problem is hypocritical IMO unless your program uses zero fossil fuels to produce & deliver your product to the customer. I doubt anybody who posts here has accomplished that. Even if you burn bio-diesel that truck/ tractor was not produced from a pile of discarded shi&!

Using feed grain has allowed me to go from collecting clippings and hauling them off to a dump site to mulching clippings 100% of the time. Would you agree that this alone is a environmentally positive move. When using feed grains instead of synthetics the chance of groundwater contamination is reduced is it not? I know some will argue that the farmer is contaminating the ground water but my experience is that within a year my inputs to maintain healthy turf begins to decline and thus a net reduction in exposure to leaching. This never happens using synthetics and removing clippings. Water usage also declines which is the reverse of using synthetics.

I do agree that using waste stream inputs is better but the elitist attitude sometimes displayed here IMO does the movement to organics a disservice if we alienate those who can only make the change in small increments as time, knowledge and economics allow.

dishboy
01-12-2009, 01:34 PM
yes please, maybe it can undo some of the sticky......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRz34Dee7XY

I love it, a guy riding around in the back of gashog pollution pump telling us about a better way to live.

Marcos
01-12-2009, 01:43 PM
Using feed grain has allowed me to go from collecting clippings and hauling them off to a dump site to mulching clippings 100% of the time. Would you agree that this alone is a environmentally positive move. When using feed grains instead of synthetics the chance of groundwater contamination is reduced is it not? I know some will argue that the farmer is contaminating the ground water but my experience is that within a year my inputs to maintain healthy turf begins to decline and thus a net reduction in exposure to leaching. This never happens using synthetics and removing clippings. Water usage also declines which is the reverse of using synthetics.



Yes and yes.

Just like with the use of finished compost, the consistent use of meals in turf will tend to reduce the overall growth rate vs. nitrogen fertilizers, but also hold the color longer, as well.

Just like with the use of finished compost the applicator is indeed feeding the soil; the difference is that the lawn IS the composting mechanism in the case of the meals. In the case of the compost, the work's largely already been done in the pile, of course.

We are buying these meals from farm co-ops and grain mills that support Ohio, midwest & Southern farmers and their families.
So, thus, we are in a small way working to SUSTAIN a dying way of life in this region, that's by leaps and bounds becoming a monster suburbia!!! :cry:

Kiril
01-12-2009, 01:52 PM
Moving away from farm based feeds to renewable sources is fine and dandy but to say that if you use them you are part of the problem is hypocritical IMO unless your program uses zero fossil fuels to produce & deliver your product to the customer. I doubt anybody who posts here has accomplished that. Even if you burn bio-diesel that truck/ tractor was not produced from a pile of discarded shi&!

How is this hypocritical? What you are doing is merely shifting the location of environmental damage, not eliminating or reducing it.

Using feed grain has allowed me to go from collecting clippings and hauling them off to a dump site to mulching clippings 100% of the time.

This makes absolutely no sense at all. What does using feed grain have anything to do with mulching clippings?

I do agree that using waste stream inputs is better but the elitist attitude sometimes displayed here IMO does the movement to organics a disservice if we alienate those who can only make the change in small increments as time, knowledge and economics allow.

So you believe that using practices that are not sustainable is not doing the "organic movement" a disservice? Look at how many people have a problem with using corn for ethanol (for good reason) .... explain to me how this is any different than using corn or any other food crop as a fertilizer?

Did you not read the definitions I referenced?

This is not an elitist attitude, this is a practical attitude. It does not make practical sense to grow plants in order to fertilize plants. Why is this so difficult for people to understand?

If you really feel the need to use a bagged product (or have limited choices), at least use one that was derived from the waste stream.

Kiril
01-12-2009, 02:00 PM
Just like with the use of finished compost, the consistent use of meals in turf will tend to reduce the overall growth rate vs. nitrogen fertilizers, but also hold the color longer, as well.

Just like with the use of finished compost the applicator is indeed feeding the soil; the difference is that the lawn IS the composting mechanism in the case of the meals. In the case of the compost, the work's largely already been done in the pile, of course.

No Marcos, using food meals is NOT just like using compost, that is unless you are laying down a 1/8-1/4" inch layer of food meal as you would with compost.. :hammerhead:

We are buying these meals from farm co-ops and grain mills that support Ohio, midwest & Southern farmers and their families.
So, thus, we are in a small way working to SUSTAIN a dying way of life in this region, that's by leaps and bounds becoming a monster suburbia!!! :cry:

ROFL You can't be serious.

JDUtah
01-12-2009, 02:35 PM
What I was driving at is - What was the motivation to go organic? and Why does the customer believe in organics?
If the client believes that CO2 and glyphosate is killing the planet they would not want corn used as fertilizer.

That is what I was driving at. :)

Well stated Smallaxe. :clapping:

JDUtah
01-12-2009, 02:42 PM
Someday I might be able to satisfy both sides of this story. In like 20 years...

Mr. Nice
01-12-2009, 04:07 PM
For all the mud throwing, Is there no common ground?

treegal1
01-12-2009, 04:39 PM
the common ground that we (me and mine) are trying to do is lesson the CO2 emission and at the same time lower or eliminate the need for fuel(imo) wasteful fertilizers that are in the most part unneeded inputs. granted some of time it may need a push the long term goal of sustainable "organic" lawn or farm care.

Marcos
01-12-2009, 05:29 PM
This is not an elitist attitude, this is a practical attitude. It does not make practical sense to grow plants in order to fertilize plants. Why is this so difficult for people to understand?



Makes all the sense in the world to me, skippy!

Marcos
01-12-2009, 05:42 PM
Just like with the use of finished compost, the consistent use of meals in turf will tend to reduce the overall growth rate vs. nitrogen fertilizers, but also hold the color longer, as well.

Just like with the use of finished compost the applicator is indeed feeding the soil; the difference is that the lawn IS the composting mechanism in the case of the meals. In the case of the compost, the work's largely already been done in the pile, of course.

No Marcos, using food meals is NOT just like using compost, that is unless you are laying down a 1/8-1/4" inch layer of food meal as you would with compost.



Ah, but it IS, king-o-saa-bee!
When you apply 15-20 lbs. of meal per 1000 sq ft, 5 times a year!

It just goes to figure that a Californian like yourself wouldn't give a rat's _ _ _ about midwest farmers, their families, or their livelihood.
Hell, in hindsight I never should have brought that kind of sentiment up to the likes of ya'! :hammerhead:
Like you folks out west have any clue about what's going on with the farmland in Ohio & the midwest!

dishboy
01-12-2009, 06:06 PM
Local farm products going to local yards seems to make sense to me

dishboy
01-12-2009, 06:40 PM
How is this hypocritical? What you are doing is merely shifting the location of environmental damage, not eliminating or reducing it.

This makes absolutely no sense at all. What does using feed grain have anything to do with mulching clippings?




So you believe that using practices that are not sustainable is not doing the "organic movement" a disservice? Look at how many people have a problem with using corn for ethanol (for good reason) .... explain to me how this is any different than using corn or any other food crop as a fertilizer?

Did you not read the definitions I referenced?

This is not an elitist attitude, this is a practical attitude. It does not make practical sense to grow plants in order to fertilize plants. Why is this so difficult for people to understand?

If you really feel the need to use a bagged product (or have limited choices), at least use one that was derived from the waste stream.

Mulching and using feed grains will reduce inputs as the soil OM improves. 5 applications may be called for at first but that quickly diminishes. This will certainly reduce environmental damage.

If you do not see a correlation between feed grain ,WIN and mulching grass I would suggest you have very little experience behind a mulching mower.

Almost any practice that moves homeowners to mulch mow and stop using WSN is a service to the Organic movement IMO. Until you can provide your service without using fossil fuels or machinery built using fossil fuels I will stand by my position that it is hypocritical to criticize those who use feed grains in their program. By your reasoning it is OK to use some non sustainable practices but not others and you get to draw the line. Is your Diesel truck emission free and does it run on renewable fuel?

Regarding your references, what is that the Word of God as translated by Kiril?


What waste stream bagged material would that be and what is your source that comes in at price that competes with feed mills? Most customers don't want people poop.

Marcos
01-12-2009, 07:44 PM
5 applications may be called for at first but that quickly diminishes. This will certainly reduce environmental damage.





To be perfectly honest, this COULD be done with fewer applications, possibly as few as 3, provided the seasonal surface conditions were right for growing/decomposition throughout the year, certainly in more consistently hot & humid climates like Florida / Texas / parts of California for sure.
The thing is...Ohio summers usually aren't long enough to allow for this, much less spring/fall blankets of compost, as some folks prescribe on here.

Dishboy, the 1st time you take a 50# bag of cracked corn and spread it out over a 2500 sq.ft (i.e. 50' x 50') area, you'll realize how dense this rate truly is, and how much perceived value you're potentially be delivering to your customers.

Anticipating your next Q:
Only a 50' x 50' area per 50 lb. bag?

Don't fret it!
Right now my supplier is selling me cracked corn for about $6.25 / 50 lb. bag.
(The rest of the meals are quite a bit higher...cotton seed meal is highest at around $14)
But you'll need to shop YOUR area; prices are almost always based on volume purchased, and maybe a visual/verbal poker hand or two with these vendors.
Prices typically change weekly, and are hinged on corn in this area of the country.

Good luck! Keep me posted! :waving:

treegal1
01-12-2009, 08:01 PM
Right now my supplier is selling me cracked corn for about $6.25 / 50 lb. bag. wow thats cheap. question what do you pay for alfalfa pellets or meal????

dishboy
01-12-2009, 08:27 PM
wow thats cheap. question what do you pay for alfalfa pellets or meal????

Alfalfa meal was around $8.50 per 50 last summer, Soy around $14.50

treegal1
01-12-2009, 08:41 PM
see that's why I use duck weed and compost, down here its like 17 -25$ per bag and its a lot to move that many bags. the scoop does a great job moving the post around.....

that is cheap feed, I wish that where the case for my animal feed( for animals) corn for the hogs and goat is big$$$ and does not store well........

dishboy
01-12-2009, 08:50 PM
Sugar beet waste is going for $180 a ton but the pellets are to big to pass a spreader and when the water hits them it looks like a flock of Geese overwintered in your yard. Am working that issue. Although not very much Protein my initial testing was very promising on turf response.

Kiril
01-12-2009, 09:08 PM
Makes all the sense in the world to me, skippy!

Doesn't surprise me ... to hell with everything as long as I can make a buck.

Ah, but it IS, king-o-saa-bee!
When you apply 15-20 lbs. of meal per 1000 sq ft, 5 times a year!

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

It just goes to figure that a Californian like yourself wouldn't give a rat's _ _ _ about midwest farmers, their families, or their livelihood.
Hell, in hindsight I never should have brought that kind of sentiment up to the likes of ya'! :hammerhead:
Like you folks out west have any clue about what's going on with the farmland in Ohio & the midwest!

The welfare of farmers in OH has NOTHING to do with this conservation, and you should be ashamed to have even brought it up.

treegal1
01-12-2009, 09:10 PM
yeah man, we are working with sugar bagass and it is like wow!!!! sugars will start the ball rolling...........

Kiril
01-12-2009, 09:15 PM
Regarding your references, what is that the Word of God as translated by Kiril?.

You know DB, it is a waste of time trying to talk sense to you and Marcos, because clearly you have convinced yourselves that what you are doing is "good" for the environment. So keep on patting yourselves on the back and claiming you embrace the "organic" movement. This is beginning to feel like a discussion about global warming with Marcos. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

treegal1
01-12-2009, 10:03 PM
Egoismo....................

Marcos
01-12-2009, 11:27 PM
wow thats cheap. question what do you pay for alfalfa pellets or meal????

I was quoted $11.50 last week for 50# alfalfa meal; but of course commodities like this change from week-to-week.

Marcos
01-12-2009, 11:39 PM
Alfalfa meal was around $8.50 per 50 last summer, Soy around $14.50

That's old news regarding the alfalfa.
You probably won't see that again soon, unless something quite unforeseen happens. Look for it to stay in the $10-$12 range for awhile.

On the other hand, I've recently gotten soybean meal pricing from two local vendors, that both hover around the $10.00 / #50 price.
I'm planning right now to lock in at this price. I have a strong feeling it's going to go up from here.

Marcos
01-12-2009, 11:47 PM
Sugar beet waste is going for $180 a ton but the pellets are to big to pass a spreader and when the water hits them it looks like a flock of Geese overwintered in your yard. Am working that issue. Although not very much Protein my initial testing was very promising on turf response.

Sugar beet waste, huh?

Hmm...this could be multi-functional!
Does it melt snow, too? :)

Marcos
01-13-2009, 12:12 AM
Doesn't surprise me ... to hell with everything as long as I can make a buck.



Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.



The welfare of farmers in OH has NOTHING to do with this conservation (sic) , and you should be ashamed to have even brought it up.

Pretty lame...
It certainly appears as though you have officially run out of ammo, Kiril!

You have to keep into perspective this common denominator:
We're all in the same general boat, headed in the same general direction, AGAINST the use of atmosphere-derived N's and mined P's, K's and micros, as well as chemical weed controls, etc...

So therefore, Kiril, pull your britches out of your crack, will ya?

If the standard for having conversations in this Lawnsite organic forum is STRICTLY "sustainable lawn & landscape" like you want it to be, Kiril.
Well, frankly, you're excluding 'X' number of people who are out there attempting to run chemical-free businesses and do things legit and clean like myself & dishboy....and who knows how many more???

And you'll likely never know just how many more there were, Kiril.
Because blatant arrogant elitism like yours pizzed them all off, and they no doubt went to different sites!!

Kiril
01-13-2009, 12:29 AM
It certainly appears as though you have officially run out of ammo, Kiril!

No Marcos, I have just run out of patience talking to a wall.

You have to keep into perspective this common denominator:
We're all in the same general boat, headed in the same general direction, AGAINST the use of atmosphere-derived N's and mined P's, K's and micros, as well as chemical weed controls, etc...

Agreed, but some practices that you and others use ends up in a net loss, not a net gain. Therefore, what is the point other than to market yourself as "organic" so you can charge more money. :nono:

If the standard for having conversations in this Lawnsite organic forum is STRICTLY "sustainable lawn & landscape" like you want it to be, Kiril.
Well, frankly, you're excluding 'X' number of people who are out there attempting to do run chemical-free businesses and do things legit and clean like myself & dishboy....and who knows how many more???

Wake up Marcos, organic practices should embrace sustainability. If you can't see that then you are a blind #*$& and have completely missed the boat. :hammerhead:.

And you'll likely never know just how many more there were, Kiril.
Because blatant arrogant elitism like yours pizzed them all off, and they no doubt went to different sites!!

Getting pretty tired of being called elitist, especially since you know better. Someone has to put a stop to the B.S. that flies around these forums at times, and it obviously isn't going to come from you.

On site and/or regionally produced waste stream compost
IS the most sustainable way to organically manage your landscape.

Do you dispute this Marcos? If so, you better be prepared to back it up.

You want an example of an elitist attitude, how about this?

If you are not using organically certified products then you are killing the planet.

Now THAT is an elitist attitude.

Marcos
01-13-2009, 12:36 AM
No Marcos, I have just run out of patience talking to a wall.


Agreed. You are a wall as well.
Good luck to 'ya.

Kiril
01-13-2009, 12:44 AM
You are a wall as well.

At least my wall has a foundation.

NattyLawn
01-13-2009, 10:20 AM
Sugar beet waste is going for $180 a ton but the pellets are to big to pass a spreader and when the water hits them it looks like a flock of Geese overwintered in your yard. Am working that issue. Although not very much Protein my initial testing was very promising on turf response.

Sugar beet waste is interesting. It should have some N and sugar beets are used in the Canadian version of the Green Guardian. I wonder if this would have any pre-emergent or maybe an organic weed and feed type material if applied on a dewy morning....Maybe if it was more of a fine prill or a powder.

Hmmmmm.....

JDUtah
01-13-2009, 03:02 PM
Hey look they are talking about a waste stream Kiril! Woot!

dishboy
01-13-2009, 03:17 PM
Hey look they are talking about a waste stream Kiril! Woot! To bad you have to go 40 lbs a K to get a N response ......

JDUtah
01-13-2009, 03:21 PM
... Dough!

Kiril
01-13-2009, 03:21 PM
Hey look they are talking about a waste stream Kiril! Woot!

No really. There are essentially no waste products from sugar beets. What is left over after processing can be used for cattle and sheep feed. The byproducts are also being looked at for on-site fuel production at the factory, especially given the energy required to produce sugar.

JDUtah
01-13-2009, 03:23 PM
Lol ... Double Dough!!

JDUtah
01-13-2009, 03:25 PM
Holy crap man... so is compost the only waste stream you consider usable??

Kiril
01-13-2009, 03:33 PM
Holy crap man... so is compost the only waste stream you consider usable??

For landscapes .... pretty much. If a "waste" product can be used for other purposes, such as livestock feed, on-site fuel production, restoring OM to the field where the crop was harvested from, then IMO these are infinitely better uses for these "waste" products as they contribute far more to a sustainable infrastructure than using these products to maintain regionally inappropriate landscapes.

JDUtah
01-13-2009, 03:35 PM
I can see that...

dishboy
01-14-2009, 02:59 PM
Depends on the compost, soil, and the region you live in. Curious though, what is wrong with blood meal if you really need additional N? Certainly that is a viable organic nitrogen source and it is not taking anything away from the food industry.


I missed this , what are your sources for blood meal please?

Kiril
01-14-2009, 04:11 PM
I missed this , what are your sources for blood meal please?

Here is a place to start. Search for "blood".

http://www.omri.org/complete_company.pdf

bicmudpuppy
01-27-2009, 02:15 AM
If your products have to carry a label for application safety and all that, then this suggestion won't help you; but any feed store, mill, or farmer's co-op has plain brown bags of protein in the form of corn, maize, flax (linseed), soy, alfalfa, cottonseed, milo, etc. A mill can mix, grind and bag any blend you want. If you buy a pallet or more they will cut you a deal. The application rate is 10-20 pounds per 1,000 square feet. You can go up or down from there. 80 pounds per 1,000 is too much. If you use molasses and have your own container you can get it for about $1.00 per gallon from a co-op. At that price you should offer it whether it seems to do anything or not. Spray every surface of every plant at a rate of 1 gallon per acre or 3 ounces per 1,000 square feet. It appears to deter sucking insects (like spider mites) as well as the protein eating ants (like fire ants).

If you have a supply of chipped tree trimmings, and you have room to do it, you can compost that yourself. I've never composted them per se but supposedly the small limbs on trees have enough "greens" to allow the composting to work pretty well. I'd be inclined to add lots of clean horse manure and mix it up, but that's me. (Clean means no Picloram herbicide used in the horse feed - Picloram is a broadleaf killer persists forever it seems and will kill trees with roots under a lawn).

I am hearing really good things about molasses and have considered adding it to the program. I have a location problem. Because of the high desert climate (night temps drop below freezing early in the fall and last late into the spring), the local co-ops like to add methanol to the molasses so that it will remain liquid. What is the potential problems with the methanol as an additive in applying it to turf? If I take the 30 gallon drum I have down and have it filled (local cost is over $2/gal) and then add it into the spray tank to apply it over 10 Acres, can I do more harm than good?

treegal1
01-27-2009, 07:52 AM
I dont think that there will be any issues, are you just doing water and molasses???

Kiril
01-27-2009, 10:41 AM
There were probably better threads to jump into Bic. :)

bicmudpuppy
01-27-2009, 12:01 PM
There were probably better threads to jump into Bic. :)

Probably, but reading some of this, I see where you get some of the attitude you let spill over into the irrigation forum. I still don't agree with most of it. Your infatuation with the word sustainable cracks me up.

bicmudpuppy
01-27-2009, 12:04 PM
I dont think that there will be any issues, are you just doing water and molasses???

Not 100% sure yet. Maybe a wetting agent too, but the molasses should provide some of that as well. If I could lay hands on a good liquid humate or protein, that might be another addition. Budget crunches have me down a well (I was going to say up a tree, but the view isn't that pretty). I like sea weed/kelp products, but availability is going to be an issue.

phasthound
01-27-2009, 12:11 PM
Not 100% sure yet. Maybe a wetting agent too, but the molasses should provide some of that as well. If I could lay hands on a good liquid humate or protein, that might be another addition. Budget crunches have me down a well (I was going to say up a tree, but the view isn't that pretty). I like sea weed/kelp products, but availability is going to be an issue.

We handle several liquid humate products. TeraVita LC-12 (12% soluable humic acid), TeraVita LC-10 plus 7 (10% soluble humic acids with 7 naturally chelated micronutrients (B,Co,Cu,Fe,Mn,Mo,Zn). Also fish and kelp products.

Kiril
01-27-2009, 12:38 PM
Your infatuation with the word sustainable cracks me up.

Not an infatuation, more like cold hard realization of the issues we face.

treegal1
01-27-2009, 12:57 PM
I tried to be that hard core but some did not get the message, so I toned it down some.......KIRIL IS A GOOD GUY, IMO

Your infatuation with the word sustainable cracks me up.

Marcos
01-30-2009, 04:30 PM
Your infatuation with the word sustainable cracks me up.

Doesn't it now, bmp! :laugh:

Even to the extreme to where he feels obliged to proselytize to everyone else the way to run their personal livelihoods & businesses, if it doesn't correlate right in line with....."his"....agenda!

Kiril, with all of his coercive manipulative powers, would certainly qualify for a PR job with one of the socialist organizations that support today's oh-so fashionable no-brain, all-hype, man-made global climate change hoax.

Better get that job fast....before they change THEIR agenda............again! :laugh::laugh::laugh:

NattyLawn
01-30-2009, 05:01 PM
Doesn't it now, bmp! :laugh:

Even to the extreme to where he feels obliged to proselytize to everyone else the way to run their personal livelihoods & businesses, if it doesn't correlate right in line with....."his"....agenda!

Kiril, with all of his coercive manipulative powers, would certainly qualify for a PR job with one of the socialist organizations that support today's oh-so fashionable no-brain, all-hype, man-made global climate change hoax.

Better get that job fast....before they change THEIR agenda............again! :laugh::laugh::laugh:

You're funnier when you're busting rcreech and realgreen's balls.....

Marcos
01-30-2009, 05:37 PM
You're funnier when you're busting rcreech and realgreen's balls.....

Sorry to disappoint! :waving:

...must be having an "off" day! :rolleyes:

Kiril
01-30-2009, 11:08 PM
Even to the extreme to where he feels obliged to proselytize to everyone else the way to run their personal livelihoods & businesses, if it doesn't correlate right in line with....."his"....agenda!

Sorry if your "program" cannot stand up to the scrutiny of your piers. You have your "opinion", and I have mine. What makes yours any better than mine Marcos .... other than mine is more sustainable. :laugh:

Go back to the political forum where this kind of garbage is welcomed with open arms otherwise I might group you in with the likes of Rod.

Marcos
01-31-2009, 02:35 PM
Sorry if your "program" cannot stand up to the scrutiny of your piers. You have your "opinion", and I have mine. What makes yours any better than mine Marcos .... other than mine is more sustainable. :laugh:



Go to the rear of the class, Kiril! :laugh:
The only thing I have to worry about as far as piers are concerned, is whether or not our boat is firmly secured to them! :rolleyes: :laugh: :hammerhead:

And speaking of water, you can take your "sustainability agenda" and dump it down the porcelain circular file......only in terms of the way you try to push it onto everyone else!

Kiril
01-31-2009, 02:54 PM
And speaking of water, you can take your "sustainability agenda" and dump it down the porcelain circular file......only in terms of the way you try to push it onto everyone else!

It is called information and education. Now run off Marcos like a good boy, the political forum is missing you. :waving:

Marcos
01-31-2009, 03:30 PM
It is called information and education.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

No, Kiril...not the way you promote your specific agenda, and then proceed to tear apart anyone on here who may remotely and/or radically differ from what you may suggest to them, or others on here!

That's called "bullying your cause", in my book!:nono:


Get over yourself, Kiril, and stop trying to sidetrack this issue!

Ultimately....this Lawnsite Organic Lawn Care Forum doesn't revolve around YOU, or any one given person!
So stop trying to monopolize it's direction..... as if it "belongs" to "you"!


Watch!...Kiril can't stand not getting the 'last word' in...just like a spited woman...he'll be back! :laugh:

JDUtah
01-31-2009, 03:45 PM
No guys, this forum revolves around me... I thought you knew that?

Marcos
01-31-2009, 03:50 PM
No guys, this forum revolves around me... I thought you knew that?

Well, if you're the guy in the back-drop of your avatar, you may very well have adequate gravity to pull it off! :)

JDUtah
01-31-2009, 04:09 PM
Well, if you're the guy in the back-drop of your avatar, you may very well have adequate gravity to pull it off! :)

Lol, add 200 lbs and you might have an idea of how big my head is. ;)

Kiril
01-31-2009, 05:47 PM
Watch!...Kiril can't stand not getting the 'last word' in...just like a spited woman...he'll be back!

If I'm not mistaken Marcos, you are the one who keeps digging here, no?

What is your problem anyway? Seems to me you doth protest too much ...... wonder why?

I stated my opinion about the use the feed grains in an "organic" program, nothing more, nothing less. Not my problem that your program uses them. Get over yourself Marcos, not everyone thinks like you .... some of us actually try to make a difference instead of pretending to.

Kiril
01-31-2009, 06:10 PM
BTW Marcos, I invite you to read through this thread again and see who instigated what. You took personal offense to my position on feed grains and thus started your B.S. personal comments directed at me. The only reason I can think why you have acted in such a manner is because you are ashamed of your program because you know the points I, and others, have made are valid.

Please continue with the personal attacks Marcos, you are getting close to Gerry status in this thread.

treegal1
01-31-2009, 07:32 PM
did you say instigation??? I am over here, I think I am the one your looking for ???

lets take stock. so far this thread I have beat up some grain users, raged out the rope crowd, oh I had to do more damage than just that???? who else did I alienate so far.....
did I push JD around some in this thread to???? its been so long, am i going soft now.....:laugh::laugh::laugh:

just so you know I am human too, I found some great pellets of mixed feed, 80% alf. and some other waste materials, mostly rice hulls and penuts. 50 lbs for under 9$ a bag no salt added and its got some molasses and yucca. its for here almost like some of the northern guys summer feed, for new lawns, some of mine and some of the other "locos" around

JDUtah
01-31-2009, 08:16 PM
did I push JD around some in this thread to???? its been so long, am i going soft now.....:laugh::laugh::laugh:

*goes to corner to cry* :dancing:

Prolawnservice
01-31-2009, 09:27 PM
Marcos,

Do you seriously believe that krill doesn't have a point? I use some meals in my program too, you have to do what you have to do to make a living. I do however, have plans to eliminate them, or at least greatly reduce them in the future. If you can tap into a waste stream, and have the ability to, why not? I understand if you can't, but you have to admit it wouldn't be a bad idea, right?

Mr. Nice
02-01-2009, 02:33 PM
Ditto..........What Pro said.

Considering we live on a over populated planet with pollution and food supply Issue's that are not likely to go away any time soon?, The use of food grade materials is a waste of energy and resources to use them as fertilizer's and such when there are other waste streams to tap from to serve those purposes.


Do what you have to do to make a living but let's be honest here...

Marcos
02-02-2009, 12:49 AM
Marcos,

Do you seriously believe that krill doesn't have a point? I use some meals in my program too, you have to do what you have to do to make a living. I do however, have plans to eliminate them, or at least greatly reduce them in the future. If you can tap into a waste stream, and have the ability to, why not? I understand if you can't, but you have to admit it wouldn't be a bad idea, right?

Business people have the right to run their businesses the way they choose to....period.

If this specific market were to change at some point in time to where more and more folks' attitudes were to shift suddenly towards compost for whatever reason(s), well then I'll happily shift right along with them!

But the fact of the matter is, I'm simply NOT planning on ever putting the cart out in front of the horse! That's stupid business sense, people! :nono:

I've seen a couple other people try to start composting-only lawn/landscape-oriented businesses around this corner of south western Ohio through the years, even up until recently, only to fall flat on their faces bankrupt. One fellow ended up divorced, too.
And maybe these two business owners had the same feelings & sentiments about sustainability that obsess people like Kiril, I honestly don't know for sure.
Hell, they could've made it the cornerstone of their business model from the get-go for all I know! All I know for sure....is that they BOTH failed miserably, probably because they failed to listen carefully to the needs of their customers/prospects, and instead tried to shove down everyones' throats......"what's best for them". :nono:

Marcos
02-02-2009, 01:10 AM
Ditto..........What Pro said.

Considering we live on a over populated planet with pollution and food supply Issue's that are not likely to go away any time soon?, The use of food grade materials is a waste of energy and resources to use them as fertilizer's and such when there are other waste streams to tap from to serve those purposes.


Do what you have to do to make a living but let's be honest here...

Mr Nice,

From what it says on your bio it sounds like you're trying to take the big leap over from chemicals this winter, am I correct?

Have you been gradually "bridging" toward organics over a period of time (incorporating some aspects of it into an existing chemical program) or did this decision come to you at one fell-swoop?

And was this decision ultimately yours to make, or was it more centered around where you feel your markets' sentiment is shifting? :confused:

Mr. Nice
02-02-2009, 07:17 AM
marcos, no,no sort of,no yes,no

NattyLawn
02-02-2009, 11:05 AM
Business people have the right to run their businesses the way they choose to....period.

If this specific market were to change at some point in time to where more and more folks' attitudes were to shift suddenly towards compost for whatever reason(s), well then I'll happily shift right along with them!

But the fact of the matter is, I'm simply NOT planning on ever putting the cart out in front of the horse! That's stupid business sense, people! :nono:

I've seen a couple other people try to start composting-only lawn/landscape-oriented businesses around this corner of south western Ohio through the years, even up until recently, only to fall flat on their faces bankrupt. One fellow ended up divorced, too.
And maybe these two business owners had the same feelings & sentiments about sustainability that obsess people like Kiril, I honestly don't know for sure.
Hell, they could've made it the cornerstone of their business model from the get-go for all I know! All I know for sure....is that they BOTH failed miserably, probably because they failed to listen carefully to the needs of their customers/prospects, and instead tried to shove down everyones' throats......"what's best for them". :nono:

Marcos,

Wasn't the gist of the argument with Kiril about using meals as fertilizer instead of waste streams? So instead of using meals, why not composted poultry manure? That would support farmers as well as you claim to be doing my buying meals that could be used as feed. Not everyone can incorporate compost into their programs. It's a fact, but you can make up for that in other areas. That's it....

Prolawnservice
02-02-2009, 01:37 PM
Business people have the right to run their businesses the way they choose to....period.
For now until people finally stand up for themselves and stop businesses from gaining by destroying the environment. Businesses and business people need to be responsible for their actions period..
If this specific market were to change at some point in time to where more and more folks' attitudes were to shift suddenly towards compost for whatever reason(s), well then I'll happily shift right along with them!:
Why not be proactive instead of reactive?
But the fact of the matter is, I'm simply NOT planning I didn't say you need to use compost only just consider using a waste stream as part of your program, that has to make some sense to you, or no?

ICT Bill
02-02-2009, 11:25 PM
Business people have the right to run their businesses the way they choose to....period.

If this specific market were to change at some point in time to where more and more folks' attitudes were to shift suddenly towards compost for whatever reason(s), well then I'll happily shift right along with them!

But the fact of the matter is, I'm simply NOT planning on ever putting the cart out in front of the horse! That's stupid business sense, people! :nono:

I've seen a couple other people try to start composting-only lawn/landscape-oriented businesses around this corner of south western Ohio through the years, even up until recently, only to fall flat on their faces bankrupt. One fellow ended up divorced, too.
And maybe these two business owners had the same feelings & sentiments about sustainability that obsess people like Kiril, I honestly don't know for sure.
Hell, they could've made it the cornerstone of their business model from the get-go for all I know! All I know for sure....is that they BOTH failed miserably, probably because they failed to listen carefully to the needs of their customers/prospects, and instead tried to shove down everyones' throats......"what's best for them". :nono:

I have to admit that I have seen many with great vision that fail. A good idea that no one knows about can, could, will probably fail as a venture.

It's just the way it works, people cannot use or buy your greatest thing since sliced bread if they do not know about it

The fact of the matter is, currently, people are looking for lower cost alternatives with less impact to their family and environment.

I have been asking every caller I speak to about this spring (2009) and if their business is growing or shrinking, in almost every instance they have said they are going to expand by 20% or 30%

who are they getting the business from? 18 to 45 year old mothers that do not want to poison their family or pets.

Pristine1
02-03-2009, 09:35 AM
No one. Common sense tells you that using food crops as fertilizer is ignorant at best .... sorry if that offends you, but hey man, open your eyes. :dizzy:


Kiril, I appreciate your deep feelings about all of this, but I have to say that while reading through the thread here, it gets harder to take you seriously because of the confrontational approach you take. I am no expert on organic lawn care....thats why I have been reading so much of this! However, I think that ridding the environment of the chems that are currently being used, with any organic (sustainable or not) practice is a great first step. As this side of the green industry grows, there will be more sustainable practices that become available.

Nothing personal here, just some food for thought.http://www.lawnsite.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Kiril
02-03-2009, 10:25 AM
Kiril, I appreciate your deep feelings about all of this, but I have to say that while reading through the thread here, it gets harder to take you seriously because of the confrontational approach you take. I am no expert on organic lawn care....thats why I have been reading so much of this! However, I think that ridding the environment of the chems that are currently being used, with any organic (sustainable or not) practice is a great first step. As this side of the green industry grows, there will be more sustainable practices that become available.

Nothing personal here, just some food for thought.http://www.lawnsite.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Welcome.

I can agree that at times my statements may appear confrontational, however at times merely expressing a dissenting opinion is enough to set people off. I am not one to beat around the bush. I spell it out straight as I see it, on this forum, and to my clients as well. Does that mean I lose work because of it ... you bet. Does that mean I piss people off on this forum ... you bet.

There are a few people that I do take issue with, Marcos is not one of them normally, but we have butted heads before, and will probably again. When people start slinging around political opinion instead of just addressing the issues at hand, it does no one any good. There is are many reasons why I despise politics, and this thread is example of one of them.

Perhaps I should just walk away when people start throwing insults in my direction, and at times I do, and some times I don't. I don't think anyone likes to be pushed around, and I am certainly no exception.

Anyhow, welcome to the forum and here's to hoping you can glean some good information from this forum. :drinkup:

Marcos
02-03-2009, 12:39 PM
Marcos,

Wasn't the gist of the argument with Kiril about using meals as fertilizer instead of waste streams? So instead of using meals, why not composted poultry manure? That would support farmers as well as you claim to be doing my buying meals that could be used as feed. Not everyone can incorporate compost into their programs. It's a fact, but you can make up for that in other areas. That's it....


I don't disagree with you whatsoever in regards to the overall value of composted chicken manure.
What you, and some others on this thread may not completely understand, is that... "compost derived from chicken manure"....is NOT NEARLY as marketable to MRS. Joe Bloe, as... "compost derived from leaves & horse manure is!


Ohio has become world renowned for its growing # of HUGE egg farms, almost all of which are owned & operated by folks of Eastern European desecnt, and some of which have run into deep scutiny in the past couple of decades through organizations like PITA because of their questionable caging practices.
Most of these farms are literally overrun with chicken sh**, to the point where they've had to haul alot of it off-site to avoid charges being filed by adjacent neighbors.

Unfortunately, the closest one of these farms to our operation is about 125 miles to the north.
Last February, I priced a semi-load of it delivered & dumped. It was not cost-efficient whatsoever.

Marcos
02-03-2009, 12:58 PM
For now until people finally stand up for themselves and stop businesses from gaining by destroying the environment. Businesses and business people need to be responsible for their actions period..

What? And take a chance at becoming another business martyr for the sake of "sustainability"?? :confused:
No thanks, king-o-sa-bee! :waving:
We'll wait for that wholesale change to come to us, if it comes at all!

I didn't say you need to use compost only just consider using a waste stream as part of your program, that has to make some sense to you, or no?

Go back and re-read this thread, Prolawn.
9 years ago we almost immediately began offering composting (after a few demands for it necessitated building an outside facility.)
Now, almost 1/3 of our customers get compost as (at least) part of their program.

In our marketing material, both programs are highlighted equally in terms of space and color, with some mention of the advantages of each program to the homeowner.

Marcos
02-03-2009, 01:52 PM
I have to admit that I have seen many with great vision that fail. A good idea that no one knows about can, could, will probably fail as a venture.

It's just the way it works, people cannot use or buy your greatest thing since sliced bread if they do not know about it

The fact of the matter is, currently, people are looking for lower cost alternatives with less impact to their family and environment.

I have been asking every caller I speak to about this spring (2009) and if their business is growing or shrinking, in almost every instance they have said they are going to expand by 20% or 30%

who are they getting the business from? 18 to 45 year old mothers that do not want to poison their family or pets.


I hate to be the one to break this to y'all, but there's a growing # of folks going green simply because...... it's "fashionable" to do so.

Yes...these are the types of people I'm talking about here in s.w. Ohio, the ones that typically own $400-$800K homes (big $$$ for the midwest), work for P&G, GE or the medical field, and send their kids to private schools.

These Joe & Jane Bloes' indeed want to be greener & save the polar bears, keep the world a better place for their children & children's children, blah blah blah, etc...
All of them put out their (usually....half-full) red recycling bins every week like it's a religion. :)
We've also noticed a few Prius' and other hybrids running around, too, though not as many as I thought I'd see, yet. Unlike places like N.Y city, the Atlantic seaboard, California, & the pacific NW where trains, streetcars & buses have really taken a strong foothold, Ohio by-in-large is still ruled by the automobile.

My point is...
Change is coming in the way folks generally think about the environment.

I think this 1st Midwestern wave may be indeed somewhat... "cosmetic".. in nature, but subsequent waves may be more "genuine" over time.

But I don't think it has so much to do with what people are told or even lectured about the world's dwindling resources.
I think it has more to do with the way people are brought up, from one generation to another!

Our American grandparents (or great-grandparents) were extremely frugal people, very careful with conserving what they had.
This certainly had something to do with life during the Great Depression, no doubt.
But it also had alot to do with the fact that a larger % of Americans still lived on farms, or in rural areas in that period!!

Fast forward one generation....

Many baby-boomer kids frankly grew up to be spoiled-rotten brats.
Life was so plentiful and rich after WWII, alot of America got away from its rich rural roots.
A whole generation...(and the two subsequent generations up until now).. was essentially lost to the mind-set tied to driving 10 miles out of the way to get fast food for dinner. :dizzy:

_________________

Fast forward to the new millennium...and all the hope of this new generation of "green" American kids..:clapping:

What's it going to take for attitudes to REALLY change in this nation, regarding "SUSTAINABILITY"??
(Hint: Who STILL makes the BUYING DECISIONS, people? :waving:)
Frankly, this society won't change toward the "green" direction, until the lion's share of the now-retiring baby boomers begin to slowly die-off.

dishboy
02-03-2009, 05:44 PM
I found a local waste stream product for my spring application. It is also within five miles of home. Am I one of the good guys now?

bicmudpuppy
02-03-2009, 09:49 PM
Only one thing I want to point out about our friend Marco's last major rant.

If marketability and profitability of organic lawn care can be measured because an LCO w/ advertised organic practices failed, then there is no hope for the business of lawn care, because more LCO's fail than those that succeed. I am back in the artificial ecology of golf again, but I have lived the LCO world from an irrigation side. Irrigation is the same way. More guys fail than those that succeed. This happens because the industry is easy to get into, w/ very little capital investment. It is NOT the cake walk everyone thinks it is. The more I explore the possibilities of organics, the more I see the organic solution being LESS expensive than the mainstream synthetic, if for no other reason than it is natural and will be more turf/plant friendly than the synthetic equivalent.

bicmudpuppy
02-04-2009, 01:31 AM
did you say instigation??? I am over here, I think I am the one your looking for ???

lets take stock. so far this thread I have beat up some grain users, raged out the rope crowd, oh I had to do more damage than just that???? who else did I alienate so far.....
did I push JD around some in this thread to???? its been so long, am i going soft now.....:laugh::laugh::laugh:

just so you know I am human too, I found some great pellets of mixed feed, 80% alf. and some other waste materials, mostly rice hulls and penuts. 50 lbs for under 9$ a bag no salt added and its got some molasses and yucca. its for here almost like some of the northern guys summer feed, for new lawns, some of mine and some of the other "locos" around
I'm going to "step" in "it" and ask what may be a really ignorant question. Especially for an educated horticulture/agronomy type, but................

From what I'm reading, you guys are paying $15-20/hundred weight for organic mulch/composting materials for direct application. None of it is going to test even close to 10%N. Why is a processed sludge like milorganite or the equivalent I'm hearing about out of TX not as good or better? Milorganite was at $8.50/bag last fall and the TX material was quoted to me (AFTER I ordered) at $7.50 per bag. What am I missing in this part of the equation?

JDUtah
02-04-2009, 01:34 AM
I'm going to "step" in "it" and ask what may be a really ignorant question. Especially for an educated horticulture/agronomy type, but................

From what I'm reading, you guys are paying $15-20/hundred weight for organic mulch/composting materials for direct application. None of it is going to test even close to 10%N. Why is a processed sludge like milorganite or the equivalent I'm hearing about out of TX not as good or better? Milorganite was at $8.50/bag last fall and the TX material was quoted to me (AFTER I ordered) at $7.50 per bag. What am I missing in this part of the equation?

$15-$20/ton (roughly 500 lbs dry weight)... That's $1.50 to $2.00 per "bag". Organic N can range from 1% to 5% (dry weight)... then add the soil building properties... and the local production... Wanna go really local? Produce it on site and people pay you to take their yard waste... you can be like Tree...

Tree makes her own compost = income not expense. I will get there someday Tree. :)

treegal1
02-04-2009, 01:43 AM
its more of a supplement, and not the base of the supplemental feed, bio sludge is a large part of that, my use rate is about, .5 lbs per K, just as a stop gap, for some start up lawns that are in need of a fix. the rest is sludge.....about 10-12 lbs per K

also we dont really think of it in N or NPK we think more in terms of proteins and brix,OM, amino's and such, and with the yucca some wetting, short term.........

again this is for a stop gap only and not the best thing to do but..... got to keep them green, I may even burn up some old urea prills;)

JDUtah
02-04-2009, 01:48 AM
ignore my last post. I jumped the gun. :hammerhead:

bicmudpuppy
02-04-2009, 01:49 AM
Yucca is purchased as juice/gel? What kind of price point are we talking? Also, I mentioned I like seaweed/kelp, but landlocked in the mountains, what is a good replacement or source?

treegal1
02-04-2009, 01:53 AM
ignore my last post. I jumped the gun. :hammerhead:

not so fast you got the idea, but still also have to say in the end if the lawns not green then its not going to be green cash. again this is for some winter start up yards that need a 911 transfusion...

almost any water plant will work the same as sea weed, you need some pond plants or water lettuce for your holding pond, that and a good used garbage disposal

bicmudpuppy
02-04-2009, 01:58 AM
not so fast you got the idea, but still also have to say in the end if the lawns not green then its not going to be green cash. again this is for some winter start up yards that need a 911 transfusion...

almost any water plant will work the same as sea weed, you need some pond plants or water lettuce for your holding pond, that and a good used garbage disposal

I turn any water lettuce loose into that pond, and I better have on HUGE disposal to grind with very quickly. Do you think 1/3 of an acre coverage in lettuce would dent the PH of that water?

treegal1
02-04-2009, 01:59 AM
Yucca is purchased as juice/gel? What kind of price point are we talking? Also, I mentioned I like seaweed/kelp, but landlocked in the mountains, what is a good replacement or source?
most likely used as a binder in the animal feed and as a digestive aid. also it has to be purchased by the pallet so one pallet for me, pigs get 8 bags and goat gets 2 bags that lets 50 bags go to the lawns, lucky them, one part animal feed and 24 parts humanure from local source. this and compost.


get some water plants, duck weed with fix N from the air/ water??? got some paper some place...... and its 7% N that works real fast.

after the great fires of "09" we have a small deficit of compost we are working out at this very time.....

JDUtah
02-04-2009, 02:00 AM
not so fast you got the idea, but still also have to say in the end if the lawns not green then its not going to be green cash. again this is for some winter start up yards that need a 911 transfusion...

almost any water plant will work the same as sea weed, you need some pond plants or water lettuce for your holding pond, that and a good used garbage disposal

I see. If only there was a tromel that had a second stage that automatically mixed in a desired amount of "steroids"... hint hint ;)

treegal1
02-04-2009, 02:01 AM
I turn any water lettuce loose into that pond, and I better have on HUGE disposal to grind with very quickly. Do you think 1/3 of an acre coverage in lettuce would dent the PH of that water?
yes, you will see it go down at night and up during the day.JD will jump in and say why

treegal1
02-04-2009, 02:05 AM
I see. If only there was a tromel that had a second stage that automatically mixed in a desired amount of "steroids"... hint hint ;)what ???? long day say more slowly........

JDUtah
02-04-2009, 02:05 AM
yes, you will see it go down at night and up during the day.JD will jump in and say why

might take a couple days... it did peak interest. :)

bicmudpuppy
02-04-2009, 02:06 AM
Water Lettuce would provide the same or very similar benefits to kelp? One or two plants, and give it 30 days and I would have to harvest to keep the pond 50%+ open. I could harvest to a drying rack, pulverize and then re-hydrate and spray. Sounds WAY to easy. Labor intensive, etc. but way to easy compared to PAYING for a Panasea or other kelp based wetting agent.

JDUtah
02-04-2009, 02:08 AM
what ???? long day say more slowly........

pm sent....

treegal1
02-04-2009, 02:11 AM
dont dry it just use a macerator pump or like i said 5 hp commercial garbage disposal. I got mine for free with a sink, big one that takes 220V.

oh JD think about it the CO2, sun and all that.....Carbonic acid ???

treegal1
02-04-2009, 02:15 AM
Combine the screening stage with the mixing stage... and do away with the concrete mixer?

That way, you only move the post once for both processes... so shovel/scoop/dump the compost into the screener... and the end result? A finished 'custom' mix of compost + additives that is ready to apply...

Barry might have something like that large scale already for his stuff?
the stuff i blend is usually screened already, even the worm casts if i add that, and at 250 lbs per shot what do i need more for, then its into 5 gallon pails and off to the races

JDUtah
02-04-2009, 02:19 AM
I was thinking Carbonic Acid... but wanted to dig into it a little more before anything. Think day/night microbe activity effects it too?

Plant takes CO2 out during the day, not at night (assumption, but makes sense)

Looks like I didn't get that last post deleted in time...

treegal1
02-04-2009, 02:24 AM
eh, if i want it it the compost i will dump and stir with the excavator and then screen. or like i was saying, make a fast stop gap mix with some sludge and "feed" then its cement mixer, 250 at a crack, 4 minutes on each run, not that big a deal........

I only know about the ph from my little pond but a almost one point swing in 1500 gallons says something is working.......

Kiril
02-04-2009, 02:27 AM
You can also add some not completely composted manure to your finished compost to get your N up if needed ... or blood meal. Blood is good. :)

JDUtah
02-04-2009, 02:30 AM
Question, do you guys just test the compost (total N) and add based on N%'s of the feeds, meals, etc? Or do you even need to test (have a basic %N of your finished compost)?

treegal1
02-04-2009, 02:34 AM
yep got that in mind, manure leachate on tap as we speak, methane digest left overs mmmmm ammonium.

JDUtah
02-04-2009, 02:38 AM
yep got that in mind, manure leachate on tap as we speak, methane digest left overs mmmmm ammonium.

wow... just wow... you aren't even letting it get away in the air or runoff... again wow...