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B & B Yardscape
12-14-2008, 02:56 PM
I have had my web site up for years and get very good results from it. I get an honest 4-10 hits a day, everyday. It is used mostly for information about what we do and how we do it. I use it as a reference for pictures of my work to potential customers.

A lot of people don't like Frames. But I have found that it is the easiest and best way to build a site. I keep common information on the side (like links) and top (like logo, phone & address) and the main page is the only one that needs to change if needed.

I have given a lot of "constructive critizium" to many of the web sites that have asked for it on Lawn & Plow site. Give it to me I can take it. And in the end it is my site and if I don't like your statement, I don't have to listen to you. Anyway, check it out and let me know what you think.

WebMan
12-14-2008, 06:51 PM
1st thing is I couldn't get your links menu to work right, a set of sublinks would pop up and not go away so I ended up with links on top of links that then didn't work.
My question when you say "hits" is do you mean contacts from potential customers, or unique first time visitors or "hits"?
If you mean "hits" my one page look just gave you your 4 hits or more, if you mean unique visitors compare that to contacts, the real question is how many contacts do you get each day? If they don't fill out a form, e-amil you, or call then the visits don't really count ("hits" and even unique visitors can be bots or anything if you don't use a good stats program and compare all the numbers and unique IP's or browsers (if you use cookies)

I can give you a full critique when I have time but the links thing means I'll have to find a browser where your links buttons will work.

Team-Green L&L
12-14-2008, 08:01 PM
Same problem as above with the links menu. I can't even begin to give my critique on frames, as you have the impression that people simply don't "like" frames , when that is not the reason frames are garbage. There are an assortment of reasons to stay away from frames, but the main one in my book is that they are SEO unfriendly to say the least.

I wish people would understand that there is a majority population who ONLY use Google for web surfing. Half of them think that Google is a browser itself and have no clue what a search engine is. That is certainly a shame for those who build sites that are not optimized for search and are full of invalid code. That is also the reason that large corporations spend 100's of thousands a year to maintain top positioning in strong keywords. Mind you that we're talking national search queries and a ton of PPC ads, but I've seen some 5 figure budgets for SEO before. The bottom line is that a website without marketing is just as bad as a truck without lettering or a store without a sign.

B & B Yardscape
12-15-2008, 10:02 AM
There are 4 pop up link menus on the left. I have had problems with them in the past staying up too long, but when you move to another pop up they went away.
The program I used to build them, I am not very happy with.

When I say people don't like frames, what I mean to say is that web page designer people don't like them. The main reason is they think they are hard for search engines to see and some browsers don't support frames. People that use the pages don't really notice.

Last year I read a post by, I believe TeamGreen. It mentioned validation. I went through and validated all of my pages including the header and links page. Found a lot of code that I typed wrong and small errors.

Another thread turned me on to Dashboard - Google Analytics. That is where I get my information about hits from. 83% is direct traffic, 11% from Search engines, and the rest from Referring Sites. 92.6% are New Visitors. The day before this post I had 9. Day of I had 19. For each person that visits, it results in 1 visit and XX page views. That is a benefit of Frames. It only shows 1 visitor so you get more accurate results of how many visitors you have.

I will admit that some of those visitors are from members of Plow and Lawn site checking it out due to posts that I have made.

I use Internet explore. Anyone else having problems with the pop up links.

I have said before that I think it is crazy for a landscape company to want to be #1 on Google whenever a search for landscaping comes up. My hits come from people getting my web address from the phone book, my trucks, etc and going their directly.

What I'm really looking for is input on content.

Thanks

Kiril
12-15-2008, 11:41 AM
There are 4 pop up link menus on the left. I have had problems with them in the past staying up too long, but when you move to another pop up they went away. The program I used to build them, I am not very happy with.

One word ... coolTip (http://www.acooltip.com/)

When I say people don't like frames, what I mean to say is that web page designer people don't like them. The main reason is they think they are hard for search engines to see and some browsers don't support frames. People that use the pages don't really notice.

You can't serious believe people don't notice? Dude, there are good reasons for using frames, your site is NOT one of them. Look around man, how many sites do you see using frames in that manner? :rolleyes:

That is a benefit of Frames. It only shows 1 visitor so you get more accurate results of how many visitors you have.

That is ridiculous and absolutely not true. Most webstats packages provided by your typical hosting service tracks a mess of data on every single file that is publicly accessible.

What I'm really looking for is input on content.

On a quick look, ignoring the most annoying frames and questionable menu system, the content on some of the pages is too cluttered, not well organized, and some of the images are WAY too big (file size).

B & B Yardscape
12-16-2008, 08:50 AM
I first started building web pages in 1994. Dial up was the only option. Something called Gopher was popular. My thought was if I could reduce the amount of data that had to be down loaded everytime a page was loaded it would be faster for people to view my page. Frames were the answer. Put all the links on the side. Load them once. Put the logo, phone, address, etc at the top. Load it once. When a link was clicked the main page would change. It wouldn't have to load the links, logo, etc each time.

If I want to ad a page. I build the page and then ad a single link to it in the links frame page. If a standard web page wants to ad a page, a link to it has to be added to every page that has links on it.

My main pages get hits during searches. When someone opens it, that main page opens and looks just like a normal page. At the bottom of each main page I have a phrase and a link that says if you don't see frames please click here. That link takes them to my main frame based page.

Kiril: How are frames annoying to you? My site is different because everyone else has the standard layout. Like I said, people that think frames are dumb, don't like it. People that go there for information about my business, don't notice and if they do, they reconize it as different.

I wrote all the code by hand for my site except for the script and the menu tabs. I like the look of the drop down links, but not the function. Like I said, it works on my computer and I have never gotten any complaints. If it doesn't work on yours, what browser are you using and do you have any suggestions on what program to use to build it.

Kiril
12-16-2008, 10:03 AM
I first started building web pages in 1994. Dial up was the only option. Something called Gopher was popular. My thought was if I could reduce the amount of data that had to be down loaded everytime a page was loaded it would be faster for people to view my page. Frames were the answer. Put all the links on the side. Load them once. Put the logo, phone, address, etc at the top. Load it once. When a link was clicked the main page would change. It wouldn't have to load the links, logo, etc each time.

You wouldn't have too, that is what the cache is for.

If I want to ad a page. I build the page and then ad a single link to it in the links frame page. If a standard web page wants to ad a page, a link to it has to be added to every page that has links on it.

In your case, since you are using a JS menu system, that would (should) not be the case, assuming your JS is contained in a file. Second, if you are not linking your JS (as you should be), that could also be easily avoided using SSI, PHP, ASP, etc....

My main pages get hits during searches. When someone opens it, that main page opens and looks just like a normal page. At the bottom of each main page I have a phrase and a link that says if you don't see frames please click here. That link takes them to my main frame based page.

So in other words, they get a page without a menu system? People shouldn't be forced to find a small link at the bottom of your main frame in order to view your website the way it was intended to be viewed.

Kiril: How are frames annoying to you?

Everything. When I started coding, my first website was also frames, and if I am not mistaken, the same menu system. I quickly learned the error of my ways. There are far better, more elegant ways to get the "frame behavior" without having to resort to frames. Personally I don't much care for building static HTML sites, frame set or not. Too maintenance intensive and highly restrictive.

My site is different because everyone else has the standard layout.

Your site still has the standard layout, yet now people have to deal with the frames (eg. the frame bars, the scroll bars, etc..) and you cannot have any design flow between frames.

Team-Green L&L
12-16-2008, 12:09 PM
I say people don't like frames, what I mean to say is that web page designer people don't like them. The main reason is they think they are hard for search engines to see and some browsers don't support frames. People that use the pages don't really notice.

You just named the main reason to stay away from frames. I don't need to educate you because you already know.

Last year I read a post by, I believe TeamGreen. It mentioned validation. I went through and validated all of my pages including the header and links page. Found a lot of code that I typed wrong and small errors.

Valid code is the "Holy Grail" IMO. Even though browsers are being VERY lenient at this time, that will not be the case in the near future. Google is definitely tightening their belts on valid code and valid code has been proven to increase organic results.

Another thread turned me on to Dashboard - Google Analytics. That is where I get my information about hits from. 83% is direct traffic, 11% from Search engines, and the rest from Referring Sites. 92.6% are New Visitors. The day before this post I had 9. Day of I had 19. For each person that visits, it results in 1 visit and XX page views. That is a benefit of Frames. It only shows 1 visitor so you get more accurate results of how many visitors you have.

I think it's safe to assume MOST of your visitors are not converting (turning into sales) 5000 visitors that never convert are just a waste of bandwidth and money. Put a goal on your contact form or page from your Google Analytics Dashboard. Set the goal to be triggered when someone access your contact us page or clicks on the submit button. That is what you are truly after...SALES!

I have said before that I think it is crazy for a landscape company to want to be #1 on Google whenever a search for landscaping comes up. My hits come from people getting my web address from the phone book, my trucks, etc and going their directly.

You can either pay for a website and SEO or pay more and spend more time in printing, distribution, third-party fees, and other advertising needs or you can invest in an online presence. Both mediums work just fine. I wouldn't want to invest in a website to get online markets and advertise it in print heavily (wrong market). I use both because print media reaches a different audience than digital media does. I am after "the whole pie"

What I'm really looking for is input on content.


Thanks

Create some off-site content like articles, press releases, and blog-comments, posts, and entries. Add your link to some of the keywords that you want positioning in (try not to waste links from anchor text bearing your company name). If you do a Google search for DoFollow Blogs and leave a good comment you will be rewarded with a backlink.

Content is great, but have great content!

JDUtah
12-16-2008, 01:46 PM
Kiril,

Do you use php at all?

Kiril
12-16-2008, 02:11 PM
Kiril,

Do you use php at all?

Extensively.

JDUtah
12-16-2008, 02:58 PM
Extensively.

Thought so.

Any book suggestions for css and php?

Kiril
12-16-2008, 03:02 PM
Any book suggestions for css and php?

Eric Meyer for CSS, no recommendation for PHP.
I self taught myself using web resources, manuals, specifications, and ALOT of trial and error.
Course it helps to have some background programming experience.

JDUtah
12-16-2008, 03:15 PM
Thanks bunches... :)

pullingrass
12-16-2008, 04:38 PM
All feedback is needed!

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