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treegal1
12-17-2008, 07:21 PM
Great for erosion mixes and adding nitrogen to your soil, fixing approximately 200 lb/acre. Very dense growth, providing great weed competition, and reseeds well. Tolerates a broad range of soil conditions, mowing and continues to grow as long as it has water. Fragrant flowers are purplish-pink and progressively bloom for a long period of time, more than any other clover. Flower attracts bees and beneficials. Low-growing, up to 2' tall. Makes a great forage crop. Can take temperatures down to 15°F and needs only a minimum of 8"-10" of rain per year. Seed at 6-10 lb/acre, 1/4-1 lb/1000 sq ft

muddstopper
12-17-2008, 10:39 PM
Tree,
Durana clover is the only clover I know of that claims anywhere close to 200lbs of N per year and I believe they only claim 180lbsN. Still, even those numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt. While legumes do have the ability to fixate N from the air, the published rates are for ideal growing conditions. In less than ideal growing conditions that legume might not fixate even 50% of the published numbers. In poor growing conditions, and especially if the clover in harvested for a crop, you might not even fixate 25% of the N the clover needs to grow, and if harvested, actually see a decline in N levels in the soil.

I love clover in my roadside seeding. Fast germination, spreads fast, controls erosion, excellent nurse crop, and the permanate grass can use all the N the clover can supply. Hard to see any downside to using clover, unless of course its in somebodies lawn, then everybody wants to b%t$h

DUSTYCEDAR
12-17-2008, 10:45 PM
IT also will not do well in high traffic i have found in some cases
i planted white clover

NattyLawn
12-17-2008, 11:16 PM
I have a few customers that love clover. If it didn't bring bees to sting them or their kids it would be seeded more, especially on organic lawns.

Marcos
12-17-2008, 11:30 PM
All types of clover are edible, too! :)

http://www.bio.brandeis.edu/fieldbio/Edible_plants/RedClover/RedClover.html

Clovers in general are healthy to eat in any way, basically: in salad, as a cooked green, ground to flour, or blended with another tea.

Clover is high in protein! The most common things to eat on the Clover are the flowerheads and the leaves, but are easier to eat if soaked for about an hour or boiled.

stimpy
12-18-2008, 06:58 AM
Muddstopper can turfgrass get the nitrogen from the clover. Its stored in the clovers nodule ?

Kiril
12-18-2008, 08:28 AM
I just ordered a bunch for a cover crop in an orchard I manage.

GaGolfSup
12-18-2008, 09:16 AM
Anybody ever use it in their garden? I have been thinking about seeding my garden with it and planting in between it come springtime. Will it compete too much with the crops?

DUSTYCEDAR
12-18-2008, 09:38 AM
IT WILL BE THERE FOR EVER
do you till each season? if so watch out
i like the idea but it could get out of hand
let us know if it works for ya

GaGolfSup
12-18-2008, 09:41 AM
I'm experimenting with no till. I think what I will try is some clover in the tomato beds...I can plant plants that are taller than the clover so as to not compete for sunlight...Who knows? I'm always thinking, but it seems I change my mind constantly...

ICT Bill
12-18-2008, 10:08 AM
I'm experimenting with no till. I think what I will try is some clover in the tomato beds...I can plant plants that are taller than the clover so as to not compete for sunlight...Who knows? I'm always thinking, but it seems I change my mind constantly...

Seed annual rye, actually Italian rye, same genus different species. The roots can go down 3 to 4 feet even in heavy clay. The roots provide organic matter over time and a tunnel, if you will, for other roots to travel.

If you bio prime the seed the good guys will be spread all over your area 3 feet deep, try and do that with compost teas or compost without a rototiller

I have also seen Diazon radishes seeded when you want to kick the organic matter up a notch, they will grow 4 to 6 inches in diameter and 12 to 18 inches long, they will travel through compacted soil easily. The perfect UN-rototiller

Prolawnservice
12-18-2008, 11:19 AM
Peas and beans work well around tomatoes and you get the added benifit of additional food. We had 7' tall silver queen corn this year with pole beans growing up it, no fertilizer, except compost.

Smallaxe
12-18-2008, 12:22 PM
In the garden I like to plant a raised bed of peas, as early as the soil warms enough then after the danger of frost put warm crop plants in amongst them. As the peas finish up their season with the oncoming hot weather and die back the tomatoes are able to scavenve what ever the decaying peas can provide, by the time production rolls along.

I would not use clover in the garden because it will become another noxious weed covering the suface with aggressive tenacity. Annual rye is better or for permanent pathways fescues perhaps. I still prefer a heavy mulch application more than anything for pathways.

I really wish I could think about gardening right now without just getting depressed. Oh, well - only 4 or 5 months left to go. :)

GaGolfSup
12-18-2008, 01:24 PM
Yeah peas are probably the way to go....Clover intrigued me because it is so dense and will keep out other weeds. And attracting bees is always a good thing....My pumpkins last year had tons of big beautiful blooms, but never produced fruit...the only thing I figure is lack of pollination...Is clover really that invasive? The heat of the summer really seems to knock it back here...Just thinking out loud...

Kiril
12-18-2008, 01:27 PM
Is clover really that invasive?

Yes it can be, some of it extremely so.

muddstopper
12-18-2008, 11:03 PM
Not all clovers are prennials and will die out at the end of their growing season. I do plant clover in my garden and let it grow. I dont practice notill and have found that once the clover is turned under, (as a green manure) and with a good mulching, it isnt that big of a garden problem. Even the annual clovers will make seed and re-establish.

ICT Bill
12-18-2008, 11:24 PM
Peas and beans work well around tomatoes and you get the added benifit of additional food. We had 7' tall silver queen corn this year with pole beans growing up it, no fertilizer, except compost.

You need to read Charles Mann's book 1491, most of the sea captains wrote that is how the corn was grown when they first came here

Kiril
12-18-2008, 11:30 PM
....................... Poop

Smallaxe
12-19-2008, 08:14 AM
...Is clover really that invasive? The heat of the summer really seems to knock it back here...Just thinking out loud...

Never thought about clover being affect by summer heat in GA. Up here we are just off and running with certain plants as soon as the ground thaws. Interesting! :)

ICT Bill
12-19-2008, 11:30 AM
....................... Poop

double POOP

treegal1
12-19-2008, 11:09 PM
double POOP

OK first the clover should be able to give a protein of about 24% or 12% - 8% N. the poop will give about 2.5-3 max..... depending on the poop. feel free to correct me on this..........so triple

next and second, the only reason the the native peoples helped the new comers in the " new world" was that they where tired and POed about having to deal with the dead corps that these educated non-savage explorers kept dumping in the woods, to stink up the area and draw in scavengers. and planting peas?? they had to do everything for them even teach them how to wipe there butt's.

Smallaxe
12-20-2008, 06:24 AM
OK first the clover should be able to give a protein of about 24% or 12% - 8% N. the poop will give about 2.5-3 max..... depending on the poop. feel free to correct me on this..........so triple

next and second, the only reason the the native peoples helped the new comers in the " new world" was that they where tired and POed about having to deal with the dead corps that these educated non-savage explorers kept dumping in the woods, to stink up the area and draw in scavengers. and planting peas?? they had to do everything for them even teach them how to wipe there butt's.

But we knew all about rum. So it was an even trade-off. :)

treegal1
12-20-2008, 06:55 AM
But we knew all about rum. So it was an even trade-off. :)
and to thank us they gave us tobacco........

Smallaxe
12-20-2008, 09:06 AM
and to thank us they gave us tobacco........

That's what it is all about. :) :) Cultures reaching out to one another. Heartwarming.

RigglePLC
12-29-2008, 07:50 PM
Tree and Small,
my heart is warmed. What do you think about adding an annual legume like black medic to your grass seed? Provides nitrogen--yet dies out at frost. Flowers are less noticable, too.

treegal1
12-29-2008, 07:56 PM
maybe for you northern guys but we don't get a frost. its our planting time here............

JDUtah
12-29-2008, 08:16 PM
The variety of black medic we deal with out here (weed) grows so thick it chokes out spots of turf.

treegal1
12-29-2008, 08:22 PM
The variety of black medic we deal with out here (weed) grows so thick it chokes out spots of turf.thats the idea is to kill off the grass and give the soil back something, come on man just get off the grass..............

we have sand, lets do this the no brain way, K check got that, P loads on hand and to spare, N needs some help. so enter in some clover and bam its all good, plus I like walking on clover, its nice and spongy and feels like a rug

JDUtah
12-29-2008, 08:32 PM
thats the idea is to kill off the grass and give the soil back something, come on man just get off the grass..............

He wasn't talking about replacing grass with black medic... That wasn't his idea at all...

Tree and Small,
my heart is warmed. What do you think about adding an annual legume like black medic to your grass seed? Provides nitrogen--yet dies out at frost. Flowers are less noticable, too.

If he did that, with our local pest variety of black medic, he would be killing the turf, not helping it by giving it N.

Smallaxe
12-30-2008, 07:40 AM
Never had any experience with black medic legume. I imagine it would come back every spring from seed if it is as aggressive as jd indicates. My personal lawn is pretty much anything that grows and amounts to pathways and patches amidst the gardens.
I am with tree, in that anything that feels good underfoot and is not dusty is good.

Riggle, does it require mowing and would it grow along a fence line in a maintained pine forest?

treegal1
12-30-2008, 10:40 AM
DUH>>>> I am so dense black medic is what we call yellow clover, yeah thats some bad clover but it will grow any place it can get a seed down.

we have opted for a shade loving winter type of persian clover, come summer or 78 deg weather its toast, but the seeds were cheap and it does cover so nicely. the little that we have had to mow( not really but we wanted to try) and put the clippings in the compost, wow, that gets wood waste hot fast, mmmm N

Smallaxe
12-30-2008, 07:50 PM
Yellow Clover is definately a nasty weed here. It seems to grow as a perennial, and spreads like crazy. No broadleaf killer w/in 20' of shoreline - so it really gets to express itself down there.