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growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-24-2008, 12:44 PM
cont. from the top dressing tread.....


CGM work from the protein fraction in it that has 5 known dipeptides in it that inhibit root growth?

it kills the "weed seedling" by allowing normal shoot development with servery inhibited root growth , this lead to seedling death upon moister stress.

if you do not time app correctly or there is alot of rain, irrigation ,water in the soil (april & may:confused:)and it never dry's out completely to kill the weed seedling you can expect reduced performance from CGM

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-24-2008, 12:53 PM
bill product, he can correct me if im wrong? is a hydrolysated water soluble form of CGM
a water soluble form will wash quickly from the soil,so to use this "type" of CGM you really need to time it correctly, and if you don't get some drying out of the surface once the weed is germinated, i would expect that 93% control is a wet dream

JDUtah
12-24-2008, 01:12 PM
i would expect that 93% control is a wet dream


Personally I believe most claims associated with organic products/practices are just as you stated... but the emotion involved with 'safe' and 'saving the planet' often cloud a persons reasoning abilities...

Does this discredit Bill's product? No more than it could discredit regular CT applications...

I am personally interested in trying a soluble CGM product, and it will prolly be Bills...

NattyLawn
12-24-2008, 01:23 PM
I am personally interested in trying a soluble CGM product, and it will prolly be Bills...

Are there any others on the market?

I like the idea of being able to spray this along edges and curbstrips to get maximum protection. I highly doubt you will get good coverage out of a PG even with 2 passes. Some products you have to drag hose with.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-24-2008, 01:27 PM
there is no build up time for GCM to work better, if there is, its like shooting your self in the foot when it comes to reseeding but again thats not how it works.

with out a doubt the research being done is pretty cool we it comes to organic derived weed controls, soon hopefully there will be a true any weather/situation product
that does not need EXPERT timing/ observation, perfect environmental conditions and does not cost an arm and a leg to apply and gets great results?
regular CGM has 10% N aswell as other good foods for microorganisms,regular form has a more forgiving app window too,notaswater soluble, thats good and bad but given environmental variables it might be best

regular CGM would be best to me given vendor pricing of the two types,, the study/reports i read say you need at lest 500 to 100 grams per meter for best results, 10-20 lbs per 1000sf, also too you can get better results at lower rates if app timing and weather are favorable? plus fertilizing at the same time

maybe TREEGAL, will chim in about use of CGM, i think she said the use is too expensive compared to other approaches?

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-24-2008, 01:34 PM
[QUOTE=JDUtah;2658980 No more than it could discredit regular CT applications...

I am personally interested in trying a soluble CGM product, and it will prolly be Bills...[/QUOTE]


JD, come on dude... discredit real CT? is that what the info you find on the computer tells you?:hammerhead:

40$ per 4000.........:help:



Matt, yes, you can even buy the isolated dipeptides responceable for the weed control

JDUtah
12-24-2008, 01:39 PM
Are there any others on the market?

I like the idea of being able to spray this along edges and curbstrips to get maximum protection. I highly doubt you will get good coverage out of a PG even with 2 passes. Some products you have to drag hose with.

I have not seen any others out there yet. (is yours even being sold yet Bill?) But I bet there are plenty on the way. The studies were done in the early 90's...

http://www.springerlink.com/content/780nv09jw3h51177/

DUSTYCEDAR
12-24-2008, 01:40 PM
WELL time will tell we will all have to try something and go on

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-24-2008, 01:43 PM
before anybody says i said it doesn't work understand this,

for it to work the weed seedling/soil NEEDS TOO DRY OUT to kill the weed.
if that doesn't happen you will not stop the weeds.

NattyLawn
12-24-2008, 01:43 PM
JD, come on dude... discredit real CT? is that what the info you find on the computer tells you?:hammerhead:

40$ per 4000.........:help:



Matt, yes, you can even buy the isolated dipeptides responceable for the weed control

Give me a source for the dipeptides and I'll check it out.

$40 per 4k will be close to the granular app rate. I do use a PG, and my pants do get a little dusty, but I've used much dustier granular products.

DUSTYCEDAR
12-24-2008, 01:45 PM
well its so wet in the spring here i dont know what to do.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-24-2008, 01:49 PM
dusty,

thats my point, i not trying to bash bill, the point is the facts only
and too if you read about the tests/research done it usually is done in a green house setting, so they can control irrigation:dizzy:

DUSTYCEDAR
12-24-2008, 01:51 PM
well info is great and i like the help
as a who lot of stuff that may or may not make my biz grow or fail is the key.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-24-2008, 01:59 PM
info is key! happy holidays you guys!!!

matt,
let me work on that later

ICT Bill
12-24-2008, 04:23 PM
We are currently the only distributor in the US for spring 2009 release with a liquid CGM product.

granular CGM is running around $12 to $14 per 1000 right now, some store fronts are selling a 40 pound bag for over $40, rediculous

The recommended application rate for granular CGM is 20 pounds per 1000

There are a lot (NOFA included) of counties that are regulating how much N can be applied in one application, it is usually 1 pound of N per 1000. at the recommended rate granular CGM you would apply 2 pounds per 1000

JDUtah
12-24-2008, 04:28 PM
JD, come on dude... discredit real CT? is that what the info you find on the computer tells you?:hammerhead:

Both of our positions are opinions... there is no reason to :hammerhead: or attack an individual based on a difference in opinion... I have PM's from you that I question if you really understand what you were "suggesting"... you surely do no live it...

NattyLawn
12-24-2008, 04:33 PM
Both of our positions are opinions... there is no reason to :hammerhead: a difference in opinion...

Well, one has applied CT in real world applications with good results and one has not. What's the opinion?

JDUtah
12-24-2008, 04:40 PM
Well, one has applied CT in real world applications with good results and one has not. What's the opinion?

Do you assume I have not used a "real CT"... I do not have to brew it myself you know... people (Nurseries) do offer professional brews for customers...

Your assumption (and his I presume) is that I have no experience with 'a real CT' but am developing my opinions based purely on published research... is he not doing the same about 'soluble CGM'??????

Again.... living what you preach IS an important thing...

dishboy
12-24-2008, 04:59 PM
I see Bradford Organics has CGM in 40 Lb bags and Producers Co-OP as well as Land O Lakes are retailers. Anybody checked on Pallet prices on this product. Would be interest in a heavy fall application and supplementing with the liquid in spring. I wonder if CGM root pruning effects roots deeper than the top inch of soil, if so the weakening of the turf may create more weeds than the product controls?

ICT Bill
12-24-2008, 06:34 PM
dusty,

thats my point, i not trying to bash bill, the point is the facts only
and too if you read about the tests/research done it usually is done in a green house setting, so they can control irrigation:dizzy:

I don't think you read the documents, these are field trials done in plots typically 10 x 10. They use the soil that happens to be there and the real outdoors. Every plot is treated in a different manner and compared, there is always one plot or more that nothing is done to called a control.

some initial testing is done indoors to prove the hypothesis but then it moves to the real world to see if it holds up. Why test a product that is supposed to be used in outdoor turf, indoors? :dizzy: It doesn't make sense, no self respecting scientist would do it thats for sure

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-24-2008, 06:58 PM
I have PM's from you that I question if you really understand what you were "suggesting"... you surely do no live it...


jd,
i'll try to keep this lite being it's Christmas eve.

first let me say when did i say i only will use organic practices? where did i say i don't use synthetic's when needed on some level?

2. if your commit is geared towards my pm to you about burning bridges
well....i think you misinterpreted my words AGAIN? burning bridges with
people like tree and Tim W compared to JOE SCHMO, again you missed my
point again?

3. im in a biz that you can't AWAYS do or apply what you would like,
economic, performance issue's will dictate what is feasible and what is a pipe dream. you will see for your self once your in the field practicing organic gardening on a commercial level?

let me ask you this about your nursery's CT, do they have a microscope & DO meter? what is the compost they use? food? brew times? at what point in brew time do you receive the tea? after getting it,how long till app? how did you apply? to what? how often? you feed the tea with NPK?:nono:

anybody can brew A compost tea? what most people can't do is brew a effective good tea...:cry:

as far as the CGM or should i say CGH it is my opinion...but if you take the time to research it you will read the same FACTS about it as I posted, the facts where from the Iowa state university web site.

if you feel i did not answer your questions about not living what you preach, or anything else you disagree with from what ive posted
feel free to pm me? there's no hard feelings:)

PS,
i hope Santa is bringing you a microscope and testing meter's?

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-24-2008, 07:15 PM
bill,
i guess you didn't read my post? see the part that says usually? of course some of the tests are out doors.

any good scientist would test/show multiple tests done over years at the same site and different sites/soils/ weather condition's? where's those test results please.

why point that out about the tests site/s that i posted? nothing else i say wrong? what about what i said about
solubility of CGH and the plain as day FACT about the soil needing drying out too kill the weed?????? i bet that will not be on your label?

ps,

MARRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY HOLIDAY'S

JDUtah
12-24-2008, 08:25 PM
as far as the CGM or should i say CGH it is my opinion...but if you take the time to research it you will read the same FACTS about it as I posted, the facts where from the Iowa state university web site.


I posted 15-20 "university" articles that discourage the use of CT's in the synthetic forum... my point is... you are using studies in the name of "facts" here, but you do not allow me to do it on my own? ...double standard.

And as far as burning bridges... are you saying I am some Joe Schmo? Hmmm, let's see you say that when I am your age? Or Bill's and Tim's?? Just because I have different beliefs than you doesn't mean my beliefs are worthless.

But with the same argument that you think you make about me and CT's...
Everyone, do not listen to Deeproots opinion of CGH for he is just a Joe Schmo... no offense... just keeping you to your morals...

But I am done arguing... carry one.

Smallaxe
12-24-2008, 09:32 PM
Now this is what Christmas is all about. :laugh:

Almost like family. :laugh: :laugh:

JDUtah
12-24-2008, 09:54 PM
Now this is what Christmas is all about. :laugh:

Almost like family. :laugh: :laugh:

That made me lol. Sorry Deeproots. Merry Christmas guys!

treegal1
12-24-2008, 09:59 PM
urp, excuse me I am already drunk and getting a kick out of you guys going back and fourth about seed base di peptides, well Ala-Ala, and Gin-Gin to you all and merry X mas to all,,,,,,,,

treegal1
12-24-2008, 10:11 PM
as long as ypou go me started they should have there label removed as they state clearly that its a pre M and its realy a post emergent PGR

Tim Wilson
12-24-2008, 11:03 PM
Personally I believe most claims associated with organic products/practices are just as you stated... but the emotion involved with 'safe' and 'saving the planet' often cloud a persons reasoning abilities...


And here I thought I was being pretty rational and using reason and observations, whan all the time I was just an emotional nut case. All that time and money; wasted!

JD, You probably have not really used nursery compost tea that is sold by the gallon but it is usually crap. I know of several places that just mix up some dirty compost in water.

Tell me, how the hell did we grow our food before chemical fertilizers came along? Why do we have so many food related problems compared to the early 1900s?

BTW you haven't burnt my bridge.

Kiril
12-24-2008, 11:57 PM
I still want some field studies on this new product, especially given variable efficacy depending on proteinase used to derive the hydrolysate and required application rates to gain reasonable results (Liu, 94).

NattyLawn
12-25-2008, 09:43 AM
And here I thought I was being pretty rational and using reason and observations, whan all the time I was just an emotional nut case. All that time and money; wasted!

JD, You probably have not really used nursery compost tea that is sold by the gallon but it is usually crap. I know of several places that just mix up some dirty compost in water.

Tell me, how the hell did we grow our food before chemical fertilizers came along? Why do we have so many food related problems compared to the early 1900s?

BTW you haven't burnt my bridge.

JD mentioned this in another thread. He seems to think we use fear tactics to sell programs to customers. If we didn't get good results, do you think customers would come back? Fear tactics only go so far. I usually have to reel in the RoundUp is evil and all synthetics destroy the planet people.

As far as the tea issue JD, you can show me all the "university" studies you want discouraging tea use, but some of us have gone out and used it with good results. Is it a silver bullet? Hell no. But is it a very useful tool in a program? Hell yes. Even though I'm a Joe Schmo, one of the great parts of my job is I get paid to play. I can try products like the CGH, Green Guardian and AACT and tell you if they work in general and for my program. That's why Erik refers to us as R&D as well as a service division. So to go back to the tea doesn't work according to your university studies, I can say it has worked for me. But, I use high quality compost, a good, inexpensive brewer, and the microscope to tell me that. Not a university study with suspect materials, or suspect tea from my local nursery or my crappy homemade brewer.

Tim, the cheap camera to microscope adaptor came yesterday and it works. I guess one of the differences is the Meiji adaptors would have a lens in the adaptor, while I used an eyepiece/adaptor/camera combo. I had EM looking good on my camera once the camera adjusted given the additional zoom. The only downside is you have to make sure the screws are TIGHT....Almost had the cam hit the floor...

Tim Wilson
12-25-2008, 12:32 PM
Tim, the cheap camera to microscope adaptor came yesterday and it works. I guess one of the differences is the Meiji adaptors would have a lens in the adaptor, while I used an eyepiece/adaptor/camera combo. I had EM looking good on my camera once the camera adjusted given the additional zoom. The only downside is you have to make sure the screws are TIGHT....Almost had the cam hit the floor...

I thought they all had lenses. The kind I was talking about which do not reduce the field of view much I BELIEVE have the 0.5X lens. What software are you using?
I'm lucky to have a remote control zoom. If you upgrade, compare Meiji and Martin.

I've ordered new sample microscopes from China. What a challenging experience it has been with the language barrier. Email after email to learn very simple things. Chinese businessmen really need to learn the correct use of English if they are going to carry on in that language or we need to learn Chinese in preparation for...

To pay for the samples I had to travel to the bank and do a telegraph transfer. The bank said I should not use these because they are often rejected because of minor errors. Sure enough they made an error and now I need to go back to the bank (2 hours) for an amendment. Apparently Chinese companies and banks do not accept bank drafts. Does anyone have experience with this?

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-25-2008, 01:21 PM
That made me lol. Sorry Deeproots. Merry Christmas guys!


HO, HO, HO, MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!

david,
what da heck am i going to do with you?? i never thought as you as a
JOE SCHMO....but if you insist....LOL...jk

if i hurt your feelings with my post to you about you only finding info on the computer....im sorry i didn't mean it that way, i was trying to be sarcastic. the Internet is probably the best research tool anyone can use if you look in the right places for the info, thats the hard part!

REAL CT is not some thing you can put in a jar and sell it, so many variables
to making it right for your purpose or why it didn't "work" or why people get mixed results

most "university study" on CT is very suspect as Nattylawn pointed
out, most reports i have read do not make the tea correctly or apply to a usually synthetically treated area with low OM for a very short test period
and blame the tea or say the tea has little value, or they will still use fungicides and such during the test:confused: if you can point me the way to
a study that is legit and long term or has some REAL merit about no benefit or use for REAL CT im all EARS! i don't think you will find it?

if you look at the REAL people out in the world practicing organic gardening,
most have positive feelings about real ct. i would believe then first before some lame test using brown water on some golf course somewhere, but again
send me, show me a legit test/study.


i know the CGM opinion i have is just an opinion but i'm getting my info from the horses mouth, university of IOWA. do i think CGM &CGH has a place/value? sure but........$$$bad weather:cry:$$$$didn't get 93%:cry:$$$
costumer upset:cry: need to hand pick more or apply post herbicide:cry:$$$
the cost needs to come down, i think you would need many repeated apps to get good control, wow a real organic weed PGR as TREE said! it's cool, but the cost?

answer me this, is what i say not true? about solubility of CGH and the fact that the soil needs to dry out too kill the weed seedling?????

you know too i called bill out only because he puts him self out there with his
OVER THE TOP CLAIMS about his products. just tell it like it is and i would have no problem. for him to say he's coming out with a product in an unrelated thread thats 93% effective at preventing CG and fail's to mention about all the other variables involved for the product to REALLY WORK is what drives me crazy. you are always talking about finding the truth about organic products? but time again you seem to defend him cause i guess you THINK? im picking on him or something? maybe i THINK he is in a way picking on others?:nono:

a salesman's disclosure of all untrue & TRUE facts about his/her products claims from the start earns my respect, but some salesmen could care less i guess?
i guess too all people aren't like me in the sense that they REALLY research or UNDERSTAND what there buying/using? so certain units get sold?

if your product has limitations fine, all things do, but to pretend or fail to mention that your product can't do all these things or that it has limitations... well..:cry:

Kiril
12-25-2008, 01:34 PM
most "university study" on CT is very suspect as Nattylawn pointed out, most reports i have read do not make the tea correctly or apply to a usually synthetically treated area with low OM for a very short test period
and blame the tea or say the tea has little value, or they will still use fungicides and such during the test:confused: if you can point me the way to
a study that is legit and long term or has some REAL merit about no benefit or use for REAL CT im all EARS! i don't think you will find it?

I'm not sure I agree with suspect university studies. Most of the research out there with respect to CT is for foliar disease control, not for use as a soil drench. With respect to this research, the results ARE quite variable.

I put this list together last year, so some of the links may not be valid anymore. This is not intended to be an exhaustive review of available literature, just what I could find without spending huge amounts of time.

Compost Tea Trials, Projects, Studies


1993/1994 Trial of several control methods (including compost tea) for apple scab.

North Coast Apple Scab Trials 1993/1994 Organic And Conventional Materials Comparison (http://www.uckac.edu/ppq/PDF/95apr.pdf)

2000/2001 Trial on turf.

The Effects of Compost Tea on Golf Course Greens Turf and Soil: Presidio Golf Course, San Francisco CA (http://www.presidio.gov/NR/rdonlyres/4E22E42D-F215-4648-80E9-191526FA4323/0/CompostTurfTrial.pdf%20)

2004 Project report on cucurbits.

Research Project Report for the Ohio Vegetable and Small Fruit Research and Development Program (http://vegnet.osu.edu/library/res04/orgsqa.pdf)

2006 Trial report on roses.

OSU/Lane County Extension Service Compost Specialist Tea Trial (http://extension.oregonstate.edu/lane/horticulture/documents/teatrial.pdf)

2004 Published study on greenhouse production of cucumbers.

Compost Tea as a Container Medium Drench for Suppressing Seedling Damping-Off Caused by Pythium ultimum (http://apsjournals.apsnet.org/doi/pdf/10.1094/PHYTO.2004.94.11.1156)

2006 Published study on geraniums.

Variability Associated with Suppression of Gray Mold (Botrytis cinerea) on Geranium by Foliar Applications of Nonaerated and Aerated Compost Teas (http://apsjournals.apsnet.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1094/PD-90-1201)

2004 Project on pumpkins.

Aerated compost tea and other alternative treatments for disease control in pumpkins (http://ofrf.org/funded/reports/kelley_03f18.pdf)[/QUOTE]

2003 Research report on grapes in greenhouse/lab.

Suppression of grapevine diseases with compost tea in the greenhouse (http://fpath.cas.psu.edu/GREENHOUSE/GHreport1.pdf)

1999 Report on various fresh market vegetables.

Effectiveness of Compost Extracts as Disease Suppressants in Fresh Market Crops In BC. (http://ofrf.org/funded/reports/welke_99-31.pdf)

2006 A rather large study contaning multiple objectives. Source (http://orgprints.org/6694/)

Effects of composting manures and other organic wastes on soil processes and pest and disease interactions (http://orgprints.org/6694/01/Final_Report.pdf)

Effects of composting manures and other organic wastes on soil processes and pest and disease interactions (http://orgprints.org/6694/02/Annex_Effects_on_soils_and_crops.pdf)

A review of the effects of uncomposted materials, composts, manures and compost extracts on beneficial microorganisms, pest and disease incidence and severity in agricultural and horticultural crops (http://orgprints.org/6694/03/Annex_Effects_on_microorganisms.pdf)

A review of the effects of different composting processes on chemical and
biological parameters in the finished compost or compost extract (http://orgprints.org/6694/07/Annex_Effects_of_different_composting_processes.pdf)

Documentation of the standards, regulations and legislation relevant to recycling, compost and manure preparation and application and a review of common UK practices relating to the preparation and application of uncomposted materials, manures, composts and compost extracts (http://orgprints.org/6694/05/Annex_Documentation_of_Standards.pdf)

Glossary (http://orgprints.org/6694/06/Appendix_1_Glossary.pdf)

2006 Published study on inhibition of apple scab and downy mildew.

Inhibition of the apple scab pathogen Venturia inaequalis and the grapewine downy mildew pathogen Plasmopara viticola by extracts of green waste compost (http://orgprints.org/10317/01/larbi-etal-2006-orbit_conference.pdf)

2007 Published study on Telfairia occidentalis (fluted pumpkin).

The Use of Compost Extract as Foliar Spray Nutrient Source and Botanical Insecticide in Telfairia occidentalis (http://www.idosi.org/wjas/wjas3(5)/14.pdf)

National Organic Standards Board:

Compost Tea Task Force - Final Report (http://www.ams.usda.gov/nosb/meetings/CompostTeaTaskForceFinalReport.pdf)

U.S. Composting Council:

Landscape Architect Specifications for Compost Utilization (http://www.compostingcouncil.org/pdf/LASpecs_MOEA211.pdf)


Other Related Studies


Overall study of compost water extract application through fertigation system in organic farming (http://orgprints.org/6661/01/JovanNikolic03.pdf)

Changes to soil quality indicators following conversion to organic vegetable production (http://orgprints.org/8180/01/OF0401_2178_FRP.pdf)

Biological control of common bunt (Tilletia tritici) in organic farming (http://orgprints.org/1122/02/biocontrol.htm)

Soil microbial community structure and organic matter transformation processes in organic and integrated farming systems (http://orgprints.org/4342/04/Fliessbach_etal_4p_revised-ed.doc)

Soil biodiversity - a sensible soil indicator? considerations on its role and function in soil ecosystems (http://webdomino1.oecd.org/comnet/agr/soil_ero_bio.nsf/viewHtml/index/$FILE/AndersonErosion17Sep.PDF)

The following contains the above study in addition to several others.

Parallel group 2: Soil Biodiversity (http://webdomino1.oecd.org/comnet/agr/soil_ero_bio.nsf/viewHtml/index/$FILE/3_soil_biodiversity.pdf)

Kiril
12-25-2008, 01:39 PM
Another list for CGM, also put together last year, so links once again may not work.

Studies/Articles On Corn Gluten As A Pre-emergent


PATENT: Updated patent (http://www.hort.iastate.edu/gluten/pdf/290757.pdf)

ISU: Greenhouse Screening of Corn Gluten Meal as a Natural Control Product for Broadleaf and Grass Weeds (http://www.hort.iastate.edu/gluten/pdf/grnhsechr.pdf)

ISU: Isolation and Identification of Root-Inhibiting Compounds from Corn. Gluten Hydrolysate (http://www.hort.iastate.edu/gluten/pdf/isolation.pdf)

ISU: Making its way to the marketplace: A natural product for the control of annual weeds (http://www.hort.iastate.edu/gluten/pdf/cornglut2.pdf)

ISU: Bioactivity of a Pentapeptide Isolated from Corn Gluten Hydrolysate on Lolium perenne L. (http://www.hort.iastate.edu/gluten/pdf/bioactiv.pdf)

ISU: Herbicidal Activity of Hydrolyzed Corn Gluten Meal on Three Grass Species under Controlled Environments (http://www.hort.iastate.edu/gluten/pdf/herbicidal.pdf)

ISU: The Use Of A Natural Product For The Control Of Annual Weeds In Turf (http://www.hort.iastate.edu/gluten/pdf/cornglut.pdf)

ISU: A natural product for the control of annual weeds (http://www.hort.iastate.edu/gluten/pdf/cornglut2.pdf) (Note: more or less same as previous link)

ISU: The Use of Corn Gluten Meal As A Natural Preemergence Weed Control in Turf (http://www.hort.iastate.edu/gluten/pdf/cornglut3.pdf)

ISU: How To Use Corn Gluten Meal (http://www.hort.iastate.edu/gluten/pdf/how-to-use-corn-gluten-meal.pdf)

ISU: Cellular effects in perennial ryegrass (Lolium perenne L.) associated. with the root inhibiting compound alaninyl-alanine (http://www.hort.iastate.edu/gluten/pdf/Unruh_thesis.pdf)

UCD: Evaluation and Demonstration of Corn Gluten Meal as an Organic Herbicide (http://ucce.ucdavis.edu/freeform/slosson/documents/1999-20002063.pdf)

UWEX: Corn Gluten Meal: A Natural Pre-Emergence Herbicide (http://www.extension.umn.edu/yardandgarden/ygbriefs/h531cornglutenmeal.html)


Studies/Articles On Natural Products & Methods For Weed Control


UWEX: Corn Gluten Meal and Other Natural Products for Weed Control in Turfgrass (http://www.soils.wisc.edu/extension/FAPM/proceedings/4C.stier.pdf)

UFL: Preliminary Evaluation Of Nonsynthetic Herbicides For Weed Management In Organic Orange Production (http://www.hos.ufl.edu/cachweb/FSHS_2004.pdf)

JA-CSSPA: Weed Suppression by Deleterious Rhizobacteria is Affected by Formulation and Soil Properties (http://www.ars.usda.gov/sp2UserFiles/Place/36221500/cswq-0214-147110.pdf)

JA-CS: Cultural Management of Weeds in Turfgrass: A Review (http://crop.scijournals.org/cgi/reprint/43/6/1899.pdf)

PATENT: Xanthomonas campestris isolates and methods of use (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5271932.html)

Kiril
12-25-2008, 01:46 PM
i think you would need many repeated apps to get good control, wow a real organic weed PGR as TREE said! it's cool, but the cost? answer me this, is what i say not true? about solubility of CGH and the fact that the soil needs to dry out too kill the weed seedling?????

PGR and PREM. You and TG need to read this study more closely.

http://www.hort.iastate.edu/gluten/pdf/herbicidal.pdf

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-25-2008, 01:55 PM
kiril,
i'll have some reading later tonight....lol

i think you will always get mixed results when testing tea's, so many variables and limitations
making it and using it for a specific purposes,

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-25-2008, 02:00 PM
kiril,
i skimmed through it
throw me a bone? what am i missing?

Kiril
12-25-2008, 03:19 PM
kiril,
i skimmed through it
throw me a bone? what am i missing?

http://www.hort.iastate.edu/gluten/pdf/herbicidal.pdf

In the Petri dish bioassay, the corn gluten hydrolysate prevented
germination of creeping bentgrass at application levels above 0.118 g/dm2
and prevented germination of crabgrass at application levels above 0.236
g/dm2, as seen in study 1 (sample 3). The same material was tested o n
perennial ryegrass in study 2 (sample 10), and it completely inhibited root
emergence of perennial ryegrass seed at 0.056 g/dm2.

treegal1
12-25-2008, 07:51 PM
""The definition of germination in the Petri dish study
included any seed with a protruding radicle or shoot. This
may have been misleading because many of the seeds
counted as germinated seed had greatly reduced root
growth. Therefore, in the later studies, germination was redefined to include any radicle measuring 0.5 cm or longer.""

I plan on fully re reading some of the info you gave and some that I had before ..... but sum it up for me, true PreM or PGR??? or is it not in those to categories at all???

I was under the firm beliefs that it was a root growth inhibitor, was I wrong again???

DUSTYCEDAR
12-26-2008, 09:13 AM
tim would travlers checks work?
seem to work everywhere.

Kiril
12-26-2008, 09:25 AM
I plan on fully re reading some of the info you gave and some that I had before ..... but sum it up for me, true PreM or PGR??? or is it not in those to categories at all???

Based on the standard way of classifying herbicides (i.e. mode of action), it is a pre-emergent (root inhibitor or root & shoot inhibitor), not a growth regulator. I suppose you could argue that anything that affects growth is a PGR, but in trade and scientific circles this would not be considered accurate or acceptable given they all affect growth in one way or another.

Here is some review of the topic.

http://www.cof.orst.edu/cof/fs/kpuettmann/FS%20533/Vegetation%20Management/Herbicide%20Mode%20of%20Action%20and%20Injury%20Symptoms.htm

http://128.104.239.6/uw_weeds/extension/articles/herbmoa.htm

http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/WS/WS-23-W.html

Smallaxe
12-26-2008, 10:00 AM
JD mentioned this in another thread. He seems to think we use fear tactics to sell programs to customers. If we didn't get good results, do you think customers would come back? Fear tactics only go so far. I usually have to reel in the RoundUp is evil and all synthetics destroy the planet people.

As far as the tea issue JD, you can show me all the "university" studies you want discouraging tea use, but some of us have gone out and used it with good results. Is it a silver bullet? Hell no. But is it a very useful tool in a program? Hell yes. Even though I'm a Joe Schmo, one of the great parts of my job is I get paid to play. I can try products like the CGH, Green Guardian and AACT and tell you if they work in general and for my program. That's why Erik refers to us as R&D as well as a service division. So to go back to the tea doesn't work according to your university studies, I can say it has worked for me. But, I use high quality compost, a good, inexpensive brewer, and the microscope to tell me that. Not a university study with suspect materials, or suspect tea from my local nursery or my crappy homemade brewer. ...
...

You mean to say that you know more than the professors at the university? Are you hinting that experience in the field trumps clinical studies?!?

Good. :)

Smallaxe
12-26-2008, 10:09 AM
Based on the standard way of classifying herbicides (i.e. mode of action), it is a pre-emergent (root inhibitor or root & shoot inhibitor), not a growth regulator. I suppose you could argue that anything that affects growth is a PGR, but in trade and scientific circles this would not be considered accurate or acceptable given they all affect growth in one way or another. ...


Well the organic pre-m does exactly the same thing that the synthetic pre-m doesn't it? Nothing prevents germination that I am aware of.

Kiril
12-26-2008, 10:20 AM
Well the organic pre-m does exactly the same thing that the synthetic pre-m doesn't it? Nothing prevents germination that I am aware of.

I believe that is a correct assumption.

NattyLawn
12-26-2008, 10:52 AM
You mean to say that you know more than the professors at the university? Are you hinting that experience in the field trumps clinical studies?!?

Good. :)

Was that sarcasm I detect?

Tim Wilson
12-26-2008, 11:16 AM
tim would travlers checks work?
seem to work everywhere.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll ask.

NattyLawn
12-26-2008, 11:34 AM
I thought they all had lenses. The kind I was talking about which do not reduce the field of view much I BELIEVE have the 0.5X lens. What software are you using?
I'm lucky to have a remote control zoom. If you upgrade, compare Meiji and Martin.

I've ordered new sample microscopes from China. What a challenging experience it has been with the language barrier. Email after email to learn very simple things. Chinese businessmen really need to learn the correct use of English if they are going to carry on in that language or we need to learn Chinese in preparation for...

To pay for the samples I had to travel to the bank and do a telegraph transfer. The bank said I should not use these because they are often rejected because of minor errors. Sure enough they made an error and now I need to go back to the bank (2 hours) for an amendment. Apparently Chinese companies and banks do not accept bank drafts. Does anyone have experience with this?

Tim,

No lens. This is the one I bought....Probably not the one you recommended.
http://cgi.ebay.com/F-ADAPTER-for-Camera-Camcorder-to-Telescope-Microscope_W0QQitemZ320326573984QQcmdZViewItemQQptZEye_Pieces_Accessories?hash=item320326573984&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50


In my area there are a lot of adopted Chinese girls, so many that some high schools offer it as a language in school. They also do a quick night class. I seriously thought of taking it last fall. Sorry I can't help in dealing with them.

treegal1
12-26-2008, 11:51 AM
the Agricultural Bank of China (ABC), that may be the best way????

tadhussey
12-26-2008, 03:21 PM
Sell your house and take a vacation to China!

Tim Wilson
12-26-2008, 03:43 PM
No lens. This is the one I bought....Probably not the one you recommended.
http://cgi.ebay.com/F-ADAPTER-for-Ca...3%3A1|294%3A50



Check out this one

http://cgi.ebay.ca/C-MOUNT-LENS-ADAPTER-FOR-VIDEO-CAMERA-MICROSCOPES_W0QQitemZ350131905352QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item350131905352&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1215%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318


Sell your house and take a vacation to China!

Funny boy.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-26-2008, 10:05 PM
kiril,
these dipeptide compounds are pretty amazing, i wonder how many other plants produce these's compounds? and what other plant derived compounds are known or are yet to be discovered for this the purpose of natural weed control, pre & post?
i would agree CGH (made from bacterial enzymes at final processes) can have both effects at different concentrations?
i would like to know the extra cost to hydrolyze the CGM? and what the cost are to isolate the dipeptides?

it seems different companies hold patent's for these different dipeptids isolates.
and i would like to know how much has to be applied per thou to act as a PRE-m?how little to have any effect at all? as a pre and as a pgr

and how long the soil residual is depending on how much moisture the soil
receives?


I'm not sure I agree with suspect university studies. Most of the research out there with respect to CT is for foliar disease control, not for use as a soil drench. With respect to this research, the results ARE quite variable.

my choice of words regarding the word "suspect" might not have been the best choice? i was merely stating to JD that there are a lot of reports/studies
that are flawed from the start. not all, some, so for him to draw a conclusion or post FACTUAL data about CT or what i consider when hearing or using the word CT...."AACT" i do use non aerated tea "NCT" more of an fast extract, but when he post papers on the chem side i think he's not taking in consideration the whole picture? that some of these reports are flawed? or there's a few ways to interpret results, CT/AACT can do so many things, it's truly an amazing tool! even in these reports you posted there are certain "things" flaws that would have given better results to disease suppression, but the FACT is
even with "flawed brewers,compost/food inputs,ete"
most data showed some disease suppression on some level from adding
biology and it's metabolites from compost, whether it's AACT or NCT

kiril i know you didn't take much time posting these.
but in some of these reports there are flaws?IMO anyway


1993/1994 Trial of several control methods (including compost tea) for apple scab.

North Coast Apple Scab Trials 1993/1994 Organic And Conventional Materials Comparison (http://www.uckac.edu/ppq/PDF/95apr.pdf)

ct made by bubbling air for 21 days through a mixture of water and finished dairy manure..... result, more disease............suspect report IMO:)

2000/2001 Trial on turf.

The Effects of Compost Tea on Golf Course Greens Turf and Soil: Presidio Golf Course, San Francisco CA (http://www.presidio.gov/NR/rdonlyres/4E22E42D-F215-4648-80E9-191526FA4323/0/CompostTurfTrial.pdf%20)

good report,read this one before, recommend anyone lurking read this one,
showed a well made tea could help suppress some disease,better root and shoot growth/color, IMO helped retain available NPK in bio mass, i wonder if they are getting better at making/applying AACT? and start applying to the whole property what the long term results would be for a gulf course? anybody know if they still use AACT and if there are any more studies from them?

2004 Project report on cucurbits.

Research Project Report for the Ohio Vegetable and Small Fruit Research and Development Program (http://vegnet.osu.edu/library/res04/orgsqa.pdf)
they use the soil soup machine:cry: need i say more?......suspect reportIMO:)

2006 Trial report on roses.

OSU/Lane County Extension Service Compost Specialist Tea Trial (http://extension.oregonstate.edu/lane/horticulture/documents/teatrial.pdf)

small report,demonstration trail only, no declor water:nono:,short brew time,72f,too much molasses"IMO" 2cups to 45 g,+1 1/2 cup liquid kelp,how active was the tea? DO levels through brewing?too much food in brew not concumed?conclusion, roses seemed to get more black spot from
the CT suspect-IMO:)

2004 Published study on greenhouse production of cucumbers.

Compost Tea as a Container Medium Drench for Suppressing Seedling Damping-Off Caused by Pythium ultimum (http://apsjournals.apsnet.org/doi/pdf/10.1094/PHYTO.2004.94.11.1156)

another soil soup machine used:cry:, did how ever suppress some seedling
damping off suspect IMO:)

2006 Published study on geraniums.

Variability Associated with Suppression of Gray Mold (Botrytis cinerea) on Geranium by Foliar Applications of Non aerated and Aerated Compost Teas (http://apsjournals.apsnet.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1094/PD-90-1201)

soil soup :cry:, growing solutions brewer and non aerated CT
seemed to only concentrate on bacterial numbers in different CT's for fighting
gray mold:confused: they did commit that the tea's made with fungal foods
did seem to work best though? gee why would trying to increase beneficial fungi help fight a fungal disease:dizzy: suspect IMO:)



2004 Project on pumpkins.

Aerated compost tea and other alternative treatments for disease control in pumpkins (http://ofrf.org/funded/reports/kelley_03f18.pdf)

applications of tea and compost applied to whole site prier to tests, seems they where making good tea but it was a short/small test, more of an on farm observation test using different foliar applied materials for disease control,
i would like too see a more scientific comparison, :rolleyes:

2003 Research report on grapes in greenhouse/lab.

Suppression of grapevine diseases with compost tea in the greenhouse (http://fpath.cas.psu.edu/GREENHOUSE/GHreport1.pdf)

quot from"discussion" fugal biomass and activity were generally low in
these tea's and the compost sources may have LACKED the specific organisms
needed to control these pathogens.....end quot suspect IMO:)

1999 Report on various fresh market vegetables.

Effectiveness of Compost Extracts as Disease Suppressants in Fresh Market Crops In BC. (http://ofrf.org/funded/reports/welke_99-31.pdf)

"NCT"..cattle and chicken manure compost, one week brewed water extract,
stirred 10 min a day for the week, showed that chicken compost"NCT" can have negative affect on growth for some plants at one week brew time

what i did find interesting differences between NCT and AACT is how some of these longer non aerated brews do have more specific "properties" microorganisms metabolites then AACT does or can produce? for disease/insect suppression but there's the danger for toxins to the plant and as well as the likely hood of more human pathogen if present. more work needs to been done in both area's, especially for AACT!

like i said before so many variables to TEA making and it's intended use
that results will always be variable? on the surface to say there's NO benefit
for disease,plant growth,soil improvement by adding a CT like AACT IMO is foolish and leaves you with one less tool for you in your tool box,
and I think it is one of the most versatile tools in there,:weightlifter:
and discrediting it to no value or even under valuing it shows lack
of understanding. JMO

Kiril
12-26-2008, 10:37 PM
With respect to the CT links, they are what they are. I simply looked around for available literature and put together the link list without bias. I also did not filter the results based on the "validity" of the study, else most of the links would be gone due to lack of peer review.

One thing the links do show is the progression of the science and understanding of CT.

I don't know what you expect out of research, but your opinion of most of these studies, even the published ones, is "suspect", and some getting this distinction based only on the type of brewer used. :nono: This leaves me wondering if you have a good grasp on the scientific method?

ICT Bill
12-26-2008, 10:43 PM
these dipeptide compounds are pretty amazing, i wonder how many other plants produce these's compounds? and what other plant derived compounds are known or are yet to be discovered for this the purpose of natural weed control, pre & post?

Growing,
It is good to see that the light is starting to go on, questions are much better than none

Keep 'em coming
What is interesting, is that many microbes produce the same enzymes and metabolites that the plant do, I just read one study today that a microbe, in the rhizospere, reduces the amount of a certain of a certain enzyme produced by the plant in conjunction with the entry of a certain pathogen. the bottom line on the study was, the plant produced a lure for a certain microbe as it sensed a pathogen in its area

They have been doing this for at least 400,000,000 maybe 450,000,000 years, we are just catching up. hey what's 50,000,000 years? just a blip

HEY KIRIL, your input is awesome, thanks alot. I am not sure how you do it. THANKS, you catch a lot of flack ( well because you give it out) but you back it up

:clapping::clapping::clapping:

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-26-2008, 11:16 PM
kiril,

i realize i'm being skeptical and general sounding about it,
it's just in response to jd's idea that studies that show little benefit or harm
from ct are some times jaded a bit. and perhaps he should keep researching it
till he can make a better decision about it's value. but thats JMO

the tag "suspect" i used just means that, i'd be suspect too draw a conclusion
with said results

i appreciate ALL the work being done out there on any given level, it's all helps US see the bigger picture. helps the next guy and so on.....
what works and what doesn't

thanks for your understanding:)

Kiril
12-26-2008, 11:27 PM
the tag "suspect" i used just means that, i'd be suspect too draw a conclusion with said results

I think inconclusive results would be a better way of summing up just about all of those studies. :)

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-26-2008, 11:34 PM
kiril,

the soil soup machine has since been disfavored as a good tea brewer,
it has been found to not product good fungal #'s

i don't know many people today that would use or buy one?
alot of these brewers where used in a lot of other tests i have read.
that would make sense since it was one of the first commercial brewers out and there was only maybe a few companies making brewers, the technology/ our understanding has gotten better,
thanks to them and the people out there testing and moving this practice forward:clapping:

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-26-2008, 11:35 PM
I think inconclusive results would be a better way of summing up just about all of those studies. :)

i do the best i can with what god gave me:rolleyes:

Kiril
12-26-2008, 11:42 PM
kiril,

the soil soup machine has since been disfavored as a good tea brewer,
it has been found to not product good fungal #'s

True or not, it does not invalidate the studies, nor does brewing methods, types and quantities of ingredients, etc... which is why I made the point of mentioning it.

thanks to them and the people out there testing and moving this practice forward:clapping:

Ditto :clapping:

Kiril
12-26-2008, 11:46 PM
i do the best i can with what god gave me:rolleyes:

Not trying to bust your balls ;) , just the word "suspect" infers deception which I feel is unfair given your reasons.

Now if you want to call a study funded and published by the USGA as "suspect", I would be more inclined to agree. :laugh:

Tim Wilson
12-27-2008, 02:14 PM
I do not profess to have read all these studies and reports but I have read 3 peer reviewed (at least one is peer reviewed and the other two claim to be but I never received promised confirmation from the author) which are the leading basis of the USDA (Compost Tea Task Force) organic certification of Compost Tea (to my knowledge thus far; please correct me if needed). These studies state that they 'are' studying specific attributes/problems/microbes of Aerated Compost Tea (ACT).

The downfalls I have noted in these studies are;

1/ a general lack of evaluation of a broad spectrum of the microbial population through direct observation (and molecular, DNA) methods. This applies to both the compost material utilized and the resultant ACT. The one exception in one study included a fungi quantification of the compost but not the ACT.

2/ the dissolved oxygen measurement results are not given at specific intervals throughout, with the exception of the reviewed study (to my recollection).

3/ in cases where they wished to show that e-coli could survive and thrive in ACT, the ACT was inoculated with e-coli (Duh!) 'ain't got no goldfish in this bowl! well put some in!'

4/ in no case was it taken into consideration that if the ACT were brewed longer that protozoa would divide and multiply and perhaps control the bacteria (e-coli).

5/ there was not even a protozoa nor fungi quantification of the ACT

6/ as I recall all quantification was by cultured petri dish which does not show the actual active microbial population.


One can say that scientific method was applied to these studies, especially the reviewed one (from Canada) and therefore the results are valid. One can also state that it does not matter what form or type of ACT manufacture or brewing is employed within the bounds of the projected goal or objective of the study.

HOWEVER, because a full evaluation of the necessary microbes for a nutrient loop to occur was not done, the methods of ACT manufacture is invalidated. One could state that the scientists were following methods suitable to what they were evaluating but one cannot apply those methods nor subsequent conclusions/discussions to compost tea and especially ACT.

Because the main theory and action behind the use of compost tea and ACT is to grow the realm of microbes to support or initiate the microbial nutrient cycle, being at the least protozoa with bacteria/archaea one can definitively state that these studies are completely invalid to this end.

The studies (at least the Canadian one) has great value and is a good learning tool but because the stated objective included the term aerated compost tea the study is entirely skewed in this respect. It is akin to me carrying out a study to show the effects of rice in the diet of dogs by feeding rice to cows.

Please be sure I'm not saying all studies of CT need to include a full spectrum of nutrient cycling microorganisms. Some tests include limiting or growing specific (usually bacterial or fungal) microbes for specific purpose (e.g. foliar/soil disease control or soil microbial ratio alteration).

Because in many instances we do not know the motivation, nor funding source of the scientists involved in the studies we can hypothesize that some of these studies are indeed 'suspect' or 'inconclusive with prejudice'.

Salutations,
Tim

JDUtah
12-27-2008, 07:03 PM
Please be sure I'm not saying all studies of CT need to include a full spectrum of nutrient cycling microorganisms. Some tests include limiting or growing specific (usually bacterial or fungal) microbes for specific purpose (e.g. foliar/soil disease control or soil microbial ratio alteration).


Tim,
Have there been any studies that show a fungi/bacteria dominated tea can significantly alter microbe ratio's?
Ps, I am glad the bridge is not burned. Our PM'ing after any disagreements always proves to restore and increase understanding. I appreciate you and your input. :)

these dipeptide compounds are pretty amazing, i wonder how many other plants produce these's compounds? and what other plant derived compounds are known or are yet to be discovered for this the purpose of natural weed control, pre & post?
i would agree CGH (made from bacterial enzymes at final processes) can have both effects at different concentrations?
i would like to know the extra cost to hydrolyze the CGM? and what the cost are to isolate the dipeptides?

Question to all,
I agree and appreciate that it is an amazing world where living organisms can create their own "natural" pesticides. The question is...

Where do you believe the line is drawn to determine if a product can be classified as "synthetic" or "organic"? What benefits come from the "organic" products?

For a material to effectively kill weeds/insects/disease it needs to have a specific concentration...

Is the effective concentration harmful to humans? Pets? Other plants? Soil microbes? Only testing and time will show.

Surely whether it is derived from synthetic or natural processes its toxicity and effective concentration remains the same...

So what benefit does an "organic" or "natural" pest control product have over a synthetic product? (other than a marketing niche?)

Deeproots,
I will hold my opinion of CT's... if you have to apply a CT every month or two to increase/sustain 'appropriate' soil microbe populations I believe there is something wrong with your soil... fix that first... then inoculate the soil with the microbes. (I do not think my opinion of CT is keeping a tool out of my toolbox. To the contrary actually.)

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-28-2008, 08:09 AM
[

Deeproots,
I will hold my opinion of CT's... if you have to apply a CT every month or two to increase/sustain 'appropriate' soil microbe populations I believe there is something wrong with your soil... fix that first... then inoculate the soil with the microbes. (I do not think my opinion of CT is keeping a tool out of my toolbox. To the contrary actually.)

i apologize for trying to give you some insight on a subject that often relies on personal experience's to prove actual benefit's, since i've been able to draw some conclusions my self this year in the FIELD, but "i know you able to figure out this all on your own"? sorry again

your entitled to your opinion, and i will respect that for now on.
i guess tim,tree, many others across this world are full of it and wasting their time with this very new result's producing technology?

Happy growing!!!:waving:

treegal1
12-28-2008, 09:05 AM
no no no , the earth she is a flat, whats a wrong ah with you.:hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead:

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-28-2008, 09:26 AM
no no no , the earth she is a flat, whats a wrong ah with you.:hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead:


but i thought....? "O" Dam......back to the drawing board!!!!:p

treegal1
12-28-2008, 11:08 AM
so a few answers about the questions,

yes tea can change the biology of the soil, assuming that the tea is good and not just mud water, however its an up hill battle with #'s that are hard to quantify.
next whats the hang up with all the killings and all, whats wrong with you!!! kill kill kill, that's the sh*t that got me in trouble with Bills NPP and that's why I had to go back to some Buddhist teachings and regain my senses and stop taking the stupid easy way out and stopped doing any killings( by my own hand ). the whole idea is to nurture and give life!!! grow healthy plants and "bugs" not cause a micro ecosystem with specialized organisms.

Where do you believe the line is drawn to determine if a product can be classified as "synthetic" or "organic"? What benefits come from the "organic" products?
Is the effective concentration harmful to humans? Pets? Other plants? Soil microbes? Only testing and time will show.

HOW F___ED UP IS YOU MAN,

most of the stuff I like to use has been around for tens of thousands of years on some level or another, ok so maybe some of it is a newer "IDEA", but fish and salad dressing with a side of wood ash same char a little sh*T and guts lay-ed out with some grain and mulch I don't think will harm any one at the levels or amounts " concentrations" I use them at.

now this is only common sense here, so disclaimer on and all that...........WATER, to little and you will dry up and blow away in the wind, to much and if you can not float and sleep or grow gills you drown. nice drink and a bath every now and then etc etc etc,,, you get the idea.

next a natural system is what we are going for in an unnatural world that starts of damaged by our initial actions, fix it how you can

Tim Wilson
12-28-2008, 11:11 AM
Have there been any studies that show a fungi/bacteria dominated tea can significantly alter microbe ratio's?


Sorry, I don't know. Good proposed study. I've thought of carrying it out often. Buy me a place in South Carolina and I'll do all the studies you wish>smirk.

DUSTYCEDAR
12-28-2008, 11:15 AM
no no no , the earth she is a flat, whats a wrong ah with you.:hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead:

only FL we can sled in pa:)

Tim Wilson
12-28-2008, 11:19 AM
Where do you believe the line is drawn to determine if a product can be classified as "synthetic" or "organic"? What benefits come from the "organic" products?


First of all; Exactly Treegal!

There is a difference between growing organically or 'nature farming' (as it is called by a much larger populace than ours) and growing using 'stuff' which has been labelled organic by an industry or government department set up for this purpose.

So yes there is sometimes a fine line between synthetic and so-called organic.

treegal1
12-28-2008, 11:26 AM
only FL we can sled in pa:)I am on the sky line ridge its tallest is 47 feet, I am in the mountains of Florida. LOLOLOL, maybe i brewed my coffee a little strong:laugh::laugh:

Prolawnservice
12-28-2008, 11:46 AM
Where do you believe the line is drawn to determine if a product can be classified as "synthetic" or "organic"? What benefits come from the "organic" products? Organic products are created in nature, synthetic is man made, artificially produced.

For a material to effectively kill weeds/insects/disease it needs to have a specific concentration... Why do you need to use a specific "material"?

So what benefit does an "organic" or "natural" pest control product have over a synthetic product? (other than a marketing niche?)
Mode of action.
Persistence.

Most organic cides have multiple modes of action, for example tea tree oil has over 200 compounds that may effect different microbiology. Any cide when used inappropriately has negative consequences, however synthetic chemicals are relatively new when it comes to degradation, the biology doesn't know, or is unable to break it down completely in some cases therefore it persists and degrades quality of life for all species on the planet.

http://www.esajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1890/04-1291
http://www.pnas.org/content/99/8/5476.abstract?ijkey=4ff72fab59e7c00f01ce3bd6a4cd400d0a3dcb14&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

Kiril
12-28-2008, 11:47 AM
Where do you believe the line is drawn to determine if a product can be classified as "synthetic" or "organic"?

I think the simplest breakdown would be:

Organic/natural: That which can be found in nature, a naturally occurring substance.

Synthetic: That which cannot be found in nature, has no natural origin.

Kiril
12-28-2008, 11:49 AM
A couple more studies I chased down for CT and compost.

2004 Published study on Seedling Damping-Off.

Compost Tea as a Container Medium Drench for Suppressing Seedling Damping-Off Caused by Pythium ultimum (http://apsjournals.apsnet.org/doi/abs/10.1094/PHYTO.2004.94.11.1156)

2004 Published study on Potato.

Antibiosis Ability of Aerobic Compost Tea against Foliar and Tuber Potato Diseases (http://www.scialert.net/qredirect.php?doi=biotech.2006.69.74&linkid=pdf)

2006 Trial On Different Turf Topdressings.

18 Month Trial at Dundee and Perth Polo Club (http://www.remade.org.uk/files/VariationsintheQualityofSportsTurfPitches%20_2104356652.pdf)

JDUtah
12-28-2008, 12:32 PM
next whats the hang up with all the killings and all, whats wrong with you!!! kill kill kill, that's the sh*t that got me in trouble with Bills NPP and that's why I had to go back to some Buddhist teachings and regain my senses and stop taking the stupid easy way out and stopped doing any killings( by my own hand ). the whole idea is to nurture and give life!!! grow healthy plants and "bugs" not cause a micro ecosystem with specialized organisms.

HOW F___ED UP IS YOU MAN,

most of the stuff I like to use has been around for tens of thousands of years on some level or another, ok so maybe some of it is a newer "IDEA", but fish and salad dressing with a side of wood ash same char a little sh*T and guts lay-ed out with some grain and mulch I don't think will harm any one at the levels or amounts " concentrations" I use them at.

next a natural system is what we are going for in an unnatural world that starts of damaged by our initial actions, fix it how you can

Thank you Tree,
I think you got to the point I was going at. This thread is about an "Organic Pesticide". The fact is, in order for any pesticide to be effective it needs to be at a certain concentration.

Organic or Synthetic, a pesticide is a pesticide and IMO there is really no real benefit of using an organic pesticide other than it is the current trend and a good marketing opportunity.

If organic = natural then CGM or the dipeptides in this discussion (at effective concentrations) could rarely be considered organic.

Kill a plant/seed with a product a man produced? Kill a plant/seed with a product that was produced by man manipulating natural systems so "nature" will produce it? In the end it is not part of the natural system that an organic program is trying to establish/maintain...

I know I am talking about ideals and the real world takes compromise so the question is, if you decide you have to add something to the system that is unnatural (a man-produced pesticide), are you limiting yourself by choosing to only use products that are considered "organic"? Why do you only use these products?

Back to Tree,
IMO targeting the real natural system and working to "stop taking the stupid easy way out and stopped doing any killings( by my own hand )" is an important ideal that will be easily passed over when organic pesticides become more effective and available.

Why are you guys in organics? The answer to that will help you decide what is appropriate for your program and what is not.

JDUtah
12-28-2008, 01:02 PM
To expand ...

Organic products are created in nature, synthetic is man made, artificially produced.

CGM and the Dipeptides are then considered what? We wouldn't have them available if Bill's company didn't produce them = not made in nature.

Why do you need to use a specific "material"?

Ask the people interested in this thread. My answer... it is usually more effective/reliable to use a specific "material" like CGM or Dipeptides, and especially synthetic pesticides.

Mode of action.
Persistence.

Most organic cides have multiple modes of action, for example tea tree oil has over 200 compounds that may effect different microbiology.

Wouldn't it be better to target the specific pathogen instead of wiping out entire populations of both helpful and harmful microbes?

Any cide when used inappropriately has negative consequences, however synthetic chemicals are relatively new when it comes to degradation, the biology doesn't know, or is unable to break it down completely in some cases therefore it persists and degrades quality of life for all species on the planet.


I disagree with a blanket statement like this. Many synthetic pesticides are based on naturally occurring chemicals that breakdown relatively quickly. Pre-emergents being one of them. (Why do you have to water most of them in within 24 hours of the application?)

How long of a soil residual do the 'active ingredients' in CGM have? If that has not ben determined, why do organic products get excluded?

In this case (crabgrass) there is(will be) a much better alternative. Is it synthetic? Yes. Is it more fitting in an "organic" program than CGM? IMO Yes!

The selective herbicide I am talking about is based on a plant produced protein. The protein has been found to break down extremely quickly. 4-9 days for half of the product to be decomposed after application.

What breaks it down? Microbes! So although it is "synthetically produced" IMO it is much more fitting than CGM in an organic program. You can spot spray the crabgrass.

If you use this synthetic pesticide you are not introducing a unnatural product (CGM or Concentrated Dipeptides) to an ENTIRE turf ecosystem. It actually feeds the microbes where you do spray it. It is more effective and reliable than CGM, and it does not last in the soil...

In this cae would looking for the easy, lazy, "organic" pesticide cause you to miss a more fitting product? I believe many people might miss an oppurtunity just because something is labeled organic or synthetic...

Bill,
Your forthcoming product seems to be a step in the right direction (over CGM)... so thank you.

Back to everyone,
Do you know where you draw the line? Are you thinking with the big picture in mind? No need to answer publicly. I just hope you hold to your ideals even if it makes it more work (study) for you.

treegal1
12-28-2008, 01:16 PM
In this case (crabgrass) there is(will be) a much better alternative. Is it synthetic? Yes. Is it more fitting in an "organic" program than CGM? IMO Yes!

oh jah, cmg for crab grass in my area, even bills miracle, ya sure if you spray every month maybe. some things just need to be taken out and then sod in my case needs to be re laid or plugged then the crab grass can be removed or eek, killed. a pre m is ok if its a clean start, maybe, but persistence is what pays, that and tall grass. for instance SAC can kill hedges if it is let to get tall so it blocks out light. same with crab grass, then we get back to watering, keep the top 3/4 inch dry most of the time and it is not a favorable seed bed, and most of all try and keep the egg after the chicken, DON'T LET ONE CRAB GRASS WEED TURN INTO TE MILLION!!!!!! hand pull that bastard now!!!

JDUtah
12-28-2008, 01:16 PM
i apologize for trying to give you some insight on a subject that often relies on personal experience's to prove actual benefit's, since i've been able to draw some conclusions my self this year in the FIELD, but "i know you able to figure out this all on your own"? sorry again

your entitled to your opinion, and i will respect that for now on.
i guess tim,tree, many others across this world are full of it and wasting their time with this very new result's producing technology?

Happy growing!!!:waving:

:)

I am not saying CT is completely irrelevant. I am saying I think there are even more effective products/practices/technologies than CT... Ask yourself if you are selling yourself short by settling with a CT? Please do not answer... we already know it.

Kiril
12-28-2008, 01:18 PM
CGM and the Dipeptides are then considered what? We wouldn't have them available if Bill's company didn't produce them = not made in nature.

I fail to see the point you are trying to make here. Using your reasoning, one could argue compost is not "made in nature" since it is also a processed material. No offense JD, but lately it seems to me many of your arguments are geared towards trying to justify use of synthetics in your own programs. If you want to use them, then do so, you don't need the endorsement of this forum.

I disagree with a blanket statement like this. Many synthetic pesticides are based on naturally occurring chemicals that breakdown relatively quickly. Pre-emergents being one of them. (Why do you have to water most of them in within 24 hours of the application?)

I'll bite ... do you have any specific examples?

JDUtah
12-28-2008, 01:18 PM
oh jah, cmg for crab grass in my area, even bills miracle, ya sure if you spray every month maybe. some things just need to be taken out and then sod in my case needs to be re laid or plugged then the crab grass can be removed or eek, killed. a pre m is ok if its a clean start, maybe, but persistence is what pays, that and tall grass. for instance SAC can kill hedges if it is let to get tall so it blocks out light. same with crab grass, then we get back to watering, keep the top 3/4 inch dry most of the time and it is not a favorable seed bed, and most of all try and keep the egg after the chicken, DON'T LET ONE CRAB GRASS WEED TURN INTO TE MILLION!!!!!! hand pull that bastard now!!!

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

JDUtah
12-28-2008, 01:42 PM
I fail to see the point you are trying to make here. Using your reasoning, one could argue compost is not "made in nature" since it is also a processed material. No offense JD, but lately it seems to me many of your arguments are geared towards trying to justify use of synthetics in your own programs. If you want to use them, then do so, you don't need the endorsement of this forum.

I will use synthetic pesticides when necessary regardless of this forums approval. The reason I spoke up is because I find it important to check the ignorant reader that is using "organic" products just because they think they are safer to humans and the natural system. I believe that in time organic products will be in question just as much as synthetic products. I think it is careless for organics to be exluded from particular regulations.

I agree with what you said about compost... it could be considered man made. At times it is inappropriate to use compost, other times it is appropriate to use different compost, or amounts of compost, for different situations.

I'll bite ... do you have any specific examples?

Well, for starters... the one I was talking about for crabgrass... mesotrione.
They are trying to make it available to our industry this spring.

But back to TreeGals take on things,
Cultural first! Then if I may add, chemical second.

How long of a soil residual does CGM have? Will that affect your annual over-seeding (cultural weed control)?

JDUtah
12-28-2008, 01:52 PM
I think the simplest breakdown would be:

Organic/natural: That which can be found in nature, a naturally occurring substance.

Synthetic: That which cannot be found in nature, has no natural origin.

I do not mean to trap here. But I am curious of your personal opinion...

Would you consider mass produced mesotrione to be organic and appropriate for an organic weed control program?

treegal1
12-28-2008, 02:09 PM
I do not mean to trap here. But I am curious of your personal opinion...

Would you consider mass produced mesotrione to be organic and appropriate for an organic weed control program?
synthetic Leptospermone is the easy way out why not cultivate a plant and use the extract, oh yes that would be work, sorry

Kiril
12-28-2008, 02:19 PM
Would you consider mass produced mesotrione to be organic and appropriate for an organic weed control program?

You tell me ... can I find mesotrione in nature?

http://www.regional.org.au/au/allelopathy/2005/2/7/2636_cornesd.htm

treegal1
12-28-2008, 02:25 PM
um yes some lemon bottle brush for any one?? or other select seeds or plant root extract.maybe some palm seeds??? or a tow truck.......

JDUtah
12-28-2008, 02:26 PM
You tell me ... can I find mesotrione in nature?

http://www.regional.org.au/au/allelopathy/2005/2/7/2636_cornesd.htm

Thanks for linking. I do not have time to read it all yet. I see where you would classify it.

Here is a quote from that article that touches on my skepticism of organic/natural pesticides...

"The source of new lead compounds can be diverse but a field which should provide a rich source of material is that of allelochemicals. These compounds are by definition herbicidally active but may not be useful as commercial products in their natural form. They may be too complex to produce or require high rates that are not economically feasible and many have other properties which are not desirable, such as an unacceptable toxicology profile. The key is to identify relatively simple compounds that can be further optimised using synthetic chemistry to provide commercially attractive products. The development of mesotrione is an example of such a process."

JDUtah
12-28-2008, 02:30 PM
synthetic Leptospermone is the easy way out why not cultivate a plant and use the extract, oh yes that would be work, sorry

Would cultivating a plant and using the extract remove the toxicity and potential harmful effects of Leptospermone? I personally do not believe so.

Prolawnservice
12-28-2008, 02:45 PM
To expand ...



CGM and the Dipeptides are then considered what? We wouldn't have them available if Bill's company didn't produce them = not made in nature.
I believe Bill does not synthesize them, he isolates them, they are naturally derived and therefore organic.


Ask the people interested in this thread. My answer... it is usually more effective/reliable to use a specific "material" like CGM or Dipeptides, and especially synthetic pesticides.
How about not allowing the problem to occur in the first place. Proper cultural practices, healthy diverse soil and the right plant in the right place will beat the pants off any pesticide organic or not.



Wouldn't it be better to target the specific pathogen instead of wiping out entire populations of both helpful and harmful microbes? Yes, that's why I said the misuse of any cide organic or otherwise will have negative consequences, you need to weigh the necessity against the consequence whenever you decide any pesticide may be of warrant in a situation.



I disagree with a blanket statement like this. Many synthetic pesticides are based on naturally occurring chemicals that breakdown relatively quickly. Pre-emergents being one of them. (Why do you have to water most of them in within 24 hours of the application?)
For the most part, you have to water them in because they become unstable and volatilize.

How long of a soil residual do the 'active ingredients' in CGM have?. Very little if any (why wouldn't there be a synthetic derivitive already), the actual corn glutan takes 5 to 6 weeks to completely break down. If that has not ben determined, why do organic products get excluded? Because, if you feed someone too much corn gluten they may get a belly ache, you feed them too much ronstar or pre-m they may die.

In this case (crabgrass) there is(will be) a much better alternative. Is it synthetic? Yes. Is it more fitting in an "organic" program than CGM? IMO Yes! :nono:Nothing synthetic is part of a true organic program.

Tim Wilson
12-28-2008, 03:27 PM
Judging from the following mesotrione sounds like pretty nasty stuff. Not quite toxic to humans, birds, bees and other creatures. No cancer study done. The range of plants affected is not quite known and wind drift is a concern. Will likely affect children negatively before adults. Degrades rapidly maybe but also sticks around for who knows how long. Gee that reminds me of what they say about roundup

Hello Ma'am, I'm just gonna spray this stuff on your lawn to kill those weeds. I'm not sure what it might to to your flowers and vegetable garden and it might shut down the organs of your kids and pets. The birds and bees may or may not be killed but let me assure you it is entirely safe because its been approved by standards of acceptability.



http://www.epa.gov/opprd001/factsheets/mesotrione.pdf

USE PATTERNS AND FORMULATIONS
Mesotrione will be applied pre- and post-emergence through ground or aerial application
equipment. Mesotrione has herbicidal activity against broadleaf weeds. Itís efficacy is the result
of the inhibition of the enzyme 4-hydroxyphenylpyruvate dioxygenase (HPPD) enzyme in target
plants. Following treatment, in sensitive plants carotenoid biosynthesis is disrupted in the
chlorophyll pathway, resulting in a bleaching effect.

2
SCIENCE FINDINGS
SUMMARY
Hazard and risk assessments were conducted in relation to this registration application and
tolerance petition for mesotrione on field corn that suggest that its use, consistent with the
proposed labeling measures, will be protective of the public health and the environment. There
are no other registrations for this chemical. Therefore, aggregate exposures to the general public
are based on food plus water calculations derived from this use.

In estimating risks from this use, the Health Effects Division (HED) in EPA used
conservative Tier 1 exposure assumptions. Tolerance level residues and 100 percent crop treated
exposure assumptions were used in this risk analysis. An acute risk assessment was not
calculated because no suitable endpoint was selected which could be attributable to a single-dose
exposure.

Plasma tyrosine levels were increased in the rat, mouse and dog in the chronic and
reproduction studies in which the levels were measured. The ocular, liver and kidney effects
seen are believed to be mediated by the high tyrosine levels in the blood caused by inhibition of
the enzyme 4-hydroxyphenylpyruvate dioxygenase (HPPD). Even though the rat is the most
sensitive species to this effect compared to the dog and the mouse, EPA concludes that the
mouse is a more appropriate model for assessing human risk than is the rat since the enzyme
activity in the secondary degradation pathway in mice is similar to humans. The chronic dietary
risk assessment was based on a Lowest Observed Adverse Effect Level (LOAEL) of 2.1
mg/kg/day in the mouse reproduction study and a safety factor of 3000. The Food Quality
Protection Act (FQPA) Safety Factor Committee retained the 10x safety factor intended for the
protection of infants and children because there is quantitative evidence of increased
susceptibility demonstrated in the oral prenatal developmental toxicity studies in rats, mice, and
rabbits. Delayed ossification was seen in the fetuses at doses below those at which maternal
toxic effects were noted. Maternal toxic effects in the rat were decreased body weight gain
during treatment and decreased food consumption and in the rabbit, abortions and GI effects.
Thus, the Population Adjusted Dose (PAD) for chronic risk assessment is 0.0007 mg/kg/day.
The chronic dietary risk assessment suggests that the requested uses will utilize 1.8% of the
cPAD for the U.S. population, 4.3% of the cPAD for All Infants (< 1 year old) and 4.2% of the
cPAD for Children 1-6 years old. Surface and ground water estimated environmental
concentrations (EECs) were used to compare against back-calculated drinking water levels of
comparison (DWLOCs) for the aggregate risk assessment. The chronic EECs are less than the
DWLOCs. Thus, HED concluded that chronic aggregate exposures to mesotrione are not likely
to exceed the Agencyís level of concern for any population subgroup. HED did not perform a
quantitative cancer risk assessment because the data suggest that no evidence of carcinogenicity
was noted in the mice or rat studies.
Risks to agricultural workers were also considered. HED determined that short- and
intermediate-term exposures may occur. Since mesotrione may be applied only twice per year,
long-term exposures are not expected from the proposed uses. Since no more than 30 days
exposure are expected for handlers, the worst case occupational risk for mixing/loading liquids
for aerial application is 30 Margin of Exposure (MOE) without gloves. With the addition of
gloves, all MOEs are greater than 300. Since the label required PPE is a single layer of clothing
3
1 Ruetschi, U., et.al., Mutations in the 4-hydroxyphenylpyruvate dioxygenase gene
(HPD) in patients with tyrosinemia type III. Hum. Genet. 106(6): 654-662.
and gloves, the MOEs for all scenarios do not exceed EPAís level of concern.
The Environmental Fate and Effects Division (EFED) in EPA has reviewed this action and
concluded that mesotrione is not persistent but degradates MNBA [4-(methylsulfonyl)-2-
nitrobenzoic acid] and AMBA [2-amino-4-(methylsulfonyl)benzoic acid] may be persistent
under suboxic conditions such as subsoil and groundwater. Estimated environmental
concentrations in water were calculated using EPAís models and factored into the human health
risk assessment. Mesotrione is practically non-toxic to avian species, small mammals, and
aquatic species. It is considered relatively non-toxic to bees. Non-target plants may be at risk
from its use. There are no concerns for mesotrione for terrestrial or aquatic endangered
animals. Syngenta is a member of the Endangered Species and Spray Drift Task Forces and any
measures developed by the Task Forces to mitigate risks to non-target plants will be applied to
mesotrione as well as other registered herbicides.

SCIENTIFIC FINDINGS
EPA reviewed the submitted product chemistry, toxicology, residue chemistry, occupational
exposure, ecological effects and environmental fate data. A summary of these assessments
follows:
Health Effects Divisionís Review- Hazard Identification
Mesotrione has low acute toxicity via the oral, dermal, and inhalation routes. It is a mild eye
irritant, but is not a dermal irritant or a dermal sensitizer. In sub-chronic and chronic oral
studies, ocular lesions, liver and kidney effects, and/or body weight decrements were the major
adverse effects seen in the rat, mouse, and dog. Plasma tyrosine levels were increased in the rat,
mouse and dog in the chronic and reproduction studies in which levels were measured. The
ocular, liver and kidney effects are believed to be mediated by the high tyrosine levels in the
blood caused by inhibition of the enzyme 4-hydroxyphenylpyruvate dioxygenase (HPPD). Even
though the rat is the most sensitive species to this effect compared to the dog and the mouse, the
Mechanism of Toxicity Science Assessment Review Committee (SARC) concluded that the
mouse is a more appropriate model for assessing human risk than is the rat since the enzyme
activity in the secondary degradation pathway in mice is similar to humans. There was no
evidence of carcinogenic potential in either the rat chronic toxicity/carcinogenicity or mouse
carcinogenicity studies and no concern for mutagenicity. No evidence of neurotoxicity or
neuropathology was seen in the acute and subchronic neurotoxicity studies. In the multigeneration
mouse reproduction study, one F1 male and one F1 female had retinal detachment
with marked cataractous changes at the highest dose tested (>1000 mg/kg/day). In the
subchronic toxicity dog study, the high-dose females had decreased absolute and relative brain
weights; however, no microscopic abnormalities were noted in any brain tissue from the highdose
group and the effect was not observed in the chronic toxicity dog study. Therefore, there is
some concern about the effects of elevated plasma tyrosine levels on the developing nervous
system in children due to a
report by Ruetschi et al (2000)1 that some patients with tyrosinemia III (an autosomal recessive
4
disorder in which HPPD is deficient) were presented with mental ******ation or neurological
symptoms. There was evidence of increased susceptibility of rats, mice and rabbits to in utero
and/or post-natal exposure to mesotrione.
No appropriate endpoint was available to quantitate risk to the general U.S. population or to
females 13-50 years old from a single-dose administration of mesotrione. Therefore, there is no
acute reference dose (aRfD) or acute population adjusted dose (aPAD). The short-term
incidental oral endpoint is based upon decreases in body weight gain during treatment and
decreases in food consumption. The short-term dermal and inhalation endpoints are based upon
delays in skeletal ossification and changes in manus/pes (forepaws/hindpaws) ossification
assessments seen in oral developmental studies. The chronic and intermediate-term endpoints
for all routes of exposure are based upon tyrosinemia in adults and pups and ocular discharge in
pups observed in a mouse reproduction study. The chronic RfD is 0.007 mg/kg/day and the
chronic population adjusted dose (cPAD) is 0.0007 mg/kg/day. Mesotrione is classified as "not
likely to be carcinogenic to humans" based upon lack of evidence of carcinogenicity in rats and
mice. Therefore, a cancer risk assessment is not required. Since oral studies were selected for
all durations of dermal and inhalation exposure, a 25% dermal-absorption factor and a 100%
inhalation-absorption factor (relative to oral absorption) were used in the route-to-route
extrapolation.
FQPA Decision
HED recommended that the 10x safety factor to account for enhanced sensitivity of infants
and children be retained for the general U.S. population and all population subgroups and
scenarios. Consequently, the cPAD value is 0.0007 mg/kg/day. This decision was based on
quantitative evidence of increased susceptibility demonstrated in the oral prenatal developmental
toxicity studies in rats, mice, and rabbits and in the multi-generation reproduction study in mice.
Quantitative evidence of increased susceptibility was not demonstrated in the multi-generation
reproduction study in rats since no no-observed-adverse-effect-level (NOAEL) was established
for parental or offspring systemic toxicity. However, there is evidence of a qualitative increase
in susceptibility since the tyrosinemia observed in the young was more severe than that observed
in the adults.
A chronic dietary exposure analysis was conducted using the Dietary Exposure Evaluation
Model (DEEMô, ver 7.72), which utilizes consumption data from the USDA 1989-92
Nationwide Continuing Surveys of Food Intake by Individuals (CSFII). Acute and cancer
dietary exposure analyses were not conducted since no acute doses or endpoints were selected
for the general U.S. population (including infants and children) or the females 13-50 years old
population subgroup and mesotrione was classified as not a carcinogen, respectively. The
following conservative assumptions were made for the chronic dietary analysis: HEDrecommended
tolerance level residues for field corn, DEEMô default processing factors for
field corn commodities, and assuming all field corn is 100% treated with mesotrione. The
chronic dietary food exposure estimates were less than HEDís level of concern (<100% cPAD)
for the general U.S. population and all population subgroups. Specifically, the most highly
exposed population subgroup was "all infants (<1 year old)" at 4.3% of the cPAD.
Drinking Water
5
The registrant has submitted (without request from the Agency) two interim reports on a
prospective groundwater monitoring (PGM) study at a site in Michigan. However, until the
studies are completed and final report submitted to the Agency, these data cannot be used. Since
HED does not have ground or surface water monitoring data to calculate quantitative aggregate
exposure, estimates of mesotrione levels in surface and ground water were made using computer
modeling. The estimated environmental concentrations (EECs) for surface water [from
GENEEC (Generic Environmental Concentration) modeling] are 20 ppb and 4.3 ppb for the
acute and chronic (56-day) scenarios, respectively. The EEC for ground water [from SCIGROW
(Screening Concentration in Ground Water) modeling] is 0.15 ppb to be used for both
acute and chronic scenarios. All the EEC values are less than the lowest drinking water levels of
concern (DWLOC) value of 6.7 ppb (specifically for the "all infants (<1 year old)", and
"children 1-6 years old" sub-populations) determined for the chronic scenario, and therefore do
not exceed HED's level of concern.
Consideration of Risks to Pesticide Applicators and Handlers
The proposed use of the herbicide Callisto Herbicide, a suspension concentrate formulation
containing 40% of the active ingredient (a.i.), mesotrione, is for pre- and postemergence control
of broadleaf weeds in field corn. Mesotrione may be applied either by ground sprayers or by
aerial application up to corn height of 30" tall. A maximum of two applications per season and
0.43 lbs a.i./A/season are proposed. For preemergence application, Callisto Herbicide is
proposed for use at 0.188-0.24 lbs ai/A by groundboom. In a single postemergence application,
0.094 lbs a.i./A should not be exceeded.
Based on the proposed use patterns, short-term dermal and inhalation exposures are expected
for private applicators (farmers treating their own crops) and commercial applicators. Since no
chemical-specific data are available to assess potential exposure to workers, the exposure and
risk assessment presented in this document are based on the Pesticide Handler Exposure
Database Version 1.1 (PHED, Surrogate Exposure Guide, August 1998). The maximum
application rate listed on the label was used for all calculations. The standard values for acreage
were taken from HED Exposure Science Advisory Committee (Expo SAC) Policy #09, effective
5-JUL-2000. Both the low and high number of acres treated per day were used to demonstrate a
range of potential exposure. When wearing the label required personal protective equipment
(PPE) (single layer of clothing and gloves), all Margins of Exposure (MOEs) do not exceed
HEDís level of concern, with the exception of the intermediate-term mixer/loader in support of
aerial application.
Currently it is HEDís draft policy that short-term endpoint durations may be increased to 30
days on a case by case basis. In the case of mesotrione, the same endpoint [rat developmental
endpoint (LOAEL = 100 mg/kg/day)] is still appropriate for the 0 to 30 day exposure period
since it provides protection for developmental effects seen below maternally toxic doses. For
the proposed use of mesotrione, no longer than 30 days of exposure is expected for both private
and commercial handlers. Using the redefined exposure durations, all MOEs for handler of
mesotrione are below HEDís level of concern.
Workers having potential re-entry exposure to mesotrione from the proposed use include
scouts and workers re-entering treated fields to perform irrigation tasks. Since mesotrione will
be applied at the early stages of crop growth (pre- or post-emergent) and up to corn height of 30
6
inches, low potential for post-application exposure is expected. In order to demonstrate that
minimal exposure and risk are expected, a post-application exposure assessment was done for
scouts. The estimated MOE for scouting activities related to the proposed use of mesotrione on
field corn do not exceed HEDís level of concern
Environmental Fate and Effects Divisionís Review
Mesotrione is not persistent in water and soil as indicated by the photolysis, aerobic and
anaerobic soil metabolism and terrestrial field dissipation studies. Mesotrione degradates are
mobile, thus they have the potential to reach groundwater and/or surface water. Mobility and
persistence are of the greatest concern in cold climates with low pH soils. Additional
information is being required to fully characterize mesotrioneís potential to contaminate ground
water.
Mesotrione has been determined to be practically non-toxic to birds and small mammals,
relatively non-toxic to honey bees, practically non-toxic to warm and cold water fish, and
practically non-toxic to daphnids. EFEDís judgement is that mesotrione is unlikely to present a
risk to aquatic and terrestrial animals on an acute or chronic basis for the tested species. Loss of
habitat and food items may indirectly affect terrestrial and aquatic organisms as a result of
damage to non-target plants from off-target transport. There is a concern for non-target
terrestrial and aquatic plants form the proposed use. Non-target plants may be exposed to
mesotrione by spray drift, blowing dust particles, and runoff and reuse of surface an
groundwater for irrigation. Additional data is being required to fully characterize the risk to nontarget
plants. Labeling statements will advise users about the risks to non-target plants.
Syngenta is a member of the Endangered Species and Spray Drift Task Forces which are
addressing the issue of toxicity to non-target organisms.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-28-2008, 03:41 PM
:)

I am not saying CT is completely irrelevant. I am saying I think there are even more effective products/practices/technologies than CT... Ask yourself if you are selling yourself short by settling with a CT? Please do not answer... we already know it.


i will answer, please explain how im selling my self short?

is that the only component to my land care program?

what are the more effective practices im over looking in my program that you are going to point out?:dizzy:

you know more then me what is approperait for me in my area?
and what does work and what doesn't work practicing organic gardening, sitting home thinking about it all year does not validate your theories, get in the field and prove.

im not the one stuck on whether it's ok or not to use whats appropriate or whats considered inorganic or organic for a landscape" most of US know where to draw the line whats what) with the goal of growing truly healthy plants in the least harmful way to all concerned, i was stuck on that for a month last spring about using syn N ferts and other materials, took about a month for it to be come clear to me
whats the best course to take, and how to make good decisions pertaining their use


i just find it funny there are people out there proving ct MANY benefits and you say we are selling our selves short?:laugh: for some one to say that after your tea making fiasco is pretty bold? be truthful.. you have never used it have you? and don't know anyone locally to see for your self how it can help? even with great soil to begin with?

when it come to reality, and the real world of providing organic practice's for hire, i hope you got alot of wormcast , some great compost and a strong back
to make all that soil right, well you can always just keep feeding the microbes
syn NPK , chem herb,insecticides,fungicides and tell your costumer your doing something special or different because some of the ingredients are synthetically made organic compounds?

ICT Bill
12-28-2008, 10:30 PM
This thread is about corn gluten meal BUT.............

These are practices on properties to get an eventual goal, nice property with a good to great landscape/lawn, how it is achieved is completely up to the caretaker.

There are organizations that have put together guidelines to be organic or use the scotx 4 way guidelines, it doesn't matter, do what you are going to do

If you would like to use sustainable practices that is your choice, good for you.

I/we prefer to look at sustainable practices to meet an end goal, great properties with sustainable practices, DUH

You guys can go on and on as much as you like. the bottom line is, do what you are going to do, if you would like to have great properties with less inputs great. there are a few of us that would like to see that too

Kiril
12-28-2008, 10:35 PM
compost does a soil good

DUSTYCEDAR
12-28-2008, 10:49 PM
True that /\

ICT Bill
12-28-2008, 10:50 PM
compost does a soil good

and compost does a soil good

If you would like to get back to our gluten-8 product I would be happy to answer any questions

Less expensive (as of Nov 1 2008). more effective than bagged, no dust, it doesn't blow your N budget for the year

and it does a soil good

Kiril
12-28-2008, 10:54 PM
and compost does a soil good

If you would like to get back to our gluten-8 product I would be happy to answer any questions

Less expensive (as of Nov 1 2008). more effective than bagged, no dust, it doesn't blow your N budget for the year

and it does a soil good

:laugh: Nice subtle product push there Bill.

My question is ...... where are the studies on this and any of your products? I have seen many mentions, but no links.
If not peer reviewed, you must at least have some published field trials performed by unbiased third parties?

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-28-2008, 11:47 PM
I would be happy to answer any questions

Then do us all a favor and answer them,:dizzy:

go back to the beginning of the thread and go through and answer them one by one?

JDUtah
12-29-2008, 02:59 AM
what are the more effective practices im over looking in my program that you are going to point out?

In your wildest dreams. There is a principle called protecting valuable intellectual property. :dizzy::dizzy:

JDUtah
12-29-2008, 03:13 PM
yes tea can change the biology of the soil, assuming that the tea is good and not just mud water, however its an up hill battle with #'s that are hard to quantify.

I forgot to ask. Sorry it is off topic.

Do you have peer reviewed lit and/or a credible study to support this info?

NattyLawn
12-29-2008, 04:28 PM
I forgot to ask. Sorry it is off topic.

Do you have peer reviewed lit and/or a credible study to support this info?

Nope, we have our high quality compost and castings, a microscope and field results to help with that. Maybe a little common sense too.

JD, you seem like a smart guy. Why don't you climb down off your high horse and do the research yourself? Then instead of running a organic program you'll never get off the ground because you can't find a peer reviewed study, you can be a pioneer in the field of compost tea research. Dr. Elaine Ingham, Tim Wilson, JD Utah...One can dream.

treegal1
12-29-2008, 04:29 PM
I forgot to ask. Sorry it is off topic.

Do you have peer reviewed lit and/or a credible study to support this info?

In your wildest dreams. There is a principle called protecting valuable intellectual property. LOLOL he is like johny knoxvile

JDUtah
12-29-2008, 06:20 PM
Nope, we have our high quality compost and castings, a microscope and field results to help with that. Maybe a little common sense too.

JD, you seem like a smart guy. Why don't you climb down off your high horse and do the research yourself? Then instead of running a organic program you'll never get off the ground because you can't find a peer reviewed study, you can be a pioneer in the field of compost tea research. Dr. Elaine Ingham, Tim Wilson, JD Utah...One can dream.

No thanks as far as CT. (no offense Tim)

I have other interests/paths... IMO because they seem more promising/effective/sustainable...

Time is the only thing that will tell if I have a brain or am just a complete lunatic... :)

JDUtah
12-29-2008, 06:21 PM
In your wildest dreams. There is a principle called protecting valuable intellectual property. LOLOL he is like johny knoxvile

lol, touche

Tim Wilson
12-29-2008, 11:06 PM
No thanks as far as CT. (no offense Tim)

I have other interests/paths... IMO because they seem more promising/effective/sustainable...

Time is the only thing that will tell if I have a brain or am just a complete lunatic... :)

There would be no offense because CT is not all that I am about which I'm sure you can derive from my writings. CT is simply a building block, especially useful when transisting from traditional to natural growing techniques.

If your path does not include the concept that the soil is living and that nutrients are only delivered to plants in sustainable fashion by soil microorganisms, including bacteria, archaea, protozoa, fungi (mycelia; mushrooms) and other natural creatures then you are fooling yourself and will later look back and wish you had not wasted your time. I know that I have brought up nature farming techniques which are the new cutting edge being utilized in Cuba, Thailand, India, etc and you have chosen (apparently) to dismiss these or look down on them but they really are more advanced generally in this respect than us slowpokes here in America.

BTW; intellectual property to be patented must be 100% revealed.

ICT Bill
12-29-2008, 11:38 PM
BTW; intellectual property to be patented must be 100% revealed.

What is very interesting is that you 2 would have never met and shared information just 10 years ago.

sounds like Kentucky Fried Chicken and Coca Cola had the right idea.........trade secret

JDUtah
12-30-2008, 02:09 AM
There would be no offense because CT is not all that I am about which I'm sure you can derive from my writings. CT is simply a building block, especially useful when transisting from traditional to natural growing techniques.

If your path does not include the concept that the soil is living and that nutrients are only delivered to plants in sustainable fashion by soil microorganisms, including bacteria, archaea, protozoa, fungi (mycelia; mushrooms) and other natural creatures then you are fooling yourself and will later look back and wish you had not wasted your time. I know that I have brought up nature farming techniques which are the new cutting edge being utilized in Cuba, Thailand, India, etc and you have chosen (apparently) to dismiss these or look down on them but they really are more advanced generally in this respect than us slowpokes here in America.

BTW; intellectual property to be patented must be 100% revealed.

My program is surely based on soil biology, just not CT's.

Bill hit it... the info is more 'trade secrete' than 'patent' material... I already have my name on one and it brought me nothing other than bragging rights... (patents are good tools, just not ones for the things I have in mind/testing)

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-30-2008, 08:45 AM
[QUOTE=JDUtah;2668424]My program is surely based on soil biology, just not CT's

sounds like you have a firm grasp of what your talking about,

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-30-2008, 08:49 AM
and i can see bill still will not answer any questions pertaining his products?
unless it's about where to buy it?


trade secrets? i say trade disgrace:dizzy:

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-30-2008, 08:53 AM
. the info is more 'trade secrete' .. I already have my name on one and it brought me nothing other than bragging rights...


do tell please?....... does this have something to do with grass clipping and
molasses or fish h in a sealed container?

Prolawnservice
12-30-2008, 09:01 AM
I think I may have sensed a little sarcasm in that last post.

Tim Wilson
12-30-2008, 11:42 AM
My program is surely based on soil biology, just not CT's.

Bill hit it... the info is more 'trade secrete' than 'patent' material... I already have my name on one and it brought me nothing other than bragging rights... (patents are good tools, just not ones for the things I have in mind/testing)

Judging by your episode with creating CT, what you have said about purchasing CT, what you said about mesotrione and your willingness to embrace chemical amendments, I somehow have my doubts. The very fact that you say your program will not be 'based' on CTs shows that you miss the point entirely. It is like me saying (if I was a landscaper), my program is not based on my lawnmower.

treegal1
12-30-2008, 11:56 AM
Judging by your episode with creating CT, what you have said about purchasing CT, what you said about mesotrione and your willingness to embrace chemical amendments, I somehow have my doubts. The very fact that you say your program will not be 'based' on CTs shows that you miss the point entirely. It is like me saying (if I was a landscaper), my program is not based on my lawnmower.

I must admit that he has given me some ideas, for instance,

the compost "jar test" with the fish H and molasses, I am trying it except that I used 4, 100 yard live bottom trucks full of yard waste, and a C 200 sprayer out doors. some interesting things learned there.

the ghetto brewer led me to get a used tank, and see what happens with a flat bottom amd to little air, and again with more air, and so on. lesson learned, proper theory and testing with some design tweaking can make good tea( not great) but it works.

and others.......................

DUSTYCEDAR
12-30-2008, 12:05 PM
tree has all the toys to use.

treegal1
12-30-2008, 12:11 PM
tree has all the toys to use.
oh god I wish, or maybe not

its really just a simple 4 piles O sh*t lay-ed out in a field that will not get used till next year, the truck was a loaner.

this is being done on the farm so not a whole lot of machinery, no chipper or grinder there, whole yard waste. and a simple idea............we will se what happens:)

DUSTYCEDAR
12-30-2008, 12:12 PM
well lets see

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-30-2008, 12:26 PM
tree,

how did the brewing in sprayer turn out? did you use the lesco stock tank?

DUSTYCEDAR
12-30-2008, 12:27 PM
yeah tree =====

treegal1
12-30-2008, 12:37 PM
had to keep the sprayer working but I got a 100 gallon lesco tank for a song( it had an extra hole cut in the top so it will never go down the road again.

at .08 cfm of air with 4, 6 inch stones it was not really tea as the water did not move well so to "extract" the herd, hen I added a small pump and that sort of worked( damaged fungals). next I did a pvc pipe( well tip ) with tons of small holes dead down the middle and .09 cfm to the gallon, with an mechanical agitator( drywall mud paddle ) and a slow speed motor that was timed to come on ever 45 minutes for 15 minutes, that seamed to work out ok. I then took the air and tank on the raod, to see if it could be done in transit and the air only thing works as long as the van was moved ever 3-4 hours( it was messy with the extra hole in the tank)

next experiment was a 55 gallon drum on its side and I have not worked that out yet. I also did a no air bio-dynamic tea that was OK- good, with a solar pump and 3 bio shells.

JDUtah
12-30-2008, 01:22 PM
do tell please?....... does this have something to do with grass clipping and
molasses or fish h in a sealed container?

lol. Not green industry related at all. It is a process and image (not picture) that we created to load onto the Siemens SX56 cell phone. Oh, you mean the trade secrete... no bottled ferts at all. Do you use fish H, humates, molasses, etc for your CTs? :nono:

Judging by your episode with creating CT, what you have said about purchasing CT, what you said about mesotrione and your willingness to embrace chemical amendments, I somehow have my doubts. The very fact that you say your program will not be 'based' on CTs shows that you miss the point entirely. It is like me saying (if I was a landscaper), my program is not based on my lawnmower.

Tim,
If a landscaper installs native plants he does not need a lawnmower... Tree didn't need a lawnmower for her grass until she ate it (the lawn cutting thing). Thinking outside the box and being willing to fall on your face a few times is not a bad rout to take. You have light in your house because someone once fell on his face 10,000 times... So you assume I am ignorant because I think in more unorthodox ways? Again, like I said... I think CT worshipers limit their potential.

PS... One point that I see people are missing is that nature does not apply CT's. (Although it can apply microbes)

Do microbes eat mesotrione? Are effective concentrations of CG derived peptides less toxic? Who is missing the point??

I must admit that he has given me some ideas, for instance,

the compost "jar test" with the fish H and molasses, I am trying it except that I used 4, 100 yard live bottom trucks full of yard waste, and a C 200 sprayer out doors. some interesting things learned there.

the ghetto brewer led me to get a used tank, and see what happens with a flat bottom and to little air, and again with more air, and so on. lesson learned, proper theory and testing with some design tweaking can make good tea( not great) but it works.

and others.......................

I'm glad you stay open minded. Although you might end up with more "failed" attempts, it is what allows you to stay ahead of the curve. I find it ironic the amount of questions you just received about your trials... it is easy to differentiate who the real leaders and followers are... in this case.

treegal1
12-30-2008, 01:31 PM
lol. Not green industry related at all. It is a process and image (not picture) that we created to load onto the Siemens SX56 smart phone.



Tim,
If a landscaper installs native plants he does not need a lawnmower... Tree didn't need a lawnmower for her grass until she ate it (the lawn cutting thing). Thinking outside the box and being willing to fall on your face a few times is not a bad rout to take. You have light in your house because someone once fell on his face 10,000 times... So you assume I am ignorant because I think in more unorthodox ways? Again, like I said... I think CT worshipers limit their potential.

PS... One point that I see people are missing is that nature does not apply CT's. (Although it can apply microbes) Do microbes eat mesotrione? Are CG derived peptides less toxic?



I'm glad you stay open minded. Although you end up with more "failed" attempts, it is what allows you to stay ahead of the curve.
yes and the thing of my failures is that i did not set off to fail in the first place, unless of course it was to reproduce a failure.

yes your correct to say that nature does not use ACT or CT, in the same token if it was natural to start with then I would not be needed from the start, so I get hired to fix the broken system. maybe from years of tea will i make a dent in the soil and its tilth and fertility. and maybe so much damage has been done that it will take a longer time.

most of the time nature makes its own compost over a long time and that's a real hard sell..........

JDUtah
12-30-2008, 01:39 PM
yes and the thing of my failures is that i did not set off to fail in the first place......

That's obvious????????

Tim Wilson
12-30-2008, 02:06 PM
You have light in your house because someone once fell on his face 10,000 times... So you assume I am ignorant because I think in more unorthodox ways? Again, like I said... I think CT worshipers limit their potential.


I actually prefer a longhouse and to burn fat for light. I do need a generator for my scopes and computers though. I should get that metane digester built. Right now my heat is from wood.

I do not think you ignorant unless you interpret that to mean uneducated and unenlightened.

Who worships CT?. It is a tool which comes to a close approximation to natural processes. It is a tool used to flood the soil/leaves with a high number of diverse microbes. It is especially useful to transition from chemical practices, even more useful when there is a disease such as erwinia or powdery mildew caused by chemicals.

I may be repeating myself but I first started in this field of study through contemplation of patches of plants in the wild which grew year after year unaided by fertilizers, etc. From my university studies I was familiar with cellular communication and interdependence in the human physiology/psychology. I knew that there were microbes thriving in the human gut, which were key to digestion, nutrient assimilation and even behavior as they control what passes the blood-brain barrier. When one is ill or has had a course of anti-biotics they often need to repopulate their gut with the correct healthy microbes. Many people take probiotics to this effect. It is soil borne organisms which comprise the most effective of these probiotics. Before people became disconnected from the basic earth, foraging for roots, mushrooms, growing their own vegetables, hunting, etc., there was always a certain amount of dirt and wild microbes in their diet, assisting to strengthen their immune system. Now, with Krap Dinner and all kinds of antiseptic foods, we have our buddy, cancer.

I figured that there was a similar system at play with wild plants. I started making fermented concoctions and experimenting with various plants. Of course, I discovered that many people were researching and working in this area and I was led to EM and then ACT.

These are only convenient approximations to assist with microbial based horticulture. They are like the probiotics in response to the chemicals which have been applied.

That you fixated on the word lawnmower is telling, think you not? Shovel, hoe, tractor, truck keys.

NattyLawn
12-30-2008, 02:10 PM
Tim,
If a landscaper installs native plants he does not need a lawnmower... Tree didn't need a lawnmower for her grass until she ate it (the lawn cutting thing). Thinking outside the box and being willing to fall on your face a few times is not a bad rout to take. You have light in your house because someone once fell on his face 10,000 times... So you assume I am ignorant because I think in more unorthodox ways? Again, like I said... I think CT worshipers limit their potential.

<<No one on here thinks of compost tea as a silver bullet. I think that's the part you're not getting. Who here is limiting their potential? I have access to just about any product out there (except for the subject of this thread). I conduct trials based on feedback from our field work and from customers. I'm not limiting my potential or shoving tea down people's throats. It's a useful tool. I do think there should be standards though, so the industry as a whole can move forward. You've never produced a quality product, and it sounds like you haven't purchased one either, yet you talk ****. Who's the one limiting their potential??



I'm glad you stay open minded. Although you might end up with more "failed" attempts, it is what allows you to stay ahead of the curve. I find it ironic the amount of questions you just received about your trials... it is easy to differentiate who the real leaders and followers are... in this case.

Easy to say when you've done NOTHING in this industry...

JDUtah
12-30-2008, 02:15 PM
I actually prefer a longhouse and to burn fat for light. I do need a generator for my scopes and computers though. I should get that metane digester built. Right now my heat is from wood.

I do not think you ignorant unless you interpret that to mean uneducated and unenlightened.

Who worships CT?. It is a tool which comes to a close approximation to natural processes. It is a tool used to flood the soil/leaves with a high number of diverse microbes. It is especially useful to transition from chemical practices, even more useful when there is a disease such as erwinia or powdery mildew caused by chemicals.

I may be repeating myself but I first started in this field of study through contemplation of patches of plants in the wild which grew year after year unaided by fertilizers, etc. From my university studies I was familiar with cellular communication and interdependence in the human physiology/psychology. I knew that there were microbes thriving in the human gut, which were key to digestion, nutrient assimilation and even behavior as they control what passes the blood-brain barrier. When one is ill or has had a course of anti-biotics they often need to repopulate their gut with the correct healthy microbes. Many people take probiotics to this effect. It is soil borne organisms which comprise the most effective of these probiotics. Before people became disconnected from the basic earth, foraging for roots, mushrooms, growing their own vegetables, hunting, etc., there was always a certain amount of dirt and wild microbes in their diet, assisting to strengthen their immune system. Now, with Krap Dinner and all kinds of antiseptic foods, we have our buddy, cancer.

I figured that there was a similar system at play with wild plants. I started making fermented concoctions and experimenting with various plants. Of course, I discovered that many people were researching and working in this area and I was led to EM and then ACT.

These are only convenient approximations to assist with microbial based horticulture. They are like the probiotics in response to the chemicals which have been applied.

That you fixated on the word lawnmower is telling, think you not? Shovel, hoe, tractor, truck keys.

What peer reviewed studies have you published? What advanced college degree do you hold?

Are you not selling tea brewers and working to sell tea testing microscopes? You do realize that you are not very different than Bill. (Note: hiding behind your chosen outback style of living does not void your need/desire for money)

Again you guys miss the point... but I give up. Seems time is the only thing that will open yours and my eyes...

NattyLawn
12-30-2008, 02:24 PM
What peer reviewed studies have you published? What advanced college degree do you hold?

Are you not selling tea brewers and working to sell tea testing microscopes? You do realize that you are not very different than Bill. (Note: hiding behind your chosen outback style of living does not void your need/desire for money)

Again you guys miss the point... but I give up. Seems time is the only thing that will open yours and my eyes...

Wow....Wow...You and rcreech should hang out....2 of the most closed minded people on this site....Oops...I forgot your "organic".

JDUtah
12-30-2008, 02:25 PM
<<No one on here thinks of compost tea as a silver bullet. I think that's the part you're not getting.

Maybe it is the part I am not getting. But then the question always comes... why does Bill get such crap for his product? Why do people get all bent out of shape when I say I do not prefer CT?

Who here is limiting their potential? I have access to just about any product out there (except for the subject of this thread). I conduct trials based on feedback from our field work and from customers.

Have you tried Bills 123? Why not? Because it isn't "AACT"? :nono:

I'm not limiting my potential or shoving tea down people's throats. It's a useful tool.

Did you not say to me...
"you can be a pioneer in the field of compost tea research. Dr. Elaine Ingham, Tim Wilson, JD Utah...One can dream."

I do think there should be standards though, so the industry as a whole can move forward. You've never produced a quality product, and it sounds like you haven't purchased one either, yet you talk ****. Who's the one limiting their potential??

Just because I have not mentioned amazing results you assume I do not have them? Well that's ignorant. The truth is, you guys are my competition.

Easy to say when you've done NOTHING in this industry...

Again, ignorant assumption...

But oh well... both sides are being too proud to relate to each other appropriately... neither of us have our eyes/ears open right now... so I take a break...

Tim Wilson
12-30-2008, 02:29 PM
Are you not selling tea brewers and working to sell tea testing microscopes?

Yes, because I believe in spreading this concept. I have made really no money at all but do hope to eventually bring in a modest income. I created an efficient affordable brewer so people without big money would have an alternative. I'm presently working on an affordable liquid compost extractor and microscopes for the same reason. The only reason I am able to do this is because I received a huge $10K inheritance. I presently live on about $900 per month.

BUT what does this have to do with anything? Can you not come back with something better than this? How about; Your mother wears army boots?

In retrospect I'm so glad I did not narrow my vision by pursuing a doctorate. Published studies will come($).

phasthound
12-30-2008, 02:34 PM
[QUOTE=JDUtah

But oh well... both sides are being too proud to relate to each other appropriately... neither of us have our eyes/ears open right now... so I take a break...[/QUOTE]

C'mon now, I'm injoying your posts.

NattyLawn
12-30-2008, 02:36 PM
Maybe it is the part I am not getting. But then the question always comes... why does Bill get such crap for his product? Why do people get all bent out of shape when I say I do not prefer CT?

If that's all you said, I would be fine with it. It's the "extras" you tack on, with no experience.


Have you tried Bills 123? Why not? Because it isn't "AACT"? :nono:

I have not tried 123. I have not used it because I can get the fish, seaweed, humates, myco and hell, I'll even throw in some EM for good measure, cheaper than his .67 cents per k with more product at a higher rate of dilution. If only Bill would admit his product is not tea. Oh wait, he did. He called it a tea, then an extract a few posts later.



Just because I have not mentioned amazing results you assume I do not have them? Well that's ignorant. The truth is, you guys are my competition.

No offense, but you're not my competition.

treegal1
12-30-2008, 02:49 PM
The truth is, you guys are my competition.

SH*T NOT EVEN ON YOUR BEST DAY.

Move units, then talk sh*t and we can do this
Until then - I ain't even speakin your name

JDUtah
12-30-2008, 02:53 PM
.

SH*T NOT EVEN ON YOUR BEST DAY.

Move units, then talk sh*t and we can do this
Until then - I ain't even speakin your name

lol one day my company may be in Florida. But the point was made with an understanding that I am not the only person from Utah that browses/reads this forum... it is a public forum...

DUSTYCEDAR
12-30-2008, 04:13 PM
I am glad that tim shares what he know with us.
i dont care that anyone is trying to make a buck areant we all?
bill is just doing his job and helps pay for this site so we can all poke each other with a stick.

Kiril
12-30-2008, 05:46 PM
C'mon now, I'm injoying your posts.

At least you have a clam head. :laugh:

phasthound
12-30-2008, 06:39 PM
At least you have a clam head. :laugh:

Just spit beer all over my keyboard!! :D

I deal with a company named Injoy, hence my spell check did not pick up on it.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-31-2008, 05:20 AM
Maybe it is the part I am not getting.. why does Bill get such crap for his product?

why does he get crap from me? how about i'll explain it again the the millionth time, it's not what his product is or isn't, although the name is misleading i could careless what he puts in a bottle and wants to sell, the problem i have is the over the top claims?? the numerous time he's says "HE puts himself out there saying" he has SFI testing,study reports proving his product claims, and how when he's ASKED DIRECT QUESTIONS about his product and claims??? he will never answer???? show me one time he does?

i'm mean hey, if you what to give him a pass cause he's a nice guy and a sponsor so be it, if you think your getting results at that those dilutions. great! doesn't mean i have to sit here and not question him and his claims when he has nothing to back them up except his word.

if that works for you, great, maybe im a different type of person in that
i get more bothered by salesman type people who seem more out to make a quick buck then real facts? there's nothing wrong with making a buck, but
is that the way you have to make it? by making over the top claims, then divert any questions one might have for one's product?:dizzy:

Have you tried Bills 123? Why not? Because it isn't "AACT"? :nono:

your right it's not AACT. been to his web site? one would think it was CT? but again, i have no idea what to think seeing that site, no MSDS,no anything explaining his products, guess we should just take his word?
if you research what applications the biology in his product is used for, you can pretty much come to an conclusion and those dilution rates what is the value of it.
perhaps i think he's more into making the quick buck,then making a difference?
who really knows what his agenda is? i never can get a straight answer from him? i dare anybody to get a straight answer from him, AM I THE ONLY ONE??

i could care less what reports or tests he's got! HE brings them up? HE says he has them? all i ask is where are they and can we see them? SINCE HE SAYS HE HAS THEM????:nono:





and as far as shoving CT down your throat? i think it's more about explaining to you that there are many variables too it and sometimes it can't be summed up in somebodies test study, thats it , end of story

you can now feel free to misinterpret what i said....................:hammerhead:

Smallaxe
12-31-2008, 09:19 AM
Compost is compost tea w/out the water and a greater food source.

Tim Wilson
12-31-2008, 11:12 AM
Compost is compost tea w/out the water and a greater food source.

While I agree that compost is the way to go in growing if you have enough of it, I have to say the difference with CT is that the microbes have been woken up and multiplied by the billions and CT contains virtually no OM.

HAPPY NEW YEAR Y'ALL

Smallaxe
12-31-2008, 05:07 PM
I can see that that both would give a lawn a great jump start. Especially one that is in the process of converting over.
Happy New Year !!!

ICT Bill
01-01-2009, 10:31 PM
While I agree that compost is the way to go in growing if you have enough of it, I have to say the difference with CT is that the microbes have been woken up and multiplied by the billions and CT contains virtually no OM.

HAPPY NEW YEAR Y'ALL

Our's does

Have you tried Bills 123? Why not? Because it isn't "AACT"? who coined the AACT term, did she have something to capitalize on, now in 11 countries, huh?. growingroots has based his business on this. show me the data. I keep asking, SHOW ME THE DATA from your business

Where are the university studies? GROWING where is your data????

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-02-2009, 02:23 AM
Our's does

who coined the AACT term, did she have something to capitalize on, now in 11 countries, huh?. growingroots has based his business on this. show me the data. I keep asking, SHOW ME THE DATA from your business

Where are the university studies? GROWING where is your data????

is this guy for real?? after posting here he sends me a pm saying he stoked about the 2009 season and that my company rocks?????? :laugh:



bill,
your product has OM? thats your come back? your not for real are you?

thats back up, a minute, remember when you said before that just like your product that my program might not work for ANYBODY depending on where they are in the world?...... why is that?

im not doing anything that special except practicing BASIC organic practices
that have been used for many many years, how much more basic is feeding
the soil and letting the soil feed the plant?:dizzy: put me ANYWHERE in the world and i will grow plants.

now your busting on ELAINE????? she's done more in one day to help change minds and educate others to alternative ways to garden then you will EVER!:nono: notice i said one day? if she's fake then your.... well...less then that.

so your SFI report is bull now??? the one YOU say YOU have proving your
product has better bug #'s then most AACT made??

did you not say that? once again you show little integrity

I based my biz on CT's???, you are one of a kind i have to say and miss the point by a mile, how about i spell it out for you? it's a TOOL! sort of like Y@#

where's my studies?? I"M NOT THE ONE SAYING I HAVE THEM, you are

i base my conclusions on results, I sell a service to people who want to grow
landscapes naturally as possible, ct is one PART of the equation,

do i need a study proving organic gardening WORKS????????

i ask YOU because YOU SAY YOU HAVE THEM?????? do you not say that????
so what give's? if you don't have them...fine, but you say YOU do and YOU say you can BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS WITH THEM? do you not?

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

once again you show your TRUE COLORS :clapping::clapping::clapping:
by diverting attention AGAIN:cry:

and by the way for a first year biz, thanks my company does ROCK:cool2:
wonder how big I will GROW:weightlifter:

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-02-2009, 02:40 AM
if anybody wants a "VIABLE" alternative to bills product that more potent and less money over the long run, that will deliver REAL results contact me through pm i'll show you how,

NattyLawn
01-02-2009, 08:39 AM
It's a shame you can only access 1000 posts because Bill was flaunting his relationship with SFI when he first got the ball rolling on this site. And for you to insinuate they have their hands in other peoples pockets is probably true, but what does that say about your product then? Should we really believe that your "tea" or extract has more diversity than an AACT? How much did you pay for your results?

What gives your product it's OM? Surely it can't be the accelerator that contains the humates, fish, seaweed, molasses, corn sugars, boron, chilean nitrate, etc? Because if you mixed these foods in with the "tea" or extract, you would have exploded bottles of your product everywhere, even with the vented caps.

I just don't get the attack on Charlie when you haven't show any data to date or answered any questions pertaining to the CGH.....

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-02-2009, 07:29 PM
I just don't get the attack on Charlie when you haven't show any data to date or answered any questions pertaining to the CGH.....

It's bill's M O when it comes to these things..

ignore.......divert.........attack.......or make a commercial out it?:hammerhead:

I suspect over time he will keep making his true intentions clearer to all of us:waving:

Smallaxe
01-03-2009, 08:48 AM
It's bill's M O when it comes to these things..

ignore.......divert.........attack.......or make a commercial out it?:hammerhead:

I suspect over time he will keep making his true intentions clearer to all of us:waving:

One thing that a lot of people never seem to objectively understand is that - working with the competition makes both parties richer.

There are some LCOs in my neighborhood that hate me just because I am an LCO myself. He is always grubbing for pennies and never available to work with someone else on a 'farmed out' job, because helping someone else only hurts him.

In reality if I team up with someone on a project and help make him look good he is then able to pick up a better set of clientelle. With my association with him this also widens my base of people who want skilled professional help.

On the other hand the potential clients say - I hear this guy is kr@&#* and so is this other one, but as far as I know we are ok with the #3 LCO.
I guess what I am trying to say is - I am sure that there is a couple of salesmen here that is losing credability and sales even as we speak. Is this how we "educate"? :laugh:

growingdeeprootsorganicly
01-03-2009, 09:10 AM
to whom it my concern,.......all that post here

I publicly just what to apologize for any time i take it over the top with my at times
not so thought out words, by letting emotions get the better of me,

i'm not here to bash any one, thats not why i first came to this site and it's not the reason i keep posting here.

again i what to apologize too anyone i might have indirectly offended by my actions.

by working compassionately, honestly and intelligently together is the only way to move in the right direction to bring awareness and understanding to all