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View Full Version : Liquid Dimension vs WSP


mngrassguy
12-29-2008, 04:26 AM
According to my supplier, liquid based Dimension is much more effective than WSP. He says it gets better coverage because of the smaller molecules. IDK :confused:

rcreech
12-29-2008, 08:11 AM
Don't know the comparison of liquid and a WSP...but from the data I just seen from OSU at the OTF...they say we should ONLY be using granular pre's unless watered in within a few days.

Their data shown that the liquid Pre's just didn't hold up due to photdegredation and product not getting to the soil.

It was amazing data. Night and day!

With Dimension it was like 90%+ vs less then 30% after 180 days. That much differnent using the same AI...just liquid vs gran.

Not sure if it would be the same in your area or not...but I know I am not going to use liquid!

Grandview
12-29-2008, 08:20 AM
I think your supplier is misinformed. First how much more effective is it suppose to be. Second both products will go into solution. Molecular size is not determined by formulation. Third your coverage is determined by gals/acre. the more gallons you use the better the coverage. Fourth is coverage really a concern when most dimension is put down with fertilizer which probably gives you less coverage than 5 gal/acre would. My experience is that coverage is not a problem with dimension/fert products. I have a BS in soils which required two years of chemistry.

Marcos
12-29-2008, 10:10 AM
According to my supplier, liquid based Dimension is much more effective than WSP. He says it gets better coverage because of the smaller molecules. IDK :confused:

Hmmm....That sounds like some sort of contrived marketing ploy to me.
I'll bet ya he only handles liquid Dimension products, am I right?

mngrassguy
12-29-2008, 04:21 PM
Nope. He sells it all. Says that's what suppliers and applicators are telling him. Liquid is a lot moe expensive.

Are you offering an opinion because you've used both?

JDUtah
12-29-2008, 04:35 PM
Can you post pdf's of both labels? The carrier is the important factor that determines molecule size/solubility/coverage... They might even be the same thing?

mngrassguy
12-29-2008, 05:12 PM
http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld5T1007.pdf


http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld7ND000.pdf

I think

FdLLawnMan
12-29-2008, 05:24 PM
Don't know the comparison of liquid and a WSP...but from the data I just seen from OSU at the OTF...they say we should ONLY be using granular pre's unless watered in within a few days.

Their data shown that the liquid Pre's just didn't hold up due to photdegredation and product not getting to the soil.

It was amazing data. Night and day!

With Dimension it was like 90%+ vs less then 30% after 180 days. That much differnent using the same AI...just liquid vs gran.

Not sure if it would be the same in your area or not...but I know I am not going to use liquid!

Rodney

I this in a paper that OSU did. That is very good information that needs to known by us. I have used Dimension in the WSP form for years and thought it would work better, guess not.

rcreech
12-29-2008, 06:22 PM
Rodney

I this in a paper that OSU did. That is very good information that needs to known by us. I have used Dimension in the WSP form for years and thought it would work better, guess not.

Mike,

I have used granular dimension the last two years and havn't been exactly happy with it...but it has been more weather releted for me!

We just had WAY too much rain early!

I don't have a paper, but it was a talk put on by Dr Street at OSU. I will see if I can find some info on his talk.

His main bring home for his talk was...GO FULL RATE and don't cut back. He said that the biggest reason for breaks is that we sometimes are on the low end of the range for application.

Will let you know if I find something...but if not you may want to e-mail him and he can send you the info.

Marcos
12-29-2008, 10:27 PM
Nope. He sells it all. Says that's what suppliers and applicators are telling him. Liquid is a lot moe expensive.

Are you offering an opinion because you've used both?

Personally, I've never cared much for liquid Dimension EC because the oil-based formulation stunk to high heaven.

I understand that there's a new water-based Dimension 2EW.
I'll have to scour for some pricing, and do the math sometime to see if this is cost-effective for me, vs. what I've been doing with the WSP for almost a decade now.
I can't imagine it would make much if any difference, cost/acre wise.
It sure as heck can't be any EASIER than WSP!

We don't "blanket spray" Dimension, as a rule. Our established customers have turf that's easily thick enough to crowd out crabgrass & other annuals on its own.
So we use limit the use of Dimension WSP to high-stress places like sidewalk and driveway edges, where homeowners tend to like to beat the bejesus out of the soil with their weed eaters every weekend. :laugh:
And, as a result, we don't go through very much Dimension.

Besides, every year we're getting more and more calls for corn gluten application for annual weed prevention.

As far as "smaller molecules" are concerned, Grandview's right!
Dimension IS Dimension.
I'll be willing to bet that this guy has a personal sales incentive from DowAgrosciences to sell the new Dimension 2EW product.

mngrassguy
12-29-2008, 11:30 PM
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:corn gluten :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Marcos
12-31-2008, 12:13 AM
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:corn gluten :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

...works every bit as well as Dimension, Pre-M, Barricade or whatever, applied in a timely manner & at the correct rate per 1000 sq ft (or acre), of course.

Plus, as corn gluten decomposes, it feeds the soil.
Tell me, mn, does Dimension do THAT? :)

Real Green
12-31-2008, 01:10 AM
Here we go. Mngrassguy... this thread is going to go to a handbasket if you continue this with Marcos... trust me. The conversation over dimension is turning organic with the concept of corn gluten.

I am with RCREECH in terms of granular application of Dimension...

mngrassguy
12-31-2008, 02:18 AM
Here we go. Mngrassguy... this thread is going to go to a handbasket if you continue this with Marcos... trust me. The conversation over dimension is turning organic with the concept of corn gluten.

I am with RCREECH in terms of granular application of Dimension...

It's all ready gone. So is Marcos. Thats why God created the iggy buttom. :laugh:

Real Green
12-31-2008, 09:21 AM
It's all ready gone. So is Marcos. Thats why God created the iggy buttom. :laugh:

I had no idea there was such a feature! Angels are rejoicing and trumpets are sounding right now in my office! He's gone! It's all gone!

rcreech
12-31-2008, 09:29 AM
Fill me in boys!


I NEED Iggy!


Actually I need Iggy for a few! :laugh:

mngrassguy
12-31-2008, 10:56 PM
Hey, what happened to the iggy button? I'm holding my breath 'till they bring it back.:cry:

There used to be one right? Might be all that "corn gluten" I inhaled last spring.:laugh:

daveyo
01-01-2009, 11:37 AM
Mike,

I have used granular dimension the last two years and havn't been exactly happy with it...but it has been more weather releted for me!

We just had WAY too much rain early!


His main bring home for his talk was...GO FULL RATE and don't cut back.

I agree with way to much rain affecting the effectiveness, However I don't agree so much with going full rate as he said. I have had great success with with a split app of granular .10% and then second .15% we don't go max rates . We get our biggest out breaks in August so we use a higher AI for the second app. If we do get a lot of rain then I may get some hot spots, you know around pool edges, sidewalk edges around driveways. I'll hit it with Drive and charge the customer. The customer knows this and it works out fine.

rcreech
01-01-2009, 04:37 PM
What Doc was saying....is we are seeing much more break through out here then we used to. He thinks it is coming from guys cutting back on product to:

A) Save money
B) Save money
C) Save money

I agree with him!

What he was saying is the products have not changed, and when used at the correct rates, control is great!

I was thinking about going split rate this year, but their data also shown that there was no better control with split vs full rate up front.

I do agree with you that in a super wet spring the split app should work better, but again OSU showed no reason to do so.

I have just decided to increase my AI/K this year on lawns that I had some issues on this year. On my thicker lawns I am going to keep it the same.

mngrassguy
01-01-2009, 07:00 PM
I only use split apps on lawns that have had issues with weeds in the past-20%. Most others get a single app of Dimension with fert. A few get corn gluten and some just get straight fert and spot spray WSP along drives, streets and sidewalks.

I've blanket treated lawns with WSP in the past but I get better control with granular Dimension.

I will be testing WSP vs liquid this spring.

mngrassguy
01-01-2009, 07:06 PM
Per Michael Donovan:

for the ignore feature, click on a members profile and at the top you will see where it says "User Lists"...click on that and a drop down menu appears where you can choose the "ignore" feature...

Thanks Mike. I was starting to turn blue.:laugh:

PSUTURFGEEK
01-01-2009, 11:02 PM
If you havn't already tryed this in the past and with the cost of material coming down try a mini or an elite tyed to dimension or barricade, you will be pleasantly surprised with the results, I have found this to be a huge advantage over standard particle size products.

rcreech
01-01-2009, 11:09 PM
If you havn't already tryed this in the past and with the cost of material coming down try a mini or an elite tyed to dimension or barricade, you will be pleasantly surprised with the results, I have found this to be a huge advantage over standard particle size products.


AWESOME POINT!

That is a biggy that I forgot to mention from the OSU talk.

SGN is also a BIG factor!

If I remember correctly they wanted <200.

daveyo
01-01-2009, 11:10 PM
What Doc was saying....is we are seeing much more break through out here then we used to. He thinks it is coming from guys cutting back on product to:

A) Save money
B) Save money
C) Save money

I agree with him!

What he was saying is the products have not changed, and when used at the correct rates, control is great!

I was thinking about going split rate this year, but their data also shown that there was no better control with split vs full rate up front.

I do agree with you that in a super wet spring the split app should work better, but again OSU showed no reason to do so.

I have just decided to increase my AI/K this year on lawns that I had some issues on this year. On my thicker lawns I am going to keep it the same.

I read the same thing from OSU and I can't argue their results but I've had much better results with a split app. One year I did a single app at the higher rate with great timing and we had a serious break through in late July. I had to go around and spray drive at basically cost, never again! Our local JD/lesco rep told me march of 2008 guys weren't doing split apps to save money. I say if they can get away with it then good for them.


Last season we had an atrociously wet spring and I was grateful we decided on split apps again. I do agree that on thicker lawns you have more options and we do take that into consideration. But again for us split apps give longer control.

RAlmaroad
01-02-2009, 07:25 AM
Gallery really works well for St. Augustine and Centipede. It has the least root pruning effect for these grasses and as for cost--a pound will cover an acre. The growing season (April 1 though November 1) in the south is much longer than other places. This requires an application about every 90 days especially on irrigated properties. With my all liquid program, by the end of the season the lawns are so thick that weeds don't have much of a chance. I don't mind the cost for a product that works well.

Victor
01-03-2009, 09:12 PM
I used Dimension WSP last year with top-notch results. Before last year, I had always used granular exclusively, with marginal results. I tried split apps, as well as single apps with granular blends. I got better control last year than I ever had with granular.

rcreech
01-03-2009, 10:16 PM
I used Dimension WSP last year with top-notch results. Before last year, I had always used granular exclusively, with marginal results. I tried split apps, as well as single apps with granular blends. I got better control last year than I ever had with granular.

Hey Vic! Good to see ya on here as it has been a long time since we have seen ya.

Question, as just being a devil's advocate.

1) OSU's data didn't show any difference between WSP and Gran when watered in. This spring we had a lot of rain and that is what is needed for the WSP to be as affective from what OSU has found in their studies.

2) Could it be you are getting better coverage or more uniform application from using a liquid application?

Even at full rate when using granular, if the SGN is too big one can still have some trouble with getting a "good barier" due to not getting enough prills/inch.

I think they both have their goods and bads and good years and bad years.

I know my results have sucked that last year with granular...but I very sure it was weather related. Two droughts in a row and way too much rain this spring. Not a good combination! :cry:


Take care Vic and give me a call when you get a chance!

RC

Victor
01-04-2009, 12:58 AM
You know what Buddy? I called you this afternoon and left you a message. I heard you needed to talk to me about something.
You're right. I HAVE been scarce around these parts, as of lately.

I think the larger than ideal prill size of the granular product I used had a lot to do with it's decreased efficacy. I'm really particular about getting good, even coverage with whatever product I'm putting down. I think you're right about the beTter coverage I got from the WSP being the main reason it gave such good results.

I've noticed that sometimes the test plots at OSU don't accurately reflect the results I see out there on my customer's lawns. I use the results those test plots yield as a good barometer, but not a holy grail.

I'll talk to you soon. :)

Hey Vic! Good to see ya on here as it has been a long time since we have seen ya.

Question, as just being a devil's advocate.

1) OSU's data didn't show any difference between WSP and Gran when watered in. This spring we had a lot of rain and that is what is needed for the WSP to be as affective from what OSU has found in their studies.

2) Could it be you are getting better coverage or more uniform application from using a liquid application?

Even at full rate when using granular, if the SGN is too big one can still have some trouble with getting a "good barier" due to not getting enough prills/inch.

I think they both have their goods and bads and good years and bad years.

I know my results have sucked that last year with granular...but I very sure it was weather related. Two droughts in a row and way too much rain this spring. Not a good combination! :cry:


Take care Vic and give me a call when you get a chance!

RC

greendoctor
01-04-2009, 01:20 AM
When applying liquids, there is a big difference between a high volume application and a low volume application left for the rain to carry in. There is a lot to be said for a 3-5 gallon/M application on lawns that are not irrigated when the AI is a preemergent. In my location, if I tried to spray preemergents at under 20 GPA and not water it in immediately, I would see control failures left and right.

mngrassguy
01-05-2009, 12:33 AM
Thanks Geendoctor. Do you use WSP, liquid or both? Which work better in your opinion?

Has anyone tested both side-to-side?

DUSTYCEDAR
01-05-2009, 02:10 PM
IF YOU CUT BACK TO MUCH IT WILL FAIL
i do splits with gran mini prill and get great control

greendoctor
01-05-2009, 02:28 PM
Thanks Geendoctor. Do you use WSP, liquid or both? Which work better in your opinion?

Has anyone tested both side-to-side?

I can detect no significant difference between the two. However, my application parameters are at a much higher standard. Products are applied in a minimum of 40 GPA, through a boom utilizing flat fan nozzles and watered in with a 1/4" of irrigation. All treatment areas are either irrigated or I do not apply anything. A weed breakthrough in my area consists of severe infestation by broadleaf weeds. The majority of my preemergent applications is in landscaped beds and ground cover areas. Fixing a breakthrough is much harder than applying Three-Way or some other post emergent herbicide.

mngrassguy
01-08-2009, 03:00 AM
I have to start rd 1 with granular because many leaves are still on the ground. Because I start so early, many irrigation systems have not been started yet. Many times, weeds start to pop before systems are started due to the chance of frost.

I agree with a min of 40 GPA. I spray at 3-4 gls/1000 so I have less drift.