Problem with Shallow Well pump

[hgiljr]

Hello all. I have a Flotec Shallow WEll pump along with the pre-charge tank. On the outlet side of the pump I have a T with a hose valve to make priming easier if needed. What is happening lately once the pre-charge tank empties out, the pump is having a hard time sucking in water after I let it sit for a day or so. What happens after the day passes and the tank empties is that you hear the pump trying to suck water but with no success. I have to go to the hose valve, open it a bit to release the air in there and then it will be able to suck water. I have redone the complete piping from the check valve to the inlet, I have rethread the outlet side and still same problem. When this occurs, I have removed the primp screw on the inlet side and there is water in there. I have also unscrewed the universal fitting I have and there is also water in there. What can be causing this air capture or causing for me to open the hose valve to release the air? Could it be the pump that has lost strength through the years (around 5-6 years old) that is causing this air as it tries to suck up water? Any info or help appreciated. Thanks

[Wet_Boots]

Always suspect suction-side leaks. By the way, Flo-Tec is low-grade crapola, and professionals sneer at it.

[TRILAWNCARE]

Hello all. I have a Flotec Shallow WEll pump along with the pre-charge tank. On the outlet side of the pump I have a T with a hose valve to make priming easier if needed. What is happening lately once the pre-charge tank empties out, the pump is having a hard time sucking in water after I let it sit for a day or so. What happens after the day passes and the tank empties is that you hear the pump trying to suck water but with no success. I have to go to the hose valve, open it a bit to release the air in there and then it will be able to suck water. I have redone the complete piping from the check valve to the inlet, I have rethread the outlet side and still same problem. When this occurs, I have removed the primp screw on the inlet side and there is water in there. I have also unscrewed the universal fitting I have and there is also water in there. What can be causing this air capture or causing for me to open the hose valve to release the air? Could it be the pump that has lost strength through the years (around 5-6 years old) that is causing this air as it tries to suck up water? Any info or help appreciated. Thanks


Buy Gould, problem solved. Pump that is.

[hgiljr]

Right now I am mainly trying to find a fix to the solution since the funds after Christmas are not available for a new pump.

[Wet_Boots]

Why do you let the tank empty out? How much lift on the suction side?

[hoskm01]

Right now I am mainly trying to find a fix to the solution since the funds after Christmas are not available for a new pump.
Clean out the pump? No obstructions. I had one this last year with crustacean obstruction.

http://www.gifmania.sg/Disney/Little-Mermaid/sebastian.gif

Air on the intake side, as Fimco said is typically the issue.

[TRILAWNCARE]

Air on the intake side, as Fimco said is typically the issue.

Who said what???? No fighting now.

[hoskm01]

Who said what???? No fighting now.
Sorry, that was Boots. My bad Boots. Confusion with nother thread.

[Waterit]

Why do you have the tank? Do you also have a pressure switch? If not, get rid of tank. If so, STILL get rid of tank and go straight pump-start.

[TRILAWNCARE]

Had a foot valve once that the nut came unscrewed and let the flapper go up against the top of the valve blocking the water from entering the pump. When the pump was off, the flapper would fall back down and seat holding water. Acted just like a air leak in the suction side.

But OP said the inlet side was re plumbed. Should have caught that then, so might not be the problem..

[hgiljr]

Actually this came with the house and I only use it to have water on demand for the hoses. I have a separate pump for my sprinkler heads. This is why I mainly kept this setup since it was present at time of purchase. I am using only one well with a T to splitting both pumps (do not run them both at the same time). The larger pump for the sprinkler head takes about 30 seconds or so to suck up the water and distribute to the zone. I do have a pressure switch on the pump. I do not let the tank empty out, mainly the water is used and the pump kicks in but due to the air it will not suck up the water. WETboots what do you mean by lift? Height between the check valve and pump? If so about 3 feet since the pump sits on top of the tank.

[Wet_Boots]

Lift is the difference in elevation between the pump inlet and the water table from which it draws. Any friction losses in the suction line is also factored in. Some pumps lift better than others.

A functioning switch would keep the pressure tank filled. If you draw more water than the pump is delivering, you will have problems.

[hgiljr]

I believe the switch is fine since once the pump is working fine with no air, it maintains the tank filled with now pressure lost at the hose end. It empties out once the pump delays trying to suck up water.

[Wet_Boots]

There should be no delays, period. Something is flawed about your setup, and the suction side is the likely culprit.

[hgiljr]

So if being the suction side of the setup, do you recommend me redoing everything from the check valve to the well since the part of the check valve to the pump has already been done?

[TRILAWNCARE]

Actually this came with the house and I only use it to have water on demand for the hoses. I have a separate pump for my sprinkler heads. This is why I mainly kept this setup since it was present at time of purchase. I am using only one well with a T to splitting both pumps (do not run them both at the same time). The larger pump for the sprinkler head takes about 30 seconds or so to suck up the water and distribute to the zone. I do have a pressure switch on the pump. I do not let the tank empty out, mainly the water is used and the pump kicks in but due to the air it will not suck up the water. WETboots what do you mean by lift? Height between the check valve and pump? If so about 3 feet since the pump sits on top of the tank.

I believe the switch is fine since once the pump is working fine with no air, it maintains the tank filled with now pressure lost at the hose end. It empties out once the pump delays trying to suck up water.



Getting better all the time..

Lets call the pump for the sprinklers pump 1

Pump for hoses pump 2

Where is the "T" splitting both pumps. Before the pumps on the suction side or after the pumps on pressure side?

Where is the pressure tank and switch on pump 1 or 2 or both?

Are the the hoses on the mainline (same pipe) for the sprinklers? Or does pump 2 have its own line to the hoses.


If it is taking 30 sec. to get water at the sprinklers with pump 1 you have a problem there as well.

[Wet_Boots]

Why not have an individual suction line for each pump? Why complicate things?

[hgiljr]

Here are your answers:
1. The T is before the pumps on the suction side right where the well pipe exposes itself from the ground and each pump has their own check valve.
2. The pressure tank and switch is on pump 2. Pump 1 has no pressure switch or tank.
3. The hoses have their own line coming out of the pump 2 from the pre charged tank.

Now if I was to have a problem lets say at the T, what is the easiest way to detect beside looking for a leak?
Thanks again

Hector

[hgiljr]

Wet Boots was not trying to complicate things at the time. Just tried to use the well that was already present and make a more powerful one for the sprinkler heads... Thanks

[Waterit]

Coupla suggestions:
Cut into well piping under the T, add brass check valve, replace everything from that point up to pumps, including check valves on each pump. Make sure to use pipe dope NOT TAPE on the threaded connections.

[Wet_Boots]

It's all a fuster cluck. Two pumps on one suction line is a problem waiting to happen. Change the setup.

[TRILAWNCARE]

Does the well have a foot valve? That would be a check valve at the end of the suction pipe down in the well. It will hold water to the pumps. Easist way to check this would be take pipe apart between well and check valve and pour water down it to see if it fills up. If it fills up and slowly drains you have a leak.

My foot valve problem I mentioned earlier would hold water, but blocked the flow after pump started. But it sounds like once you get the system primed and running it runs until the next time it cycles. Then the system looses prime again.

Then its down to pulling up the pipe. If you get what I mean.

[TRILAWNCARE]

It's all a fuster cluck. Two pumps on one suction line is a problem waiting to happen. Change the setup.

Agree there. Can suck air back from other pump, vise versa.

[Waterit]

It's all a fuster cluck. Two pumps on one suction line is a problem waiting to happen. Change the setup.

Agreed. Either put tank, pressure switch, and extra hose bibbs on pump for sprinkler system and do away with other pump or get another well.

OR get rid of tank/pump/hose bibb setup and turn sprinklers on when you want to use hose.

BTW Tri - if check valves are working properly, and of decent quality, it shouldn't suck air from one to the other...

[TRILAWNCARE]

BTW Tri - if check valves are working properly, and of decent quality, it shouldn't suck air from one to the other...

True, get a little piece of **** in it and fluuee..... Back to scratching head...:dizzy:

Just not a good thing putting two pumps on one suction. To many things to go wrong. Like boots said. Problem waiting to happen.

[Mike Leary]

Just not a good thing putting two pumps on one suction. To many things to go wrong. Like boots said. Problem waiting to happen.

If there was a Santa, I'd go this route.

[TRILAWNCARE]

If there was a Santa, I'd go this route.

How many 3 phase pumps you see in a residental application?

[Mike Leary]

How many 3 phase pumps you see in a residental application?

Everyone I've had installed was three-phase.:cool2:

[hgiljr]

Both check valves are brass and there is no foot valve. It is a straight tube from the well to the surface and than the T that lead to two brass check valves.

[TRILAWNCARE]

Both check valves are brass and there is no foot valve. It is a straight tube from the well to the surface and than the T that lead to two brass check valves.

Do you know how deep it is to the water????

[hgiljr]

Around 10 feet or so.

[TRILAWNCARE]

Everyone I've had installed was three-phase.:cool2:


Every one of the VFD you installed was on a 3 phase system?

Or every residential pump you have worked on was a 3 phase pump motor?

If the latter is the case, they must do things different in the PNW.

[ARGOS]

I would like to see pictures of the pumps.

[hgiljr]

I will get pics today and post them and then post the link. Thanks again

[hgiljr]

here is one picture of pump B with the precharged tank. I will take further pics today of the complete setup and post the link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27256330@N08/3147537715/

[TRILAWNCARE]

here is one picture of pump B with the precharged tank. I will take further pics today of the complete setup and post the link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27256330@N08/3147537715/

Looking forward to the pictures. You can up load them directly to the site using the manage attachments button at the bottom of the page.

[hgiljr]

HEre are pictures with the complete setup. You cannot see the T since it is a bit under the grass, but you can see both check valves. Thanks again

[Mike Leary]

Every one of the VFD you installed was on a 3 phase system?

Or every residential pump you have worked on was a 3 phase pump motor?
.

What I meant to say is they are all 230 volt, sorry for the confusion. :hammerhead:

[hoskm01]

What I meant to say is they are all 230 volt, sorry for the confusion. :hammerhead:
Hey, when you hit the Merlot at 0930, exceptions can be made. And im not saying theres anything wrong with that. I just started a Guinness.

[hoskm01]

Hey, when you hit the Merlot at 0930, exceptions can be made. And im not saying theres anything wrong with that. I just started a Guinness.



Mmmmmm, beer.

[Wet_Boots]

Quoting your own posts is the zenith of pikerdom.

[hoskm01]

Quoting your own posts is the zenith of pikerdom.
I was too late to edit, I tried. The QR and Quote buttons are so convenient.

[Waterit]

To get back on thread:dizzy::

1st thing I'd do is cut those unions out of the suction side. No better place for an air leak.

Why do HO's all do that crap with unions, anyway? Not you, hgiljr, I know you "inherited" it.

[hgiljr]

Thanks for getting back on the thread. By Unions you mean the universal fittings or whatever they are called, to unite the two pipes?

[Wet_Boots]

Get rid of the shared suction line. How difficult can that be?

[Waterit]

Thanks for getting back on the thread. By Unions you mean the universal fittings or whatever they are called, to unite the two pipes?

Yes. But the underlying problem still remains - two pumps on one well. Kinda different to see, tho - usually we find one pump on two wells:laugh: