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View Full Version : Anyone modify PermaGreens to spray tea?


Chris Burisek
12-29-2008, 03:24 PM
The folks at PermaGreen say it can't be done... but has anyone tried or have any suggestions? I am trying to sell my chemical fert business and get into all natural/organic applications. Now I am doing both, I have about 550 chemical customers and 300 natural/organic customers. I want to use most of my same equipment but modify it a bit for a higher output.
Any info would be appreciated.

JDUtah
12-29-2008, 03:39 PM
Are you applying CT on your 300 customers lawns already?

mrkosar
12-29-2008, 03:56 PM
The folks at PermaGreen say it can't be done... but has anyone tried or have any suggestions? I am trying to sell my chemical fert business and get into all natural/organic applications. Now I am doing both, I have about 550 chemical customers and 300 natural/organic customers. I want to use most of my same equipment but modify it a bit for a higher output.
Any info would be appreciated.

why did they say you can't? is the CT too thick or something?

NattyLawn
12-29-2008, 04:32 PM
By the time you filter the tea down to fit through a PG, it will just be brown water. Most of the organisms will not make it through the filtering process.

There are just some things you have to pull a hose to apply to get effective application.

ICT Bill
12-29-2008, 06:50 PM
By the time you filter the tea down to fit through a PG, it will just be brown water. Most of the organisms will not make it through the filtering process.

There are just some things you have to pull a hose to apply to get effective application.

MRKOSAR: It is not because of viscosity but the max rate that a PG will spray. Compost tea folks like to see at least 2 gallons per 1000 as an application rate, some as much as 5 gallons per 1000 or more

We have a couple of customers that use PG to apply tea and say they have great results. The highest I have heard is 1.85 gallons per 1000. The PG's typically come from the factory at .3 to .5 gallons per 1000. Most of the mod's I have seen get it up to almost 1 gallon per 1000

one customer also modified, with a lot of mig welding, the tank and replaced it with a 25 gallon tank from the 11 gallon stock tank, this allowed them about 12 to 13,000 sq ft between refills. they carry it on a truck that has a recycling tank of tea on it, they also carry our product. When they don't have their tea made or run out in the field they use ours so they can finish up the day. It looks like a stretch limo, OH I mean Perma green, same idea though they cut it in half (kind of) and added on to make room for the tank.

Call PG and ask for a compost tea modification, I have sent dozens of folks to them they should be getting the idea pretty soon

Grandview
12-29-2008, 07:03 PM
The pump is the problem. It is a 2 gal/minute pump at the most. That is not enough capacity for agitation and putting out 2 gal/1000.

wallzwallz
12-29-2008, 07:30 PM
I do not use a PG, I have a tank w/ a boom, and here's what I did to spray tea.
You need a bigger pump and bigger spray tips. The biggest 12 volt pump I found was here: http://www.schabenindustries.com/Images/MainBody/catalog/12voltpumps.pdf almost all the way down the page, shurflo power twin 7gpm. It draws a lot on the battery, I use a seperate battery for it. The PG has boomless nozzles? I have the regular boom heads, and the tips are interchangable for more gals/K. You need to be putting down 2gals/K minimum. Heres a link to TeeJet http://www.teejet.com/english/home.aspx look under there products for your spray tips and they have charts with gallon out puts.Good luck.

RigglePLC
12-29-2008, 07:36 PM
Two solutions: drive the Permagreen slower--thereby applying more compost tea per 1000 sqft. Half speed--you get double the output.
Or...get a bigger pump (of course you would want to replace all the hoses with bigger tubing to allow full flow--go to 3/8ths inside diameter. ) Plus use bigger nozzles or same nozzles just use two (or three). Put an extra tank in the hopper. Open the rate gate to full open and pass the hose through the bottom of the hopper.

Third suggestion: invent a way to remove the water from CT, so as dry product--you could use it in a spreader.

ICT Bill
12-29-2008, 08:46 PM
Third suggestion: invent a way to remove the water from CT, so as dry product--you could use it in a spreader.
Great suggestion

as a dry powder (spray dried) it will just kind of fly all over the place and usually not where you want it. been there done that, got the shirt, wore it out. it adds too much cost to have it pelletized, most pelletizers use high heat so it basically smokes the good guys, dead pellets.

we are coming out with a dry powder formulation with high densities of beneficials but for a different application

NattyLawn
12-29-2008, 09:51 PM
MRKOSAR: It is not because of viscosity but the max rate that a PG will spray. Compost tea folks like to see at least 2 gallons per 1000 as an application rate, some as much as 5 gallons per 1000 or more

We have a couple of customers that use PG to apply tea and say they have great results. The highest I have heard is 1.85 gallons per 1000. The PG's typically come from the factory at .3 to .5 gallons per 1000. Most of the mod's I have seen get it up to almost 1 gallon per 1000

one customer also modified, with a lot of mig welding, the tank and replaced it with a 25 gallon tank from the 11 gallon stock tank, this allowed them about 12 to 13,000 sq ft between refills. they carry it on a truck that has a recycling tank of tea on it, they also carry our product. When they don't have their tea made or run out in the field they use ours so they can finish up the day. It looks like a stretch limo, OH I mean Perma green, same idea though they cut it in half (kind of) and added on to make room for the tank.

Call PG and ask for a compost tea modification, I have sent dozens of folks to them they should be getting the idea pretty soon

Interesting....I'd like to look at the tea through the scope before and after it comes out of the PG. What does the rest of the program look like? Are they organic? Bridge? Synthetic? 2 gallons per minute isn't much, and no one has touched the biology getting strained out part I mentioned above.

The time it takes to apply the tea and refill, I could have pulled hose and been done. That's applying at 4 gallons per minute with doing a little more work. And Bill, while I respect your product, it's not compost tea. A lot of guys that are possible product buyers from you use the PG's a lot, so you have some vested interest in saying it works. It might be best to get some info from these guys.

NattyLawn
12-29-2008, 09:56 PM
Two solutions: drive the Permagreen slower--thereby applying more compost tea per 1000 sqft. Half speed--you get double the output.
Or...get a bigger pump (of course you would want to replace all the hoses with bigger tubing to allow full flow--go to 3/8ths inside diameter. ) Plus use bigger nozzles or same nozzles just use two (or three). Put an extra tank in the hopper. Open the rate gate to full open and pass the hose through the bottom of the hopper.

Third suggestion: invent a way to remove the water from CT, so as dry product--you could use it in a spreader.

There's a product like that now, but it's pretty expensive. They were called Bio-Granules, but the companies founders keep fighting. I'll try and get a web page tomorrow.

ICT Bill
12-29-2008, 11:22 PM
Interesting....I'd like to look at the tea through the scope before and after it comes out of the PG. What does the rest of the program look like? Are they organic? Bridge? Synthetic? 2 gallons per minute isn't much, and no one has touched the biology getting strained out part I mentioned above.

The time it takes to apply the tea and refill, I could have pulled hose and been done. That's applying at 4 gallons per minute with doing a little more work. And Bill, while I respect your product, it's not compost tea. A lot of guys that are possible product buyers from you use the PG's a lot, so you have some vested interest in saying it works. It might be best to get some info from these guys.

It is actually (a Tea), and we can tell you exactly what you are putting down on sites. It is meant for transition sites and transition companies, you have been through the learning curve, others have not. The product fills a niche that allows companies to expand their business model and have good to great results.

Like it or not, if you have 2000 to 8000 customers it is impossible to brew teas and be productive and profitable. period

I am not saying that brewing or extracting is not a great product, in fact I encourage it. Large customer base, it is impossible to BREW teas

Prolawnservice
12-30-2008, 08:54 AM
Like it or not, if you have 2000 to 8000 customers it is impossible to brew teas and be productive and profitable. period

I am not saying that brewing or extracting is not a great product, in fact I encourage it. Large customer base, it is impossible to BREW teas

I was going to say what about Todd Harrington but then I realised you emphasized Brew, and he uses mostly extract, but does have that number of clients.

NattyLawn
12-30-2008, 09:02 AM
I was going to say what about Todd Harrington but then I realised you emphasized Brew, and he uses mostly extract, but does have that number of clients.

Bill never really answers questions, he justifies his products and who he's trying to sell them to. I wasn't bashing his product. His product may be a tea, but not an AACT. It's not impossible to brew teas, but if people want to use PG's, I think we both know it's not going to work. Brewing and extracting were mentioned by Bill. You can make 500-1000 gallons of extract per hour with basic equipment. How is that not feasible?

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-30-2008, 09:25 AM
honestly, NCT and AACT is all about the "ACTIVE" biology,as well as the"BROAD" diversity of dormant spores and metabolites/nutrients you are putting down.

a product that contains "few" dormant spores with questionable viability and does not come from COMPOST should not be called CT in any regard.

to say a company can not brew or extract a CT with thousands of costumers is bull!

that angle might work if "your" the company selling the few bottled spores, but the truth
remains, it can be done, to say it can't is nothing more then a excuse and a sales ploy.


are we just supposed to take your word for these results when time again you have proven to be full of it? we are still waiting for third party testing reports from anybody at this point,

treegal1
12-30-2008, 10:55 AM
I dont want to get started again , but I have gone over the numbers and said this before, 3000 customers at 1/4 acre, thats 750 acres at 40 $ per acre with bills tea, how can you afford not to brew your own tea..............

dang for 30,000 $ you can put together a really nice brewer,

that will brew 5000 gallons of tea at a time, and get some one to make the tea for you naked.

8 months of tea for 240,000$$$$ OMG

yep I got started.........

treegal1
12-30-2008, 11:02 AM
and unless you are going to change pumps and tanks and all on the PG it is maybe better to drag a hose...... how do you spray trees and shrubs with a PG????

use it to drag the hose.JK LOLOL

ICT Bill
12-30-2008, 11:08 AM
to say a company can not brew or extract a CT with thousands of costumers is bull!
Name one company, it certainly isn't yours

that angle might work if "your" the company selling the few bottled spores, but the truth
remains, it can be done, to say it can't is nothing more then a excuse and a sales ploy.
You ask for information and we comply, you know what they say about opinions, everyone has one.
We stand by our product line, it is a great alternative to brewing and extracting with great to excellent results. The profile of our prduct is much like extraction, dormant and spore form beneficials

We keep coming to the same place, you have never tried our product line and have no experience to compare it to, period. you keep saying "it doesn't do this and it isn't that" with no experience how can you possibly be critical

we are still waiting for third party testing reports from anybody at this point,
what type of testing would you like SFI ? SFI testing shows that at our recommended dilution ratio our product is much stronger than most "brewed" teas at full strength not diluted. does your compost tea have 12 endo and 4 different ecto species in it? does it have Azotobacter, a free ranging nitrogen fixer. are you applying at roughly 1,000,000 microbes per sq ft

Please tell me which microorganisms are in your tea product, you can't. You say they are good, prove it. We can

treegal1
12-30-2008, 11:43 AM
We keep coming to the same place, you have never tried our product line and have no experience to compare it to, period. you keep saying "it doesn't do this and it isn't that" with no experience how can you possibly be critical

sorry just cant afford to do it. I have never said it does not work my only thing is $ to the gallon..........

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-30-2008, 12:15 PM
Name one company, it certainly isn't yours

no, i don't have that many costumers yet, you know i just started this year, but how ever many i do get, i will put the things/methods in place to deliver it, and ill say too that most of the company's out there are under 500 clients

You ask for information and we comply, you know what they say about opinions, everyone has one.
We stand by our product line, it is a great alternative to brewing and extracting with great to excellent results. The profile of our prduct is much like extraction, dormant and spore form beneficials

you NEVER NEVER NEVER comply, you never answer anybodies questions, you always divert some how the attention else where, i know YOU stand by your product, it's your income at stake, much like and extraction you say, then why do you call it compost tea when it's not made from it? with both know? to sell units.....great results you say?? ive only heard the opposite from people who have fallen for your sells pitch,

We keep coming to the same place, you have never tried our product line and have no experience to compare it to, period. you keep saying "it doesn't do this and it isn't that" with no experience how can you possibly be critical

it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what your product's value is? maybe for some, but not for me and others who understand? maybe your product is good for killing things in sick soils? but thats about it maybe? but i doubt it would even help there? the truth is your a sales man, you bottle a few known patented bacterial spores that have usefulness as assassins for disease and sell them as they can do every thing, we both know your about filling niche markets? to pro's who haven't done the research on their own? right? hey if other people who do have a clue want to use your product with their other biology inputs, thats on them, i would say to them how can you tell if there's benefit from adding your product?
there's other cheaper ways to add myco then your product, but again im not sure your product's biology is even viable, surface apply-ed myco? i would think most spores will be parasited or and germinate before they find
a host


what type of testing would you like SFI ? SFI testing shows that at our recommended dilution ratio our product is much stronger than most "brewed" teas at full strength not diluted. does your compost tea have 12 endo and 4 different ecto species in it? does it have Azotobacter, a free ranging nitrogen fixer. are you applying at roughly 1,000,000 microbes per sq ft

that would be a start!!! post it , i know if i was selling a product that would be something i would what to show people unless it said other wise??? my compost tea has myco when i add it, why do you think your saying something by comparing my REAL tea to your product from the fact of having myco? and i would say too that im shore mine has indigenous myco from the local soils i use in my tea's, does YOURS have indigenous myco
for your costumers region? WOW!!!! a million you say, get a grip, your going to compare REAL tea #"s to yours at one million per sf? LOL, no my tea and others who make real tea probably have billions per square inch
Please tell me which microorganisms are in your tea product, you can't. You say they are good, prove it. We can

first off i can't count that high LOL second you are going to say that since your known numbers of assassins is better then a REAL CT cause you know the names of a few,LOL<LOL<LOL you crack me up! you dame well know only a small amount are known and named, im not the one trying to sell product so i don't need to name each of the millions and billions of bugs in my TEA"S, what proves my works is results i get,
do you know what results are???

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-30-2008, 12:21 PM
sorry just cant afford to do it. I have never said it does not work my only thing is $ to the gallon..........

your right tree to a point, should anybody just go on bills words?
where's all this testing he says has been done? he's proven too me he can't be trusted. and the simple fact what his product is and what it isn't.
and yes cost is a joke

Tim Wilson
12-30-2008, 12:31 PM
Please tell me which microorganisms are in your tea product, you can't. You say they are good, prove it. We can

Bill,

As I recall, your product has a limited number of dormant bacillus bacteria species (4 to 6?) with some mycorrhizal spores. Please do correct me if I mis-state.

When I brew an aerated compost tea, I evaluate it to have; multiple strains of live motile bacillus bacteria, likely combined with some strains of archaea, likely combined with some PNSBs (if I have brewed with light and quality fish hydrolysate; especially high with a reddish color CT), motile rods and cocci are everywhere (minimum 10,000/20X), multiple strains of flagellates, often combined with several strains of naked amoebae and testate amoebae and usually some ciliates; several strains of live growing degrader type fungal hyphae of a 6 micron minimum diameter but up to 10 and 12 microns.

What strains of degrader fungi (not myc) are in your product? What strains of protozoa or cysts are in your product?

I know of two large brewers operating in the USA. One is on a 4000 acre grain farm. He is using a 4000 gallon brewer and I have done consulting for the farmer, setting him up with microscopy analysis. The other is a 1000 gallon brewer on a 1200 acre hay farm in Texas. I designed this brewer using my 'trade secret' method. They are set up with a microscope for analysis and are brewing ACT (AAACT) every 32 to 36 hours with a full complement of nutrient cycling microbes, including flagellates (7 to 10/20X) which in SFI terms is
32,500/ml/g. They are finishing brews with a DO2 >10 PPM.

Tell me how this could not be applied to 8000 customers with little lawns?

treegal1
12-30-2008, 12:52 PM
yes and to top it off he came and seen my operation that cared for at the time 750 acres, or 300 customes, now with Eve running the south operation and Dominic running vero almost 2000 acres, and at least 1200 customers. so how he says its not possible...................


and that's using some of my BS little 250 gallon tea brewers that are hand laid fiber glass, just wait till I get my molds back and have a chop gun to lay glass with.......

JDUtah
12-30-2008, 01:58 PM
When I brew an aerated compost tea, I evaluate it to have; multiple strains of live motile bacillus bacteria, likely combined with some strains of archaea, likely combined with some PNSBs (if I have brewed with light and quality fish hydrolysate; especially high with a reddish color CT), motile rods and cocci are everywhere (minimum 10,000/20X), multiple strains of flagellates, often combined with several strains of naked amoebae and testate amoebae and usually some ciliates; several strains of live growing degrader type fungal hyphae of a 6 micron minimum diameter but up to 10 and 12 microns.

Not trying to upset here. But seeing as everyone wants Bill to produce this amazing scientific peer reviewed information about his product... why don't we flip a coin? What peer reviewed studies can you guys produce about your products?!?!?!

Tim,
What peer reviewed studies do you have to prove that the majority of the active species you apply (as listed above) stay alive/active after you apply your CT? I ask you how long do they stay active? Under what soil moisture %? SOM? Ph? TDS? Soil temp? What benefit does the variety provide? (Remember, with the standard you guys hold Bill to, I will only accept peer reviewed sources, not field experience)

The point is, you guys call Bill on the carpet saying he can't "scientifically prove" his stuff works while at the same time... YOU CAN'T prove it either! HELLOOOOOO? Do you get the point?

So he is a company pushing his product. SO ARE YOU! At least his product is registered and approved for applications. And before you go thinking I am standing up for Bill know that I have tested the 123 and have chosen not to use it in my program. It's just the silly hypocritical standards that ruffle my feathers. Thinking clearly and as a regulated business (which you guys are) Bill's product is more advanced than yours.

The only one that has a decent argument is Tree... although... if people can use Bill's product in place of fert successfully... their profit margins will go up, not down. How many square feet can one of your AACT applicators handle per day? How many people need to be at the shop preparing enough brew for that applicator to use the next day? These numbers are important when comparing apples to oranges.

This post was not directed to Tim.

treegal1
12-30-2008, 02:32 PM
first up bills ok, we dont always seen eye to eye, but thats the way it is.

next any class 1 or 2 bio solid is approved, be it in aact or just as compost, by hand or otherwise, wet dry upside down or back.

can you see the tea alive on the plant days later, yes!!!

peer reviewed not from my mouth, well maybe once or twice, but not at bill, reproducible tests for ct, thats a good one, we dont really want the same tea every time, kind of like food, different types and lots of different ways!!

JD do you ask the bakery for peer reviews or a test and or chemical break down for you daily bread??? real bakery and they dont even say whats in it?? or store loaf with a quick run down and nut allergy info???

no it goes by taste and results, my favorite is Andalusia bakery real Cuban bread hot and soft!!! i go out of my way for it and have no idea just that it tastes great and I trust the baker!!!!ok

now the south operation does it with 2 250 gallon brewer hand made except the air blowers,

Monday, am, start the water and air, add some vit C tabs and kelp, screen compost and load vans. then its add the casts and brew, load already brewing tea.and let the air keep on blowing, add some water( de clor. already) go spray tea, 10-3.

one man stayes at the shop and does the other things for the next day

Tue, run out the last of the tea, refresh brewer and start it over again, reload vans compost and so on and go, again some one at the shop to do the other things......

wenday no shop help no compost, just tea from the # 1 brewer about 125 gallons same as any other day, add water and let it coast.

Thursday the rest of # 1's brew comes out, same steps with compost and all.

Friday and sat same, save for sat is only 1/2 day, wash and start a new brew for mon, or swap over brews.

the compost is done off site and stored in a ply wood box, 20 yards at a time, 4x8 worm bed, 6x10 brew space and a small office and dry storage. rent 375 month, comes with one light and 4 receptacles.

phones 300$

labor=

lead 1200$week
shop man 475$ week41/2 days off wed.
ride along labor 4 days at 80$= 320$ short days and paid lunch930- 400.

lets say 75 acres a week with with way to much tea, 300 total acres. not to bad really. they dont mow or anything but tea and compost and so far it works really good...

DUSTYCEDAR
12-30-2008, 04:16 PM
see she had a plan and its workin

JDUtah
12-30-2008, 04:44 PM
see she had a plan and its workin

Good... but does that mean the plan people make to use Bill's tea will not work? I do not think so.... I wasn't the one saying a program is unfeasible here.

Tim Wilson
12-30-2008, 06:00 PM
To be really clear. I am not putting down Bill's products. You can find a post on one of these forums where I've defended such microbe specific products. I was just arguing against the point that ACT is not applicable in a large operation and highlighting the differences with ACT.

I believe at least two microbulator owners use Bill's products with satisfaction.

JDUtah
12-30-2008, 06:26 PM
Thank you for clarifying.

Bottom line is... it (whatever 'it' is) can be done, and a diversity of products/practices builds strength... I hope none of us ever get caught saying something isn't possible...

Like with the PG, with the right mods it might be a good CT tool to have.

ICT Bill
12-31-2008, 04:29 PM
If you look at the typical company making their own compost tea with brewers they are typically do it yourselfers, no doubt about it they love to get the pipes and fittings and make their own compost and do trial and error stuff and throw in some worms and have a ball. I love it, it is my back ground growing up in Boulder Co. I worked for green mountain herbs that supplied celestial seasonings many moons ago. Go for it have a ball, I may even help if asked. ACT is a marvelous product once the learning curve and the fear of killing stuff is over.

Now lets look at a company that may be in several states and has 1000's of customers. These are companies that have been around for many years and have certain procedures in place for every task.
Now try to dump a brewer and some compost food stock at the site and transition these folks into an organic program. Good luck

Its not bad or good, it is about the application. what are you trying to get accomplished

Tim Wilson
12-31-2008, 05:09 PM
Now lets look at a company that may be in several states and has 1000's of customers. These are companies that have been around for many years and have certain procedures in place for every task.
Now try to dump a brewer and some compost food stock at the site and transition these folks into an organic program. Good luck

If they cannot handle something sooo simple as this then they have no right to label themselves organic and should not be in business anyway.

Organic a go go
12-31-2008, 05:14 PM
Bill and JD make excellent points. This isn't a zero sum proposition. For all the whining and complaining people do about Bill's product Tree is just about the only person who has a viable alternative on any kind of viable scale and while that's great its not going to be easily replicated in every circumstance.
ICT was great for me this year but would I love for my own brew to be a feasible option as well? Yep I would, and that's no knock on anyone. Don't be so dogmatic folks.

Tim Wilson
12-31-2008, 05:33 PM
Bill and JD make excellent points. This isn't a zero sum proposition. For all the whining and complaining people do about Bill's product Tree is just about the only person who has a viable alternative on any kind of viable scale and while that's great its not going to be easily replicated in every circumstance.
ICT was great for me this year but would I love for my own brew to be a feasible option as well? Yep I would, and that's no knock on anyone. Don't be so dogmatic folks.

Who is being dogmatic? And Treegal is the only person with a viable alternative??? She is doing great but she certainly is not the only one succeeding with ACT as a tool in a natural program; Barefoot James; Dave Tally, Charlie, Matt at Organic Approach to name a few who I know off the top of my head. Two of these folks also use Bill's stuff (I think). I built my first 1200 gallon brewer for under $1000 and was brewing good microbially diverse ACT within 2 weeks, microscopically verified. I also use some specific microbes occasionally in tandemn with ACT and compost but I ferment EM to accomplish this or grow lacto bacillus. There is no dogma only questions and discussion. Some true enough are frustrated by unanswered questions and sales pitches but that is not dogmatic.

I'm glad that Bill's product worked well for you and that you wish to open to more possibilities.

growingdeeprootsorganicly
12-31-2008, 08:47 PM
Bill and JD make excellent points.:hammerhead: JMO

:dizzy: happy new year!! :dizzy:

but would I love for my own brew to be a feasible option as well? Yep I would, and that's no knock on anyone.

THEN MAKE IT HAPPEN! "tree's the best" but not the only one working
to make a GOOD product. suck it up and getter done, ask questions to others doing it if you don't know how?

I hope i'm not being dogmatic about?

:cool2: HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!:cool2:

Pristine1
02-04-2009, 11:00 AM
Wow, even when you all are arguing, I am able to glean some viable info! Great stuff....now on to figure out how to make worm composting and tea brewing a workable model! Gotta keep reading!!!!

ICT Bill
02-08-2009, 12:49 PM
Wow, even when you all are arguing, I am able to glean some viable info! Great stuff....now on to figure out how to make worm composting and tea brewing a workable model! Gotta keep reading!!!!

We aren't aurguing this is normal banter for the forum :)

DUSTYCEDAR
02-08-2009, 01:28 PM
We r like a big irish family and i have the red hair to prove it.

Barefoot James
02-08-2009, 02:59 PM
I think most of the folks here are really missing the point.

Here is the point -

Those with input on this thread (for the most part) know how to make tea.
Tim Wilson - knows how to make tea. Tim has shared some new video showing old casts and biology vs. new casts biology - night and day! New casts have unbelievable life vs. old dried out casts.

Tree knows tea - uses casts that are hours old.

My point is the folks that use a scope and fresh casts probably make great tea. So 50 to 100 folks make great tea - even 1000. Who knows but how many synthetic companies are killing our soil. What is the potential for tea? What are we trying to accomplish with this site or thread. Bottom line is Bill has a "known" make up with proven results. I would imagine most folks have marginal results with their tea at best - I'm not speaking of the experts responding to this thread - but the masses. Most are too scared to even try it (making tea). Why not encourage and build up their entry into this light by helping ICT – they can follow simple mixing directions. Who cares the cost? Especially for newbys.

Is it worth more red tide in the gulf tree?? What are you out doing, besides commenting on this site, doing some classes, helping third world countries grow food, answering PM’s, giving out great advice to those of us that bother you on the phone cause we have got your private cell phone numbers, and, and, and…. Well forget you? LOL (bad – I mean good example) – but Bill is doing it different and both ways mean it is good for the organic industry and for the future) You are doing a ton, but so is Bill cause he has a method/solution/and product, means to reach the masses to change things? Granted we love you to death but give Bill a break! He is doing it – too – just a different way through means of DISTRIBUTION and brick and mortar locations that are in place! I would think at some point his products may end up in the worldwide retail chains and this means MILLIONS of folks exposed to something that does not harm water tables - and goodness. This means real change - quickly!

Good post JD - flip it to the other side. I love all of us - that "Just assume because we are doing the brewing we have great stuff". I have never had my tea tested, who knows if it is great, good or not so great. I have seen some results but I also use Bills stuff - so maybe my stuff sucks - doubt it cause I see the life under a scope (at 24 hours, 36 and 48) - but I also started getting results with JUST ICT before I got a brewer from Tim. Personally I don't know of any of you with exception to Tim and Tree that actually can do tests on their own stuff – besides just looking at it under a scope like me! So who are you to be critical of what Bill is doing. He has tests I have seen the results on paper and on the properties I take care of.

Bill does lots for this site - with sponsorships and his own input to help promote our agenda and learning. This (CT) is a better way so give the guy a break and embrace it for all these newbys that don't know squat about squat. Are we or this site really going to impact the masses to learn how to make quality CT – NO – NO – NO we are not the only way for some CT maker – may as well be Bill to have the money to use to promote it (advertising – sorry t does work). Our educational system of – starting with a 5 gallon pail from Wal-Mart and…. Is just not going to reach the masses – forget it – end of discussion.

Start with ICT and learn from there. I have and it (USE IT) and it works for me. Don’t mean to blow my own horn but I have more organic only properties than 95% of you and I have picked up 50% more clients for 2009. Why??? Referrals - We are doing something right (CT works). Also keep in mind 25% to 40% of my apps are with ICT.

Bill please send $5 to …. LOL – seriously think about the big picture and how can you push CT on a global scale – give Bill a break dudes – like 10 of you (that know how to make tea and are better than me) and… yadda, yadda, yadda, just need to see that your reversing the momentum we have built up by bashing – so Bills stuff does not work for you so move on. Look at the pesticide numbers (of threads) and look at ours – THAT IS OUR OPPORTUNITY! THAT IS THE REAL POINT.

phasthound
02-08-2009, 03:22 PM
THAT IS OUR OPPORTUNITY! THAT IS THE REAL POINT.[/B]

Well said James. :clapping::clapping:

I can't tell you how many people have told me that lawnsite is a waste of time because there is so much bickering between a few people.

Pristine1
02-08-2009, 03:52 PM
I have to agree with Barefoot and Phasthound. The bad rap that all of "us" tree huggers have is pretty much our own doing. We are adamant that its our way or the highway, and I can tell you that if I took that approach with any of my clients, they would laugh in my face....actually they wouldn't, they just wouldn't have me back to do more work.

As I've said before, I believe that it is more important to get the chems etc out of our system, but if we are going to convince joe blow office guy that its better, we can't approach him in a "holier than though" way.

Think about the lives they lead....they get up, drag themselves to a cubicle, go to lunch, and then head home. They have heard things on the news etc about organics in food and in the environment, but they have been conditioned by years of strong marketing practices to think that their perfectly green little patch of grass is the American dream. Ya know what, it is! Now we have to applaud and support anybody that is offering an alternative to "Chem Lawn" et. al., and take more of a teacher's attitude, than one of confrontation. I know that I could outsell anybody that walked onto a property with that attitude....even though I have little organic lawn care experience. Its all about my approach and the relationship that I create. (No offense to anybody, I just feel that I know my customers).

So lets continue to work together, share our thoughts and ideas, and improve our environment one property at a time.

(Stepping down off soap box) Now I will go and ask more questions in another thread!

treegal1
02-08-2009, 05:15 PM
my only thing is in my market its not going to work for me, other markets maybe.... not for me to find out..............

phasthound
02-08-2009, 05:36 PM
my only thing is in my market its not going to work for me, other markets maybe.... not for me to find out..............

Well, that's fine. There are many differences in markets throughout the country. Remember, diversity rules. :waving:

Tree, what you have accomplished is awesome. You & your hubby have been able to cut your costs by recycling wastes and still provide great results for your clients while reducing the environmental impact. You provide a model many can learn from.

The thing is when people take a confrontational approach, their message is only understood by those who believe it in the first place. Those who don't agree, feel threatened and attacked, so they fight back. The (sh*t, I hate to use this term) Silent Majority listen to the fighting for a bit, but rapidly grow tired of the nonsense & tune it out. We end up with a society that is polarized and alienated. Nothing is accomplished.

treegal1
02-08-2009, 05:43 PM
while i don't want my message lost, I would rather be feared for what i am then loved for what i am not........

phasthound
02-08-2009, 05:47 PM
while i don't want my message lost, I would rather be feared for what i am then loved for what i am not........

I think what I'm saying is that your message is important and it can be presented in a different way that allows more people to understand it.

treegal1
02-08-2009, 06:04 PM
how so, I post the pic's, I take the calls, PMs, do what I can when I can. my message is simple I am a tea girl 100% real home brewed AACT. I dont say bills is bad, I think I have said its the best "JAR TEA" just on the #s on the label, he and epomia must be trying to get each other.LOLOL

the only time he has got my Irish up is with the "it cant be done on a large scale" thing. we still friends but on that one thing thats the boiling point, after that even bill has said its just a side road to the freeway of happiness. the cost per acre thing for most start-ups does not matter just get that client base up and yes get some ICT and go for it, work it into the bridge and yes some "bridge" N is needed. I say this and most 1st 2nd or 3rd year lawns will need some " lawn crack" to get through these times, unless they are really committed and have the top shelf compost to get it done. its a hard road to go, long hours big labor and fuel use, and has limitations to how your arrangements can be set up and the space it takes.

and as far as diversity I got some one thats going to be calling soon just to add some different herd to his mix........

Pristine1
02-08-2009, 06:30 PM
Tree-I agree that you have to stand for what you believe in, but I also think that it makes sense to out smart your opponent. There are so many people out there that just don't think the organic way has any merit or will produce the results that they demand. For me, the small amount of organic work that I have done has been through an educational path. By that I mean I had to first overcome the objections as to "why do you need to take that extra step of tilling and composting those beds before you plant them, its an extra $1000?"

Once I gently educated them, and then brought them to other jobs that were less than a year old and the plants looked mature (herbacious plants), they realized that their 5 year old peonies were struggling in comparison.

I personally like your direct approach, but I am already on board, and was when I started posting here a week ago. For those that may just be browsing, and checking into the organic world, the tough guy(gal) approach would definitely be a turnoff.

So, don't change who you are or what you stand for....PLEASE. I know that I will benefit immensely from your knowledge, but maybe we all could come up with a way to get more people on board....a little organic evangelism if you will. As long as we show a unified front, with healthy respectful discussion.

treegal1
02-08-2009, 06:33 PM
yeah, I try and say it is indeed regretful, instead of aw Sh*t

treegal1
02-08-2009, 06:39 PM
back on topic, PG, maybe one day, something custom. but for now, other than to drag a hose, how about a water can on wheels, say 40 gallons and a drip system. I say this because I saw a old water barrel for planting in a news clip for my tractor.........old new ways ??

Prolawnservice
02-08-2009, 06:47 PM
How bout these, here is a pic of treegal test driving mine
http://www.wheelspray.com/#a4

Prolawnservice
02-08-2009, 06:48 PM
jk................................... lol

treegal1
02-08-2009, 06:49 PM
wow that's too cool, is it light weight when empty???

Prolawnservice
02-08-2009, 06:51 PM
yup, you could pick it up and put it in the van by yourself

JDUtah
02-08-2009, 06:52 PM
I owned/used one of those. Clogged pretty easy. I doubt it would handle a tea...

Then again I bet it would spray bills.. but you only get 1 gal per K... turn the nozzles in to get 2 gal per k.

Prolawnservice
02-08-2009, 06:54 PM
take the screens out, we use it all the time go over the prop twice once side to side and once perpendicular to the first pass 2 gal per 1000

treegal1
02-08-2009, 06:54 PM
screens are for sissys.jk EVEN THE C 200 HAS TO RUN BARE WITH CASTS IN THE PUMP

Prolawnservice
02-08-2009, 07:00 PM
screens are for sissys.jk

seriously what the hell are they for anyway, I take them out of everything.

JDUtah
02-08-2009, 07:05 PM
Never tried that

treegal1
02-08-2009, 07:16 PM
seriously what the hell are they for anyway, I take them out of everything.I have no idea, I think I burned up the diaphragms in my sprayer with the OVER sized screens still pulling vacuum..... good buy screen and the tea looks a lot better out of the gun.............. no scope in the field stuff just a sample one day and again the next, less shred....

ICT Bill
02-08-2009, 09:51 PM
the only time he has got my Irish up is with the "it cant be done on a large scale" thing. we still friends but on that one thing thats the boiling point, after that even bill has said its just a side road to the freeway of happiness.

I must have mis-communicated it is a common trait of my ancestors passed and present.
Here is an example: I got asked to come to a company in the mid west that has a little over 100 franchises in 24 states, the one I was visiting had 8000 customers, I did not mistype "eight thousand" from one office alone, this did not count the other 99 or so offices.
These franchises have been and are run in a certain way, the home office had "played" with AACT and extracting for 2 years and had given up, they could not figure out how to coordinate it. It was something they were trying to bring into an existing framework and it caused too much heartburn

I believe if they had started with AACT or extracting like several I know have and ran the business from that start it would be completely different

Companies that brew teas are not our customers, companies that want to brew teas or expand into organic lawn/landscape care are. that is our business model to transition companies into less inputs of fertilizers and pesticides and to move to a more sustainable model. There are currently few to none, off the shelf product lines like ours to do that

Our goal is: if we can reduce fertilizer and pesticide inputs by 50 to 75% nationally (hell, regionally), we have accomplished something. Then we can teach them how to get the rest out of their program

Kiril
02-08-2009, 09:55 PM
Compost does a soil good!

treegal1
02-08-2009, 10:08 PM
I must have mis-communicated it is a common trait of my ancestors passed and present.
Here is an example: I got asked to come to a company in the mid west that has a little over 100 franchises in 24 states, the one I was visiting had 8000 customers, I did not mistype "eight thousand" from one office alone, this did not count the other 99 or so offices.
These franchises have been and are run in a certain way, the home office had "played" with AACT and extracting for 2 years and had given up, they could not figure out how to coordinate it. It was something they were trying to bring into an existing framework and it caused too much heartburn

I believe if they had started with AACT or extracting like several I know have and ran the business from that start it would be completely different

Companies that brew teas are not our customers, companies that want to brew teas or expand into organic lawn/landscape care are. that is our business model to transition companies into less inputs of fertilizers and pesticides and to move to a more sustainable model. There are currently few to none, off the shelf product lines like ours to do that

Our goal is: if we can reduce fertilizer and pesticide inputs by 50 to 75% nationally (hell, regionally), we have accomplished something. Then we can teach them how to get the rest out of their program

and that is the end goal, less fossil based fert( thats what it is I just made a term) fossil based fert, thats a good one.

any who, I will give you that an existing company like that would be a hard nut to crack, lots of growing pains. but it can and could be done even on that scale, base of 8K lawns Thad's about 2000 acres of lawn/scape. 20 days a month that's only about 500 gallons of tea per day so they need 5, 500 gallon brewers at k a unit plus the food and all it could be done. easy and no growing pains, not even on the best day. but it could be done. I just did 150 acres of turf farm in one day in high gear and bust-in it but it got done and with great tea........1550 gallons of it at once one brew one brewer!!!!!!!!

treegal1
02-08-2009, 10:18 PM
its still so easy to use your I can see the attraction. its like wine coolers take wine and fruit juice and mix with water(ice) and chill serve, no that's to hard, so bartles and james enters with wine coolers in a bottle and make a killing.

yours is the same way, add 123 and its time to spray, I even wish I had some the other day, not a well or fresh water for miles and the only lakes are salt, and in my head I says, "wish I had some jar tea". just add and serve , go home but , eh live life as you do and all that....

so yeah i can see how a 8000 roll call biz just has to go the middle lane and still be on the road to happiness. 3 totes a pump or 3 and a batch tank that they already use and BAM its out the door... and I am sure that one day they will want some of the tree casts to use so........ or some other way to get the diversity down in the soil, not that its gone or wont grow out with the added tea food.........

phasthound
02-09-2009, 12:10 AM
Compost does a soil good!

Sure does. But realistically, how many LCO's are going to make the switch?

phasthound
02-09-2009, 12:11 AM
and that is the end goal, less fossil based fert( thats what it is I just made a term) fossil based fert, thats a good one.

any who, I will give you that an existing company like that would be a hard nut to crack, lots of growing pains. but it can and could be done even on that scale, base of 8K lawns Thad's about 2000 acres of lawn/scape. 20 days a month that's only about 500 gallons of tea per day so they need 5, 500 gallon brewers at k a unit plus the food and all it could be done. easy and no growing pains, not even on the best day. but it could be done. I just did 150 acres of turf farm in one day in high gear and bust-in it but it got done and with great tea........1550 gallons of it at once one brew one brewer!!!!!!!!

One step at a time.

Kiril
02-09-2009, 12:21 AM
Sure does. But realistically, how many LCO's are going to make the switch?

That is an easy question to answer .... none if they never attempt it.

bicmudpuppy
02-09-2009, 01:01 AM
Sure does. But realistically, how many LCO's are going to make the switch?

Like Kiril said, the ones that don't try, never will. The more important question is how many that don't try will still survive. There are going to be less expensive ways to maintain turf and landscapes for a long time, BUT are they as efficient. Who are you competing with? Someone mentioned an app every month of the growing season. What? so chem lawn does 6 so we will apply 8? but it is 8 organic apps, so the customer gets to feel good? Why not get down to a realistic agronomic stance. How many apps NEED to happen to have great turf? 3? possibly 4? Might have to put down some of that "crack for grass" tree was talking about to make a transition in a new lawn, but the goal is to get them to an organic program. If you SELL the 4 app plan, but your 4 apps are 50% more than the spray and pray guys out there, you still cost the same amount of money /sq'. If your average lawn looks like it should, they will beat down your door. Not because your an "organic" company, but because your not shelling them for 2-3 apps they do not need and your providing a great product.

Barefoot James
02-09-2009, 09:07 AM
Note the Y. I met those guys Frank and Ed - even shot a commercial with them - when they rolled out Eds Red. I sold the stuff for Gallo for about 15 years, built a 3200 case display for Super Bowl in the the shape of a Stadium with a blimp and everything. the bottles on the field were the players with helmets - very cool.

ICT Bill
02-09-2009, 09:30 AM
Folks,
I have been saying I was going to do this for a long time and have not. The company that makes the compost tea ride-on is purely organic lawn care out of York Harbor Maine, (207) 363-1200 I do believe either Kevin or Michelle is there answering phones. Its still cold up there so the staffing is minimal

It has a 25 gallon tank and sprays 1.85 gallons per 1000, a spreader in front and is made for spraying teas. It looks like a PG but different when you get up close, it has a sulky instead a built in foot hold, it puts out a bigger droplet size than others which is great for teas

i have no idea what the cost is you will have to call them

treegal1
02-09-2009, 10:05 AM
call made info taken, lets see what happens, maybe its the silver bullet fot this gig, lots of people dont have the cake for a unit like this and a spreader.........3K$

bicmudpuppy
02-09-2009, 01:55 PM
I've yet to brew my first batch of tea, but I'm going to jump in here a little bit anyway. First, what would you LOSE by putting a large 50 or 100 mesh screen on the line taking the tea from the tank? Put a 4" in/out spray screen on a 2" line and my gut says you could empty a tank w/o cleaning it. You could then clean the screen and go again.

I had a spray wheelie and used it to apply fungicides on golf greens back in '94. I changed the nozzles out to apply 2.5 gallons/m I had the 10 gallon unit and I could spray most of my greens at the time w/ one tank. Most turf fungicides (I know, dirty words down here in the organic forum) like to go down at 2gal/m minimum and would prefer to go down at 5gal/m I didn't try to get up to 5 gal/m. I was filling up and carrying enough water the way it was, BUT it allowed me to survive in an environment that I would have been DOA in w/o fungicides. 2gal/m nozzles are going to be big enough to not want the 50 mesh screens above them. To me this means you should be good to go for tea. Hauling the tea in a 200 gallon tank in the back of a truck and filling the sprayer on site should be a good deal. Getting a blower of some kind to add some extra air to that 200 gallon tank should increase the quality of the tea being applied. (Or, I have missed the concept and need to read EVERYTHING again)

treegal1
02-09-2009, 02:13 PM
see above air in tank with long hose and big holes to pass some compost ........

NattyLawn
02-09-2009, 02:14 PM
I've yet to brew my first batch of tea, but I'm going to jump in here a little bit anyway. First, what would you LOSE by putting a large 50 or 100 mesh screen on the line taking the tea from the tank? Put a 4" in/out spray screen on a 2" line and my gut says you could empty a tank w/o cleaning it. You could then clean the screen and go again.

I had a spray wheelie and used it to apply fungicides on golf greens back in '94. I changed the nozzles out to apply 2.5 gallons/m I had the 10 gallon unit and I could spray most of my greens at the time w/ one tank. Most turf fungicides (I know, dirty words down here in the organic forum) like to go down at 2gal/m minimum and would prefer to go down at 5gal/m I didn't try to get up to 5 gal/m. I was filling up and carrying enough water the way it was, BUT it allowed me to survive in an environment that I would have been DOA in w/o fungicides. 2gal/m nozzles are going to be big enough to not want the 50 mesh screens above them. To me this means you should be good to go for tea. Hauling the tea in a 200 gallon tank in the back of a truck and filling the sprayer on site should be a good deal. Getting a blower of some kind to add some extra air to that 200 gallon tank should increase the quality of the tea being applied. (Or, I have missed the concept and need to read EVERYTHING again)

Theoretically the ideas you mentioned would work. The screen could catch a lot of biology, especially the fungi. Adding the blower could bring more air, but who knows without testing. It seems like you would want to buy a microscope to test the biology and a DO meter for the air to find out.

Mr. Nice
02-09-2009, 02:21 PM
Bic,

Imo there is no real way to know how your sprayer system is going to effect live active biology?

Unless you have a scope and test,

Trusted adviser Tim W. from what I hear will have a affordable scope for sale, setup for tea viewing soon.?

treegal1
02-09-2009, 02:32 PM
Bic,

Imo there is no real way to know how your sprayer system is going to effect live active biology?

Unless you have a scope and test,

Trusted adviser Tim W. from what I hear will have a affordable scope for sale, setup for tea viewing soon.?
I am standing in line for one myself the used stuff i have is ok and the digital is a neat toy but I want a Tim scope.

I wonder if he will do a signature series with his autograph

DUSTYCEDAR
02-09-2009, 02:36 PM
Me tooo timmmmmm help us out

Mr. Nice
02-09-2009, 02:44 PM
I wonder if he will do a signature series with his autograph



One reason I trust Tim is I believe that would not be his style?

Mr. Nice
02-09-2009, 02:46 PM
One reason I trust Tim is I believe that would not be his style?

But I would not want to speek for him on that though...

DUSTYCEDAR
02-09-2009, 02:47 PM
TIM HOW MUCH WILL IT TAKE????:weightlifter:

treegal1
02-09-2009, 02:49 PM
One reason I trust Tim is I believe that would not be his style?I think he's cool enough that he may do one for us. just kidding any ways.

Mr. Nice
02-09-2009, 02:50 PM
I think he's cool enough that he may do one for us. just kidding any ways.



I know. it would be kind of cool though.:)