Where is the Clip forum??

[Twotoros]

There was some truth going on in the clip forum and I posted my two cents since I am a ten year vet of Clip. Did they bail when they found out some of us don't worship them???????

[RB]

I've been using clip for 5 years and this will probably be my last year with clip.

Their support is terrible!

I hope for their sake they don't continue to dismiss all the negative comments they receive on this and other boards.

Ron

[LoneStarLawn]

I think they realized maybe it was a negative impact on their company for the slow or late responses to questions or comments that were posted there.

They have their own forum, so they may have thought it was just too much.

[Twotoros]

I just find it weird. I posted to it today and now it is gone. I did a search and my post no longer exists. Also note they are not listed as a sponser.???????
I guess this is a case of the truth hurts. If they are trying to hide our opinions they are doing a good job.:mad:

[Administrator]

Clip no longer wants to be affiliated with the community.

[cuttingedgelawncare]

why do they not want to be affilliated with us............i have used clip lite for couple of years......realy had no probs with it......i have to upgrade soon and if they dont want to be assosiated with us then i might change my whole program, anyhow why?

[Clip]

The words from the Administrator "Clip no longer wants to be affiliated with the community." couldn't be further from the truth.

Our advertising agreement with LawnSite.com expired in November and we opted not to renew the agreement.

We are investing our time and resources in our own unmoderated forums. All comments are welcome there also.

We welcome all comments. The only way to grow and get better is by listening and responding to our users' compliments and complaints. You may email any and all comments to service@clip.com .

Thanks to all who have posted here in regards to CLIP Software.

CLIP (http://www.clip.com)

CLIP Forum (http://www.clipforum.net/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi)

[Twotoros]

Hmmmm. I see. Well for the time being I will print some labels with my new company info and paste them over the old info on my statements, info that is embedded in my Clip. That will buy me some time to find a replacement program.
What I am wondering is why is Clip is even looking back at Lawnsite if they have bailed on us. I think we have them worried. And instesd of changing some of their restictive company policies they have opted to hide them from the prosective new customer. I believe Clip to be the best but I will not endlessly pay out 150$ a year for support and updates I rarely use. We as Lawnsite members should be proud to voice our opinions of the products we pay for and use. And the companies that look at our posts should learn how to improve their products and services by what we write. Not run away. Lawnsite is a tool. Learn to use it. Goodbye Clip.

[Premo Services]

[ Twotoros] We as Lawnsite members should be proud to voice our opinions of the products we pay for and use. And the companies that look at our posts should learn how to improve their products and services by what we write. Not run away. Lawnsite is a tool. Learn to use it. Goodbye Clip.

EXCELLENT POST Twotoros!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree completely. I have learned a lot from these forums, and the companies should also. For one thing, if someone is not happy with the product or service they will give an honest opinion of it. The companies aren`t giving us money to use their product. So, in MHO the comments from members about products or services are honest. Thats what counts in my books. Getting info from someone that is in the same shoes as I am, spending their HARD EARNED DOLLARS to buy it.:)

[roscioli]

To Clip: What "the administrator" said is right on. You explained it yourself, if you opt not to renew, you opt to not be a part of the community. Am I missing something? Come on.

[Sean Adams]

Forums are very helpful tools in this, and every other industry. I have read every post here and I want to comment very briefly and very simply.

CLIP is an excellent product. I feel safe in saying this, and probably most on this site (THAT HAVE ACTUALLY USED CLIP) would in fact agree. In my opinion, CLIP is superior to other types of service industry software that I have used and/or demoed.

I can also confidently say that the staff at CLIP is a great bunch of people - very professional and genuinely care about the Green Industry, and alll of those within the industry.

I cannot speak for CLIP or anyone who has posted here. However, in this case I assume that CLIP is not "running away", or "hiding" from this site or its members. CLIP has made it clear that they are not renewing their sponsorship. What does that have to do with not caring about clients and potential clients? The administrator stated "They do not want to be affiliated with the community" and CLIP stated "We are not renewing sponsorship" It appears that CLIP feels that people with questins about CLIP and it's products would benefit from the many users discussing things at their forum. If that is what they feel, then it is their choice. However, you have to admit, it makes sense.

No one here likes it when a client is unhappy. But even worse, no one likes it when that angry client spreads the word. I'm sure it has happened to everyone here. More than likely you believe that their complaint was for no reason or without merit. What do you think your clients or potential clients would say about you if they had their own forum and could openly discuss your service?

What it comes down to is this... It is your right and option to voice your opinion about all that concerns the green industry. But I proudly defend CLIP and I know if any one individual here has a problem with CLIP, simply call. I will bet that your problem gets solved... 800-635-8485.

Sean Adams

[Twotoros]

Yes Sean, very good points. I have not tried any other software and agree Clip is #1. And I am more than sure Clip will resolve my problem - for $150.00. That is a fact. And another fact is that they will want $150 in '03,'04,'05 and in 2006 and as long as I am in business. This for many Clip customers is a good deal. For some of us on tight budgets we may not "see the light" as easily.

[Sean Adams]

I understand what you are saying. Everyone has a budget, regardless of how big or small your company may be. I guess that the $150 that covers updates and support becomes a matter of choice, need, or ability to afford. I am always impressed by the perserverance of people in this industry when it comes to finding new and innovative ways to improve their business and save themselves time (and money). Comparing certain types of software can at times be like comparing apples and oranges. Each individual business owner has to decide what they want and expect. CLIP does a lot in and for the industry and I'm glad to see you are benefitting from their software. Again, I never make it my business to speak for others, but I'm sure that if you personally approached CLIP, they would do what they could to help you maximize your use and benefit of their software.

Sean Adams

[CMerLand]

Two Toros,

You have stated several times that CLIP is great or the best but keep stumbling over this Annual service agreement issue. Im a CLIPPro user and have been using CLIP since 1996 so my annual service agreement is $ 200 not the $ 150 Im guessing you pay as a classic user. As luck would have it my invoice for this arrived today, so I can speak very clearly on the topic. And for perspective, I am not some huge company but only have 3 to 5 employees during the year so its not like Im printing my own money here.

As far as the ASA goes it is optional. You dont have to take it if you dont want it and continue to use your current version of CLIP until the day you retire without paying another dollar to Sensible Software. Below is the breakdown of the differences.

45 minutes tech support: free without it $ 225.00
Additional Tech support: $ 2.50 minute without it $ 5.00 min
E-Mail Tech support: Free without $ 25.00 incident
Fax updates via Web: Free without $ 150.00
Updates mailed on Disk: up to four free without $ 200.00 each
Replace program: Free without $ Full Price

Name/Address/phone change (eslawns big issue with clip)
Free via email without $ 50.00
$ 50.00 via disk without $ 100.00
Clip Classes: $ 300.00 without $ 450.00

And my favorite the annual CLIP conference

$575 door price (cheaper yet if u order early) without $ 825.00

The savings on the annual conference alone pays for the value of the annual service agreement. HOWEVER, the HUGE VALUE of the information that you will learn and share over those three days will be far exceed the cost of the conference as you network with some of the best and the brightest in the industry. Many of these people using CLIP are the people you read about in PRO magazine and Lawn and Landscape Magazine, and they'll gladly let you pull up a chair during lunch to listen in on how they grew their companies to the huge successes you read about in those magazines.

Now in reading your signature you state that your in the poorest county of Washington or something to that effect and Im sure you feel the same price pressures there that we all feel here. But you need to not look at the ASA as the "MAN" just trying to milk more money out of your pocket, but as CLIP looking to be your partner in your success.

New features work their way down the CLIP product line with the power users running and testing and most importantly suggesting new improvements to the program. When was the last time you updated your program? If its been a while then Im sure your missing out on new features that may have been added to make CLIP better to help you find the leaks in you company or easier to use in your office.

Finally, (round of applause goes up that hes soon getting of the pulpit)
Sure you can keep running that truck with the clogged fuel injectors, the dirty airfilter, the fouled spark plugs and the leaky gas tank because the mechanic wants $ 200.00 to fix all that stuff. However once fixed, if you only save $ 5.00 a week on your gas bill, everything after week 40 is money back in your pocket. And if you tune up every year, thats $60.00 more dollars in your bank account instead of the gas mans.

The old rule applies, You gotta spend money to make money.

CMerLand

[CMerLand]

Premo,

Couldnt just leave your comment out of this discussion and if I knew how to quote it I would have posted it right here. Im glad that you find the forums informative, but I caution you to take everything you read here with a grain of salt.

Im sure you've heard the addage that a happy customer will tell 1-3 people about their experience with your company, but that an unhappy customer will tell 9 or more.

That holds very true on these forums as many posters look at the forums as the local bar to tell their war horror stories. Misery loves company. For every guy that has posted about his bad experience with a mower/edger/motor/truck there are many other clients that likely have not only not had that problem but think whatever this guy is bitching about is absolutely the only way to go. But its rare that the people who are happy about the product will speak up to defend it as Ive done here with CLIP. Im sure I could get 15-30 people to sign on this forum tomorrow to tell you how great it is compared to the two or three that have posted complaints.


Be that as it may, Two Toros complaint doesnt even fall into that situation. IN his own post he says that CLIP is great and #1. His problem is regarding the annual service agreement which I think my last post pretty thoroughly addressed.

Here's another little business addage that I've adopted over my years in business.

BUY THE WAY YOU SELL!!!

Im sure you get sick and tired of those clients that beat you over the head to lower your price here or to throw that little extra in there. The ones that want the most are usually the ones that want to pay the least, and quickly you find yourself not wanting to work for these people.

By the same token, you love the customer that says, LISTEN just do it and send me a bill and they pay it without question or complaint. Granted we all dont have as many of these as we like but Im sure each of us has a few in our businesses.

Well just like you dont want to get beat up by your clients, your vendors and suppliers dont want to hear the same from you. Im not saying just pay with no questions asked, shop around and compare to see if its in the ballpark. But the goodwill you develop with a vendor who you've stuck with even tho hes a few bucks higher, will be paid back quickly the first time he rushes your emergeny repair into the shop to get you going again.

CMerLand

[lawn and stump]

When I bought Clip in 1992 I had my doubts. I didn't want software that I had to pay a service agreement on.
A friend bought another software program at the same time because of the annual charge. and now he is switching to clip.
I took him to the Clip Conference and he knew he made the right
move. He was overwelmed with the amount of cutting edge ideas he came back with. THe Clip staff is the most caring and the best and they truly want to help, they have expences just like us.
I run my business by something learned at a Clip conf. Back in 1993 "I am doing my customers a major diservice if I can't afford to stay in business" Every one of us has the Mrs.Smith, the widow that we take care of her yard She calls me for advice on everything.

Look at your software as a major tool like a mower

I bought in 92 for $695?
I used it each year all year and put in $100 maintance

my software is much better than when I bought it and it 10 years ago it was updated every year.

the mower that is 10 years old is probaly in the junk pile

[Captain Calamity]

Chris & Phil,

Great replies. One thing I have found out about CLIP via the CLIP forum is that the owner of SSI Dave Tucker participates and answers questions. Also if you have tech problem with all the CLIPper’s on the forum you can post your question there and take your chances (which are very good) that you will get the right answer, or you can call tech support.

Also several manufacturers participate in the forum like Wright Mfg and Toro.

The ASA was a big hurdle for me as well. I came to realize exactly what Phil said,”Look at your software as a major tool like a mower I bought in 92 for $695?
I used it each year all year and put in $100 maintance my software is much better than when I bought it and it 10 years ago it was updated every year. the mower that is 10 years old is probaly in the junk pile”

The folks at CLIP take suggestions from CLIP users on how to improve their product and implement them into their updates. The ASA supports this research and development. These updates are then made available to those who have an Annual Service Agreement by either downloading them from their website, or they will send the update by mail. It’s win/win situation.

Another thing CLIP does is once a year they host the CLIP Conference, which brings in people from all over the world. Last year was my first time at the CLIP Conference and if you’re wanting to learn more about the industry and how to run a more efficient business, not to mention the camaraderie with others in the business.
Some of the speakers there were Jim Paluch. Tony Bass, Vander Kooi, and many others.

There are a lot more benefits to being a CLIP owner. It just depends on what direction you want to take your company whether some or all will apply.

[Premo Services]

Originally posted by CMerLand
Premo,

Couldnt just leave your comment out of this discussion and if I knew how to quote it I would have posted it right here. Im glad that you find the forums informative, but I caution you to take everything you read here with a grain of salt.

Im sure you've heard the addage that a happy customer will tell 1-3 people about their experience with your company, but that an unhappy customer will tell 9 or more. CMerLand

I know what you are saying(about opinions), but my point is that on these forums, you get people in the same business buying products and using them to make a living, not a factory representive at a lawn equiptment show telling you why they have the BEST equiptment in town, or a truck dealer telling you why his are the best and the best prices. I am sure we have all experienced that. This is just a tool to help make decisions, we are not getting paid by the manufactures to advertise their equiptment.
Originally posted by CMerLand By the same token, you love the customer that says, LISTEN just do it and send me a bill and they pay it without question or complaint. Granted we all dont have as many of these as we like but Im sure each of us has a few in our businesses.
All of my customers are like that:D :D

The easiest way to quote someone is to click quote in their post, then edit out all the stuff that you don`t want in the quote.

[Twotoros]

I am sure this thread will be informative to all who have some questions about Clip. Hey are some of you being paid by Clip- just kidding. I am sure all that read this are aware that these are just my opinions.
I have been weighing my options and I feel that paying Clip, yet again, is the easier and cheapest way to go. Whether it is 150 or 200 bucks. GK pro 2000 is 350 and then I have to learn the software and enter the data. So it is no contest - the winner and still champ-Clip.

However my opiion that Clip charges to much for support etc. will never change. How many of you experienced Clip users need tech advise? I don't. And how many upgrades have you recieved? None here, none available for classic. I paid $$$ when I went from 3.1 to win98 two years ago plus the service agrement. They got five bills from me that season.

So this is my final word on the subject : If you are thinking of buying Clip you won't be unhappy.

P.S. I wish those words of support for Clip would get my company info changed for fifty dollars though!:)

[Captain Calamity]

Twotoros said,"I wish those words of support for Clip would get my company info changed for fifty dollars though!"

Give CLIP a call and talk with Jack Williams. I'm not sure but I think you can do the company info change for less than $50.

[Twotoros]

Wrong Captain . I e-mailed Jack and he said it 125$. The price is for renewing my ASA. I was wrong on the price. It is still too much to change 13 letters of text and 7 numbers. So I will pay still yet another time for next to nothing,

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Originally posted by Clip

We are investing our time and resources in our own unmoderated forums.

PROtalk_Moderator@cygnuspub.com (PROtalk Moderator)


Unmoderated by far. All posts are read before they are sent out.

As far as your software.

One thing you should have learned so far is to make the name changable by the user via password proteced.

Maybe you missed that in the many posts by Twotoro's

[Strongmd]

LGF, Protalk may be moderated, but Protalk is not the Clipforum, they are two entirely different forums.

Also, if the customer is able to change their own customer name via a password, what's to keep someone from passing their copy of clip around to all of their friends? I believe that the company name thing is how they protect themselves from software piracy.

[Clip]

1. Matt, thank you. You are absolutely right about the name change issue. That is an intregal part of our copyright protection and protection against software theft and piracy.

2. ProTalk is Pro magazine's forum which we only host. The moderation of it is because THEY want to moderate it. We have 3 other email forums that belong to us, none of which are moderated.

[KirbysLawn]

Well, I guess I'll put my .02¢ worth here also. While I don't use Clip I must say that as a business, they are here to make a profit. I figure that they looked at advertising here (cost) versus the sales that are generated from from that advertising and found it to not be profitable.

If I was paying whatever $$ for an advertising space and it was not working out I would also pull the plug. They have no obligation to be here or advertise here or anywhere else. They are providing a forum for their customers, how many companies do that anyway?

I will say that this thread has received 2 of Clips 8 post, and I think that was the biggest problem, lack of participation.

[Administrator]

"I think that was the biggest problem, lack of participation"

BINGO!!!!!

How can you expect a campaign to work to its fullest extent if you don't interact with a INTERACTIVE community?

(also, I believe CLIP's yearly price for sponsorship was less than a single copy of their PRO version software..... numerous people have mentioned purchasing clip directly from comment related threads, I received more than a dozen emails from companies asking me why they can't find how to purchase CLIP directly from LawnSite.com, (thinking I sold the software), Yes, I directed them to CLIP via website URL and their phone number... so, price vs sales must not be the issue)

Notice, the sponsors who take the time to interact get results. Banners and logos will only take you so far.....

Here is a copy and paste from my sponsor page...

"Statistically, banner advertising is the poorest means of Internet advertising! When you dedicate your company to LawnSite.com sponsorship our goal is to create a "relationship" between your company/product and the LawnSite.com Community. Introduction, education, awareness,& trust are just a few words that describe your sponsorship campaign. Banner ads, logos, & images are used to keep your company name brand fresh in peoples minds. To take full advantage of LawnSite.com you need to interact, participate, & show you care."

[KirbysLawn]

I agree. Lawn Monkey (which I bought as a result of this forum) has been on the spot. Usually when I ask a question it's answered in less than 24 hours, unheard of support!

[LoneStarLawn]

Originally posted by KirbysLawn
I agree. Lawn Monkey (which I bought as a result of this forum)

I too bought LM because of this forum.

[CMerLand]

Well Mr Admininstrator let me see if I have this right. Clip decides to drop its sponsorship because of a lack of traffic across its site here, and you say that its their fault for not being interactive with the lack of activity in the community. And then you post on your own very moderated forum, and basically say that it must be CLIPs fault because they did not actively manage their list.


Kirbys point is right on the money. If Lawnsite as an advertising source was not bringing in the sales vs cost, then they would be foolish to continue pumping dollars into advertising thats not working. Perhaps they've decided that their ads in PRO, or Lawn and Landscape had far more bang for their buck. Maybe your salesmanship was so impressive that they expected far more then they actually got from their sponsorship here.

"Maybe you built the field, but nobody came!"

But to come online and say its the customers fault, is veryyy poor business, and all other sponsors better take heed of what the adminstrator posts after you decide to leave Lawnsite.
A few weeks ago, you lost a sponsor because they've decided to put there advertising dollars somewhere else in the short term. By coming on here and saying it was them not me, Im certain you have probably lost them forever as a potential customer.

Now Mr. Admininstrator, since such a big deal has been made about moderated vs unmoderated forums, lets see if you have the integrity to leave this post unedited and actually post it on the forum. Lets also see if chose not to revoke my posting priviliedges because I took your comments head on and they disagree with yours.

Sincerely.
CMerLand

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Originally posted by CMerLand

"Maybe you built the field, but nobody came!"



You posted the answer to you own question.

What are they going to come to?

A forum where there was no partisapation from the sponsors.

4 posts total in the entire forum from Clip.

I see other sponsors interacting with the community.

Look at almost all the post in refference to Gravely. What do you think that does to sale, a respnce from the peolpe who make the product. Doesn't that help at all with sales. Hell yes.

Heck, I got here from the Lawn Monkey site, and Pro Mag.

Tell us this, what is selling? What is advertising?

Comunication and comunicating is your answers.

BTW why would "your" opinion get edited?

[Administrator]

CMerLand

I never "sold" anything to CLIP. They came to me... as a matter of fact, I don't think I have ever approached a manufacturer requesting or offering anything. So, your sales pitch theory is out the window... you assume to much.

It boils down to this... CLIP has their own Internet projects that need to be concentrated on. Anything above or beyond that is none of our business.

Also, I don't remember ever using the word "fault"
I am not attacking CLIP for their decision. This all started from a post that was asking for a reply. My reply was short, to the point, and the truth. Here.. I will refresh your memory." Clip no longer wants to be affiliated with the community."

Now, as far as LawnSite.com company/product worth and effectiveness why don't you ask eXmark, Hustler, Gravely, or any other sponsor what they think of their affiliation results. Hrm... even DC who has never sponsored LS has credited Eric and LS with over 100+ ZTR sales. Why? Because Eric interacted with the community and totally supported their product which lead to sales.

I will go out on a limb and say I think dollar for dollar, LawnSite.com, statistically generates better results for the advertiser than traditional print media. As mentioned before, print ads can only take you so far. Traditionally, the only way for the mfg to interact with the industry was through trade shows. Again, that's on a limb since I don't have any figures to go by.

When a company approaches me for sponsorship the first thing I ask them is their advertising goals. If a company's only interest is "traffic" I would not accept them for sponsorship. This is an interactive community and I want interactive sponsors.

Remember, when it comes to LawnSite.com I am Alpha & Omega. I will moderate, edit, delete, remove, or change anything on this site to my hearts desire IF I want to. I have always made it a point NOT to censor discussions but I try to keep discussion in line and as professional as possible. Since you have so much interest in this subject... why don't you go start your own site. You never know, you just might succeed in re-inventing the wheel.

Again, this site is simply that, a SITE. This site just happens to control the largest percentage of industry related activity. Then again, do you think LawnSite.com currently receives over one million monthly page views on accident? NO, I know a thing or two when it comes to targeting demographics via the Internet or other traditional methods. Am I bragging?, well, I guess you could say I am quite proud of this communities accomplishments. I am glad to be able to provide a "place" where people can communicate.

I didn't lose a sponsor, a mfg lost an opportunity to be associated with the most active industry related site on the Internet.

I am still in this for the same reason I started.. to help Industry peers communicate on the Internet. I can also guarantee you this... If ANY manufacturer is willing to directly interact and help the community with their discussions or replies I would be willing to offer them support even without paying. (But, I will not be taken advantage of or sacrifice the sponsors who have decided to show their support via money) Yes, its a fine line but if mfgs would simply get involved they would see their advertising budget needs to have more focus on the Internet.

If eXmark told me tomorrow that their ad campaign budget was dry I would continue with their affiliation because they are an asset to this community. ( along with my other sponsors ) Of course sponsorship keeps me from funding this site personally but I would find a way, with or without.

Trust me, current sponsors know the value of their affiliation and I think would be more than willing to offer support in the form of money even if I did not have a price structure setup for ad campaigns.

To me, your last paragraph is daring or taunting me to revoke your membership privileges. If so, don't worry about pushing my buttons, just ask.

I will now take a moment to give thanks to my members, moderators, lurkers & sponsors. Without the community LawnSite.com would be another dead in the water site. Thank you everyone and I promise to always do my best to keep this community up and running, via it sponsorship money, new technology, targeting more members to continue community growth, etc., etc., etc,.

Chuck Keough

[ArboristSite]

CMerLand,
I would have to agree with Chuck for sure. Your post shows your ignorance of the advertising industry. Why pay for something you dont use? What Clip was doing is like buying a snowplow in Florida. I think when a sponsor doesnt respond to its questions directed to them it reflects the company (clip). You arern't only buying software you are also buying service. When you don't respond it reflects your business. Its in LS best interest that they left too. When there is no interaction it also reflects LS. Chuck, Congrats on being an educated individual and not get involved with this childish taunting!! I am glad to reciprocate our links!!! AS and LS should get rid of the BS.:D