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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-07-2009, 12:42 PM
Well after a LONG wait I have it here in my hands now... The smallest, smartest, best output LED Bi-Pin (G4) Lamp I have come across.

This is a great little lamp... its output is equivalent to an 18W xenon lamp at 160 Lumens, its colour output is truly warm white at 2800K, it has an MTBF rating of 50,000 hours, it has an integrated heat sink that keeps the chips and board operating at below 40c (ambient temp of 21c), and it is just slightly larger then a typical xenon bi-pin lamp so it will fit in all of our applications!

Here are some of the technical specs:

Power Consumption: 1.6 Watts
Input Voltage: 10 - 15 Vac/Vdc
Luminous Flux: 160 Lumens
CRI: >75 (typical)
Colour Temperature: 2800K
15 SMD LEDs
Rated Lifespan: 50,000 hrs
Construction: Direct mounted PC board with bonded aluminum heat sink
Pin Size: G4 Bi-Pin (4mm spacing)

TXNSLighting
01-07-2009, 03:54 PM
Its about time. I have been wanting some of these and am in need on an existing clients system.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-07-2009, 04:20 PM
Ryan... pricing and availabilty are being established now. It won't happen overnight. Good things take time.

Also there is the issue of pin location. As you can see this current configuration will only work in some applications, namely where the socket is located 90 deg. from the aperture or lens of the fixture. I am working at getting another configuration made that would see the pins coming out of the back side (heat sink side) of the lamp allowing it to be installed in fixtures that have the socket behind the aperture. (For now, it is possible to very gently and slowly bend the pins down 90 Deg. but you have to be careful and only do it once.)

As an application note: These lamps would not be suitable for open fixtures. I would suspect that direct contact to moisture, dirt, dust would drastically affect the performance of the lamp.

Regards.

David Gretzmier
01-08-2009, 02:11 AM
James- These look directional. I'm guessing these work best for washers or deck post pucks? I am trying to visualize these in pathlights and I am coming up with 1/2 a light. does the bulb have emitters on both sides? also, what is the voltage range these work with?

and -I'm not trying to be a jerk, just offering advice. as this is your product you will sell, and many on here will buy from you because you are on this website, you need to consider being a sponsor of the site. Folks that benefit directly, financially from this site should help the site financially. At some point the mod's will insist on it. Your doing so before they insist would show you recognize that your position on these boards has changed from an installer to a retailer.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-08-2009, 07:51 AM
David, yes they are directional. They will work perfectly in all sorts of applications such as step lights, mini floods, post lights, and such. They will still work in a lot of pathlight applications once the pins get moved to a 180 Deg. orientation.

I can see these replacing xenon and halogen lamps in a huge assortment of applications from Landscape lighting to Marine & RV applications and then ther is the millions of lamps currently installed in interior puck light, undercabinet, desk lamp, and niche type fixtures.

Regards.

(On the other matter, thanks for your concern. Lawnsite and I seem to have found a middle ground for now. There are several contributors here who manufacture and distribute products and we all 'sell' stuff. The information I have provided is just that.... information about a new lamp that is going to be available to all of the market. I am not trying to be a jerk, just offering advice. MYOB.)

David Gretzmier
01-08-2009, 11:47 AM
so when you say 180 degree, you are talking about the emitters facing up ? so the pins go 90 degrees from the base and the bulb instead of upright, is on its side when inserted? I think that is what you mean, or are we talking about a different bulb entirely that goes in traditionally, but has emitters on all sides like the new yardbright.com g4 led bulb? I was looking at that one the other day, and it has 360 degrees of emitters, even one on the tip going "up" .

As fas as the other thing, I am glad you have cleared it with them. Over the last 7 years I've seen a ton of guys use this site for free,and then when it came time to sell thier stuff, they benefitted financially from thier time here. The rules in the past have been if you sell something to the members that post here, then you should be a sponsor. Those that did not comply lost posting privaledges. Although i've seen exceptions made for local lawn care dealers, this is the first direct selling internet company exception I've seen.
I'm guessing there must be others that I have not seen yet. I was not aware they changed the rules that much.

Is there a reason specifically you don't want to sponsor? Is it too expensive? given you've posted almost 2000 times in 18 months, you obviously like the site and what it offers you. You've given tons of advice to myself and others over the time you've been here. You are knowledgable in your field and your advice is normally spot on. I would think sponsorship would be a natural step for you given all the different marketing you do. Maybe I'm just wrong, but I can't help but think that you would sell more product if you were a sponsor.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-08-2009, 03:30 PM
David. It is my intention to get this lamp available in two versions. One as displayed above and another with the pins coming out of the back (heat sink side). I took a look at that yardbright.com bi-pin LED. No comparison at all my friend, not even close. When you are packing 160 lumens output in such a small format you have to deal with the heat. That yardbright lamp produces only 20 lumens.

As for the other thing... I am simply providing information about a new lamp I have found. Look at my registration and signature line here... Do you see any references to anything other then my contracting & design company? I think I am still allowed to post information about new products as they are discovered and come available. If that changes so then will my willingness to participate here. My 'other business' is a tiny startup, established for the most part to serve a small local, regional and to some degree National market. It is no John Deere or Catapillar or Unique Lighting for that matter. The information that I have posted here in regards to products that I sell through that business has been for your benefit and knowledge. I certainly have not experienced any significant financial gain from providing that information.

David Gretzmier
01-09-2009, 01:19 AM
Thanks for answering my questions.

I really don't think I can get you to see my ethical point, so just continue what you are doing.

indylights
01-09-2009, 10:10 AM
David,

I'm sure this doesn't make you feel any better, but I see your ethical point and agree with you 100%.

Jim Maloney
Sunflower Landscapes
Bloomington, Indiana

Lite4
01-09-2009, 11:20 AM
I have been pretty stand offish about LEDs in the past, but I am actually becoming fairly excited to see some of the new offerings this year from the various Manus. They are coming closer to Halogen much faster than I had previously expected. Just as many have stated it certainly does open the door for some 'non-traditional' wiring methods and installation opportunities.

LightYourNight
01-13-2009, 02:06 PM
Im excited. I want to test this lamp. Who is selling these?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-13-2009, 03:27 PM
I am glad you are excited about it John, so am I. It is a really nice little lamp. Warmer then you would ever imagine from an LED source. If you want more details you will have to send me a PM or email.

Regards.

David Gretzmier
01-14-2009, 09:46 AM
Thanks james.

irrig8r
01-14-2009, 11:19 AM
I've already asked James about this and he doesn't seem too interested, but I'm thinking of all the troubles I've had with bi-pins loosening up in their sockets.

Then I think of all the SCBs in place on jobs where either I installed or run across Nightscaping Footliters and Illuminators, especially the longer lived copper or stainless versions...

Is there really not a market for an SCB version of this lamp?

Lite4
01-14-2009, 12:20 PM
I just replaced bulbs in some SCB footliters I came across last month. Nightscape is not really big in our area but I know they dominate in others. If James doesn't come up with one, someone else will. When there is a need, there will always be someone there to fill it. The only other options would be to consider anything from Nightscaping, FX or any of the other manus that use SCB, obsolete. I don't think this will happen as there is a lot of brand loyalty out there for these manus.

irrig8r
01-14-2009, 12:52 PM
I just replaced bulbs in some SCB footliters I came across last month. Nightscape is not really big in our area but I know they dominate in others. If James doesn't come up with one, someone else will. When there is a need, there will always be someone there to fill it. The only other options would be to consider anything from Nightscaping, FX or any of the other manus that use SCB, obsolete. I don't think this will happen as there is a lot of brand loyalty out there for these manus.

Actually, this alternative SCB replacement looks interesting too, at least for some fixtures... maybe too bright for some:

http://www.cast-lighting.com/products/lamps/bayonet-mount/84/

Anyone using them? Is there another source?

BTW, in my experience, the FX fixtures are DCB, not SCB.

JoeyD
01-14-2009, 01:00 PM
Those Xenon and Halogen SCB and DCB lamps have been available for quite a while now. I personally hate SCB and DCB lamps and sockets. I had to service a whole mess of one companys path lights with SCB lamps and every single socket was corroded and trying to get those lamps to come loose was a fricken nightmare!! The fixtures had no "sprinkler guards" or what most would call a lens.

I cant remember anyone returning any path/area lights to us because the bi pin lamps were loose.....A good quality socket should hold the lamps tight unless the socket had a larger pin inserted causing the newer thinner pinned lamp to not fit tightly.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-14-2009, 09:24 PM
I've already asked James about this and he doesn't seem too interested, but I'm thinking of all the troubles I've had with bi-pins loosening up in their sockets.

Then I think of all the SCBs in place on jobs where either I installed or run across Nightscaping Footliters and Illuminators, especially the longer lived copper or stainless versions...

Is there really not a market for an SCB version of this lamp?

Gregg it is not that I have no interest in a SCB LED Lamp, it is just that I have to focus my time, energy and resources on developing LED lamp technologies that will have the broadest possible market. Remember that I am a small (manpower wise) operation. The Bi-Pin lamp is far more common then the SCB lamp for general illumination applications.

[QUOTE=irrig8r;2697402]Actually, this alternative SCB replacement looks interesting too, at least for some fixtures... maybe too bright for some:

http://www.cast-lighting.com/products/lamps/bayonet-mount/84/

Anyone using them? Is there another source?[QUOTE] I have used the halogen/xenon SCB lamp, or at least let me say that I have tried to use it! That things produces more heat than most SCB sockets can handle. Certainly any of the NS SCB sockets were never designed for the heat that lamp produces. I even found that when installed in an inverted application, where the socket was above the lamp, the heat from the lamp melted the solder that held the lamp wires onto the lamp base! The only socket I would use that Halogen/Xenon SCB lamp in is the all metal Hadco socket... but it rusts!

Have a great day.

irrig8r
01-14-2009, 10:03 PM
Joey....
1. Any installer who knows his stuff would have used some kind of lubricant in those sockets at each lamp change.
2. Nightscaping Footliters and Illuminators have come standard with sprinkler shields for 10 years or more.

James...
I was wondering about the heat issue. Also, at 20W ea. they might replace 1156s or 1141s, but not a bunch of 93s unless there was a lot of room for expansion to begin with.

So.... if the goal is a more efficient system, xenon/ halogen would not be the way to go... if it's just longer bulb life you want, it might work well for some.

An LED SCB retrofit would be a nice thing to have.

LightYourNight
01-14-2009, 10:15 PM
An LED SCB retrofit would be a nice thing to have.

Hey I actually found this site earlier:

LED SBC http://www.ledlight.com/1156-1157-automotive-led-lights.aspx


Pretty interested to see how these work.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-15-2009, 12:22 AM
Hey I actually found this site earlier:

LED SBC http://www.ledlight.com/1156-1157-automotive-led-lights.aspx


Pretty interested to see how these work.

They are not going to work for you John... those are all 12 volt DC lamps, for automotive applications. Even if they did fire on 12Vac the brighter ones would burn up fast as they have no heat sinks. They are designed for momentary and short term use, not continuous general illumination. Also, the colour from the 'white' lamps will be most unpleasant to your eye.

Regards.

David Gretzmier
01-15-2009, 12:26 AM
I'm sure these were designed for vehicles, DC voltage, so they may have a flicker to them. Unless you can see the bulb, homeowners may not notice. also, probably made to work from 11 volts to 14, rather than the larger range that landscape light only LED bulbs seem to work.

I've tried LED automotive bulbs before in the 1141 size, In the good old Nightscaping pathliter, and they were blueish and dim. They were the 5mm led about 15 of them on one bulb, but probably only 8000mcd 5mm leds, than the newer 20k mcdd that are on some of those hotter bulbs with 140 lumens.

probably worth 20 bucks to try one in a system and see what color it is and if it lasts.

LightYourNight
01-15-2009, 10:00 AM
thanks james. why dont they have lamp like this for ac?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-15-2009, 12:42 PM
I would assume because of limited demand for them. Can you think of any other application other then LV landscape lighting where a 12V SCB lamp is used in an AC circuit?

irrig8r
01-15-2009, 04:30 PM
So, let me get this straight... standard SCB lamps will work with either AC or DC, but the LED versions are either one or the other because of the requisite driver?

LightYourNight
01-15-2009, 04:51 PM
So, let me get this straight... standard SCB lamps will work with either AC or DC, but the LED versions are either one or the other because of the requisite driver? ya arent 1156 lamps auto lamps???

David Gretzmier
01-15-2009, 06:14 PM
You can use led DC bulbs in an AC system, but you probably will not get the performance or color you'd get from a bulb designed from the ground up to be in a landscape fixture.

Standard,non-LED auto lamps work in AC low voltage systems all day long. 1141's and 1156's probably the most common in pathlights, before the bi-pin they were everywhere. Led automotive bulbs are always behind a lens that is colored in someway, even reverse lenses for cars are usually a cludy white color.

so the color of the LED in auto applications is not such a big deal, in fact a warm white color is probably discouraged because warm white LED's tend to produce less lumens, and cost more. Therefore an auto LED will use a blueish white LED, and putting them in landscape app's will give you that wonderful blue white of solar paths. except brighter.

newer LED's may be on some of these, so it may be worth checking them out, but I would only buy one. Again, the voltage on LED automotive bulbs is gonna be higher, typically an auto bulb works between 12 and 14 volts.

jimmy1111
01-26-2009, 05:26 PM
so the color of the LED in auto applications is not such a big deal, in fact a warm white color is probably discouraged because warm white LED's tend to produce less lumens, and cost more. Therefore an auto LED will use a blueish white LED, and putting them in landscape app's will give you that wonderful blue white of solar paths. except brighter.



So who is that Genious who came up with the Blueish White Color for the LED's used in Auto ??? Aren't they supposed to replace the Incadescant/Halogen type Bulbs that they had in cars before that Blueish crap came-up to mind ???? eventhough as Dave said in cars you usually have some kind of Lens of a color of some kind...but I still don't get the point to start with a stupid Bluesish color than have the lens to change its color !!!

This is another reason to stick to the basics no matter how geneous you are and what are trying to invent.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-26-2009, 05:43 PM
Jimmy... warm white LEDs are actually made by using cool white (daylight, blueish, call them what you want) LED chips, generally in the 4000K to 6000K range and applying a phosphor coating on them that alters the colout output, essentially warming up the light output to the 3000K +/- that we know and love. The net effect is a slightly decreased efficiency, additional materials (the phosphors have had to be researched and developed at great expense) and some technological hurdles to make the phosphors last.

It is much easier and less costly to produce a highly efficient and bright LED lamp in the cool white range then it is in the warm white range. This is why you see so many cool white 'bargain basement' LEDs on the market.

David Gretzmier
01-26-2009, 06:14 PM
Looking again at that website, it seems they do have some warm white led bulbs available, and at 140 lumens, If in fact they put out that, that is pretty bright. at 20 bucks a bulb, really gets your attention, and yes, James is right, no heatsink and probably were not designed for constant burn, rather the intermittant burn of brake lights, reverse lights, turn signals, etc.

I suppose you could argue in a traffic jam you have your foot on the brake for 20 minutes to hours, and they should be made for that, but who knows.

I too have replaced tons of sockets that seem to no longer grip the pins, either mr-16 or g6 or g4 bi-pins. I probably replace a socket on every 3 rebulbs or so. or roughly one out of 100 bulbs replaced.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-26-2009, 06:32 PM
David, I am pretty sure that a 12VDC LED lamp will not operate on a 12VAC circuit. Unless they have a rectifier circuit on board (these do not appear to). Remember, we are not talking about a simple filament inside a gas filled envelope here. These are electronic circuits.

HB LEDs have very specific voltage and amperage requirements.

Regards.

jimmy1111
01-27-2009, 06:14 PM
Jimmy... warm white LEDs are actually made by using cool white (daylight, blueish, call them what you want) LED chips, generally in the 4000K to 6000K range and applying a phosphor coating on them that alters the colout output, essentially warming up the light output to the 3000K +/- that we know and love. The net effect is a slightly decreased efficiency, additional materials (the phosphors have had to be researched and developed at great expense) and some technological hurdles to make the phosphors last.

It is much easier and less costly to produce a highly efficient and bright LED lamp in the cool white range then it is in the warm white range. This is why you see so many cool white 'bargain basement' LEDs on the market.

Well how about having a colored lens arround that give the warm white color or even colored reflectors around the socket like MR 16's that give the Warm White effect ?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-27-2009, 07:42 PM
The very nature of the light energy that LEDs produce do not lend themselves to being filtered with coloured lenses effectively. It is possible, but the intensity of the light would be drastically reduced. Miniature LED lamps are producing marginal light intensity levels to begin with so any reduction in intensity would render them ineffective for general illumination applications.

The HB (High Brightness) "power LEDs" that are on the market now require robust heatsinks to remove the heat they produce so that they don't suffer from lumen maintenance issues. None of the automotive style LED lamps I have found address heat issues.

Then there is the whole AC/DC isssue. DC only LED lamps are simply not going to work on AC circuits unless they have rectifiers built on-board.

Be patient... thing will continue to evolve and develop over time. For now we have some excellent LED MR16 lamps on the market and this new Bi-Pin LED lamp I am working on should be quite effective and hopefully available to the market soon.

jimmy1111
01-27-2009, 08:56 PM
Be patient... thing will continue to evolve and develop over time. For now we have some excellent LED MR16 lamps on the market and this new Bi-Pin LED lamp I am working on should be quite effective and hopefully available to the market soon.


This LED MR16 that is coming up which Halogen Watt equivalent would it be ? and how much Watt would it actually use ?

as you critize the heck out me on my loads in the other forum...this LED would be my perfect solution to drop the wattage without having me deleting fixtures.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-27-2009, 09:11 PM
The Luxxo LED MR16 is a direct replacement for a 20W Halogen MR16 lamp, but only consumes 3.6 watts. It is currently available in a 60 Degree optic and will soon be shipping in a 38 Degree optic as well. It is a warm white lamp at 3100K. I have installed nearly 1000 of these in landscape lighting applications so far with great sucess. Contact me directly via email if you would like more information as to where you might obtain these lamps.

David Gretzmier
02-04-2009, 10:13 AM
James- Sorry so long to respond, my electric has been out for a week because of ice storm. The DC 1141/1156 bulbs I have used that are LED do work in 12 volt AC landscape light fixtures, but they are very blueish and dim. I would not recccomend them. I have not tried the newer 1/2 watt led trees or the higher power units, so I cannot say whether they will work.

jimmy1111
02-04-2009, 06:59 PM
The Luxxo LED MR16 is a direct replacement for a 20W Halogen MR16 lamp, but only consumes 3.6 watts. It is currently available in a 60 Degree optic and will soon be shipping in a 38 Degree optic as well. It is a warm white lamp at 3100K. I have installed nearly 1000 of these in landscape lighting applications so far with great sucess. Contact me directly via email if you would like more information as to where you might obtain these lamps.

So are these blueish like the solar lights as Dave is talking about...or these are different and provide similar ligth color like the Halogens ?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-04-2009, 07:32 PM
Jimmy. They are warm white at 3100K, just a slight bit cooler than a GE Halogen at 2900K

When installed as a system, most people cannot see any difference between the LED MR16 and a quality Halogen MR16. The colour difference is apparent when you place them side by side in an application such as wall washing or grazing architecture.

Regards.