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View Full Version : Split pre-em apps with different pre-ems


grassguy_
01-08-2009, 11:24 AM
Those of you that do split apps of pre-emergents in spring and early summer (cool season scenario), how many use a different pre emergent with each treatment? Was wondering if anyone has seen a significant difference in controls when varying the types of pre-emergent. Have used Dimension on both split apps here but have considered alternatives for the coming year. What's your experiences?

grassman177
01-08-2009, 03:05 PM
if you use too much( as in two types at full strength you will hurt the turf and prune roots etc, if you use split apps of two types, you are never giving enough ai of each product to get control. control is only acheived through the right app rate in total wether it is one or slpit app. the split app approach gives you the option to prolong the control by building the ai concentration in the soil over a longer period of time to acheive success. the total ai is still the same as max rate but you have less degredation with two app approach becasue the second dose is fresher and has less time in the environment. hope this is understandable

JDUtah
01-08-2009, 03:43 PM
Well stated grassman.

I would add to that...

Remember it is law to not use less than the minimum rate on the label. Using the minimum rate or mor increases your chances that you kill the plant instead of hurting it just to let it survve and potentially build an immunity.

If you split apps at half rate of each product you might not be following the min. app rate and could be helping plants develop a resistance to both pesticides.

Split apps of the same product are part of the label. Split apps of different products are not.

Some pre-m's can be used with others. Read labels labels labels, and more labels.

Hope I didn't confuse.

grassguy_
01-08-2009, 05:32 PM
I do understand your points, wasn't confusing at all!
i was just interested in knowing if others have done this before too. I haven't, but know someone who had used barricade at low end ai out the gate then came back with Dimension later at low ai. It didn't, seemingly, have any effect phytotoxically to the lawns that i know were treated that way, but I, like you both have said, would be concerned of some problems doing so. They only done a hand full of lawns that way, as they went from one product to the next when they ran out of the barricade. I always understood it as you indicated grassman177, that by split apping you are reinforcing the original product via with the same product, not some other type of pre.

ProLawns
01-08-2009, 07:05 PM
Barricade can me applied to achieve up to 8 months coverage. Why would need two apps?

grassman177
01-08-2009, 08:31 PM
yeah, we use barricade after about 6 years of dimension, used pre-em for 3 years before that. in a few more years i wil switch again. it is all about not letting a resistant variety get a population to add to your problems.

grassguy_
01-08-2009, 10:28 PM
PROLAWNS
guy only had so much barricade and went low end with material knowing he was going to be getting Dimension later. I've used Barricade before and always liked its longevity, until dimension gave the expanded window of pre and post control.

whoopassonthebluegrass
01-13-2009, 01:54 PM
Barricade can me applied to achieve up to 8 months coverage. Why would need two apps?

Cost and convenience is why.

I can apply Prodiamine at the 6 month rate, sure. But I have to use more - AND late comers don't get any.

Rather, I run two 3-month apps. This way I spend less on the chemical itself, and even all the late signups receive the benefit of the pre-em.

PLUS, it potentially helps on those folks who failed to get their first round watered in properly...

EGL&L
01-13-2009, 04:34 PM
And lets not forget that in a wet spring, that one app can leach through the soil profile.

robertsturf
01-13-2009, 11:08 PM
Cost and convenience is why.

I can apply Prodiamine at the 6 month rate, sure. But I have to use more - AND late comers don't get any.

Rather, I run two 3-month apps. This way I spend less on the chemical itself, and even all the late signups receive the benefit of the pre-em.

PLUS, it potentially helps on those folks who failed to get their first round watered in properly...

It is not cheaper to do split apps with pre-emergent. Do the math. Your 1st app price is higher but your 2nd app is a lot less with no pre-emergence. I have done it both ways but for the last 3-4 years only 1 app with late comers getting Dimension for early emerging c/g.

whoopassonthebluegrass
01-13-2009, 11:33 PM
It is not cheaper to do split apps with pre-emergent. Do the math. Your 1st app price is higher but your 2nd app is a lot less with no pre-emergence. I have done it both ways but for the last 3-4 years only 1 app with late comers getting Dimension for early emerging c/g.

Sorry, my friend, you're wrong.

6 month rate of Prodiamine calls for: 24oz /acre
3 month rate is 10oz / acre.

This might be a little tricky, but if you follow along carefully, I think you'll see the magic:

2 x 10oz < 1 x 24oz

Both get 6 months of coverage, with the benefits I mentioned in my first post - making the split app better.

robertsturf
01-14-2009, 12:01 AM
Sorry, my friend, you're wrong.

6 month rate of Prodiamine calls for: 24oz /acre
3 month rate is 10oz / acre.

This might be a little tricky, but if you follow along carefully, I think you'll see the magic:

2 x 10oz < 1 x 24oz

Both get 6 months of coverage, with the benefits I mentioned in my first post - making the split app better.

I am not necessarily talking about which program is better in this instance I am strictly speaking about cost. I was quoted a price for 1 app product vs split product in granular form with Mesa fert. The cost wast cheaper for the 2 apps altogether with the 1 app rate of Barracade and the second app being slow-release fert and w/c. If you add the cost of the second app of pre even at the split app rate it is higher because you still have a more expensive product than fert.

whoopassonthebluegrass
01-14-2009, 12:04 AM
I am not necessarily talking about which program is better in this instance I am strictly speaking about cost. I was quoted a price for 1 app product vs split product in granular form with Mesa fert. The cost wast cheaper for the 2 apps altogether with the 1 app rate of Barracade and the second app being slow-release fert and w/c. If you add the cost of the second app of pre even at the split app rate it is higher because you still have a more expensive product than fert.

Ah, gotcha. Sorry for being an ass, then. I run liquid with the 65WDG because I can run that 6 month program at a total pre-emergent cost of $0.50/M - which makes it too attractive to pass up. I apologize.

robertsturf
01-14-2009, 12:17 AM
That does make more sense now. We use a Perma-Green ultra for our apps. I used to drag a hose but I'm getting to old for that, ha, ha,..

RigglePLC
01-14-2009, 09:25 AM
This is a mystery--you will not find it on the label and there is no university money or industry support to finance this kind of research. What happens if you use prodiamine and follow up with Dimension? Or Dimension first--or mix the two in the tank? What about Team? Ronstar? They all have slightly different modes of action. Different root-pruning possibilities. Would it be different on goosegrass?

Try it, and then tell us what happened.

whoopassonthebluegrass
01-14-2009, 10:01 AM
Try it, and then tell us what happened.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

LawnTamer
01-14-2009, 10:27 AM
All right... I'll be the one brave enough to admit that I tried it. I had a couple of cases of left over pendi. I also do split apps for some of the same reasons Whoop mentioned. I used pendi for my first round Mar/Apr. Ran out about half way through the round and switched to Prodiamine (Barricade). Then followed up with 2nd round May through 1st week of June, using just the Prodiamine.

I noticed better control on the lawns that only received prodiamine compared to those that received pendi and prodiamine.

I would not mix and match.... that is just me. So far as I'm concerned, there is little advantage in Dimension. Crabgrass here goes from germination to tillering stage lightning fast, with hundreds of accounts, there is no way to hit them all with Dimension during that tiny window when it will kill plants pre-tiller stage.

I may use dimension every once in a while to rotate what I am using, because I hate pendi. I would prefer Prodiamine hands down..

turf hokie
01-14-2009, 10:55 AM
I'll jump in too now that the seal is broken.

We have some lawns that the landscaper insists on doing his first round in house. He uses Team Pro and we use dimension on the second. Unfortunately I dont know his rate to help out. But we used a .09 Dimension so we did not apply a full season rate of dimension on top of the team. We treated it as though we had applied dimension on round 1.

So far it seems like it is actually a good combo as these lawns has less spurge etc, and no noticeable crab breakthru.