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turf hokie
01-13-2009, 08:56 AM
Just thought you guys would find this interesting if you were considering an organic bridge program

This pic is ours on the right with NON irrigated turf. The left side is a theirs and irrigated. I wont name THEM but they drive brown trucks. I dont know what they did or did not apply just the end result in the pic.

We applied 3 fert applications with one pre-emergent and 1 weed spray. This was after 1 season. We followed up with a winterizer for our 4th round after this pic was taken.

Just an FYI we did not even hit the recommended organic matter for the season.

Oh yeah, we dont cut the grass just happened to catch them there.

ted putnam
01-13-2009, 09:21 AM
Just thought you guys would find this interesting if you were considering an organic bridge program

This pic is ours on the right with NON irrigated turf. The left side is a theirs and irrigated. I wont name THEM but they drive brown trucks. I dont know what they did or did not apply just the end result in the pic.

We applied 3 fert applications with one pre-emergent and 1 weed spray. This was after 1 season. We followed up with a winterizer for our 4th round after this pic was taken.

Just an FYI we did not even hit the recommended organic matter for the season.

Oh yeah, we dont cut the grass just happened to catch them there.

Very impressive !!!!

phasthound
01-13-2009, 09:39 AM
Just thought you guys would find this interesting if you were considering an organic bridge program

This pic is ours on the right with NON irrigated turf. The left side is a theirs and irrigated. I wont name THEM but they drive brown trucks. I dont know what they did or did not apply just the end result in the pic.

We applied 3 fert applications with one pre-emergent and 1 weed spray. This was after 1 season. We followed up with a winterizer for our 4th round after this pic was taken.

Just an FYI we did not even hit the recommended organic matter for the season.

Oh yeah, we dont cut the grass just happened to catch them there.

Nah, that stuff doesn't work. :)

ted putnam
01-13-2009, 09:55 AM
Nah, that stuff doesn't work. :)

Barry, you're right, it doesn't work. :rolleyes: Nice job TH. Barry, you need to pat yourself on the back! By the way, thanks for the sample. I'm looking forward to trying it. It's definitely different than what I'm used to. The smell was no worse than most synthetics I've used. If so, only slightly. The biggest thing I noticed was smaller particle size overall and color. I'll have to "tinker" with calibration and have to really watch spread widths. It looks as though it will be harder to see while applying. I won't know for sure until I begin to use it. Thanks...and again, I'm impressed!

NattyLawn
01-13-2009, 10:12 AM
Barry, you're right, it doesn't work. :rolleyes: Nice job TH. Barry, you need to pat yourself on the back! By the way, thanks for the sample. I'm looking forward to trying it. It's definitely different than what I'm used to. The smell was no worse than most synthetics I've used. If so, only slightly. The biggest thing I noticed was smaller particle size overall and color. I'll have to "tinker" with calibration and have to really watch spread widths. It looks as though it will be harder to see while applying. I won't know for sure until I begin to use it. Thanks...and again, I'm impressed!

Ted,

Which product did you get a sample of? On larger acreage and picky customers I tend to use the 16-2-3. I like it because I can see the prills a lot easier because of the sulfur coated urea. When you're using the 6-2-4 and 4-4-2 I have to watch for the prills to hit the blades....It's something you get used to.

ted putnam
01-13-2009, 10:25 AM
Natty, he sent me a sample of the 16-2-3. Like you said, The SCU is visible and will help the visual for me by providing some "tracers" but it's still going to take some getting used to. It's very different from the predominantly white synthetics I'm familiar with. I'm thinking I'll purchase a spyker spreader and dedicate it to the organic product.

jbturf
01-13-2009, 12:59 PM
looks nice -- some credit to the mowers as well,
wow no skid rings around the obstacles and
are they actually using sharpened blades

rcreech
01-13-2009, 01:39 PM
That is awesome! I am looking into Barry's product as we speak!


Couple of questions though:

Are the turf types the same?

What is the age comparison of the two lawns?

Is the fert program really the culprit?


Here is the only reason I ask:

I take care of a bank and it is RIGHT BESIDE a drug store!

I don't treat the drug store's lawn but it is much older, and is PR and KYB. I seeded the bank 3 years ago.

The difference in the banks lawn and the drug store looks exactly like this and I have NEVER used and organic based product! It is a distinct line between the properties and the thickness and color is crazy different!

I don't think its as much about the product I am using as much as it just being a newer lawn and different turf type (which is TTTF). TTTF always does much better at the beginning of a drought but will still go dormant!

Not being negative at all, but as Paul Harvey says....and now for the rest of the story!

No matter what...grass will ALWAYS go dormant in a drought to protect itself. Drought is usually more related to moisture and soil types.
Fertility although important, it is just part of the equation, as moisture is the BIG ONE! I don't see orgnic fert making that much difference in the two lawns personally, but can't wait to check it out!

What is the % of organic product that is blended with Sny to form a bridge product? Do you think that applying this product at 3 lbs/k will make that much difference?

Real Green
01-13-2009, 02:13 PM
I wont name THEM but they drive brown trucks.

I didn't know U.P.S. had a lawn care division now!?!?! :confused:











:laugh:

SLC, LLC
01-13-2009, 02:16 PM
Who is Barry nad how do I get ahold of him or ahold of anyone for additional information on this organic material?

JDUtah
01-13-2009, 02:20 PM
Looks good!

I agree with Rodney, remember to consider ALL variables before giving credit to just one of them (if not more than one),

To add to what Rodney said if the left lawn was on regular light irrigation which suddenly stopped (drought restrictions), then the right lawn had a better chance to develop drought tolerance.

"If fertilization and irrigation provide abundant nutrients and water, root growth may not keep pace with shoot growth. Plant growth under such conditions becomes carbohydrate limited, and a relatively small root system meets the nutrient needs of the whole plant" (Plant Physiology 4th edition, Tiaz & Zeiger, pg 86)

Being non irrigated and organically fed the right lawn could have been subject to conditions that would encourage it to put more energy into root growth which, come irrigation restrictions (were there any? how long before this pic were they enacted?) would mean it had more root surface area and thus more drought tolerance... and was not dependant on "protien shakes" so-to speak.

Turf species and sub-species are things to consider as well. Not to mention maintenance practices...

I'm not knocking organics just trying to think of all possible scenarios. It looks great and I am excited to be doing organics. Good work Turf Hokie!

rcreech
01-13-2009, 02:38 PM
Looks good!

I agree with Rodney, remember to consider ALL variables before giving credit to just one of them (if not more than one),

To add to what Rodney said if the left lawn was on regular light irrigation which suddenly stopped (drought restrictions), then the right lawn had a better chance to develop drought tolerance.

"If fertilization and irrigation provide abundant nutrients and water, root growth may not keep pace with shoot growth. Plant growth under such conditions becomes carbohydrate limited, and a relatively small root system meets the nutrient needs of the whole plant" (Plant Physiology 4th edition, Tiaz & Zeiger, pg 86)

Being non irrigated and organically fed the right lawn could have been subject to conditions that would encourage it to put more energy into root growth which, come irrigation restrictions (were there any? how long before this pic were they enacted?) would mean it had more root surface area and thus more drought tolerance... and was not dependant on "protien shakes" so-to speak.

Turf species and sub-species are things to consider as well. Not to mention maintenance practices...

I'm not knocking organics just trying to think of all possible scenarios. It looks great and I am excited to be doing organics. Good work Turf Hokie!

VERY WELL SAID!

I actaully had a customer last year ticked off at me that his neighbors lawn looked totally better then his. I was already aware of the visual difference and knew what it was.

I told the customer "come here and let me show you something". I showed him his lawn and described the differences about disease and drought tolerance with different turf types, and shared with him that his lawn was PR and that his neighbor had a Fescue lawn. I told him that it had nothing to do with me...but that it was the turf type.

He thought what I told him was amazing!

He has now core/seeding his lawn each fall with TTTF the last two falls!

You have to look much deeper then the fert to see why a lawn is greener then the other!

If you can help educate your customers...they will keep you for life!

There are just too many applicators out here in my area that are just fert slingers and don't know anything!

I LOVE THEM!!!!!:)

JDUtah
01-13-2009, 03:46 PM
Who is Barry nad how do I get ahold of him or ahold of anyone for additional information on this organic material?

Barry is Pasthound. A sponsor of this site. I have had a couple run ins with him but he is a level headed guy with a good product to offer. I support it. I just live too far away AND want to make my own product or I would consider using his.

His website is www.techterraorganics.com

KACYDS
01-13-2009, 03:51 PM
rcreech,

Very well said, It's amazing how long you can keep a customer, by what you know. Taking the extra time and effort to educate the customer goes a long way.

I too see many fert and run guys, that I laugh with amusement. They have to do 2-3 times as many customers as I do, to make the same money. I sell my service and knowledge to the customer and go the extra mile. They don't seem to mind pay extra for a better service. It has worked great so far..........IMO

turf hokie
01-13-2009, 08:32 PM
To answer a few questions.

The site this particular building is on is still under construction. It is a complex with offices, hotels and medical buildings. All have been built and are continuing to be built with the same basic specs as far as I know. And all except one building are within 2 years of each other.

**So assuming everything under the soil is the same.
**The turf types are indeed the same.
**We work closely with the mowing company and they generally mow a bit taller in the 4" range. So this does help.
** I am not sure if the fert program is really fully to blame or applaud as it was not in a controlled environment and I do not know what was done with the neighboring property other than knowing it is on a fertility program.

Knowing that there are other variables why would you not try to build your root structure instead of encouraging top growth or a lawn dependent on "protein shakes".

There were no drought restrictions of any kind this past year.

If irrigation was an issue on the left side lawn then this program just proves how important it is to build a stronger turf for this exact situation or the chance for drought restrictions.

I am not a proponent of one method or the other as far as organic vs. synthetic. I prefer to have as many tools in the box as possible and use them on an IPM basis.

We have other sites without irrigation and they did not hold up like the ones on the organic bridge program did. So at the very least I found it encouraging.

And all four steps were with the 16-2-3 ( l like to employ the K.I.S.S. method as well as I.P.M.:hammerhead:)

I think I answered all questions but feel free to ask away.

rcreech
01-13-2009, 10:55 PM
To answer a few questions.

The site this particular building is on is still under construction. It is a complex with offices, hotels and medical buildings. All have been built and are continuing to be built with the same basic specs as far as I know. And all except one building are within 2 years of each other.

**So assuming everything under the soil is the same.
**The turf types are indeed the same.
**We work closely with the mowing company and they generally mow a bit taller in the 4" range. So this does help.
** I am not sure if the fert program is really fully to blame or applaud as it was not in a controlled environment and I do not know what was done with the neighboring property other than knowing it is on a fertility program.

Knowing that there are other variables why would you not try to build your root structure instead of encouraging top growth or a lawn dependent on "protein shakes".

There were no drought restrictions of any kind this past year.

If irrigation was an issue on the left side lawn then this program just proves how important it is to build a stronger turf for this exact situation or the chance for drought restrictions.

I am not a proponent of one method or the other as far as organic vs. synthetic. I prefer to have as many tools in the box as possible and use them on an IPM basis.

We have other sites without irrigation and they did not hold up like the ones on the organic bridge program did. So at the very least I found it encouraging.

And all four steps were with the 16-2-3 ( l like to employ the K.I.S.S. method as well as I.P.M.:hammerhead:)

I think I answered all questions but feel free to ask away.


Turf Hokie,

That is awesome! Would you post (or PM) your program on here. I agree that is encouraging!

We seem to be getting dryer around here every every year! :cry:

How long have you been using this program?

Do you think that the minute amounts of organics being added (3#/k per app)can make that much difference between the other lawn?

I guess if TG is treating the lawn beside yours...it still isn't a real fair comparison! :laugh:

Kiril
01-13-2009, 11:29 PM
Frankly, I'm surprised no one mentioned aspect as a possible reason for the difference.

turf hokie
01-14-2009, 08:56 AM
Turf Hokie,

That is awesome! Would you post (or PM) your program on here. I agree that is encouraging!

We seem to be getting dryer around here every every year! :cry:

How long have you been using this program?

Do you think that the minute amounts of organics being added (3#/k per app)can make that much difference between the other lawn?

I guess if TG is treating the lawn beside yours...it still isn't a real fair comparison! :laugh:

Not TG. otherwise it would not have been fair:dizzy:

I will get the program to you ASAP, I just cant figure out how to PM since they changed the format. Any help?

This was the first year I tried the product. I did not back down to 3#/k per app yet. We slowly reduced from 4# down to 3.5 and will start this year at 3.5 and wean down to 3. I will continue to apply the first round at the rate for dimension AI forgoing any recomendations on the fert itself.

turf hokie
01-14-2009, 08:57 AM
Frankly, I'm surprised no one mentioned aspect as a possible reason for the difference.

Are you referencing angle/position of the pic? If you are I have a pic that is 180 degree different just not as crisp a pic that is why I did not post that one.

Real Green
01-14-2009, 09:45 AM
Are you referencing angle/position of the pic? If you are I have a pic that is 180 degree different just not as crisp a pic that is why I did not post that one.

I didn't want to be the first, so I will be the second. What are you referencing Kiril?

ted putnam
01-14-2009, 10:17 AM
I don't deal with cool season turf but I have seen quite a bit of drought stressed turf over the years. I also know that turf that has been accustomed to regular irrigation sometimes shows drought stress much quicker than unirrigated turf especially when that irrigation has been a frequent, shallow schedule. While it's true that the program(irrigation and fertilization) or lack thereof is not known for the turf areas on the left, it is still pretty obvious to me that those areas are drought stressed no matter what angle the picture is taken from. JMO

Kiril
01-14-2009, 10:46 AM
Are you referencing angle/position of the pic? If you are I have a pic that is 180 degree different just not as crisp a pic that is why I did not post that one.

I didn't want to be the first, so I will be the second. What are you referencing Kiril?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspect_(geography)

dishboy
01-14-2009, 11:18 AM
Whats the insect control on the properties...?

turf hokie
01-14-2009, 12:16 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspect_(geography)

I dont think aspect has any bearing here. It is not that big of a slope. I run my z on it without thinking about it. And you also have trees that are obviously shading the left side of the property for some part of the day.

We applied merit in Mid June.

Again it is not a controlled environment and I dont know what was done on the other property. So there are going to be variables. But I know big brown(not UPS) and their SOP. So they probably did not apply any insecticide.

Also, I dont expect this to be a result exclusively to the bridge program. As I readily admit that mowing habits etc play a role. However, I firmly believe that has given us the results we were looking for and that is to hold it's color during the summer on non-irrigated turf, allow us to begin reducing inputs and give a better customer perception of what we do.

This is actually turning out to be a better discussion than I expected when I put the pic up.

Program on this property was as follows
R-1 16-2-3 w/ .15 Dimension @ 4 lbs per k

R-2 16-2-3 fert. at 4 lbs /k
Merit.
Eliminate

R-3 16-2-3 fert at 4 lbs per k
Spot treat with eliminate

R-4 16-2-3 fert at 3.5 lbs per k

Which gave us about 6.25 lbs per k of OM when our target should be about 10 lbs per k And here is the kicker only about 3 lbs of N.

Kiril
01-14-2009, 01:57 PM
I dont think aspect has any bearing here. It is not that big of a slope.

It doesn't have to be that big of a slope to have a significant impact on both macro and micro climates. Also remember, it is not only slope, but direction as well.

What direction is north in your pic?

CHARLES CUE
01-14-2009, 06:58 PM
I dont think aspect has any bearing here. It is not that big of a slope. I run my z on it without thinking about it. And you also have trees that are obviously shading the left side of the property for some part of the day.

We applied merit in Mid June.

Again it is not a controlled environment and I dont know what was done on the other property. So there are going to be variables. But I know big brown(not UPS) and their SOP. So they probably did not apply any insecticide.

Also, I dont expect this to be a result exclusively to the bridge program. As I readily admit that mowing habits etc play a role. However, I firmly believe that has given us the results we were looking for and that is to hold it's color during the summer on non-irrigated turf, allow us to begin reducing inputs and give a better customer perception of what we do.

This is actually turning out to be a better discussion than I expected when I put the pic up.

Program on this property was as follows
R-1 16-2-3 w/ .15 Dimension @ 4 lbs per k

R-2 16-2-3 fert. at 4 lbs /k
Merit.
Eliminate

R-3 16-2-3 fert at 4 lbs per k
Spot treat with eliminate

R-4 16-2-3 fert at 3.5 lbs per k

Which gave us about 6.25 lbs per k of OM when our target should be about 10 lbs per k And here is the kicker only about 3 lbs of N.

Been reading this discussion am interested in this product but turf hokie you figures dont add up if your putting down 3 lbs of N in 4 apps than your putting down over 7 lbs of OM per th or if your putting down 6.25 of OM than your only putting down about 2.4 lbs of N per th according to the label not being picky just interested or set me stright thanks Nice lawn
Charles Cue

CHARLES CUE
01-14-2009, 07:09 PM
Nah, that stuff doesn't work. :)

Thanks for the sample and the quot on price. I dont know what shipping adds to the price but are there any places you can pick it up. hope you dont mind me posting here i thought others may be interested
Charles Cue

NattyLawn
01-14-2009, 07:09 PM
I dont think aspect has any bearing here. It is not that big of a slope. I run my z on it without thinking about it. And you also have trees that are obviously shading the left side of the property for some part of the day.

We applied merit in Mid June.

Again it is not a controlled environment and I dont know what was done on the other property. So there are going to be variables. But I know big brown(not UPS) and their SOP. So they probably did not apply any insecticide.

Also, I dont expect this to be a result exclusively to the bridge program. As I readily admit that mowing habits etc play a role. However, I firmly believe that has given us the results we were looking for and that is to hold it's color during the summer on non-irrigated turf, allow us to begin reducing inputs and give a better customer perception of what we do.

This is actually turning out to be a better discussion than I expected when I put the pic up.

Program on this property was as follows
R-1 16-2-3 w/ .15 Dimension @ 4 lbs per k

R-2 16-2-3 fert. at 4 lbs /k
Merit.
Eliminate

R-3 16-2-3 fert at 4 lbs per k
Spot treat with eliminate

R-4 16-2-3 fert at 3.5 lbs per k

Which gave us about 6.25 lbs per k of OM when our target should be about 10 lbs per k And here is the kicker only about 3 lbs of N.

TH,

Are you using Nutrients Plus 16-2-3? The reason I ask is that the pre-em Nutrients Plus offers is Cavalcade. I saw you posted Dimension...Just wondering.

phasthound
01-14-2009, 07:16 PM
Thanks for the sample and the quot on price. I dont know what shipping adds to the price but are there any places you can pick it up. hope you dont mind me posting here i thought others may be interested
Charles Cue

It is almost always less expensive to direct ship than to pick up.

phasthound
01-14-2009, 07:19 PM
TH,

Are you using Nutrients Plus 16-2-3? The reason I ask is that the pre-em Nutrients Plus offers is Cavalcade. I saw you posted Dimension...Just wondering.

Truckload buyers only.

turf hokie
01-14-2009, 09:05 PM
Truckload buyers only.

Oh I did not realize that it was for truck load only, sorry for the can of worms I opened phasthound.

NattyLawn
01-14-2009, 09:16 PM
Oh I did not realize that it was for truck load only, sorry for the can of worms I opened phasthound.

No can of worms opened. Thanks for the info.

turf hokie
01-14-2009, 09:20 PM
Been reading this discussion am interested in this product but turf hokie you figures dont add up if your putting down 3 lbs of N in 4 apps than your putting down over 7 lbs of OM per th or if your putting down 6.25 of OM than your only putting down about 2.4 lbs of N per th according to the label not being picky just interested or set me stright thanks Nice lawn
Charles Cue

No you're right Charles, when I did the math I did something wrong to get my about 3#N/k number which should have been 2.4 and 6.2 lbs OM. Thanks for the catch.

I also reread one of my answers to Rodney and I do believe he would be right about not seeing a tremendous difference on this 4 step program if you were to back the total product to 3# /K as the label says you can do. I dont think the total OM would be enough to significantly change anything. But if your soil is already rich in OM then I am assuming this would be just fine. But that is part of the reason that we stayed at the 3.5 to 4 lb per k rate. We will play with it as we get a little more comfortable with the product.

I am still learning about organics and this organic based product but so far it has been good to me (and the lawns) that is why I wanted to start this post because I know a lot of you guys are looking into it.

Bryan

turf hokie
01-14-2009, 09:22 PM
Double post , sorry

NEW CITY LAWN CARE LLC
01-14-2009, 10:36 PM
Oh I did not realize that it was for truck load only, sorry for the can of worms I opened phasthound.

Well, Truckload only for the Screamin' Green w/cavalcade, but orders are allowed by the pallet for the product w/o cavalcade, correct barry?
Isn't it roughly $29/50 lb. bag shipped?

CHARLES CUE
01-14-2009, 10:57 PM
No you're right Charles, when I did the math I did something wrong to get my about 3#N/k number which should have been 2.4 and 6.2 lbs OM. Thanks for the catch.

I also reread one of my answers to Rodney and I do believe he would be right about not seeing a tremendous difference on this 4 step program if you were to back the total product to 3# /K as the label says you can do. I dont think the total OM would be enough to significantly change anything. But if your soil is already rich in OM then I am assuming this would be just fine. But that is part of the reason that we stayed at the 3.5 to 4 lb per k rate. We will play with it as we get a little more comfortable with the product.

I am still learning about organics and this organic based product but so far it has been good to me (and the lawns) that is why I wanted to start this post because I know a lot of you guys are looking into it.

Bryan

Well i think you would see a difference over a long time to me it would be like top dressing a little at a time but probably not short term but wouldnt hurt in a lot of yards here no top soil just rock hard clay a little OM here is a start
just wanted to know which one you were doing
Charles Cue