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View Full Version : .10 Dimension vs .375 Barricade


americanlawn
01-13-2009, 05:54 PM
Any preference/advantage/disadvantage? Any cost difference for this year?

We used Barricade in '08, and Dimension in '07. Seems Dimension is at a lower cost for '09.

rscvp, thanks

phasthound
01-13-2009, 06:17 PM
Any preference/advantage/disadvantage? Any cost difference for this year?

We used Barricade in '08, and Dimension in '07. Seems Dimension is at a lower cost for '09.

rscvp, thanks

Is cost your only criteria, what about performance? Which worked best for you?

JDUtah
01-13-2009, 07:09 PM
Is cost your only criteria, what about performance? Which worked best for you?

I think that is what he is asking about?

I say go with the Dimension. You didn't use it last year so the yearly rotation will also agree with IPM.

turf hokie
01-13-2009, 07:37 PM
In our area I have changed away from .10 and gone with .15 due to crabgrass pressure in the area. We were not getting our full AI using split apps at the .10 Dimension.

Also, I have looked into Barricade but found that due to potential late starts due to weather, or rain slowing down our first round. We felt that it was in our best interest to not use Barricade due to it needing to be applied earlier than dimension.

We also have contracts that do not allow us to start until May 1 which is entirely too late for Barricade.

turf hokie
01-13-2009, 07:38 PM
I thought you had already made your decision Larry. Having second thoughts on pulling the trigger?? We will make our decision by Friday...

RigglePLC
01-14-2009, 09:06 AM
Larry, it all depends on rates. Are you using the products as granular at 12,500 sqft per bag, (4 pounds per 1000)? If so the Barricade is at .66 lbs active ingredient per acre (opinion here) and it will last longer. At the above rate, (.17/acre)the post emergent property of the Dimension is insignificant. True, the Barricade is yellow and slightly messy.

DUSTYCEDAR
01-14-2009, 09:19 AM
been using .15 dim splits so far so good

LawnTamer
01-14-2009, 09:34 AM
I have never had good success with Dimension. I get a lot of pressure from warm season weeds as well as crabgrass; spurge, purslane and oxalis are all a big issue for me. I just don't get good control from Dimension, and I don't get the length of control either. At higher rates I easily get 6-7 months out of Prodiamine (Barricade), but no where near that from Dimension.

RigglePLC
01-14-2009, 09:44 AM
Lawntamer,
You are right. And I also hate spurge and oxalis. Although maybe its because I used Dimension last year. But on purslane--try the new carfentrazone or sulfentrazone products. Quicksilver, Dismiss, Speedzone or Surge--they really work as a spot spray on purslane. Turn purslane black in 8 hours.

PSUTURFGEEK
01-14-2009, 11:43 PM
Unless your'e planning on getting like 8,000 sq/bag out of that .10 you may as well just be putting down kitty litter, .10 in most parts of the country are a thing of the past. Split apps with .15 are pretty safe and as far as the barricade goes .37 compared to .10 dimension it's a no brainer unless you are planning on getting out to late and may then have some seeding issues.

whoopassonthebluegrass
01-14-2009, 11:57 PM
Applying in liquid form, last time I did the math nothing compares to Prodiamine as far as price goes. Way cheap and not near the mess of pendamethlin. I've never used Dimension, as LawnTamer warned me away from that one years ago...

Marcos
01-15-2009, 12:45 AM
If you like Dimension on fert and you live here in the midwest, I recommend a split app of .10 or a single app of .15 AI.

I can't recall exactly how many times I've done renovation & seeding work in the late summer/early fall on lawns someone else had previously treated the prior spring with Barricade, only to discover this later by the overall absence of germination... (and by clients' records & receipts!!) :cry::cry::cry:

In reality, IF you run into an impossible drought situation after you've applied prodiamine, and you/they CAN'T water, you're screwed as far a seeding/sodding is concerned for that fall!

On the other hand, if the season goes well rainfall-wise, you're in like Flint.
But that's the risk! :waving:

Barricade works TOO well, if you ask me.
That's why prodiamine should have originally stayed "on the farm", or at least been restrained to landscape use only in the green industry.

grassman177
01-15-2009, 12:23 PM
my first season using barricade we applied a bit too much and very much had seding problems in the fall, must be careful with it, but i did not have bad results with demension as long as i did a split app for full strength rate. i switch up so far about every 4 years or so, so in a couple more years i will go back to demension or try something new if their is promosing new products. i cant wait till they have a pre emergent that is available for cool season grass that will stop nutsedge, that crap is intense here!@!!!

philk17088
01-15-2009, 03:47 PM
single app of .45 barricade down before may 15 and have had excellent results.
per square ft cost is the same as dimension. Save a ton on post emergents too.

americanlawn
01-15-2009, 04:57 PM
Thanks everybody. We ordered our fert w/pre from UAP Dec 31. (Dimenion .10) We've had good luck with both Dimension & Barricade....better than Pre-M. With Dimension, we like to start with balanced fert, then kick in our pre-emergent around April 15 - 20. Timing of heavy rains, drought, & extreme heat also affect annual weed control here no matter which pre-emergent product we use. We'll hope for the best. Our land grant university results show that Dimension .10 offers the same crabgrass control as Barricade .375. They actually buy crabgrass seed and seed many plots to test how different products & formulations work.

BTW, I heard today urea went up $75 per ton. :cry: Thanks again. :waving:

PSUTURFGEEK
01-15-2009, 07:07 PM
single app of .45 barricade down before may 15 and have had excellent results.
per square ft cost is the same as dimension. Save a ton on post emergents too.

I agree totally in this part of Pa barricade/stonewall/cavalcade is the only way to go, the only other option which works out pretty well with this amount of pressure is go Barricade early like a .29 or .43 then come back in with dimension as your'e split app preferrably .12-.15 this way you actually get some post, and cover yourself on the crabgrass end of it also. I do admire the guys who live in parts of the country that can still get away with using .10 as a split app and single applying Dimension .15 those were the days.

Marcos
01-16-2009, 12:39 PM
I do admire the guys who live in parts of the country that can still get away with using .10 as a split app and single applying Dimension .15 those were the days.

It's not necessary just the "part of the country", PSU.

Alot of has to do with the general level of turf density you've managed to accomplish in these lawns.

If your clients' lawns have largely "thickened" as a result of your diligent services you've provided, such as seeding/renovation, aeration, composting or whatnot...and your customers have been trained in the cultural practices of mowing correctly, blade sharpening, watering ettiquette...
..then these lawns are better able to "crowd out" crabgrass & other invaders much better on their own, aren't they?

It's only at this point that one can somewhat lower the least common denominator in the bar of safety, in terms of turf pre emergent A.I. %'s or split app considerations.

YardPro2008
01-20-2009, 01:24 PM
I agree totally in this part of Pa barricade/stonewall/cavalcade is the only way to go, the only other option which works out pretty well with this amount of pressure is go Barricade early like a .29 or .43 then come back in with dimension as your'e split app preferrably .12-.15 this way you actually get some post, and cover yourself on the crabgrass end of it also. I do admire the guys who live in parts of the country that can still get away with using .10 as a split app and single applying Dimension .15 those were the days.

Have u seen the plots at penn state with Dimension vs barricade??

Real Green
01-20-2009, 03:19 PM
It's not necessary just the "part of the country", PSU.

Alot of has to do with the general level of turf density you've managed to accomplish in these lawns.

If your clients' lawns have largely "thickened" as a result of your diligent services you've provided, such as seeding/renovation, aeration, composting or whatnot...and your customers have been trained in the cultural practices of mowing correctly, blade sharpening, watering ettiquette...
..then these lawns are better able to "crowd out" crabgrass & other invaders much better on their own, aren't they?

It's only at this point that one can somewhat lower the least common denominator in the bar of safety, in terms of turf pre emergent A.I. %'s or split app considerations.

You know Marcos, what works for you, does not necessarily work for everyone else. There are many customers in this industry who take on lawn care services, not having the nicest lawn. While everyone attempts to educate those customers as to what the proper cultural practices are in an effort to achieve proper density through an effective lawn care program, it doesn't always happen that way. Every customerís expectations are different and that is why lawns are a lot like human beings. No one lawn is the same and they each may require something different than the other. I do feel that you're response is text book for what the perfect relationship between provider and consumer should be... the majority of experienced professionals knows that is not the case.

PSU has developed a program through his years of experience in his area that will yield the best results for what he knows he will encounter. Do honestly believe that his main goal has nothing to do with achieving a beautiful lawn for each and every customer?

And if you want to get into lowering the bar of safety through scaling back or eliminating pre-emergents, save it. The concept behind this thread was to discuss how the products are working for others.

The Ranger
01-21-2009, 08:50 AM
The rate of Dem for Crab control is .25-.5 AIA. At 200lbs of product per Acre .1% Dem gives you .20lb AIA. Not enough IMHO. We are using a .21% dem which applies .365lb AIA at 175lb acre. We have had failures at the .30lb AIA rate. At 150lb to the acre splits with .15% will give you .23AIA with each app, but the problem is in round #2 usually not enough N to get red thread under control it that is a problem. If you bump the .15% dem up to 200lbs per A you will be applying the Dem @ .30AIA. Hope this helps

Chilehead
01-21-2009, 09:29 AM
If there is a yard that is/has been prone to crabgrass infestations, I use Barricade. I use Dimension more though due to the high amount of poa annua. Dimension is superior when it comes to controlling it.

greendoctor
01-24-2009, 05:12 PM
In my climate, it is impossible to maintain a healthy and dense turf without a very good irrigation system. I made the mistake of taking a few clients without one. In the end, they were upset with me for not giving them a perfectly thick lawn or ground cover area. That is why if I am maintaining a property, I have a say on irrigation scheduling and performance of the system. Refusal to upgrade inadequate controllers, sprinkler heads, etc is grounds for termination. This might seem rigid to you on the continent, but I have a 365 day growing season and less than 20 inches of precipitation. The politically correct landscape would consist of rocks and cactus, not the green grass and flowering tropicals you think of.

rcreech
01-24-2009, 05:25 PM
In my climate, it is impossible to maintain a healthy and dense turf without a very good irrigation system. I made the mistake of taking a few clients without one. In the end, they were upset with me for not giving them a perfectly thick lawn or ground cover area. That is why if I am maintaining a property, I have a say on irrigation scheduling and performance of the system. Refusal to upgrade inadequate controllers, sprinkler heads, etc is grounds for termination. This might seem rigid to you on the continent, but I have a 365 day growing season and less than 20 inches of precipitation. The politically correct landscape would consist of rocks and cactus, not the green grass and flowering tropicals you think of.


I hear ya! Unfortunatly....I have very few customers with irrigation or water for that matter!

We have to deal with it!

I KNOW that a thick lawn is the best weed control, but if you don't have rain, it makes it tough to keep them thick!

I use a PRE on all my lawns and still have crabgrass unfortunatly!

greendoctor
01-24-2009, 05:47 PM
I will be the last one to judge you for doing what you have to do. I run into the opposite situation where poorly drained soil and/or microclimates that are more wet than arid foster nutsedge and kyllinga. Do I get preachy and idealistic? Never, I do what is necessary to manage the problem, Including some very heavy duty herbicides. This is following some practices that I have control over. In addition to irrigation, I will also call in tree trimmers if vegetation shading the lawn is part of the problem. Will not go so far as to dynamite the neighbors two story McMansion built right up to the legal property line, but sometimes I wish..... In your shoes, yep I would be spraying alternate cycles of Dimension and Barricade at max rates. I hate weeds.

Marcos
01-24-2009, 05:58 PM
I can't think of two more polar opposites than turf conditions in Eaton Ohio vs. Honolulu Hawaii :laugh:

greendoctor
01-24-2009, 06:56 PM
One area is temperate, the other is a tropical desert. Point is, I have to deal with some conditions inhospitable to lawns and I could not imagine doing it without herbicides.

rcreech
01-24-2009, 07:42 PM
I can't think of two more polar opposites than turf conditions in Eaton Ohio vs. Honolulu Hawaii :laugh:

Dry turf...is dry turf, no matter what state you are in!

Marcos
01-25-2009, 02:57 PM
I can't think of two more polar opposites than turf conditions in Eaton Ohio vs. Honolulu Hawaii

Dry turf...is dry turf, no matter what state you are in!

Yeah, except that both you and I know that you've got generally clayish soils of limestone/dolomite origins that'll actually HOLD moisture for awhile!

Betcha can't say the same thing about greendoctor's scenario.

Thinking back to my college geology class, the youngest of today's Hawaiian islands sits atop a hot spot in the Earth's mantle, that sort of "bores through" a slowly-moving Pacific tectonic plate.
(You could think of the whole thing as sort of like a stationary "giant cutting torch" blasting through the Earth's crust as it moves.)

So therefore, virtually all the rocks on the Hawaiian islands are originally of volcanic (& possibly plutonic) origin.
And as a result, I'll bet the soil type greendoctor works most with in his business would be of a higher SAND %.
And of course, soils containing high %'s of sand have a much tougher time holding water.

greendoctor
01-26-2009, 12:41 AM
Actually, sand is not very common. On the older islands, most of the soil inland from the coast is red acidic clay. Problems arise when the coral sands from the coast meets the acidic clay inland. The combination is impermeable to water, micronutrients are hard to balance because some elements are extremely deficient and others are at toxic levels. That is why I go all liquids. I can add and subtract micronutrients according to the soil test. In other places, the soil is shrink-swell clay that also has micronutrient issues. I wish it were in all of my client's budget to rip out their entire lawn and landscape to start over. Their "landscaper" brought in red acidic clay into their property. I would prefer to have the plants and grass growing on non-coral sand and compost. No more problems with water penetration and fertilizer lock up. Most granules are locked up if broadcast on red clay. Yet another reason why I use liquids. If I were to go organic, it would have to be on the basis of total replacement of the existing 12" of soil. Spreading compost works for a short time, but you might as well replace the crap the lawn is forced to grow on. I should post some pictures of what I have to deal with.

Marcos
01-26-2009, 11:25 AM
Actually, sand is not very common. On the older islands, most of the soil inland from the coast is red acidic clay. Problems arise when the coral sands from the coast meets the acidic clay inland. The combination is impermeable to water, micronutrients are hard to balance because some elements are extremely deficient and others are at toxic levels. That is why I go all liquids. I can add and subtract micronutrients according to the soil test. In other places, the soil is shrink-swell clay that also has micronutrient issues. I wish it were in all of my client's budget to rip out their entire lawn and landscape to start over. Their "landscaper" brought in red acidic clay into their property. I would prefer to have the plants and grass growing on non-coral sand and compost. No more problems with water penetration and fertilizer lock up. Most granules are locked up if broadcast on red clay. Yet another reason why I use liquids. If I were to go organic, it would have to be on the basis of total replacement of the existing 12" of soil. Spreading compost works for a short time, but you might as well replace the crap the lawn is forced to grow on. I should post some pictures of what I have to deal with.

Hmmm...My mistake then...:hammerhead:
Why don't you send me a one-way plane ticket so I can put more study into this? :clapping:

I suppose the volcanic basalts that make most of your islands' "bedrock" so-to-speak, erode directly into clay. Basalt cool very, very quickly, too quick to have any time to develop any crystalline structure. (Hell! I should have known that! :dizzy:)

Sand-based soils are derived from rocks with much higher silica levels than you have there. The crystals needed time to get larger, to be of "sand" size, so they would have had to have been formed into rocks that cooled very s-l-o-w-l-y well beneath the Earth's surface..... otherwise known as "plutonic" rocks, such as granite.
Sand-based soils can also be derived from ancient beachfronts and riverbeds that were at one time metamorphosed by pressure into rock, and eroded back into some type of soil base over time.

humble1
01-28-2009, 01:06 PM
I was thinking of using pendimethalin for round one because it also gets some broadleafs, then following up with dimension for my 2nd app to get some additional crabgrass control. Last year we had so much rain it pushed the dimension layer down and we had massive crabgrass problems even on accounts where i did 2 apps of dimension.

FERT-TEK
01-29-2009, 06:26 AM
Good information on this topic American, and thanks for the post.

americanlawn
02-02-2009, 06:09 PM
Thanks buddy, but I have another question -- what do ya think--

Round one = 18-0-? w/.10 Dimension at 3 lbs/1000

Round 2 = 18-0-? w/.10 Dimension at 3 lbs/1000.

Is this enough N (upper Midwest Kentucky bluegrass markets) to provide green/healthy lawns in the spring? Our landgrant U recommends as much as 5 pounds of N/1000 sq ft per year on high maintenance turf.

Are 2 apps of .10 Dimension too much? (overkill)

How 'bout delaying pre until 'mid to late April', and then applying just one app of .10 Dimension w/18-0-? at - 4 1/2 lbs per K?

Food for thought. Thanx, rscvp :waving:


Good information on this topic American, and thanks for the post.

AmGreen
02-03-2009, 01:10 AM
As for the original thread subject:
I prefer the .37 (anderson's list it at .38 - guess they rounded up). Used it last year with GREAT success. I don't think I did more than spot treat throughout the summer on any lawn I pre-d.
Getting 5-5-0 with .37 for right at $14 per 50# (Bermuda, Centipede, Zoysia, etc.)
Getting 25-0-6 with .37 for $20 per 50# (Fescue)

How does that price compare with what some of you guys expect to pay?

grassman177
02-03-2009, 07:25 AM
i have done both ways and had the best crab control with prodiamine. we use dimension on late signers at single app rate, .22 i think it is. i never had many problems with pendamethalin back when i started apps, i may switch back someday to avoid resistent crabby problems. hopefully in the next few years when i switch again, there will be a new product to also inclue nutsedge pre emergent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i know there is one that can be used on warm season, but we grow mostly kbg and fescue here so that is no good to me. anyone ever use the pre em designed for warm sesason turf that controls nutsedge??????????????? i forget the name

Whitey4
02-03-2009, 10:23 AM
I used Lebanon .29 Barricade last year in round one. It worked well, but on some previously (unbeknownst to me) infested lawns I got some breakthrough in mid-July. For those properties, this year I will come back with some straight pendi in late June and see how that goes.

I try to sell aeration and over seeding in the fall and I don't think I want to try prodiamine at higher rates.