Commercial Cutters/manufacturer Relationship

[65hoss]

All the discussions about being lowballed and making $xx amount per hour made me start doing some thinking.

Costs are continuing to go up. Cost of living goes up. Business insurance goes up, fuel, parts, trucks, etc are constantly going up. When people ask why should the lawn guy be getting $75-$100 per hour, do they realize how much money we have spent to do those kinds of #'s? Now, this isn't the topic I want to throw out there for you guys. Its just a starting point for my comments.

Have any of you noticed how the prices of mowers have been going up over the last couple of years? Example is my Lazer HP. I bought it new in 2000 for $6700. A year and half later the exact same unit is $7300. I'm not knocking exmark, as many of you know I love that company, but all of them are going up. Its all the companies. If our prices are not able to go up due to market constraints, how can we keep affording to pay higher and higher prices for equipment? Is there not a limit to what we can spend on quality machines, especially if our contraints don't change?

I made this comment to the eXmark distributor about 2 weeks ago. I just flat out said that the prices are constantly going up but most of us are finding that the prices for cutting are staying the same or going down due to market penetration by people that have no clue that their prices are not making them any money. We are the end user. We are the guys buying this stuff. We are the ones putting the equipment to use. We are the ones that keep the manufacturers in business. Without the commercial cutters, they don't have a product. At some point, all manufacturers are going to have to get the point that continuing to inflate prices on us will only hurt the market and themselves in the longrun.

I completely understand that technolgy and materials cost money. I think everyone in this industry (end users and manufacturers) need to understand each others situation. Maybe we as the end users have done a very bad job at keeping the manufacturers educated on our situation. Many of us find that our market pricing is stagnant, so as the cost of machines goes up the profit margin on us goes down. As it affects us more and more, it will eventually eliminate our cash flow to buy more equipment.

To put my money were my mouth is, I am going to email this link to several manufacturers. Not to get a response necessarily, but maybe to help each of us to learn something from the other and eventually make this industry stronger. Hopefully I will not get blackballed for this. :)


Please guys, lets keep this clean.

[MOW ED]

Using the pricing structure of the Exmark (not picking on any one,its just the one you used) I see an 11.1 increase in price. That does seem a bit high but then I would be interested in why they had to raise prices. There seems to be lots of mowers going out the doors and mayby they are trying to hammer the market while it is hot.
Not to get off your topic but I do see 2 bright spots for me this year. Gas prices are 1.17 and my supplier said that fertilizer prices went DOWN. Both offset by insurance raises. Slightly even is better than a loss.

I have been looking at prices of mowers over the past few years also and see the big jump in prices. Is 11% too high? I don't think I could raise my mowing rates 11% every year which leads me to think that mayby they were behind a bit and this might just be a spike to bring them back in line with their costs ( thats the optimistic side of me that seldom is revealed).

Just go to the Tuff Expo in Louisville and you will see that it is BIG business. Lots of overhead but potential for lots of profits. The guys that build the stainless steel mowers have their own jet.

I really think that they were dealing with a relatively small market and wanted to expand. The comparably lower prices of the old days drew people in. I never saw this many guys runnin around with Z's. Now that there are people doing this type of work, there is replacement and expansion. When your biz grows, you need a new mower, when the stuff you have gets old, you need a new mower.
These big companies have lots of bean counters and people that advertise and even project trends on how many mowers they expect to sell. They all have to get paid and unfortunately, we have to pay them.
Great post.

[Richard Martin]

You also need to remember that mowers and other lawn equipment is like anything else. The price will continue to increase as long as demand is great. The dealers will charge what the market will bear. I know that you will counter this with the dealer is hardly making a profit at the high prices and I say bull! I have 2 Dixie Chopper dealers near me. One sells a lot of Choppers but charges more than the smaller dealer who only sells a few. It's the same way with Exmarks. Why can 2 Exmark dealers within 20 miles of one another have a price difference of over $1000 for the same exact machine. And the lower priced dealer is getting ready to move into a much larger, newer facility.

If you want the price of mowers to come down, stop buying them.

[lbmd1]

I think Richard has made a key point regarding pricing from dealers and not from Manufacturers. The manufacturers set the list prices and let the dealer sell them at anything below that (normally). When I last sat down with my dealer in December to purchase 2 more Z Masters, he laughed out loud when looking up the price. I asked why he was laughing. He said yeah right, list price of $9995 for the Z Master I was looking at. He sold them to me for $7195 each. He's a great dealer and offers prices on target of internet pricing. Now another member of the forum contacted me recently looking at a compact Lazer or Z Master. He has 2 Exmark dealers and Toro dealer nearby. All were quoting him around $7400 for a 52" 20hp compact Z. My dealer and online internet dealers were selling the same unit for $5985. Plus he had to pay another $400 in sales tax. That's a difference of over $1400 before tax! The dealers there have little competition, are smaller in size and probably don't sell as many Z's that some of the larger more metopolitan areas dealers do. So I think that the dealer is the one that decides what is percieved as a price increase like Hoss has stated, rather than the manufacturer. I can't speak for sure on whether his increase was based off manufacturer's list, or if that was what the dealer was selling it for. I think the relationship between your dealer and the cutter is one of the strongest links you can make on your bottom line. I have dealer loyalty for the most part because of the way I 've been treated, but if it were a $1400 difference, I'd shop elsewhere.

Mike

[Eng Mwr Guy]

****You also need to remember that mowers and other lawn equipment is like anything else. The price will continue to increase as long as demand is great. The dealers will charge what the market will bear. ****

Amen to that. Richard is 100% correct.

The better question might be: What additional service that a customer will pay for can I provide?

Great dealers demand top prices by providing top service. Great dealers deserve top dollar for equipment they sell. Wouldn't you agree that a high level of service dealer helps you achieve your goals?

Guys: It is a simple formula. Service Level = Rewards received.

If you provide me-too service/equipments whatever you will receive ho-hum profits if any.

I can also tell you most manufacturer's are not making a ton of money. The grass looks greener but that is only because we painted the dirt to look green.

Barry
Ariens/Gravely

[mdb landscaping]

when i was shopping for a ztr last year, i found that dealers prices were very stagnant. i checked about every dealer in my area for exmark lazer z's, and the prices varied quite a bit. i got quoted everything from $8300 to the price i got mine for $7300. i dont know what the cause of such a difference is, but ive been told i got a great deal in my area. it seems out in the midwest mowers are a lot cheaper. i definately agree with the comments made above about prices going up. i understand they have to go up for technology increases, but customers are just not understanding we have costs too. something will break sooner or later.

[Artman]

Keep in mind that at the manufacturer level, costs keep going up, also. Everybody wants to make more money every year, so there is constant pressure to pay workers more. This, of course, raises the cost of the mower. Also, steel, engines, hydros, etc. go up in price every year. Unless, we can find some way to cut costs, i.e. robot welding, laser cutters, etc. we have to raise our price. Also, please note that new products usually come in at a lower price and then once they are around for a while, their prices go up, also. There are two reasons for this: 1. It makes sense to launch a product at an introductory price to attract more attention to it. 2. Every new product can take advantage of newer technologies and thus cut some of the costs. It becomes pretty expensive to take an existing product and constantly revise and hold the costs down.

BUT, this is called capitalism. All this competition has produced some terrific products that are more efficient, more productive, better quality that they were just 5 or 10 years ago. This helps the cutter. Cutters face competition and this forces them to look for ways to keep costs down which in turn helps the customer keep his costs down.

[lawrence stone]

Flat market and high new mower costs are the reason I have not bought a new machine since 1995.

I will keep my old Toro gear drives. They pretty much last forever if you keep up with the driveline maintenance.

Just remember I don't have ANY equipment payments. All that cash you put out year after year for new equipment goes right into my pocket. I also do 90% of my own equipment maintenace and have more parts in stock for these machines than the local toro dealer.

This week I will give proparts.com a call and order $150 (free shipping over $150) worth of Toro parts for stock for this season.
This way there are no trips to the dealer and most time I have the parts to fix the breakage right in the field.

[65hoss]

Originally posted by Richard Martin You also need to remember that mowers and other lawn equipment is like anything else. The price will continue to increase as long as demand is great. The dealers will charge what the market will bear. I know that you will counter this with the dealer is hardly making a profit at the high prices and I say bull!

I agree Richard, that is my point. Price does continue to increase, but the end users don't have the ability to always continue to absorb the costs. Eventually it ends up at the law of diminishing returns. Then what?
I won't argue the point of dealer making good money off the machines. They are probably the ones making the most off them. No research and development costs, no materials and labor to build them.

My point in starting this is to show that with all the costs continuing to rise, but the pricing being stagnant for the most parts, what will be the end result when costs and revenue equal each other? Less work, higher fixed costs. More work, more variable costs.

Does this mean it should be balanced on the manufacturer? No, I don't think so. But they should be aware that its there. But we better all be aware that this is a very real business situation. We should be working together.

This probably should have been in the business section, but I know that too many people here never look at that forum. They never get into the business side of it until its to late. So many people just think, I cut grass. But you must look at it from a business standpoint, just because someone chooses to ignore the business side of things doesn't make it go away.

[crazygator]

HOSS,
Amen brother! I think it mostly boils down to marketing. We have (due to this and other forums) become deeper thinkers with our business. We have the ability to discuss things with others around the state/country/or world. We find things are the same all over. Purchase power is down and our collecting power is down, verses cost of products up, up, up!

Take for instance the questions some have recently posted about the Bladerunner mower. Most think it is a dixie redone. Others like what they see. Is this mower any different? No. But marketing make some think so. How? By selling the speed issue. Commercial mowers know the more you mow the more you collect. So marketing looks at this and see's an open door begging them to enter. So here you offer a mower that can claim to cut at 15mph and transport at 18mph. This does turn a lot of heads. They start thinking how much more they can get done in an hour or day, therefore more money. (Dont get me wrong I am in no way slamming this mower, just using it as an example)

But did this same issue of more money get raised due to the workers/owners (us) thinking "Hmmmm, we need to raise our prices. Others things are increasing so should we."? Absolutely not! Why? Because we have been treated like cattle our whole lives. We live to be pushed and turned by marketing, at least thats what they want us to feel.

With my fathers business several years ago the market got really soft with new machinery (machine shop stuff). Many manufacturer's got scared because they couldnt sell any new machines. Many started stock piling many many machines and had to do something. So they looked at the markets around the world and tried offering lower interest rates for purchases. When this didnt work they tried 0% interest. That didnt work. Lastly they looked at what the used machines were selling for and sold the new ones at that number or below. Now what did that cause the manufacturers to do? Sell at the number to GET the customer, not at the number for the makers.

Therefore we seem to do the same. Sell at the number to "GET" the customer. Maybe our area is overrun with LCO's. Maybe we have too many lowballers. FOr whatever the reason we seem to let the customer deside our rate, not the other way around. But lets not forget, many of us have come from the corporate BS. This just might be the price we have to pay for this freedom from all that crap.

I do feel many think because of the rush of immigrents to our country willing to work for next to nothing has done this to us. Yes it has helped, but we must come together as a group and re-market our (USA) companies and talents to the people that want a better class of workers, Ones that are reliable and trustworthy. Only after we as a group make ourselves and our workers do the best jobs possible could we offer this or market this. We could prove the statement that "Cheaper is better" is wrong. You do get what you pay for!

[Eng Mwr Guy]

I find this interesting.

Dealers are finding it difficult not making money in a lot of ways.

Trust me it is tough all over.

Barry

[Richard Martin]

65 hoss wrote:
........................
I agree Richard, that is my point. Price does continue to increase, but the end users don't have the ability to always continue to absorb the costs. Eventually it ends up at the law of diminishing returns. Then what?
........................

It's called the law of supply and demand. In an area where there is a glut of legitimate LCOs operating you will see 2 things happen. First off you will see the price of equipment go up. Secondly you will see your returns on equipment investment diminish because of increased competition. These 2 factors will increase until something gives and unfortunately it's usually the LCOs that give first.

This can also be the stimulus for increased profits though. As LCOs start to disappear due to operating losses you start to have a shortage of LCOs that are available to satisfy the local lawn servicing demands. As you well know when there is a shortage of something prices go up.

You need to always have a backup plan for everything. If you are a good manager then you may be able to weather the current dilemma that you are apparently experiencing.

[65hoss]

Its not a current dilemma, it is forward looking. Every business owner should be looking into the future.

[awm]

the competition for a piece of the pie is getting rediculous for
dealers.yea their making money ,but not unless their selling units.we are in the same situation. so what really happens is the strong survive. strong ,being well run and managed buisiness preferably with capitol backing.
i kinda believe there may be a weeding out going on right now.
i guess we will just have to see what the future brings. like always,cover your ---. the only thing we can count on for sure is that things will change. who ever handles and makes the best adjustments survives.good luck,we will all need some.later now

[LAWNGODFATHER]

So should they make their prices even steeper to keep the others from getting in this biz?

Gator I think you are on the right track with this one.we must come together as a group and re-market our (USA) companies and talents to the people that want a better class of workers, Ones that are reliable and trustworthy. Only after we as a group make ourselves and our workers do the best jobs possible could we offer this or market this. We could prove the statement that "Cheaper is better" is wrong. You do get what you pay for!

The bigest key to a successfull biz is good marketing.

[GarPA]

If you have any interest in the prices I've been quoted by 2 Pennsylvania dealers only a few miles apart, for an Exmark HP 52, email me. Sizeable difference and the lower priced dealer gives excellent service..I think its a volume thing. My fatherinlaw owned new car dealrships for 20 years. He didn't make much money on new car sales...he made his big big bucks in 2 areas:

Service..and
Used Cars

Might be the same for the larger equipment dealers as well

[crazygator]

The MFG's all complain about having to pay higher wages to employees, material cost and MFG equipment cost going up all the time, yet they are the ones who set the suggested retail price. Ever go to a dealer and he says "Hmmm let me see what percentage I need to make today." No because the MFG sets that price.

So we end up back at the MFG's door on this issue. They will try to blame it on everything else (from the dealers making all the money, to all this over head they have to pay) but how do they establish a price in the first place?

Supply and demand. If we Demand price first, maybe they will listen. Maybe!

[LAWNGODFATHER]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If we Demand price first, maybe they will listen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is something none have thought of.

Think about it this way, we are the end users, we will be the ones to buy more mowers, not the "other guys".

We are the ones to not piss off. We are the ones with forums who have much more ultimate control, because we now have multi media at our finger tips.

[Eng Mwr Guy]

****yet they are the ones who set the suggested retail price. Ever go to a dealer and he says "Hmmm let me see what percentage I {the dealer} need to make today." ****

You just proved the dealer controls the price.

Suggested means suggested.

I know of dealers who sell at wafer thin margins to attempt to make it up on service. Some succeed, some don't.

I blame it on easy barrier to entry for cutting grass, being a dealer, and making mowing equipment for commercial users. I don not see too many manufacturer's, dealers, or grass cutters making a ton of money.

I understand it is easy to blame the "big Company" for all the market's ills. Reality is different than perception though.

How does one set the price - Richard Martin already answered it. When supply grossly outpaces demand the prices go down and Companies consolidate.

If all you do is cut grass (from what I have seen) with no other services generally you ain't gonna make a lot of money. Unless you become a niche player in your market.

Better marketing will help you make more money.

****But did this same issue of more money get raised due to the workers/owners (us) thinking "Hmmmm, we need to raise our prices. Others things are increasing so should we."? Absolutely not! Why? Because we have been treated like cattle our whole lives. We live to be pushed and turned by marketing, at least thats what they want us to feel. ****

I do not know about other MFG's but I can tell you how I feel and most of the people that work at Ariens/Gravely.

I desperately want you to succeed. Without you I have no job to put my 2 kids through school and provide a roof over my family's heads. I want you to learn how to market better. I want you to maintain your equipment better. I want you to charge high enough prices to have a good living for you and your family now as well as putting a little away when you are in your later life to reap the benefit of years of hard work.

I want the dealer to succeed. Without the dealer I can not have my family taken care of. Without the dealer, chances are, you will not succeed either.

So, it is true(although smarmy), we are all connected. Your business success/failure when combined with all of your competitors determines the fate of dealers and Manufacturer's.

In addition, there are whole factories supporting the production of the machines we produce. We all live and die by your ability to stay successfully in a thriving business.

Here is a thought: Your biggest competitor is the $159 push mower purchased at k-mart by a homeowner. How do you get people to use your service instead of doing it themselves? This means it is virtually a limitless market opportunity for you on the marketing end of things. You have to create a customer.

The purpose of business is to create a customer. Peter Drucker, long-time business guru stated that fact and it is as true now as it was 50 years ago.

Just my personal $.02 from a MFG perspective.

Barry

PS
So much for not participating in this forum. :rolleyes:

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Originally posted by Eng Mwr Guy
[BSo much for not participating in this forum. :rolleyes: [/B]

I wish some of the others would come out of "their" forums and add to the discussions as much as you have.

Just couldn't stay away now Barry huh?;)

Without you in this it would be alomst utterly pointless to keep it going.

BTW I am all for jacking the mower prices up to keep compitision down.

Let me add one more thing for now; look at cars and trucks they are "ALWAYS" going up a percentage every year.

Just like us everything goes up on them. Labor, supplies, etc...It's a chain reaction. Something like the price of steel goes up everything else does also.

Just like the fuel increases last 2years. I know i added a sercharge.

[Richard Martin]

LAWNGODFATHER wrote:
...............................
BTW I am all for jacking the mower prices up to keep compitision down.
...............................

Increasing equipment prices won't keep competition down. Your true, long term competitors will be able to easily absorb the cost of equipment price increases. The ones who can't afford the best equipment will only turn to less expensive equipment like LSC mowers.

Equipment purchases are a small portion of the cost of running a LCO. There is a perceived notion that a $10,000 mower is expensive. But if you actually look at how much that mower costs per hour over it's expected lifespan it is very inexpensive.

Take a Dixie Chopper that costs $8,300 and has an expected lifespan of at least 4,000 hours (mine for example). This mower will cost me $2.07 per hour to purchase. My Dixie saw 300 hours last year. It cost me $621.00 last year. This mower made me almost 50 times that. This is of course only valid if you depreciate the mower over the life of the mower.

If you use a 4 year depreciation then you are looking at $6.92 an hour. But after the initial depreciation period is over then the costs are zero except for routine maintenance.

Now the point of this thread was the seemingly ever increasing cost of mowers. If your dealer increases the price of a mower by $300 from one year to the next how much money will that cost you per hour? If you use the 4,000 hour figure it will cost you 7.5 cents more per hour. If you use the 4 year figure then it will cost you 25 cents more per hour.

My company liability insurance cost me more money last year than my Dixie did and the return from that is considerably less than a mower.

It is the right thing to keep equipment costs in check, in fact if you don't then you probably won't make it. But equipment costs are a small part of the increasing costs of doing business.

[lawrence stone]

Originally posted by Richard Martin

It is the right thing to keep equipment costs in check, in fact if you don't then you probably won't make it. But equipment costs are a small part of the increasing costs of doing business. [/B]

Yes let's not just beat up on OPE mfgs when there are all the "other" critters that feed off the "lawnguy".

How about the petrol chemical industry and all it's snake oil salesman lackeys?

Is a bag of Merit on 9%K really worth $50? A gal of Confront $90?
Roundup etc. etc etc.

Should one pound of N be applied on turf at bag rate of the fertilizer?

Then of course there is GM, Ford and Dodge to take away $500+ a month. New enclosed trailer adds another $200. Plus full coverage insurance on a business policy adds another $100/month.

Plus you will need a new state of the art $1.5k Dell puter with another $3k worth of retail boxed software.

Plus of course those new ZTRs and the rest of the goodies bought new.

And then when you take all of the above into consideration some guys just can't figure out why they are not making any money grossing $35 per hour.

[roscioli]

Quote:***Hmmmm, we need to raise our prices. Others things are increasing so should we."? Absolutely not!***\
I am not attacking anyone in particular here, don't get me wrong, but...
PEOPLE: Its called inflation! 3-4% per year! OF course I do not agree with the mower prices going up 10% in a year, but do you think there are really these evil businessmen in offices above the assembly line wondering how they can put the LCO's out of business? Its not a conspiracy, its business. They want to make a profit, the dealers want to make a profit, we want to make a profit. If you dont like it, get out of business, because profit is the name of the game. Every year prices on EVERYTHING go up. Its not to make more profit, its to make the SAME profit. Inflaaaation. The cost of coal goes up, the cost of mowers go up. The cost of cars go up, the cost of mowers go up. The cost of steel goes up, the cost of mowers go up. Some of you are missing the final step in this equation:
The cost of mowers go up, the cost of MOWING goes up. Raise your prices at the level of inflation and their won't be an issue. Tired of paying $10,000 for a mower? Buy a cheaper one. The premium paid is for the premium product recieved.

[Shack]

I love my Exmarks, but I sure would like to hear from the Exmark guy on this subject.

[65hoss]

Originally posted by Shack
I love my Exmarks, but I sure would like to hear from the Exmark guy on this subject.

I did get an email response from one of the guys at eXmark. Here is what it said:


Good report, Let me bring this up at our TM meeting in Beatrice in 2
weeks.

[PWM]

65hoss -

I commend you for starting the discussions on the subject of equipment costs. I think a lot of good points have been made by a number of members.

Our number one goal in designing and producing products for the Contractor is to provide a machine that will make you money. It has to be as productive as possible to save labor costs and it has to be dependable to reduce down time. It also has to give the finished appearance that you and your customer requires.

The Hustler Z and Super Z were designed with these goals in mind. We kept them as simple and serviceable as possible. The result is that we can bring a quality machine to the market at a lower selling price. We have also kept any price increases at or below cost of inflation (last year about 2.5 to 3%).

In my opinion there are two reasons that some manufacturers have increased their prices above inflation or they introduce machines with a high msrp.

1. They have a commanding market share
2. They have a strong brand name

The challange for all of you lies in the art of comparison. Comparison of products, servicing dealers and manufacturers.

If the initial cost is your only concern then your choice won't be too difficult but if you are looking at what is your total cost over time and what the equipment will do for you in maintaining and increasing business, spending more time comparing will pay dividends.

Paul
Hustler Turf Equipment

[mowerconsultant]

Originally posted by PWM


In my opinion there are two reasons that some manufacturers have increased their prices above inflation or they introduce machines with a high msrp.

1. They have a commanding market share
2. They have a strong brand name



My thoughts exactly.........

[roscioli]

Its great to read posts from manufactures for a change, I am impressed. Hustler seems like a great company, I guess I should find out if I have a dealer anywhere near me! I was considering the land-pride unit last year, but the dealer never really wow-ed me if you know what I mean. The commanding market share of a company like eXmark definately enables them to, dare I say, Gouge.
Hoss- Great thread that you started here, this is what lawnsite is all about.

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Originally posted by roscioli
Its great to read posts from manufactures for a change, I am impressed. Hustler seems like a great company, I guess I should find out if I have a dealer anywhere near me! I was considering the land-pride unit last year, but the dealer never really wow-ed me if you know what I mean. The commanding market share of a company like eXmark definately enables them to, dare I say, Gouge.
Hoss- Great thread that you started here, this is what lawnsite is all about.

Don't forget Barry from Gravely he also replied many times!!!!!!!!!

And he is not in the commercial mower division any more.

[Eng Mwr Guy]

I suddenly feel like Rodney Dangerfield:D ;)

Barry
Ariens/Gravely

[roscioli]

Hey Barry! Sorry! Didn't exclude you on purpose, just missed ya in the list. Thanks Lawngodfather for pointing it out, everyone needs recognition for their help, and I am sorry I left someone out, especially someone as active and helpful as Barry!

[65hoss]

Hopefully with everyone reading this thread, and those that got involved in it will be looking into the future of their businesses. Thinking inside the box (I just cut grass) will never grow a strong and profitable business. We all need to be working together for the good of the industry.

We need to continue letting the manufacturers know what we need and want. We need them to understand our business, not just make machines and sell them. We are a partnership. They need us, just as bad as we need them. Its a hand and glove fit.

[ladibugg]

The one issue I have not seen in this thread is homeowners purchasing the Z's. The market is not just pro's buying these machines. One reason the demand is high and the market can hold the high price is because sales are up. Sales are up because homeowners can afford to buy their own big machine. Ask the dealers who is buying more machines, the home owner or the pro. Baby boomers have more money then any generation before them and the spend it on toys. In one sub alone, (less than 100 homes) just a couple of miles from me there are three Z's on 1 acre lots. When I am at any of the dealers (one of my hobbies) there is always a home owner looking to purchase a Z. Look at what happened to the chainsaw quality when more home owners were buying then pro's. The pro line went away and the saws became throw-aways. The purchase power is switching on us and no matter how much the manufacture tells us that they still love us, they will sell more large mowers to home owners this year. And next year instead of a tough machine they will start making a feel-good machine. The economy has been great for everyone. Get all you can, and can all you get.

[Eng Mwr Guy]

Why does a Timecutter exist or a equiv at Hustler?

For the reason of appeasing the homeowner who wants a commercial quality machine (don't look too close at the IZT's though....they go boom real quick w/commercial usage).

I have heard 50-75% of all Z machines go to homeowners.

Barry
Ariens/Gravely

[DAVE13]

You are using one instance of a 10-11% increase. Most manufactures have an increase of 2-3%. LCO's should also be in that range if not higher. You guys are stating every area is raising prices and the lawn industry should follow. It is called inflation. I do not believe Exmark raised their prices 11%.

[UGA]

Sales are up because homeowners can afford to buy their own big machine.

I will argue this point as I am a homeowner that recently had to replace an old Snapper Comet that was fine but not when you're mowing 3 acres. I looked around at new "garden Tractors" as well as commercial mowers and all the commercial were way more than anything I was thinking but I let our local Exmark/Great Dane dealer know that I would be very interested in a used Surfer if one became avialable and sure enough a couple of months after the season a guy was wanting to trade up for a riding ZTR and it cost me $2400 cash for a 22hp 52" Surfer. If people are willing to buy smartly (just like finding a friend that's in the car business to take you to the sale to buy a car) you can save tons of money. Especially if the majority of the work on the mower will be done by you. I don't know if I just got really lucky but it seems like with all these new guys popping up- several aren't going to make it and will need to sell their machines at a greatly reduced price.
Just my 2 cents.