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jimmy1111
01-19-2009, 01:42 PM
Opened a VISTA STT 900 and found the secondary wires from the trans to the 3 breakers in pretty bad shape - corrosion, melted insulation, one wire completely melted.

The wires are 12AWG rated to 600V - I'm assuming low voltage wires. Can I replace them with regular 10AWG also reated for 600 V that I got from home depot as high voltage wires ?? isn't better wire since it is rated for high voltage power versus what vista seem to have installed low voltage wires knowing that on the secondary it is low voltage anyways ???

The other question, what could have caused this mess ?? had the Transformer for 4 years with 270 W at each circuit without any problems. I moved to a new place and and went to 290W for each of the 3 circuits....I know I should have stayed 10% of max capacity...but could this extra 20W on each circuit created this nightmare eventhough i'm still below the 300W threshold and this is a vista not a cheap transformer ??

Thanks.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-19-2009, 10:21 PM
Please tell me that you had more then one 12awg wire to each of the 3 circuits. It sounds as if you loaded 290W onto each of three 12 ga. wires. If this is the case, you have greatly over loaded the wire.

Jimmy... are you a contractor or a DIY'er?

TXNSLighting
01-19-2009, 10:25 PM
Sounds a little fishy, definately need more info and possibly pictures...

LightYourNight
01-20-2009, 12:27 AM
i would call vista a cheap transformer... I replace them all day.

post some pics

Mike M
01-20-2009, 02:12 AM
Does sound fishy.

Anywho, you measure the amps with a probe, don't worry about the watts, sounds like the load on the trans, and each wire, is over amped.

No mention of voltage taps. Bad grammar. It might be the bad grammar.

David Gretzmier
01-20-2009, 04:40 AM
when wires melt, something is over amped, and probably the wires. 600v is rated for high voltage, but wires are rated by the amps they can hold at any voltage within thier range. 290 watts at 12 volts is actually 24 amps, and you need 8 guage to be safe from the trans to a close hub of at least 3 12 guage wires for EACH 290 watt run. most folks just run multiple 10-12 guage wire, loaded properly, into the trans and put multiple wire on the same tap.

I could go into what load those 12 guage lines could hold, but we've discussed it tons of times and I won't rehash it here, other than to say that a single 12 guage won't handle a 270 watt 12 volt load any day of the week.

jimmy1111
01-20-2009, 07:49 AM
well I didn't want to write a page in my first question so here is more details....2 of the three circuits are ran with 12 AWG Loops. so it is 2 12 AWG at each tap for these two circuits. The third circuit got also 2 12AWG wires running split in two sepearte directions. The STT 900 is a Multitap Transformer for 11, 12 & 13 Volts that VISTA stop making. The 13 V tap is the one that melted than i switched it to another circuit and that one started to get corroded and melting.

Is the rated amps of a wire labeled on the wires ? vista installed like 3 inch or so of these wires inside the transformer and I can't see the full label. I saw the 600 V. Is the low voltage wire capable of holding more amps than the same AWG of a High Voltage wire?

The other question i had was corrossion ? is it when the wires melt they get corroded or is it water / humidity creating the corrosion?...I can't see how the water goes in a VISTA stanless steel transformer.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-20-2009, 08:15 AM
Dude, you have overloaded the 12 gauge wire, pure and simple. I would suggest hiring a professional or at the very least taking a LV lighting installation seminar.

Regards.

jimmy1111
01-20-2009, 11:35 AM
well...how much Amps a 12 AWG cable can hold ? isn't supposed to be written on the cable because I don't see it. Also; would having loops of 12 AWG is actually doubling the 7500 Cable Constant for the 12AWG cable, or in other words is it equivalent to say that I have the same load on 2 12AWG Wires? This is one part of the issue.

The second part which i don't seem to receive comments on but Dave got close is: Can a High Voltage 10 AWG wire be a substitute of a 12 AWG Low Voltage Wire that's inside the Transformer secondary side which is from the coil to the 25 Amp Breakers and than from the 3 Breakers to each Taps? If I overloaded why the 25 Amp breakers didn't trip ?

TXNSLighting
01-20-2009, 12:08 PM
Man, you really need to hire a professional to fix this mess.

steveparrott
01-20-2009, 04:32 PM
Burned wires inside the transformer are most often caused by poor connections at the terminal block. The terminal block set screws can become loose or the contacts become corroded - both cases can cause arcing in the terminal block. This arcing generates enough heat to burn the wires inside the transformer. If the breakers (that control the commons are not tripping then the cause is not overloading, it is arcing in the terminal block.

You can try cleaning the contacts in the terminal block with a file and re-stripping the wires, but if the PVC in the terminal blocks is already burned then you need to replace the blocks. If the wire insulation has become brittle then you need to replace the wire.

David Gretzmier
01-20-2009, 04:38 PM
trying to be helpful here. go to the FXl.com website and look at thier learning section on voltage drop for installers. It will tell you what load you can put on 12 guage wire at different lengths and tell you voltage drop volts. I really doubt 2 12 guages can handle the 290 watt loads unless the lights are fairly close ( 60 feet or less).

I think you need 8 guage inside unit to handle a 25 amp load.

I also think you need a professional to solve this problem for you. think fire. think property damage. Think of it as an insurance policy that it was done right and safe.

jimmy1111
01-20-2009, 05:43 PM
Burned wires inside the transformer are most often caused by poor connections at the terminal block. The terminal block set screws can become loose or the contacts become corroded - both cases can cause arcing in the terminal block. This arcing generates enough heat to burn the wires inside the transformer. If the breakers (that control the commons are not tripping then the cause is not overloading, it is arcing in the terminal block.

You can try cleaning the contacts in the terminal block with a file and re-stripping the wires, but if the PVC in the terminal blocks is already burned then you need to replace the blocks. If the wire insulation has become brittle then you need to replace the wire.



Steve;
I think you hit the nail on his head..my point exactly about the 25 amp not tripping....the pvc block assuming is where the taps are located are not melted... just wires inside the Transformer from and to the 25 Amp breakers...checked the screws and they were pretty much tight and hard to unscrew actually....connectors were also tight on the 3 breakers but had some black/gray discoloration instead of the silver...the wires that VISTA installed is 12 AWG about 3 inches or so and i'm not able to read its full rating. can i replace them with a 10 AWG High Voltage wire instead of what VISTA might have installed these crappy 12 AWG Low Voltage wires..from what I can read that 12 AWG wires are normally rated for 20 Amps and 10 AWG are rated for 30 Amps. Is that the same for High Voltage and Low Voltage wires

Not doubting that i need to drop the load on each circuit for lesser voltage drop but voltage drop is not my problem. I'm planning on reconfiguring my layout anyways for 250W on each circuit somehow someway since the 12 AWG loop installation is not easily replacable...it is inside brick pilars..... i'm stuck with it unless the "Professional" that i might hire might be smart enough to tell me that he needs to rip-out my brick pilars to replace the wires.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-20-2009, 05:58 PM
"If the breakers (that control the commons are not tripping then the cause is not overloading, it is arcing in the terminal block."


Steve I am a bit surprised at your response. You most certainly can overload the 12 ga. wire and not overload the 25A breakers on the secondary side of the transformer. That is basic stuff my friend. Check your ampacity tables... most will show that 12ga. is rated for a max load of 20Amps. I personally would never want more then 16amps on any given 12Ga. circuit, but that is just me.

This sounds like a bit of a basket case installation if you ask me. And the contributor has still not indicated if he is a contractor or a DIY'er. I really encourage him to call a professional.

Regards.

klkanders
01-20-2009, 08:15 PM
I read and re-read these posts. Are you calling the tap blocks breakers? If the wires on the top side of the tap blocks are melted you would void any kind of warranty on this trans. by messing with them I believe. A pic and or a diagram would be essential for any further help.

Eden Lights
01-20-2009, 10:34 PM
i would call vista a cheap transformer... I replace them all day.

post some pics

Yeah, post some pics of those bad transformers?

jimmy1111
01-20-2009, 11:10 PM
Here are 2 pics of the fried wires. Please note the burns on the female connector which goes into the 25 Amp Carlingswitch 25 Amp breakers inside the Transformer. Again this is inside the STT 900 Multitap Transformer. These wires are 12 AWG Style AWM 105 degrees Celsius 600V VM-1 that VISTA installed from the taps with the ring connector to the breakers on the female connector side of the wire, then other 3 same type wires from the breakers to the coil.

If I really overloaded my circuits with my installation of the 12 AWG Loop cables with the equal 270 W on each circuit for the first 5 years and the equal 290 W for the last 2 years why installing an 8 AWG or even 6 AWG outside underground cables would make the difference if VISTA's factory wire inside the Trans. are 12 AWG wires ??? it seems to me no mater how fat the gage installed outside the Transformer the amps still have to go through these factory installed 12 AWG wires inside the Transformer from the taps to the breakers and from the breakers to the coil....knowing that the breakers didn't trip which means to me that my load is still below the 25 amps however the wries got that they installed ...NOT ME...got fried.

It seems to me that either the breakers should have been maybe 20 A or the wires they installed inside the transformer should have been at least 10 AWG....am i wrong or VISTA maybe already figured that out when they discontinued the STT 900's ??? or maybe one of you guys can open one of these new VISTA to see if they are still installing 12 AWG wires inside.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-20-2009, 11:16 PM
Jimmy, my apologies. I thought we were discussing 12ga, secondary circuit wires, not internal components of the transformer. This is a perfect example of why pictures are worth thousands of words.

I would expect that VISTA will fully cover the problems. They certainly SHOULD! That scenario should not happen at all. I would contact the factory directly with the photos and info and see how (if) they take care of you.

Please keep us all in the loop as to what type of customer care you receive on this issue.

Lite4
01-21-2009, 12:31 AM
I am sure the Vista rep will just replace your item. Mine has been absolutely golden about warranty items.

jimmy1111
01-21-2009, 07:42 AM
My problem is i opened the trans and have the wires out...they had one screw and one welded spot which is odd that was holding the internal chasis in place...so most likely they will know i opened it not sure if the warranty will still be valid...anyways does vista have lifetime warranty on their stainless steel transformers or just 5 years ?

Also; the wires from the coil to the breakers are the same 12 AWG Wires. How the heck they are going to replace them,...change the coil ???..the other odd thing the coil still loook brand new after 7 years...it is just these damn 12 AWG wires.

I'm a DYI's for those who wondered in this forum...not sure how the warranty would work for me specially John Deere store that i bought it from closed.

JoeyD
01-21-2009, 10:40 AM
If you cracked the case I know it would void our warranty. But ours are riveted shut. Some manufacturers prefer to just screw theirs closed. If the wires to the core are charred then the core is shot. It may still work but I know we would throw it away. The core itself should never go bad unless it burns up.

BUt I would concur with Steve....Meltdowns occur 99% of the time due to BAD CONNECTIONS producing Arching!!!

jimmy1111
01-21-2009, 11:32 AM
Joe Thanks. Mine had one riveted / or spot welded seemed like sodder but soft silver color and one screw that was holding it in place - just odd why they had 2 types in the back. The others on the side top portion seemed to have snapped with the shipping and handling 7 years ago.

what did you mean by cracked the case. Does that mean break the spot welds / rivets ?

Also; 2 wires in the previous Picture that are bad were from the core to the breakers. I'm assuming you mean by the core the same as the others refer to it as coil.

Can i just splice these darn cables and be done with it since my warranty is most likely voided anyways ? Also what gage of wires Unique uses inside your Transformers on the secondary side?

David Gretzmier
01-21-2009, 01:58 PM
wires melt because of overloading, or arc-ing because of a bad connection. if you want to use 10 guage and replace these wires, and really cinch down the connections, go for it. make sure you mount this trans on a nonflammable post far enough from your house so as to not cause a fire to your home.

"cracking the case" is opening it to the coil. once you open it, the manu has no idea if the problem was caused by them or by the person opening the case, as they have no way of knowing whether the problem was caused before or after the case was opened.

for me, when I have this kind of a problem with a trans, I replace the trans. and I am mr handyman when it comes to fixing things. I am also mr. "I don't want to burn someone's house down because I THOUGHT I could fix a trans". .

I also firmly believe that a 12 guage "loop" cannot handle a 270,290 watt load. Your melted wires may have been a problem inside the trans, but you've got other things going on there that make alarm bells go off in my head.

jimmy1111
01-21-2009, 03:31 PM
I also firmly believe that a 12 guage "loop" cannot handle a 270,290 watt load. Your melted wires may have been a problem inside the trans, but you've got other things going on there that make alarm bells go off in my head.

Dave thanks for the FXL Reference helpfull but doesn't show loop installation's impact.

Isn't installing Loop wires like cutting the load in half at the tap ? in other words isn't 270 W circuit with loop installation equates to about 135 W on each leg and 10.4 amps at the 13 V Tap ? again this is just approximate numbers since it is dependant on which side of the loop that has the most load.

If the answer is a "NO" Than all I have to do is to cut the loop in 2 equal loads ?

SamIV
01-21-2009, 05:53 PM
Theoredically if you loop correctly with 12 gauge wire, this will bring you up to a 10 gauge wire. So if you are correct in saying you have 290 watts of lamps on this loop not accounting for loss due to the wire itself, you are at 80% of the rating of a 10 gauge wire or 24 amps. This scenario does sound like bad connections.

You have to realize that you are pushing these runs to their limit and drawing max current.

irrig8r
01-21-2009, 06:01 PM
Jimmy, contact the Vista rep for your area.

http://www.vistapro.com/sales_region.aspx?stt=PA&typ=3


Also, I don't know PA geography, but there is a free basic lighting seminar at John Deere in Lebanon on 2/20 according to the Vista website.

http://www.vistapro.com/seminarlookup.aspx

John Deere Landscapes
15 E Lehman St, Lebanon, PA
from 10:30 am to 2:00 pm

JoeyD
01-22-2009, 09:34 AM
Joe Thanks. Mine had one riveted / or spot welded seemed like sodder but soft silver color and one screw that was holding it in place - just odd why they had 2 types in the back. The others on the side top portion seemed to have snapped with the shipping and handling 7 years ago.

what did you mean by cracked the case. Does that mean break the spot welds / rivets ?

Also; 2 wires in the previous Picture that are bad were from the core to the breakers. I'm assuming you mean by the core the same as the others refer to it as coil.

Can i just splice these darn cables and be done with it since my warranty is most likely voided anyways ? Also what gage of wires Unique uses inside your Transformers on the secondary side?


you need to return that unit or buy another. I would not try and put a band aid on a unit that obviously has some issues...this time it was a simple internal failure, next time could be a blackened wall! Just get a fresh unit up on the wall and start clean! That would be my advice! I know if that unit was made by me I would warranty it with no questions asked!!!

JoeyD
01-22-2009, 09:39 AM
Understand that it is rare that wire will melt down due to overload.......amps create heat, not watts.......it takes quite a bit of amps to melt cable, like Steve said and I agree, majority of all melt downs occur from a faulty or loose connection. Wire your system up and test your amperage loads. You should be running no more than 16amps on your 12ga. No more than 24amps on your 10ga. Simple as that. Your amp meter will tell you everything you need to know. Its not hard to calculate your VD...

amps (watts/12) X Resistance (12ga=.00162 10ga=.00108) X wire length X 2 (A/C)

amps X Resistance X Wire Length X 2 = VD

jimmy1111
01-23-2009, 07:39 AM
I got a Voltmeter wich also measures the Resistance R. R=Volts/Amps...I guess i can get my Amps that way and I'm planning on doing that tomorrow Sat. and will post the numbers.

Shall I measure the Amps on each fixture? or at the first fixture only, or the last fixture in the run ?..maybe also at the Taps ? which location usually get the highest amp reading ? or the amps usually is the same on a constant run length when loaded?

Also I found an article that says installing Loop Runs will cut your Run Length in half...is that true ? or as Sam Said looping a 12 AWG is theoratically equivalent to have a 10 AWG wires ?
Thanks.

Chris J
01-23-2009, 07:52 AM
You need to measure your amps at the transformer. Test each individual run right at the terminal blocks. Testing the amps at the fixtures will give you some information, but you need to know the total load being placed on the wire and the trans. If you have several runs coming out of the same circuit, you need to also test all of these at the same time. Place your clamp meter around every wire (at one time) coming out of each common.

jimmy1111
01-23-2009, 01:09 PM
You need to measure your amps at the transformer. Test each individual run right at the terminal blocks. Testing the amps at the fixtures will give you some information, but you need to know the total load being placed on the wire and the trans. If you have several runs coming out of the same circuit, you need to also test all of these at the same time. Place your clamp meter around every wire (at one time) coming out of each common.

Hopefully most of the ice and snow melts today with the 40 degress temp we are having to get this done tomorrow - after work is too dark. I guessed that the Maximum Amp will be at the taps but wanted to make sure.

Chris: For the Loop Runs do you mean that I should measure each one wire of the 2 wires - at the Block - that connect to the same Tap under full Load ? Can I just clamp the meter on the tap screws that hold the 2 wires since they are Loop Runs ? The reason i'm asking is that I don't leave bare wire exposed outside the connectors at the taps - but if I have to pull them out a bit I will.

Also; any information on Loop Runs advantages besides reducing - Voltage Drops - will be appreciated. Some people say Loop Runs cut the Run Length in half....some others say Loop Runs will drop your cable AWG by one if done properly.

jimmy1111
01-26-2009, 12:56 PM
Ok Boys here is what I've done this Weekend...

Replaced the burned-up 12 AWG wires inside the Transformer that VISTA installed with 10 AWG Wires that I got from Home Depot - $1.38. New Connectors crimped like hell. Tested Transformer and all 3 circuits working perfectly with the measurments as listed in the attached file and a Primary Feed of about 122.4VAC. Eventhough I fixed the wires inside...I placed a call to VISTA to have them look it up and make sure nothing else is screwed up in the core. Also I took out the Light Bulbs from the fixtures on one side of the Walkway Path to reduce my loads in each circuit. Now I have 170, 270 & 250 Loads, and when the weather get little better outside i'm planning on get my circuits loaded at 263, 270, 253 for Circuits 1, 2 & 3 respectively.

BIG SURPRIZE with Looping Runs - From the Trans to a light fixture 100 ft. away than back another 100 ft. and bunch of fixtures on each leg of the loop for Circuit 3. Unbeleivable 1.7 VD for 250 W and 2.10 VD on a 290 W Load !!!!...for those of you guys who critized the heck out of me...like a DYI's that doesn't know what am I doing. I'm planning on reconfiguring my layout for 253, 263 & 270 Watters Instead of the 290 Watters on each Circuit that I had.

Also; Looping the 12 AWG seem to be equating to a fater cable that an 8 AWG...It is unfortunate that no-one seem to have the scientific formula for Looping Wires and their effect...based on the measurments of my test it seems that if you loop your runs your Load drops to about one third for calculating VD's and to half for ampicity if you equaly load each leg of the loop....anybody had similar results or have that scientific formula for looping versus splitting your runs ??

tonyGub
01-26-2009, 05:17 PM
Ok Boys here is what I've done this Weekend...

BIG SURPRIZE with Looping Runs - From the Trans to a light fixture 100 ft. away than back another 100 ft. and bunch of fixtures on each leg of the loop for Circuit 3. Unbeleivable 1.7 VD for 250 W and 2.10 VD on a 290 W Load !!!!...for those of you guys who critized the heck out of me...like a DYI's that doesn't know what am I doing. I'm planning on reconfiguring my layout for 253, 263 & 270 Watters Instead of the 290 Watters on each Circuit that I had.

Also; Looping the 12 AWG seem to be equating to a fater cable that an 8 AWG...It is unfortunate that no-one seem to have the scientific formula for Looping Wires and their effect...based on the measurments of my test it seems that if you loop your runs your Load drops to about one third for calculating VD's and to half for ampicity if you equaly load each leg of the loop....anybody had similar results or have that scientific formula for looping versus splitting your runs ??

What do you mean by loop. There are many different wiring methods. All circuits make a "loop"; and Joey did post the formula for calculating voltage drop.
Not following you here but I am pretty sure your research did not yield any groundbreaking info.

jimmy1111
01-26-2009, 05:43 PM
What I meant by Loop is coming out from the Trans with a 12/2 to the load out there...than coming back with that same 12/2 to the Trans...in other words at COM tap you will have the begining and end of one of the 12/2 cable; and on the Voltage Tap you will also have the start and end of the second hot wire of the 12/2 cable...you have to be carefull not to cross them over.

The standard formula for VD that Joey D also wrote is for runing Split Runs or T Runs from the Trans....not looping back with voltage feeding from both ends of the cable...I agree Looing is not ground breaking instalation since it is all over the installation instructions.....but the VD amount on 12AWG, 290W and 100 ft. long run ..seem to be groundbreaking if you look at all Cable AWG's Charts for that Load and that distance of a run.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-26-2009, 05:52 PM
Jimmy, by what you describe you are just running paired 12/2 runs, basically using up 2x the necessary wire. Parrallel circuits are also frowned upon by the NEC. Essentially you have the the load capacity of 8Ga. wire out there that is why you are experiencing such low VD numbers. It works, but is a an expensive alternative to properly engineering the system and using the right size of wire for the job.

Chris J
01-26-2009, 07:38 PM
But hey, wire is cheep, right? If you want to use twice the amount of wire, then go ahead. To answer your question above, you need to clamp the meter around both wires coming out of the common (to measure that run) and all the wires coming out of the common to test the entire circuit. 25 amps max per circuit (in most tranny's) and no more than 16 amps per 12/2 run (80% of the 20 amp maximum per NEC).

jimmy1111
01-26-2009, 09:42 PM
James: How else can you run a loop..this is what VISTA had in their installation instructions for years as one of three methods to install your runs, first is Straight Runs, second is Loop, third is Split or others calls it "T". Check Page 3 of the attached file for the Loop. I'm not sure which NEC frowness is being referred to...but if what you said is true; VISTA should loose their license based on what they recommend in the attached file to reduce VD's....that's a lawsuit for you to pursue with them....I have no interest to suing them yet till they refuse to repair my darn Transformer.

I agree with Chris about the cost ...it is peanuts and i'm not sure really if there is a saving for using single 8/2 AWG versus twice 12/2 AWG....that's IF Looping your runs IS EQUIVALENT TO A SINGLE 8 AWG RUN...But my VD on Looping my runs is showing a better result than using single 8AWG...Were you able to open my .pdf file to see the amps ?...I measured what you said...each single wire at each tap then clamped arround all wires that comes out of each tap to verify that they add-up correctly... they did and each wire is still way below the 80% rule..which made me happy.

The key question is how to determine the VD on a certain gage wire when it is Looped back to the Trans....based on my test measurments Looping my runs is giving me an equivalent VD of third of the load if I run single 12/2 out to the same distance...it also shows better results than runing single 8/2 AWG eventhough the number of strands are equal (i.e. 133 Strands in 8AWG is almost the same as putting twice 65 Strands that a 12 AWG has) the difference is that i'm feeding currents on each end of the run with a Loop. There is certainly an advantage to feed the current from both end of the wire... but what is the Rule's quantitative gain or the formula for this.....

tonyGub
01-26-2009, 10:47 PM
James: How else can you run a loop..this is what VISTA had in their installation instructions for years as one of three methods to install your runs, first is Straight Runs, second is Loop, third is Split or others calls it "T". Check Page 3 of the attached file for the Loop. I'm not sure which NEC frowness is being referred to...but if what you said is true; VISTA should loose their license based on what they recommend in the attached file to reduce VD's....that's a lawsuit for you to pursue with them....I have no interest to suing them yet till they refuse to repair my darn Transformer.

I agree with Chris about the cost ...it is peanuts and i'm not sure really if there is a saving for using single 8/2 AWG versus twice 12/2 AWG....that's IF Looping your runs IS EQUIVALENT TO A SINGLE 8 AWG RUN...But my VD on Looping my runs is showing a better result than using single 8AWG...Were you able to open my .pdf file to see the amps ?...I measured what you said...each single wire at each tap then clamped arround all wires that comes out of each tap to verify that they add-up correctly... they did and each wire is still way below the 80% rule..which made me happy.

The key question is how to determine the VD on a certain gage wire when it is Looped back to the Trans....based on my test measurments Looping my runs is giving me an equivalent VD of third of the load if I run single 12/2 out to the same distance...it also shows better results than runing single 8/2 AWG eventhough the number of strands are equal (i.e. 133 Strands in 8AWG is almost the same as putting twice 65 Strands that a 12 AWG has) the difference is that i'm feeding currents on each end of the run with a Loop. There is certainly an advantage to feed the current from both end of the wire... but what is the Rule's quantitative gain or the formula for this.....

you have way to much time on your hands. your a DIYer what a load of crap.
Sales at Lightcraft must be way down cause you have too much time on your hands to experiment with antiquated wiring methods.

TXNSLighting
01-26-2009, 11:26 PM
I knew i hated Vista. Look we are the professionals, we know what were doing, and we know the correct way to install these lighting systems. You are wasting so much wire the way youre doing it.

jimmy1111
01-27-2009, 07:23 AM
Hey...I like tinkering with things till they are fixed...I'm not your regular DIY's...based on the way some of you guys here scared the **** out of me that i'm overloading and tought me how to really find the answer to that...I followed your recommendations and got those readings. It seemed that the concesus was and now proven that my fried wires were due to bad connections as some guys hit the nail on the head as soon as they saw the pictures. I still wanted to verify the amps on each single wire to make sure they are in good shape.

As far as lightcraft ....a hell with their crap....as I said in Dave's Forum because of my problem here with my current Trans....I started looking to buy a new one whith a lesson learned from this $650 Trans that I paid for about 7 years ago and i saw this ligthcraft for almost $200 and asked the question here if anyone ever tried it to see if i'll buy one......hell i was even thinking to buy Dave's Ryco for the experience he is having with them for almost 1 or 2 years - I think by now.

As far as too much wire...a 100 ft. 8/2 AWG is $6.00 dollars more that buying 200 ft. 12/2 AWG to double them for the same run...it is peanuts but on the lesser side...I'm not criticizing you guys and the way you install your runs...but am I the only one here who installed Loop runs ??? or even tested VD on Loop runs ???

JoeyD
01-27-2009, 09:35 AM
your running 2 current carrying, conducting cables in Parallel.....If you werent a DIY'er I would spend the time to find in the NEC where it says what your doing is not safe. But since you are I am glad it worked for you, wire a 100 light job and tell me how easy it is to put all your wires into a transformer and conduit.............You didnt stumble upon the holy grail of wiring...you just stumbled upon the least effecient and most cable comsuming way..........

irrig8r
01-27-2009, 10:44 AM
I don't even understand why you guys are continuing to talk to Jimmy. He's going in with some preconceived notions that are getting him into trouble.

He's a perfect example of how "a little knowledge is dangerous".

BTW Jimmy, I gave you info on how to contact Vista and even where there a class is going to be held, and you seem to have ignored it.

You're a guy who thinks he knows better than owner's manuals and standard ways of doing things.

Reminds me of some of my more meddling customers (former Silicon Valley electrical engineers who have a lot more book knowledge than hands-on experience, resulting in crazy "outside-the-box" solutions and non-code compliant reinventions of everyday stuff)

BTW, did you even read a manual for your multimeter and how to use the amp clamp? You don't need to make contact with screws or bare wires...

Nice table though...

jimmy1111
01-27-2009, 12:43 PM
Geesh guys...is this site always hostile like this ????...I read and re-read other Forums on this site and there is always somebody attacking somebody else. Here I'm the guy to be attacked...and every question I ask is taken like I’m attacking somebody.

I'm not attacking anyone here...thus you guys keeping hammering the heck out of me...just because I don't do this for a living...when I told you about my loads....bunch of you said it was OVERLOAD and I don't know what am I doing.....when I measured the amps that showed pretty darn good ampicity for the load I need.....Now I have too little of knowledge that is TOO DANGEROUS even though it is listed in the Trans. installation instructions, AND I got 2.1 VD with a 290 W load on a 100 ft. run...Now I'm wasting too much wires because I got a lower VD than an 8AWG would give you for the same load and same length of run. I don't see the unsafety in running loops unless you cross-over the wires connecting them back to the same tap....but even with that your secondary Trans. breaker will trip...as it was design to protect the system from short-circuits and overloading.

I agree with JoeyD...maybe on big jobs when you have tons of wires to deal with there might not be enough room at the lugs to tap them all in...I guess that depends on how often you guys get these size jobs....but I don't disagree on its practicalities again when you have too many wires.

Think about it the other way...You might not need a 22V Multi Tap Trans. if you Loop your runs as often as you need them when the runs are just separate.... I know that for huge runs you would still need a 22V Tap....but not on average jobs.

BTW.....I did call VISTA and did not ignore your advice.....and they were pretty good ....MY STT900 is discontinued and can't get a replacement since it is over 5 years old but they said they will get it repaired and hardly ever they can't get a Trans fixed...I got mine fixed myself now but still will be sending it to VISTA for them to put their 2 cents in case in the future other problems come-up.....my next thing with them is to show it to my local rep and have him see the fried 12 AWG wires that I replaced inside the Trans with 10 AWG. They said it shouldn't be an issue that would void my warranty.

As far as reading the Manual of my Multimeter..I tried to get the Ohms on the wires...and that requires contact with the wires/screws my friend....but I found out that my darn Multimeter was not given me consistent readings.....so I bought a new Multimeter that measures everything including the amps this time and got my amps readings directly from the unit instead of going around a circle to get the amps by dividing V/R...BTW there Seminar here is about 100 miles away from where I am...thanks for the info....I'll keep my eyes open till one is given closer to me.

Again as I said before...WITHOUT ATTACKING ANYONE...just asking a simple question on how you calculate VD's when you loop your runs...

JoeyD
01-27-2009, 01:03 PM
For the record not everyone has attacked you, I know I didnt.......

Not sure what your time is worth but with all the time you spent here, obviously on other sites, repairing a discontinued outdated faulty transformer, paying double for each run in wire costs, Making additional connections, and burrying additional cable, and then the other misc. costs dont you think it would have been cheaper and quicker to replace the trans with a Life Time warranted 22v unit and been done with it?

TXNSLighting
01-27-2009, 01:47 PM
For the record not everyone has attacked you, I know I didnt.......

Not sure what your time is worth but with all the time you spent here, obviously on other sites, repairing a discontinued outdated faulty transformer, paying double for each run in wire costs, Making additional connections, and burrying additional cable, and then the other misc. costs dont you think it would have been cheaper and quicker to replace the trans with a Life Time warranted 22v unit and been done with it?

I dont think hes going to understand Mr.D... I think im going to start calling you that, ha!

Chris J
01-27-2009, 04:04 PM
.....my next thing with them is to show it to my local rep and have him see the fried 12 AWG wires that I replaced inside the Trans with 10 AWG. They said it shouldn't be an issue that would void my warranty.
.

Since when does a DIY'er have a local rep? You'd probably have more future success on this forum if you would just come clean. As I see it, you are digging yourself a hole and no one will want to help you in the future. But then again, once you get your DIY project wrapped up, we probably won't hear from you again, huh?

TXNSLighting
01-27-2009, 04:44 PM
Dead on Chris! :clapping:

jimmy1111
01-27-2009, 05:24 PM
Here we go again...attacks than more attacks by Chris and Ryan...first I was told I'm a Lighcraft Rep when I asked how their Trans. perform.....than when I called VISTA Local Rep.....as Gregg suggested here about my Transformer Problem....now I'm called a VISTA Rep....what's next...if I call Dave's Ryco's people Trans. and share with you guys here what they tell me I'm going to be called Ryco's Rep too ???

Maybe that's the technique not to answer VD's on Loop Runs question by kicking the ball in the outfield somewhere...or maybe next I'll be called the Loop Runs's Rep !!!

jimmy1111
01-27-2009, 05:45 PM
For the record not everyone has attacked you, I know I didnt.......

Not sure what your time is worth but with all the time you spent here, obviously on other sites, repairing a discontinued outdated faulty transformer, paying double for each run in wire costs, Making additional connections, and burrying additional cable, and then the other misc. costs dont you think it would have been cheaper and quicker to replace the trans with a Life Time warranted 22v unit and been done with it?

As I said before I like to tinker with things to get them runing better...we all most likely have lifetime warranty Trans. at our homes. After 2, 3 or even 5 years almost all of our Trans. will be called outdated. Most likely most - maybe not all - Man. has the same 5 years full replacement Warranty and after that it is lifetime repairs for the Trans...... As far as paying double....not sure that's accurate since Looping smaler AWG to get the results of a fater AWG is not really double paying...they almost cost the same...but a better VD based on my readings. FYI. I didn't add more connections just used a 200 footer and these runs I installed about 2 years ago...i didn't add any cable now...just took one side of the pathway light off to drop my 290W Loads of the three circuits. They were 9 x 20W.

You know what...speaking of the 290 W Loads...I think it will be interesting to load back my three circuits back to 290W and come-up with another table.....I bet this will spark another month of criticizm...I can see it coming...watch.

irrig8r
01-27-2009, 10:23 PM
Here we go again...attacks than more attacks by Chris and Ryan...first I was told I'm a Lighcraft Rep when I asked how their Trans. perform.....than when I called VISTA Local Rep.....as Gregg suggested here about my Transformer Problem....now I'm called a VISTA Rep....what's next...if I call Dave's Ryco's people Trans. and share with you guys here what they tell me I'm going to be called Ryco's Rep too ???

Maybe that's the technique not to answer VD's on Loop Runs question by kicking the ball in the outfield somewhere...or maybe next I'll be called the Loop Runs's Rep !!!

Hey Jimmy. I wasn't "attacking"... You hadn't mentioned anything about your following through on the Vista rep I gave you a link to... so I just assumed you hadn't.

Meanwhile, you mention testing resistance (Ohms) with your multimeter, and since I don't know what brand or model I can only assume, but if yours has an "amp clamp" it reads amperage through induction, i.e. doesn't need to touch bare wires but DOES need to completely encircle an individual wire, whether it be the common or the hot. (If you clamp around both common and hot together they will cancel each other out and you'll read zero.)

Chris J
01-27-2009, 10:27 PM
Here's a concept for you Jimmyboy; since you have come to this site you have experienced nothing but ridicule and criticism. You have argued your point till you and I are both blue in the face. The professionals here have told you what to do, yet you still argue that you have a better way (or another that will work). It's time for you to go away. You have become a real nuisance and I for one don't appreciate it. I'm the only one on this forum who is allowed to be an ass, and you are working on my territory right now so stop it before I have to take out a contract on your crack ass!

irrig8r
01-27-2009, 10:43 PM
Here's a concept for you Jimmyboy; since you have come to this site you have experienced nothing but ridicule and criticism. You have argued your point till you and I are both blue in the face. The professionals here have told you what to do, yet you still argue that you have a better way (or another that will work). It's time for you to go away. You have become a real nuisance and I for one don't appreciate it. I'm the only one on this forum who is allowed to be an ass, and you are working on my territory right now so stop it before I have to take out a contract on your crack ass!

Jimmy, don't mind Chris... he's the black sheep of this forum... or is that the scapegoat?

Either way, he's an animal!

:)

Oh.... and he doesn't like Canadians.

Chris J
01-27-2009, 11:35 PM
Now that's funny ****! :weightlifter:

Chris J
01-27-2009, 11:40 PM
I'd like to take this opportunity to tell you guys that I really appreciate your correspondence. I'm a lonely guy lately, but I still get my fair share. You guys keep me grounded, and fairly well pissed off, which gives me a balanced life in my own way.
Thanks for the giving. If I can give you back any of this crap, just let me know! :cry: :laugh:

TXNSLighting
01-28-2009, 12:21 AM
I couldnt imagine this place without you Chris!!

Chris J
01-28-2009, 02:07 AM
Ryan, your one of the people who keeps me coming back. I'm here to help. If not in technical support, in humor (for those who get it anyway).

Later,
Me.

jimmy1111
01-28-2009, 06:36 AM
Meanwhile, you mention testing resistance (Ohms) with your multimeter, and since I don't know what brand or model I can only assume, but if yours has an "amp clamp" it reads amperage through induction, i.e. doesn't need to touch bare wires but DOES need to completely encircle an individual wire, whether it be the common or the hot. (If you clamp around both common and hot together they will cancel each other out and you'll read zero.)

Thanks Gregg...that older multimeter i had didn't masure the amps (i.e. didn't have the clamp for amps) but only R & AC/DC V through the pins... didn't give me consistant value.

With the new Multimeter I got now it measyre them all and had the clamp.....I did exactly what you described and the numbers checked each others.

jimmy1111
01-28-2009, 06:50 AM
You need to measure your amps at the transformer. Test each individual run right at the terminal blocks. Testing the amps at the fixtures will give you some information, but you need to know the total load being placed on the wire and the trans. If you have several runs coming out of the same circuit, you need to also test all of these at the same time. Place your clamp meter around every wire (at one time) coming out of each common.

Chris...thanks...that helped a whole lot when i was getting the numbers.....don't know why you hate my gutts now if i did exactly what you wrote above and posted the numbers here...

Remember my runs were installed 2 years ago not now....if I knew back than what I know now from you guys...that would have been different story.

My simple question is VD in Loop runs as a way to explain my 1.7 VD in a 100 ft. run with 250W load using loop of 12/2 AWG...don't know how this would offend anyone.

jimmy1111
01-28-2009, 07:14 AM
Attached are the numbers for those of you who missed seeing it.

JoeyD
01-28-2009, 10:34 AM
This may be the worst DIY thread ever..........

Lets all just use twice the 12/2 now on every run since its better and leave it at that.......I myself will stick with 24v systems where I can load my 12/2 to 480watts...you guys can do whatever you want since we now have a new and improved wiring method for 12v!! LOL To be honest, I am still confused by what is posted above........LOL

jimmy1111
01-28-2009, 12:51 PM
This may be the worst DIY thread ever..........

Lets all just use twice the 12/2 now on every run since its better and leave it at that.......I myself will stick with 24v systems where I can load my 12/2 to 480watts...you guys can do whatever you want since we now have a new and improved wiring method for 12v!! LOL To be honest, I am still confused by what is posted above........LOL

Joey...For the record....That's an attack from you LOL gotya on this one.

I know you are smart enough to figure that table above...just concentrate on Circuit 3...with the VD measured under 250W & 290W...that's the 13 V Tap....

It is about the principal and advantages to connect two parallel runs - if you can - like when you have runs on each side of a walkway and a chase already installed by others under the walkway at the end...wouldn't you do it after seeing these measurments ??...Hell my VD decreased by at least 2/3 !!!.

Let me put the numbers below so it is easier to see:


12 AWG, 100ft. run, 250 W ====> VD with single run = 6.67 I got 1.7

12AWG, 100ft. run, 290W ====> VD with single run = 7.73 I got 2.1


Again this is not intended to offend any other way to make a system work.

JoeyD
01-28-2009, 01:04 PM
I am not offended and I am not trying to attack you. I made a general comment that this thread is terrible.....

I just don't see why you think running 12/2 in parallel is such a great thing?

1. the NEC does not allow it

2. it is a waste of cable

3.It is a million times easier to use a multi tap transformer that does not limit me to 15v so I could go way beyond your limits with 12/2. Better yet I would use 24v and use a single run of 14/2 and still be done with it quicker and cheaper than what you are describing........Your way is inefficient and is a waste of wire, bottom line.

You could have tossed that faulty, outdated, discontinued unit away purchased a new unit for a few hundred bucks wired it up and DONE! Instead you are playing transformer manufacturer repairing this faulty unit and then pulling additional wire runs therefore having to recover wire, make new connections, and then re bury the wire. Your calculations are fine and dandy but that still does not resolve all of this other stuff you had to do to get to where you are. If time is of no concern and K.I.S.S. does not apply to your thought process of proper installation then I could see where you think that what you have done is awesome and great. But for the everyday professional that is doing this for a living, you will never convince him that RUNNING WIRE IN PARALLEL (NOT A LOOP) is easier than doing it the RIGHT WAY.


Sorry if you feel this is an attack, it is just a general K.I.S.S. observation.....Again, I wish you all the luck in the world and I hope your transformer doesn't fail again and cause worse damage next time!

MarkOlex
01-28-2009, 01:50 PM
I am not offended and I am not trying to attack you. I made a general comment that this thread is terrible.....

I just don't see why you think running 12/2 in parallel is such a great thing?

1. the NEC does not allow it

2. it is a waste of cable

3.It is a million times easier to use a multi tap transformer that does not limit me to 15v so I could go way beyond your limits with 12/2. Better yet I would use 24v and use a single run of 14/2 and still be done with it quicker and cheaper than what you are describing........Your way is inefficient and is a waste of wire, bottom line.

You could have tossed that faulty, outdated, discontinued unit away purchased a new unit for a few hundred bucks wired it up and DONE! Instead you are playing transformer manufacturer repairing this faulty unit and then pulling additional wire runs therefore having to recover wire, make new connections, and then re bury the wire. Your calculations are fine and dandy but that still does not resolve all of this other stuff you had to do to get to where you are. If time is of no concern and K.I.S.S. does not apply to your thought process of proper installation then I could see where you think that what you have done is awesome and great. But for the everyday professional that is doing this for a living, you will never convince him that RUNNING WIRE IN PARALLEL (NOT A LOOP) is easier than doing it the RIGHT WAY.


Sorry if you feel this is an attack, it is just a general K.I.S.S. observation.....Again, I wish you all the luck in the world and I hope your transformer doesn't fail again and cause worse damage next time!


Wow. I have never seen Joey break some ones balls like this. Just kidding:laugh:

It appears after reading this entire thread that everyone has wasted there energy trying to help this misguided DIY'er (LightCraft Rep) to no avail.
We would have an easier time teaching a fish to breath out of the water.

JoeyD
01-28-2009, 02:08 PM
Wow. I have never seen Joey break some ones balls like this. Just kidding:laugh:

It appears after reading this entire thread that everyone has wasted there energy trying to help this misguided DIY'er (LightCraft Rep) to no avail.
We would have an easier time teaching a fish to breath out of the water.

Thanks for trying to fan the flames Mark!!! LMAO :laugh:

jimmy1111
01-28-2009, 02:18 PM
RUNNING WIRE IN PARALLEL (NOT A LOOP) is easier than doing it the RIGHT WAY.


If i'm not mistaken what you meant by runing Paralell is conection one wire of the fixture to leg and the second wire of the fixture to the other leg......that would have been a miserable installation and huge nightmare..I agree.

I don't think my runs are Parallel...they are not even in the same trench...they were installed 2 years ago and ran fine...till the other problem with the faulty connections inside my Trans. came up...than I started questioning everything and started this Thread.

What I meant by LOOP is that one leg is on one side of the walkway and the other leg is on the other side of the walkway...but yet it is one 12/2 that starts from the Trans. out on one side of the walkway for a 100 ft. than turns back under the walkway to the second side of the walkway and back to the same tap in the Trans. without even one connection and there are stagered light fixtures on each side of the walkway...Is that really parallel ??

jimmy1111
01-28-2009, 02:32 PM
It appears after reading this entire thread that everyone has wasted there energy trying to help this misguided DIY'er (LightCraft Rep) to no avail.
We would have an easier time teaching a fish to breath out of the water.

LOL...I wish I was a light craft guy...I wouldn't be fighting to keep my VISTA Trans.

BTW Mark... that fish is not looking to breath out of the water...just wondering why being stuck in a small cage underwater...when it can get a 3 times bigger cage.

JoeyD
01-28-2009, 03:41 PM
A traditional loop would be where you pull an addtional wire from the last light on the run to the first light on the run....what you are doing is some wierd daisy chain hybrid loop.......Different then what I understood you to be doing but still nothing I would promote. Servicing would be a nightmare for ayone but you, polarity is now in play, and you still have inconsistant voltage being distributed to every lamp. Either way you got it all figured out.......

TXNSLighting
01-28-2009, 03:44 PM
good ole daisy chainin at its finest!

klkanders
01-28-2009, 03:54 PM
A traditional loop would be where you pull an addtional wire from the last light on the run to the first light on the run....

Joey,
I think this is called a lollipop loop if I remember correctly?

Keith

SamIV
01-28-2009, 05:52 PM
From what I have read, he has installed a loop system where the run makes a complete loop back to the transformer. As long as he keeps polarity the same, this should work. From what I have read, you are essentially stepping up to the next size wire. From 12 to 10, not 8 gauge.

I have never installed using this method but the professor on another forum lives by this. Lollipop is where you loop back to the first fixture and not back to the transformer. The loop method does work, but you have to cut the mainline every time you need to wire in a fixture unless you use pierce points, and lets not go there. Way too many connections for me.

Burt Wilson
Accent Outdoor Lighting

jimmy1111
01-28-2009, 07:44 PM
From what I have read, he has installed a loop system where the run makes a complete loop back to the transformer. As long as he keeps polarity the same, this should work. Thank goodness somebody understands...BTW I Loop installations in my other house and been running fine for 7 years...From what I have read, you are essentially stepping up to the next size wire. From 12 to 10, not 8 gauge...where can i get this information ?...In my test my VD READIN is less than having an 8 AWG...not sure if you saw my VD above they are still 0.2 V LESS than having an 8AWG.

I have never installed using this method but the professor on another forum lives by this...Burt can you type in the link to that other forum..i like to talk to that "Professor"... BTW is he really Professor ? Lollipop is where you loop back to the first fixture and not back to the transformer. The loop method does work, but you have to cut the mainline every time you need to wire in a fixture unless you use pierce points, and lets not go there. I think i have these pierce points if you mean connectors that clip on the outside of the cable without cutting it I beleive i got them from Kichler7 years ago....are they bad ? Way too many connections for me.

Burt Wilson
Accent Outdoor Lighting

I think I should have drawn this darn Loop to make it easier for everyone too what I'm referring to...my fault...ended up with lolipops and daisy chains...geeshh..what else is left!!!LOL

Chris J
01-29-2009, 10:31 AM
Jimmy, I don't hate you. And no, those connectors are not bad. I've got thousands of them I'll sell to you really, really cheap if you want more.

jimmy1111
01-29-2009, 12:52 PM
Jimmy, I don't hate you. And no, those connectors are not bad. I've got thousands of them I'll sell to you really, really cheap if you want more.

Now that you want to sell me these connectors we are friends HUH !!!..Just kidding.....At least you didn't call me "some fish" like Mark did without even understanding what is a Loop Installation....

MarkOlex
01-29-2009, 03:39 PM
Now that you want to sell me these connectors we are friends HUH !!!..Just kidding.....At least you didn't call me "some fish" like Mark did without even understanding what is a Loop Installation....

I know what a loop is and as Sam said there is a guy in PA who swears by it. I guess if you are building a WAN for the government there would be a reason to have redundancy but this is lighting not NORAD. I never called you a fish I said it would be easier to teach a fish to breathe. So please accept my deepest apology for the misunderstanding. A "fish" is the guy who sits at the poker table with me and I take all his money. So if you play poker you could be a "fish". :)See you in Atlantic City Saturday.:)

SamIV
01-29-2009, 05:56 PM
lowvolt.org and do a search - Loop wiring. And yes most of us if not all here are not big fans of pierce points, but to each his own.

Burt

JoeyD
01-29-2009, 06:04 PM
The Lollipop it is! I will leave the lollipops to the candy store and kids!! I work with more effecient means of wiring methods! But you know the old saying....what ever floats yer boat!! ;)

jimmy1111
01-29-2009, 09:26 PM
lowvolt.org and do a search - Loop wiring. And yes most of us if not all here are not big fans of pierce points, but to each his own.

Burt

Thanks Burt that's an interesting site..is Mike that "Professor" ?? He seem to have a lot of technical data under his belt.

Did you test a VD on a Loop Run in the past and got these crazy low VD's or it's only me who is blessed ???

jimmy1111
01-29-2009, 09:42 PM
The Lollipop it is! I will leave the lollipops to the candy store and kids!! I work with more effecient means of wiring methods! But you know the old saying....what ever floats yer boat!! ;)

LOL...you still call my Loop Runs lolipops !!! eventhough they are looping back to the Trans not the first Fixture...

Think VD is the BASE!!...the lesser VD you get the better your runs are configured .... especially when each leg of the Loop is used to light up about half of your fixtures...and not just thrown there to be there.

tonyGub
01-29-2009, 10:32 PM
LOL...you still call my Loop Runs lolipops !!! eventhough they are looping back to the Trans not the first Fixture...

Think VD is the BASE!!...the lesser VD you get the better your runs are configured .... especially when each leg of the Loop is used to light up about half of your fixtures...and not just thrown there to be there.

Blah blah blah blah blahBS. Are you really mike from lowvolt.org putting a shameless plug on this website; to draw attention to your website? Just wondering.

jimmy1111
01-30-2009, 06:36 AM
Blah blah blah blah blahBS. Are you really mike from lowvolt.org putting a shameless plug on this website; to draw attention to your website? Just wondering.

LOL...and why do I do that....to sell more Loops ??...I just read one forum for Mike there...and he seems to have lot of technical information that some flew over my head about his stranded versus solid wires idea.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-30-2009, 11:58 AM
Well I have posted over 2000 times on this forum, and I have to say that this thread is probably the worst yet. Even "Pete's" participation was better then this drivel. :sleeping:

Jimmy, you do what you need to do, and the rest of us will do what we know is right.

Now, can we end this? :clapping:

jimmy1111
01-30-2009, 09:26 PM
Well I have posted over 2000 times on this forum, and I have to say that this thread is probably the worst yet. Even "Pete's" participation was better then this drivel. :sleeping:

Jimmy, you do what you need to do, and the rest of us will do what we know is right.

Now, can we end this? :clapping:

James...go your rocket science LED made-up already !!!...we are all expecting free 20 LED supplies ...or you need to chip some your canadian stack to this site by now after 2000 posts for your LED...let's admit it you owe it to this site

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-30-2009, 09:47 PM
Pardon me? Perhaps you could re-state that in english?

TXNSLighting
01-31-2009, 12:08 AM
Pardon me? Perhaps you could re-state that in english?

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

Chris J
01-31-2009, 10:22 AM
Bartender, I'll have another.

TXNSLighting
01-31-2009, 10:30 AM
Make that a double.

Venturewest
01-31-2009, 01:18 PM
Geesh guys......just asking a simple question on how you calculate VD's when you loop your runs...

Okay Jimmy, I am going to be nice and answer this question once and for all and hopefully end this thread. I apologize in advance if this has been answered somewhere in the previous 9 pages!!!!

A widely accepted formula for calculating voltage drop is:

Vd= Length x Watts/ Cable Constant

There is a chart that lists the cable constants for low voltage cable: I will list the relevant few:

#12 CC is 7500
#10 CC is 11920
#8 CC is 18960

If you use the loop method and come back to the transformer you are effectively using 2 runs of 12 gauge wire. This is a common meathod, not a big deal.

You end up with a wire constant of 15,000

So, 2 x 12 gauge has less drop than 10 gauge but a little more than 8 gauge.

If you do one of your examples:
250 Watts at 100' and run a 12 gauge loop then formula as follows.

100' x 250/ 15000 = 1.67 volts as your drop
That is basically what you came up with.

As you can see the loop isn't magic and it also isn't intrinsically evil. It doubles your wire.

One thing to keep in mind is that you still can't exceed the amps for your wire but you seem to know that.

Also, you could just have 2 separate runs of 12 gauge, say one runs to 3 lights and the other runs to 3 lights instead of a loop that runs to all 6.

One other thing to note also. This is a parallel circuit as is every other method of wiring in low voltage AC. Same as in a home.

The only way to effectively combat VD is with antibiotics. But Vd can be dealt with using effective wiring methods.

Venturewest
01-31-2009, 01:29 PM
One more note. 12 gauge wire is only rated at 20 Amps. That is 240 Watts at 12 volts of course.

I guess NEC requires any electrical device operating 3 hours or more to be derated to 80% capacity. (I got this out of Unique's lighting manual)

jimmy1111
02-01-2009, 07:40 AM
Okay Jimmy, I am going to be nice and answer this question once and for all and hopefully end this thread. I apologize in advance if this has been answered somewhere in the previous 9 pages!!!!

A widely accepted formula for calculating voltage drop is:

Vd= Length x Watts/ Cable Constant...I thought all along the VD formula was/is: VD = 2 X Length X Watts/Cable Constant....that's also reflected in Joey D's formula and few other sources and manuals I saw. The factor of 2 is missing from your formula...now i'm puzzled...also from the fxl wire gauge tables the factor of 2 seems to have been included.

There is a chart that lists the cable constants for low voltage cable: I will list the relevant few:

#12 CC is 7500
#10 CC is 11920
#8 CC is 18960

If you use the loop method and come back to the transformer you are effectively using 2 runs of 12 gauge wire. This is a common meathod, not a big deal....Thank you...almost everyone made it sound like out of space.

You end up with a wire constant of 15,000

So, 2 x 12 gauge has less drop than 10 gauge but a little more than 8 gauge.

If you do one of your examples:
250 Watts at 100' and run a 12 gauge loop then formula as follows.

100' x 250/ 15000 = 1.67 volts as your drop
That is basically what you came up with.

As you can see the loop isn't magic and it also isn't intrinsically evil. It doubles your wire.

One thing to keep in mind is that you still can't exceed the amps for your wire but you seem to know that.

Also, you could just have 2 separate runs of 12 gauge, say one runs to 3 lights and the other runs to 3 lights instead of a loop that runs to all 6.

One other thing to note also. This is a parallel circuit as is every other method of wiring in low voltage AC. Same as in a home.

The only way to effectively combat VD is with antibiotics. ...where do i pt that darn pill? on top of the fixture ???...just kidding. But Vd can be dealt with using effective wiring methods.


Thanks for the details....but the VD seems to be conflicting with other sources.

JoeyD
02-03-2009, 10:26 AM
Okay Jimmy, I am going to be nice and answer this question once and for all and hopefully end this thread. I apologize in advance if this has been answered somewhere in the previous 9 pages!!!!

A widely accepted formula for calculating voltage drop is:

Vd= Length x Watts/ Cable Constant

There is a chart that lists the cable constants for low voltage cable: I will list the relevant few:

#12 CC is 7500
#10 CC is 11920
#8 CC is 18960

If you use the loop method and come back to the transformer you are effectively using 2 runs of 12 gauge wire. This is a common meathod, not a big deal.

You end up with a wire constant of 15,000

So, 2 x 12 gauge has less drop than 10 gauge but a little more than 8 gauge.

If you do one of your examples:
250 Watts at 100' and run a 12 gauge loop then formula as follows.

100' x 250/ 15000 = 1.67 volts as your drop
That is basically what you came up with.

As you can see the loop isn't magic and it also isn't intrinsically evil. It doubles your wire.

One thing to keep in mind is that you still can't exceed the amps for your wire but you seem to know that.

Also, you could just have 2 separate runs of 12 gauge, say one runs to 3 lights and the other runs to 3 lights instead of a loop that runs to all 6.

One other thing to note also. This is a parallel circuit as is every other method of wiring in low voltage AC. Same as in a home.

The only way to effectively combat VD is with antibiotics. But Vd can be dealt with using effective wiring methods.

you need to multiply by 2.........

Venturewest
02-03-2009, 10:43 AM
you need to multiply by 2.........

Multiply what by 2?

JoeyD
02-03-2009, 01:49 PM
the wire goes there and back.....thats why that method is off.......it never took in account that the LV system is AC not DC. The best method to use techniclly is :

2 x WIRE VALUE x LENGTH OF RUN x AMPS / CIRCULAR MILS

but the most commonly used and still accurate method is:

AMPS x RESISTANCE x LENGTH x 2

both methods require you to multiply by 2 for use.....

Venturewest
02-03-2009, 05:17 PM
the wire goes there and back.....thats why that method is off.......it never took in account that the LV system is AC not DC. The best method to use techniclly is :

2 x WIRE VALUE x LENGTH OF RUN x AMPS / CIRCULAR MILS

but the most commonly used and still accurate method is:

AMPS x RESISTANCE x LENGTH x 2

both methods require you to multiply by 2 for use.....

I can't really envision a scenario in which the loop is necessary, and I admittedly could be total wrong, but I still think this seems like the opportune time for a wager.

I would think that the converse would be true with AC vs DC. With AC your are doubling the surface area that the electrons can travel on if you loop the wire back to the transformer. You are not doubling the distance they have to travel, you are merely doubling the circular mils.

This would be like running water in 2 1" pipes instead of 1 1" pipe, not running the water twice the distance in 2 1" pipes??:dizzy:

Back to the wager. If I am right, you send me a Big Bang and if I am right I will send you an equivalent light from Advantage :laugh:

Anyways, just trying to learn a little of the theory.

JoeyD
02-03-2009, 05:34 PM
Foget the loop.....the wire we are using is 12/2 or 10/2 or if you are desperate 8/2

So essentially 2 wires make one cable. A/C means voltage is being sent through one half of the wire and that current is being returned in the other cable. So when figuring VD you have to calculate the voltage going there and back.....

Go take 100ft of cable and 100watts. Do each VD method by hand then go verify with your Volt Meter.........the Volt Meter is the best VD method there is!!! LOL


Still wanna bet??? :weightlifter:

Venturewest
02-03-2009, 06:04 PM
Foget the loop.....the wire we are using is 12/2 or 10/2 or if you are desperate 8/2

So essentially 2 wires make one cable. A/C means voltage is being sent through one half of the wire and that current is being returned in the other cable. So when figuring VD you have to calculate the voltage going there and back.....

Go take 100ft of cable and 100watts. Do each VD method by hand then go verify with your Volt Meter.........the Volt Meter is the best VD method there is!!! LOL


Still wanna bet??? :weightlifter:

Okay I tested it and here are the results:
I had a transformer set up in the front yard so this was easy. I used 16 gauge because I had a bunch right there, and one 50 Watt fixture to make the test simple and accurate.

So 60' distance to a 50 Watt Fixture, Output at transformer: 12.08 V

Voltage at fixture: 10.35 V and 3.89 Amps Vd=1.73

Complete loop, now 120' of wire, looping back to same terminals on transformer. Again verified 12.08 at terminal lugs.

Voltage at fixture: 11.22 V and same Amps. Vd=.86

I also checked my Amps through only one of the 16 gauge wires, and the Amperage was 1/2 of the 3.89 because the same amount of total Amps had twice as much wire to run through.
Am I missing something?
Lets see....I really like antique brass.

JoeyD
02-03-2009, 06:07 PM
uhhhhhhhhh............I dont know what you are talking about?? I am not saying anything about looping the wire Venture..........I am saying that that 12/2 cable and low voltage systems operate off of A/C and that Cable Contstant method you posted will be off by double of what the real VD would be..........I dont like nor do I promote the LOOP or LOLLIPOP method........

Venturewest
02-03-2009, 07:21 PM
uhhhhhhhhh............I dont know what you are talking about?? I am not saying anything about looping the wire Venture..........I am saying that that 12/2 cable and low voltage systems operate off of A/C and that Cable Contstant method you posted will be off by double of what the real VD would be..........I dont like nor do I promote the LOOP or LOLLIPOP method........

Maybe we are talking about 2 differant things then. I would like to understand what you are talking about for my own education. So in what case scenario are you saying that you have to double the cable constant of the 12/2 to obtain the real Vd? If you can describe what you mean I think I might understand a little better.

When I am saying "loop". I am basically saying run 2 12/2 cables from the same terminals on the transformer to a common fixture or fixtures. Do you mean something differant?

jimmy1111
02-03-2009, 09:17 PM
I agree that JoeyD formula is the formula to determine VD in landscape lighting...also it is reflected in almost every Vable VD tables I saw.

I aslo agree with Venture analysis of the VD and his test is another proof of VD in my test earlier.

There is only one definition of a "Loop" which we all seem to agree on...from the trans. out to a load than back to the Trans....Lolipop is similar but you loop back to the first fixture not back to the Trans.

Now here is my 2 cents that I learned by looping my 12/2 wire....12/2 has 65 strands of copper...looping would equate to 2 x 65 = 130 strands of copper...8/2 cables has 133 strands of wire..so for the case of looping a 12/2 this would equate to a single run of 8/2 as a general rule for VD in loops...or like Venture said 2 x 1" pipes versus 1 x 2" pipe.


For looping any other cable and based on Venture's Test and Mine earlier....the VD should be calculated using half the load....again VD being: VD = 2 X Length X Watts/Cable Constant - which is the same as what JoeyD wrote above....also making sure the Amps Measurment on each leg is not exceeding that cable's rating.

Here is quick reference to one of the VD tables I got from Dave earlier and used to justify my numbers and now Venture's measurements: http://www.fxl.com/learning/voltage.htm

jimmy1111
02-05-2009, 07:34 PM
I'm going to reload my circuits back up to 290W on each circuit and take the readings...we'll have 3 test readings about the Loop Runs and its advantages of cutting your VD by Half!!!

Stay Tuned..!!!!

TXNSLighting
02-06-2009, 12:06 AM
Noone here cares...

JoeyD
02-06-2009, 09:18 AM
so funny...........

worx
02-06-2009, 11:02 AM
oops!:confused:

JoeyD
02-06-2009, 11:03 AM
NOOOO..I wanted to be 103!! LOL

worx
02-06-2009, 11:04 AM
dang your fast.....before I could even edit....

JoeyD
02-06-2009, 11:04 AM
and 105.............lol

worx
02-06-2009, 11:08 AM
The 200th poster wins a Unique.....:waving:

SamIV
02-06-2009, 01:18 PM
......Loop Voltage Drop Claculator....:dancing:

JoeyD
02-06-2009, 01:27 PM
..........hahahahhahaha

TXNSLighting
02-06-2009, 04:42 PM
yay!!!!!!!!!!

jimmy1111
02-06-2009, 09:11 PM
yay!!!!!!!!!!

I just want to see your real "YAY..!!!" when you come-up with a way to cut your VD by half one day...

Or maybe your "Noone cares" attitude applies to all and everything....lol

TXNSLighting
02-06-2009, 10:46 PM
I have! Its called the Unique 24v lighting system, or LED's!! Yay again!! I also dont have to waste any wire this way either! So again Yay!!!

jimmy1111
02-07-2009, 07:35 PM
I have! Its called the Unique 24v lighting system, or LED's!! Yay again!! I also dont have to waste any wire this way either! So again Yay!!!

lol...well not everyone can afford a Unique..for LED..not sure the rocket scientists came up with LED for each type of bulbs....so hold-off your yay!!!for a while....as to wasting wires..how else other than a loop would you light-up arround a pool or a patio or pathway when the fixtures are equally spaced all around forming a circular shape...so that yay!! is way off....lol

TXNSLighting
02-08-2009, 01:04 AM
lol...well not everyone can afford a Unique..for LED..not sure the rocket scientists came up with LED for each type of bulbs....so hold-off your yay!!!for a while....as to wasting wires..how else other than a loop would you light-up arround a pool or a patio or pathway when the fixtures are equally spaced all around forming a circular shape...so that yay!! is way off....lol

gee let me think...the same way i always do it! and its not the dumb loop method... i dont know why i keep responding to this...im done. Just go away Pete.

jimmy1111
02-08-2009, 07:51 AM
gee let me think...the same way i always do it! and its not the dumb loop method... i dont know why i keep responding to this...im done. Just go away Pete.

Gee let me think which way is the dunb way...

Running single 10/2 awg wires on each side of the pool BUT stoping short by about 10 feet to connect to the second run and form a loop

OR

Running 12/2 for the entire circular conference of a pool as a loop while droping your VD to an equivalent 8/2 single runs

Now... YAY!!! for figuring out which way is the dunb way

Pete ????...who the heck is Pete!!!:confused:

TXNSLighting
02-08-2009, 01:58 PM
Good job spelling!!

jimmy1111
02-17-2009, 08:58 PM
well..this got quiet for a bit...so here is an update.

As some of you recommended, VISTA agreed to replace my old Transformer with new MT900 - 11-15V Taps...I had to pay $100 for the replacement..which I think it was a BS and the local distributor pull that one on me since i'm not a contractor...but it was worth it for a new Trans....and to avoid putting my house on fire like David said in one of these forums...lol.

Hooked it up and did some new readings...will post them up shortly afetr i finish putting them in a table....

In summary i'm getting more voltage at each tap with the new unit than the old one that I replaced....just wondering if it is a technology change...or just new units normally provide more voltage than older ones.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-17-2009, 09:53 PM
On second thought.... Please Delete My Posting.

TXNSLighting
02-17-2009, 11:32 PM
Not sure why you bother...

JoeyD
02-18-2009, 11:17 AM
LMAO.......http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f13/xbbox/Smileys/nocomment8so.gif

rlpsystems
02-18-2009, 05:07 PM
So Unique 24 volt system is the way?

rlpsystems
02-18-2009, 05:13 PM
Yeah, might try one on the next install.

jimmy1111
02-18-2009, 08:29 PM
So Unique 24 volt system is the way?

The 24 V system is pain to get replacement bulbs for....Hone depot and Lowes that most home owners expect to get these replacement bulbs from don't carry the 24V line of ....say MR16.

Not sure about the cost diferential between the 24V system versus the 12V but surely there is inconvenience issue with system maintenance.

S&MLL
02-18-2009, 09:22 PM
Well seems like snow season is about done. So I'm going to put the plow away and load the truck with "lamps" again..... Got alot of reading to do on L/S. Been on plowsite all winter. Jimmy seems like your not liked to much around here hahaha. BTW where are these lights in philly? I dont remember seeing many yards around there.

djt22
02-18-2009, 09:28 PM
What if any story is behind the 24 volt system's that have caused fires. Was it just improper install by contractor or bad design by unique. When ever I ask if any one has thought about it here(ohio) they revert back to "THE FIRES"???

S&MLL
02-18-2009, 09:31 PM
12 volt par36's start fires.

As long as the system is installed properly there should be no issues

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-18-2009, 11:21 PM
Oh man, Joey is going to explode when he reads this stuff! Maybe somebody should send him a text msg. and tell him to breath deeply before he comes into work tormorrow! :)

TXNSLighting
02-19-2009, 12:25 AM
I have already warned him...

JoeyD
02-19-2009, 09:29 AM
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f13/xbbox/Smileys/stickpoke.gif

hahahah........24v fires...really? http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f13/xbbox/Smileys/YDRBATCDY.gif

All I can say about that is ask for proof and then please share the proof here....our 12v systems start fires everyday according to our competition.....apparently only Unique systems can cause fires....LOL http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f13/xbbox/Smileys/bduh.gif Dont you think we would be in lawsuits for all the lives we have ruined due to all these invisible fires? http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f13/xbbox/Smileys/wallbash.gif

24v lamps are readily available at PROFESSIONAL SUPPLY Houses. Not HOME/DIY Stores. We build our systems for PROFESSIONALS TO INSTALL and MAINTAIN not the DIY market. Our systems are too sophisticated for an uneducated installer to take them on with out proper knowledge of how to operate real single core multip tap transformers.

Back to the fires. This is as bogus a scare tactic as there has ever been. FOR ONE AMPS CREATE HEAT AND FIRE NOT VOLTAGE! 120v systems are in the ground on almost every single commercial job you will see. 120v is WAY dangerous yet no one seems to acknowledge that....30v or less is deemed safe and is considered low voltage by the NATIONAL FIRE PROTECTION AGENCY and THE NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE.

For the record, last year I received an email from a distributor in Minnesota. It included a news piece that had ran the week before on a million dollar + home that had burned to the ground and the reason the fire inspector said it burned was due to a TRANSFORMER. A UL1838 15v MAX unit nonetheless! So don't think that you cant cause harm with 12v! You cant fix stupid! http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f13/xbbox/Smileys/violent4.gif Bad connections, poor installation methods and un educated practices are what cause fires in electrical systems, not 12v, 24v, and 120v lighting systems!!!

I love all these new smileys....they keep me calm!! LOL http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f13/xbbox/Smileys/beer.gif

jimmy1111
02-19-2009, 09:14 PM
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f13/xbbox/Smileys/stickpoke.gif



24v lamps are readily available at PROFESSIONAL SUPPLY Houses. Not HOME/DIY Stores. We build our systems for PROFESSIONALS TO INSTALL and MAINTAIN not the DIY market. Our systems are too sophisticated for an uneducated installer to take them on with out proper knowledge of how to operate real single core multip tap transformers.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f13/xbbox/Smileys/beer.gif

Who is that dump ass that is going to hire a Contractor to replace a light bulb or drive accross town to a professional supply store that most likely is not open on the weekend..hence..need to take a day off to get a $5 MR16 light bulb.

I don't think anyone is attacking Unique....I don't know why everybody pointed the finger at JoeyD & Unique as beings under criticism....It is the inconvenience of a 24v system that any handy homeowner or DIY or uneducated installer or whatever the hell you guys want to call him.

As far as the FIRE story..I agree that the amps is the source of heat and eventually fire due to arch flashes caused by bad connections....Watts = Volts x Amps...for the same load (i.e. Watts = constant) as the voltage increases the amps decreases and less chance of fire....that means the 12 V system is more susceptible to fire than a 24 V.

Getting off the subject again of this forum...stay tuned for the readings I took on 2 new tests for the Loop Runs......your favorite subject dam it!!!:hammerhead:......you better be prepared for a technical explanation not just beating arround the bush for some here....just because you did it the other way for 50 years.

TXNSLighting
02-19-2009, 11:48 PM
Dont waste your time!!! WE DONT GIVE A CRAP!!

djt22
02-19-2009, 11:52 PM
Joey only asked to hear your side don't see alot of it around here but people mention things thats all. There is a lot of kichler and vista up here thats about it other than the mail order stuff that pops up and causes enough headaches. Anybody used Garden Lights??? I guess they only sell to the contractors they feel is needed no suppliers. Came acrossed a job that requested them and when finally found them they declined to sell to us only to one contractor but if I wanted to I could contact that contractor he may sell to me.....He was the other bidder on the job!!! don't think thats gonna happen.

JoeyD
02-20-2009, 09:38 AM
djt, I understand, sorry if it seems I came off on you personally. But sometimes I don't know who is a real member and who is a troll trying to get a rise out of me. Believe me when I say we don't start fires. The only fires that get started are the ones created by LIES at the hands of competing manufacturers who cant gain business with technical knowledge, support, and better understanding. Instead they spread false lies and use scare tactics to try steal and gain business. To each his own but if you ever want the best education, the best customer support, and the best products I am here for you!!!

And for you Jimmy11111111 24v system is better than 12v. BOTTOM LINE. Lamp availability, well OK, they aren't everywhere. But a guy who is dedicated to use a better system probably wont have a problem keeping a case of each lamp he uses on his job in stock for replacement. You should understand because a guy who likes your wiring method needs to keep tons of connectors and wire on hand!!
24v is growing faster and faster everyday. I hope 24v lamps never get into home DIY stores because that is the biggest nightmare in the world sometimes having homeowners replace lamps on their own. Maybe you got it all figured out but most don't. And most judge a lamp by its looks and not by its wattage and beam spread. More problems are caused by homeowners fooling with systems then you could ever imagine. Same goes for uneducated contractors.

irrig8r
02-20-2009, 10:11 AM
Joey... c'mon.. it's not all lies. Some of is just the truth that's been spun to make you look bad :-)

But you are so right about installation methods and training...

In the one case where I shared with you the photos of charred wires in a Unique system that a competitor's rep shared with me, I think you and I agreed that the (obvious in the photo) unconventional wiring gave an indication that the installer was negligent...

irrig8r
02-20-2009, 10:18 AM
djt, I understand, sorry if it seems I came off on you personally. But sometimes I don't know who is a real member and who is a troll trying to get a rise out of me. Believe me when I say we don't start fires. The only fires that get started are the ones created by LIES at the hands of competing manufacturers who cant gain business with technical knowledge, support, and better understanding. Instead they spread false lies and use scare tactics to try steal and gain business. To each his own but if you ever want the best education, the best customer support, and the best products I am here for you!!!

And for you Jimmy11111111 24v system is better than 12v. BOTTOM LINE. Lamp availability, well OK, they aren't everywhere. But a guy who is dedicated to use a better system probably wont have a problem keeping a case of each lamp he uses on his job in stock for replacement. You should understand because a guy who likes your wiring method needs to keep tons of connectors and wire on hand!!
24v is growing faster and faster everyday. I hope 24v lamps never get into home DIY stores because that is the biggest nightmare in the world sometimes having homeowners replace lamps on their own. Maybe you got it all figured out but most don't. And most judge a lamp by its looks and not by its wattage and beam spread. More problems are caused by homeowners fooling with systems then you could ever imagine. Same goes for uneducated contractors.

I can't tell you how many times a well-meaning homeowner has caused problems and cost themselves more $$ by overloading systems with replacement MR-16s that are 50W instead of 20W... they buy a box full for their indoor fixtures, don't understand the difference, and get themselves into trouble.

JoeyD
02-20-2009, 01:09 PM
Exactly...they walk in to Home Depot and tell the HD employee that "I need one of these".....HD guy says I got a whole wall full right here.....so Mr Homeowner goes hmm, I dont know if this is a 20BAB, or 35wFMW, or 50WEXT, well I do know I want mor elight so I will buy 50w.....then I get the phone call saying "My Unique transformer is blowing fuses and I need to send it back, I have never had this problem...." ok well Mr. Jones did you do antyhing to the system....."Noooooooooo, of course not....." hence why i say only professionals should maintain professional systems!!!

But what do I know? LOL

jimmy1111
02-20-2009, 09:01 PM
And for you Jimmy11111111 24v system is better than 12v. BOTTOM LINE. ...I'm glad we both agree on that from the fire stand point per my last message .....Lamp availability, well OK, they aren't everywhere. But a guy who is dedicated to use a better system probably wont have a problem keeping a case of each lamp he uses on his job in stock for replacement. You should understand because a guy who likes your wiring method needs to keep tons of connectors and wire on hand!!..what is that has to do with the FIRE IN 24 V question ??:confused:...

24v is growing faster and faster everyday. I hope 24v lamps never get into home DIY stores because that is the biggest nightmare in the world sometimes having homeowners replace lamps on their own. ..well that applies to the 12 v system too...if someone doesn't know the difference between a 20, 35, & 50 W and the max capacity of his fixture..sorry he deserves a fire...Maybe you got it all figured out but most don't. And most judge a lamp by its looks and not by its wattage and beam spread. More problems are caused by homeowners fooling with systems then you could ever imagine. Same goes for uneducated contractors.


You got to love the readings I got...tomorrow they will be posted....bye bye VD if you loop your wires.:weightlifter:

rlpsystems
02-20-2009, 10:45 PM
So, what's the deal?

TXNSLighting
02-21-2009, 02:02 PM
Mods please close this stupid thread down...

jimmy1111
02-21-2009, 04:32 PM
Mods please close this stupid thread down...

how many times you said you don't care about this thread...and whatever whatever whatever....shoo away already with respect...you keep coming back...and you keep saying the same thing that you don't care...we got the point already...yay!!!

TXNSLighting
02-21-2009, 05:12 PM
Just makin sure you know. and that last one didnt say anything about not caring jeez...

jimmy1111
02-22-2009, 08:54 AM
Okay I tested it and here are the results:
I had a transformer set up in the front yard so this was easy. I used 16 gauge because I had a bunch right there, and one 50 Watt fixture to make the test simple and accurate.

So 60' distance to a 50 Watt Fixture, Output at transformer: 12.08 V

Voltage at fixture: 10.35 V and 3.89 Amps Vd=1.73

Complete loop, now 120' of wire, looping back to same terminals on transformer. Again verified 12.08 at terminal lugs.

Voltage at fixture: 11.22 V and same Amps. Vd=.86

I also checked my Amps through only one of the 16 gauge wires, and the Amperage was 1/2 of the 3.89 because the same amount of total Amps had twice as much wire to run through.
Am I missing something?
Lets see....I really like antique brass.


Ok here are the readings for the 2 tests that I promised to get. Now we have 3 tests done by me and one test by Venture - above - for VD in Loop Runs.

Please note that my last fixture on Circuit 3 is a medium base 50W in a light post...so I had to take the bulb out to take the readings....so the loads shown under circuit 3 already excluded this 50 W load ONLY when taking the 2 voltage readings at that fixture. I put that light bulb back to take all other readings shown in this table. (i.e. Circuit 3 bak-up to 275W for Test 1 and 235W for Test 2)

For circuit 2 the last fixture has 20W MR16....so I was able to get the readings at the pins without taking the light bulb out.

In summary; as I said earlier it seems the explanation of the resulting low VD Looping 12/2, which seems to equate single 8/2 wires, is that 12/2 cable has 65 strands of cooper and 8/2 cable has 133 strands of cooper...so looping 12/2 is actually using 2x65 = 130 strand of cooper which is almost the same - if not exactly the same - as using single 8/2 wires with 133 strand of cooper to that same load.

jimmy1111
02-24-2009, 06:41 PM
awfully quiet...I guess no more criticism left for this DYI's ???:hammerhead:

jimmy1111
02-28-2009, 10:09 AM
Ok here are the readings for the 2 tests that I promised to get. Now we have 3 tests done by me and one test by Venture - above - for VD in Loop Runs.

Please note that my last fixture on Circuit 3 is a medium base 50W in a light post...so I had to take the bulb out to take the readings....so the loads shown under circuit 3 already excluded this 50 W load ONLY when taking the 2 voltage readings at that fixture. I put that light bulb back to take all other readings shown in this table. (i.e. Circuit 3 back to 275W for Test 1 and 235W for Test 2)

For circuit 2 the last fixture has 20W MR16....so I was able to get the readings at the pins without taking the light bulb out.

In summary; as I said earlier it seems the explanation of the resulting low VD Looping 12/2, which seems to equate single 8/2 wires, is that 12/2 cable has 65 strands of cooper and 8/2 cable has 133 strands of cooper...so looping 12/2 is actually using 2x65 = 130 strand of cooper which is almost the same - if not exactly the same - as using single 8/2 wires with 133 strand of cooper to that same load.


Here is another version of the 2 test readings in .jpg for those who can't read a .pdf file.

Again the point of the Loop run is NOT to run 2 cables in the same trench to a fixture but to pick-up some light fixtures on one leg out of the Transformer then some other light fixtures on the second leg back to the Transformer specially when the location of the light fixtures resemble to a circular or oval shape.

This is instead of running 2 single runs of lower gage cable (i.e. 8AWG instead of 12 AWG which is more $$$) to these 2 sets of fixtures and stopping short of connecting the last 2 fixtures (i.e. 10 or 15 ft of 12 AWG) together to make a Loop.

jimmy1111
03-13-2009, 07:12 AM
I guess I graduated !!!:cool2:

TXNSLighting
03-13-2009, 11:05 AM
yeh thats it...

jimmy1111
03-13-2009, 09:00 PM
yay!!!...

You are invited to the Loop Runs Graduation Party ......eventhough I know what you did to this thread:laugh:

Go Halogen
03-15-2009, 01:33 PM
Insanity.....I have not been here for a while and I see that the forum still attracts too many weekend warriors that are trying to save a buck.

Jimmy, where did you come from? You need proper education.
Also, you took advantage of that Philly distributor. You are lucky that he took back your old transformer....once you mess with product the warranty is void.

Crazy stuff.....

- Andy (Go Halogen)

jimmy1111
03-17-2009, 07:41 AM
Insanity.....I have not been here for a while and I see that the forum still attracts too many weekend warriors that are trying to save a buck.

Jimmy, where did you come from? You need proper education.
Also, you took advantage of that Philly distributor. You are lucky that he took back your old transformer....once you mess with product the warranty is void.

Crazy stuff.....

- Andy (Go Halogen)

Well...the 12 AWG wire that i found fried inside is truly caused by Manufacturer defects for 2 reasons:
1. Like everyone said here bad conections have created the fire hazard condition inside the Trans....that is a safety issue that the Manufacturer avoided a law suit by replacing my Trans....eventhough I had to pay the $100 to the distributor.

2. 12AWG wire should never been installed inside the Trans. for each of the 300W ciurcuits when they are protected by 25 amp breakers. In this case the 12AWG wire which is rated at 20 amp was protecting the breaker and not the other way arround where it should have been. 10AWG which is rated at 30 amp should have been installed not the 12 AWG.

As soon as I said the above 2 fatal flaws to the Manufacturer they got stunned and offer me the replacement. Maybe that's why they have discontinued the older Model.

As far as proper eduction....thanks for some of the guys here.

jimmy1111
04-07-2009, 07:12 AM
i'm glad that i didn't go with spider web the runs all over the yard using hubs. I just got an irrigation system installed. not one run got hit.