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muddstopper
01-20-2009, 11:36 PM
In my efforts to rebuild my veggie garden, that happens to be buried under several feet of subsoil. I am thinking about using some left over double ground hardwood bark mulch. This is last years mulch left piled up since spring. I dont have enough for the whole garden spot so I am thinking about just top dressing it over my onion bulbs. The material is breaking down pretty fast it seems as the pile is certainly smaller than it was when it was dumped in its present site. Has anyone ever done this. I wouldnt classifie the bark as a true compost, but its getting pretty close. Heres the threory behind it

treegal1
01-21-2009, 12:02 AM
mudd, my first garden was nothing but wood chips, mostly bark and leaves. I just finished a book,, ruth stout no work garden book,, and she says to mulch everything. my last house we used as a mulch dump all the time, it went from sand hole to paradise!!! even at the farm and several landscapes we add mulch wood flour or chips to lawns to add OM at some level.

some will say that the wood will steal N from the soil, ok lets say yes, but does it go any place?? and I have never seen it rod from on top of the soil, just catch what may have evaporated or volatilized in the first place.

that is where humus starts in the forest, trees are cannibals.....

White Gardens
01-21-2009, 12:48 AM
Go ahead and use it.

If it was fresh hardwood mulch that was worth something, then I would say no don't use it and go find some recycled material from the local landscaping center.

But, since it's old, go for it. Either use it as a weed barrier after all your plants are established, or, spread it and till it in.

Regardless, earth worms love cellulose fibers.

Also, might want to think about turning mulch pile a couple of times to get the natural processes working again before you use it.

muddstopper
01-21-2009, 06:49 PM
OK, both of you missed the point. Did you read the attached doc.

I, like many have used wood chips as a mulch material, even using saw dust in the garden. According to the attached doc. 75% of all the trees nutrients are in the outer layers of the tree. Hardwood being much better at building and replaceing soils and humis than the conifer. The doc also mentioned not composting before using and only applying to the top layer of the soil.

As for Trees statements about N consumption. Mulch materials tilled into the soil provide more surface areas for microbial contact since the entire mulch material is surrounded with the soil. With surface applied materials, only the bottom layer of the mulch is in contact with the soil, effectively reduceing the speed of decomposition and nitrogen requirements therefore reduceing nitrogen starvation to the growing plants.

I actually used a portion of this same mulch material in my garden last year and at the end of the growing season, I tilled it into the soil. I also used it to mulch a few small veggie beds containing only one or two plants in each bed. The plants produced well and required little attention as far as water requirements. Everything else we watered daily. This in subsoil conditions and with no fertilizer imputs.

The area I intend to use this year has been fertilized and limed, a cover crop planted and horse manure/bedding incorporated last fall. I will also be useing the same area that I used the hardwood mulch in last year, with more of the same mulch material top dress applied this year. Time will tell if I am makeing headway.

White Gardens
01-21-2009, 07:18 PM
If it is not spread immediately after chipping, RCW can be windrowed. If the pile is too high or too dense, it can induce anaerobic conditions, which are very harmful after a few weeks. After three months of storage, RCW is seen more as compost and can make an excellent organic amendment but its chemical constituents and its impact on the biology of the sol is different from freshly made RCW.

RCW can be used as mulch or, better, on the soil surface. In this way, RCW is slow to evolve and does not play the same role. It serves as a mechanical barrier to drying and as a shield against UV rays which are lethal for the life beneath. It is an ecological niche for forest insects and other biotas while preventing weed sprouting and aggressively. It is possible that the long-term effect will be similar to that of surface disking. Certain farmers prefer the mulching method because it does not interfere with the life of the soil.

I read it.

That is why I was referring to turning the pile in order to get the aerobic process going again before you use it. Stack a mulch pile too high, wide, or never turn it and you have an anaerobic breakdown that you don't want.

I have used leftover and removed hardwood in my garden and have had no problems with it. Everything out of my garden tastes great and I rarely use Fertilizer or Chemical. (I do a little)

You'll definitively will make headway with everything you've done to it so far.

What kind of soil was in the garden to begin with ? Is it you're ambition to make the garden chemical free and back to a native state?

Barefoot James
01-21-2009, 07:36 PM
If you read and reread this article you will find this is probably the answer to soil transformation. The most fertile soils came from old growth OAK forests.
This all has nothing to do with the bark or trunk of big trees but the new growth that is less than 2.75 inches - this wood contains all the good stuff. Grind it down and incorporate it into the top inch (5cm's) of soil - disc it in and you will have a major component of creating REAL humus - you still may need to inoculate mycorrhizae to get the glomalin going. Basically Myco/glomalin + RWC (Ramial Wood Chips) = Humus or really good living topsoil.

We really need to start looking at forests not as timber but as gardens that each fall (after leaf drop) could be harvested - not the whole tree just the new growth (2.75 inch branches and under) - ground up and disked in.

Oaks are the best from my studies and the feed back - other good ones are sugar maples and beech. Evergreens are bad sources.

I for sure am looking into this big time. This is also a solution to farming on large scales as fields would need to get 1 inch of RWC every 4 to 5 years - very doable with the right tools and forest access.

Barefoot James
01-21-2009, 07:47 PM
White Gardens - reread it. This has nothing to do with composting it first. You have to get the fresh RCW into the soil and let the natural biology (microbes) in the soil do their thing - they will compost it for you and they will use air. This is key to RCW. Some of the most fertile crumbley soil you will find is where some tree companies empty out their chippers (storage areas).

White Gardens
01-21-2009, 09:00 PM
White Gardens - reread it. This has nothing to do with composting it first. You have to get the fresh RCW into the soil and let the natural biology (microbes) in the soil do their thing - they will compost it for you and they will use air. This is key to RCW. Some of the most fertile crumbley soil you will find is where some tree companies empty out their chippers (storage areas).

Oh no, I wasn't suggesting turning it to compost, or composting first. I was just saying from personal experience, and from the article, that it can't be stored devoid of Oxygen.

I understand the article and what they are saying about fresh material being better and I agree with what it is saying.

Kiril
01-21-2009, 09:36 PM
Interesting. Didn't read the whole thing yet, but enough to get the gist. Do have any supporting papers.

Barefoot James
01-21-2009, 10:00 PM
I kinda figured you had this going on in your yard Kiril - hence the wood chips and worm casts. Google it and there are several others who have written their experiences with RWC. Glad we could turn you on to something new.

Kiril
01-21-2009, 10:09 PM
I kinda figured you had this going on in your yard Kiril - hence the wood chips and worm casts. Google it and there are several others who have written their experiences with RWC. Glad we could turn you on to something new.

You mean that pic I posted? No, that is what my source of compost is like.

treegal1
01-21-2009, 10:35 PM
"Ramial wood" refers to twigs having less than 7 cm in diameter. They contain soluble or little-polymerized lignin, the base for soil aggregates and highly reactive humus. These small-size branches are not used as firewood, even in the poorest tropical countries. The name and description of «ramial wood» was given in 1986 (Lemieux) under the French name of «bois raméal».

DUSTYCEDAR
01-21-2009, 10:59 PM
I have tilled chips in for years with great results

treegal1
01-22-2009, 09:08 AM
my interest in wood waste started with a machine like this.

I said " they are trowing away the good parts " and instantly looked at the how do I get some part of that bark and RWC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnamTbYZVYo&feature=related

unfortunatly here we get very little hard wood, its mostly pine. but every now and then we get some logs come up and we always save the "skins" and "greens" for our selfs

phasthound
01-22-2009, 09:23 AM
my interest in wood waste started with a machine like this.

I said " they are trowing away the good parts " and instantly looked at the how do I get some part of that bark and RWC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnamTbYZVYo&feature=related

unfortunatly here we get very little hard wood, its mostly pine. but every now and then we get some logs come up and we always save the "skins" and "greens" for our selfs

That is one hell of a machine with one hell of an operator.

DUSTYCEDAR
01-22-2009, 10:38 AM
What do they use the wood for?

Barefoot James
01-22-2009, 10:56 AM
One hell of an operator. Wow - wonder if he ever crashes those poles into the cab - LOL he gets pretty close.

Many zoo animals eat that stuff - like Koala's I hope they replants - I think that stuff grows pretty fast??

treegal1
01-22-2009, 10:59 AM
What do they use the wood for?this is the part that gets funny, here they grow it for paper and (wait this is the best part) MULCH. the left overs are turned into the soil or used as fuel, or I scab some off of them every now and then if I can catch the right driver.

treegal1
01-22-2009, 11:04 AM
One hell of an operator. Wow - wonder if he ever crashes those poles into the cab - LOL he gets pretty close.

Many zoo animals eat that stuff - like Koala's I hope they replants - I think that stuff grows pretty fast?? 3 year crop is what we see,1 year in the nursery. and then they take this machine that pokes a hole and punks the tree in the ground with a shot of food and that's it until "THE MACHINE COMES" 3 yeas turn around.

James, Phill says that with over 7000 hours in the seat he has only one near miss with the cab. wind screen cost him 250$ and he used the boom to pull the cage off of it some.

Barefoot James
01-22-2009, 12:06 PM
That's the king? Does he smell good when he comes home - LOL?

treegal1
01-22-2009, 12:24 PM
OMG NO, several men living in the woods with out a shower for 2 weeks at a time. they all bathe before the drive home, so the health department does not arrest them as a bio hazard.

then I have to find the wood land animal that they always try and sneak past me, baby this or orphaned that. the rattle snake was cool. to bad the left it in there luggage

Barefoot James
01-22-2009, 12:31 PM
Arn't those Eucalyptus trees? I understand about the stink factor but the trees smell pretty good! How many acres are they doing a year?

DUSTYCEDAR
01-22-2009, 01:13 PM
WOW thats a quick turnaround

treegal1
01-22-2009, 01:23 PM
we don't do any of the growing our self's, we buy a timber contract and then do the "WORK" most of the time its in 300 acre tracts, they grow it all over north Florida and some in Ga. we have only cut eucalyptus 3-4 time over the years. most of the time its pine, or pulp wood.

TF PLUS
01-22-2009, 05:35 PM
my interest in wood waste started with a machine like this.

I said " they are trowing away the good parts " and instantly looked at the how do I get some part of that bark and RWC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnamTbYZVYo&feature=related

unfortunatly here we get very little hard wood, its mostly pine. but every now and then we get some logs come up and we always save the "skins" and "greens" for our selfs

Amazing I saw an operation similar to that on tv Most dangerous jobs

Barefoot James
01-22-2009, 08:11 PM
So Kiril what say you about Ramial Chipped Wood. You say it has merit but need more studies? Anything else? The studies I have read say the most prolific top soils come from old growth oak forrests. Pine Valley, NJ has black waters due to the humic/fulvic acids and humates ooozing from the ground. They also have tons of oak. What say you on this, RCW subject?

Kiril
01-22-2009, 08:20 PM
So Kiril what say you about Ramial Chipped Wood. You say it has merit but need more studies? Anything else?

No, I said it was interesting. Kinda is common sense (the whole green wood thing) if you think about it. I was just curious if anyone else has done studies on it for various other uses. One study is good, but until the findings can be corroborated, the results have to be taken with a grain of salt.

The studies I have read say the most prolific top soils come from old growth oak forrests.

Yes, this is usually a given when you consider the stage of succession.

http://www.geo.arizona.edu/Antevs/nats104/00lect20sucn2.gif

http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=95197&rendTypeId=36

muddstopper
01-23-2009, 12:51 PM
Been away for a day. Looks like the Ramil chip wood is spraking a little interest.

I have long used chiped wood as a mulch material around trees and shrubs. I get a couple of loads everytime they clear the power right of ways. Sometimes its small chips, somethimes big chips and sometimes firewood size. I just have never used it in a garden as a mulch material. Observations over the years has shown me that if the piles are left a lone where they are dumped, they still compost away in a year or two. The bark mulch will react much faster than the chips. This is what led me to try some bark mulch in the garden last year. By the end of the growing season, it was almost dirt so I know its breaking down. If it is breaking down it has to be releaseing nutrients to the growing plants. I have about one, maybe two loader buckets full left so this year I intend to just do a small section using onion and garlic bulbs just to satisfy my couriousity.

The question was asked what kind of soil I am working with, its subsoil that came out of the bottom of a 200ft cut for a highway project.

White Gardens
01-23-2009, 01:07 PM
Been away for a day. Looks like the Ramil chip wood is spraking a little interest.

The question was asked what kind of soil I am working with, its subsoil that came out of the bottom of a 200ft cut for a highway project.

Yikes, that doesn't sound like very good soil. Is it rocky, silty, or other.

muddstopper
01-23-2009, 09:46 PM
Mostly a gray slate mixed with red slate that has been groundup under the dozer tracks. I dug some rocks out of the patch that where so big my loader couldnt pick them off the ground and I know I can lift a 3200lb pallet of lime.

I screend out all the rocks bigger than 2inches and incorporated several loads of horse bedding mixed with the manure to get a little OM going. I was able to get a decent stand of beans, squash, and okra last year. At the end of the season, I tilled in lime and fert and then overseeded with annual ryegrass. Soil seems to be breaking up some due to excessive plant/root density,( purposely planted that way), coupled with the freezeing and thawing of this winter. I just did a shovel test and roots are going about 6 inches deep. I will turn the ryegrass over before it stems and makes seeds. I will also be adding some good compost tilled in and then plant the veggies.

I have already been thru this before on another patch of ground. There I dug the soil out 2ft deep and crushed it under the loader tracks before mixing in very old composted cow manure and pushing it back into the hole it was dug from. It took about three years of liming and rototilling to break the rocks down into something that resembled dirt, but the soil went from red to almost black and grew veggies great with zero irrigation except for nature. On that plot I used buckwheat as a covercrop to help concentrate calcium levels and clover legumes to help build organic matter and put N into the soil. We dont use large amounts of synthetic ferts, but will add P and K as well as dolomite to build up the soil levels of these missing nutrients.

treegal1
01-23-2009, 10:31 PM
OMG, mudd, you got patience like a saint.

muddstopper
01-24-2009, 12:47 PM
OMG, mudd, you got patience like a saint.


Its not patience, it more like a prisoner locked in his cell, what hes got, is what hes got, and he just has to make due the best way he can.

I wonder what kind of yeilds I could make if I lived in South West Ohio??:laugh::laugh::laugh:

ICT Bill
02-02-2009, 09:21 PM
The tips of willow branches are used as an organic root hormone for cuttings as a propagation technique
lots of good MOJO in trees, but Treegal should know that best

treegal1
02-02-2009, 09:28 PM
hes back!! I missed you Bill. did you have to step out and get the mud off your fire suit.:laugh::laugh::waving:


note to self send bill radishes

ICT Bill
02-02-2009, 09:59 PM
hes back!! I missed you Bill. did you have to step out and get the mud off your fire suit.:laugh::laugh::waving:


note to self send bill radishes

I love radishes

treegal1
02-02-2009, 10:18 PM
good I over planted and flooded my market:laugh::laugh: