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Armadillolawncare
01-21-2009, 07:58 PM
I am currently taking the required irrigation class to get my Texas Irrigators license. My instructor mentioned that a portable flow meter used to be made to use to measure water flow after installing the backflow but prior to running all pipes. He says the flow meter is no longer made and he does not where to get another. Does anyone know if a flow meter is still made to measure GPM prior to starting install? He says that the bucket method from a spigot is not effective.

Mike Leary
01-21-2009, 08:02 PM
I know, but you're not getting any help from me until you ditch the list of crap we could care less about.

hoskm01
01-21-2009, 08:07 PM
I am currently taking the required irrigation class to get my Texas Irrigators license. My instructor mentioned that a portable flow meter used to be made to use to measure water flow after installing the backflow but prior to running all pipes. He says the flow meter is no longer made and he does not where to get another. Does anyone know if a flow meter is still made to measure GPM prior to starting install? He says that the bucket method from a spigot is not effective.
Ive got a link ready for you, but I cant find the bottom of the page. Ditch the list of mowers and the link is yours.

mitchgo
01-21-2009, 08:07 PM
I'm interested to know what that is as well.

Wouldn't a DeDuct Meter do the same thing?

mitchgo
01-21-2009, 08:09 PM
Ive got a link ready for you, but I cant find the bottom of the page. Ditch the list of mowers and the link is yours.

I agree... It's only a freakin lawn mower

Mike Leary
01-21-2009, 08:13 PM
Hint............

hoskm01
01-21-2009, 08:16 PM
Hint............
One of those and a quick connect to your BFD, now thats accurate measurement. Hope hes got some pesos in his panties for that one.

Mike Leary
01-21-2009, 08:29 PM
One of those and a quick connect to your BFD, now thats accurate measurement. Hope hes got some pesos in his panties for that one.

Nope, it's even more fun than that. Got to hook it up to a flow sensor after the backflow, add a liquid-filled psi meter to the ring-around. After measurements are made, cap the ring-around. No big deal if you're a player. :cool2:

Sprinkus
01-21-2009, 08:34 PM
Whatever happened to the "thumb on the spigot" method?

Mike Leary
01-21-2009, 08:37 PM
Whatever happened to the "thumb on the spigot" method?

I believe that was covered in a earlier post. :laugh:

HokieAg07
01-21-2009, 08:51 PM
I know, but you're not getting any help from me until you ditch the list of crap we could care less about.

Ive got a link ready for you, but I cant find the bottom of the page. Ditch the list of mowers and the link is yours.

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/chrsbabr/sig.bmp

A little suggestion

Grow up guys...

hoskm01
01-21-2009, 08:56 PM
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/chrsbabr/sig.bmp

A little suggestion

Grow up guys...
Thanks, Dad.

Sprinkus
01-21-2009, 09:12 PM
I was wondrin' how to get that stuff down there!

ARGOS
01-21-2009, 09:14 PM
I was wondrin' how to get that stuff down there!

I don't see a Flo Pro on your list.

Sprinkus
01-21-2009, 09:17 PM
I don't see a Flo Pro on your list.

Traded it for the wire nut!

HokieAg07
01-21-2009, 09:30 PM
I figured you guys would like that..

But really who cares what's in those mower guy's signatures. If they get off reading each others equipment list so be it.. Its not like we have to deal with too much of that in our forum.

I love the 20,000 feet of 22 ga wire Sprinkus haha

Mike Leary
01-21-2009, 09:51 PM
who cares what's in those mower guy's signatures. If they get off reading each others equipment list so be it..

We don't need the sig; that's the point.

Armadillolawncare
01-21-2009, 10:00 PM
Any one here respond well to being told what to do? I hope to be an irrigator soon and I already spend more time in this forum then any other including the mowing forum but since you told me I had to do something other then ask to get an answer I will look else where. I have always gotten good help here before and feel that there is a lot of knowledge here. I guess you guys really are a Guild.
Thanks to michael.

DanaMac
01-21-2009, 10:07 PM
Any one here respond well to being told what to do? I hope to be an irrigator soon and I already spend more time in this forum then any other including the mowing forum but since you told me I had to do something other then ask to get an answer I will look else where. I have always gotten good help here before and feel that there is a lot of knowledge here. I guess you guys really are a Guild.
Thanks to michael.

Don't let him shoo you away. Mike's bark is worse than his bite.

Mike Leary
01-21-2009, 10:08 PM
Any one here respond well to being told what to do? I hope to be an irrigator soon and I already spend more time in this forum then any other including the mowing forum but since you told me I had to do something other then ask to get an answer I will look else where. I have always gotten good help here before and feel that there is a lot of knowledge here. I guess you guys really are a Guild.
Thanks to michael.

You are a pup on this forum; ask any question you want; we'll be there; since you're not giving us any information, but sucking it, we'll need your VISA #.

Armadillolawncare
01-21-2009, 10:09 PM
I hope the pic of my kid on one of my mowers and my website is not to offensive to members of the Irrigation Guild, if so I will remove it immediately.

Armadillolawncare
01-21-2009, 10:12 PM
To clarify I was looking for something like this.

http://www.professionalequipment.com/water-pressure-gauge-water-flow-rate-meter-995-01sku397-654/water-pressure-gauges/

Thanks for all the help everyone.

DanaMac
01-21-2009, 10:15 PM
To clarify I was looking for something like this.

http://www.professionalequipment.com/water-pressure-gauge-water-flow-rate-meter-995-01sku397-654/water-pressure-gauges/

Thanks for all the help everyone.

That's all you were looking for? I've got one in the service van. You can get one or something similar at Home Depot. Your guy doesn't know what he's talking about if he doesn't know where to get one.

DanaMac
01-21-2009, 10:16 PM
To clarify I was looking for something like this.

http://www.professionalequipment.com/water-pressure-gauge-water-flow-rate-meter-995-01sku397-654/water-pressure-gauges/

Thanks for all the help everyone.

Also - since you are in Texas, you better read up on some of the other threads regarding rules, licensing, certifying, laws, etc. before you start doing anything.

Mike Leary
01-21-2009, 10:18 PM
That's all you were looking for? I've got one in the service van. You can get one or something similar at Home Depot. Your guy doesn't know what he's talking about if he doesn't know where to get one.

Ask for "Bob", he's a ex-contractor.

HokieAg07
01-21-2009, 10:27 PM
We don't need the sig; that's the point.


Oh come on ya old man, I gave you an awesome picture showing you how to avoid all those damn lists. :hammerhead:

I just dont see the point in being an ass when somebody asks a legit question. We cant scare away everybody can we; carry on with the debauchery

Mike Leary
01-21-2009, 10:33 PM
carry on with the debauchery

Works for me. Nice RM remote.

hoskm01
01-21-2009, 10:42 PM
To clarify I was looking for something like this.

http://www.professionalequipment.com/water-pressure-gauge-water-flow-rate-meter-995-01sku397-654/water-pressure-gauges/

Thanks for all the help everyone.
Half Price. Nice sig.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vSIjV42RL._SL500_AA280_.jpg
(http://www.amazon.com/Toro-Flow-Pressure-Gauge-53351/dp/B000O5SP80)

DanaMac
01-21-2009, 10:43 PM
Oh come on ya old man, I gave you an awesome picture showing you how to avoid all those damn lists. :hammerhead:


Mike - I think he is saying that YOU can turn off EVERYONE else's sig lines. Comprende?

Kiril
01-21-2009, 11:04 PM
Hey, that contraption looks familiar. Anyone want to discuss the how it works? ;)

Armadillolawncare
01-21-2009, 11:18 PM
One thing I noticed is that it only goes up to 13 gpms. I do not think that will be enough for my intended use. After completing the plan and hydraulics for a particular job I will have my gpms & design pressure and have laid out my zones on the plan. When I show up to do the actual job the first thing I want to do is hook up the back flow and then get a gpm reading on the outlet side of the BF to make sure I actually have the gpms I built the plan around. I do not want to get everthing installed and then find out I do not actually have the gpms I thought I would. I want to catch it before I start solvent welding when I can adjust the plan and add zones if I need to. Is this the best tool for that and if not what is?

Armadillolawncare
01-21-2009, 11:32 PM
"Your guy doesn't know what he's talking about if he doesn't know where to get one."

I believe the above statement is not accurate. My instructor is a semi-retired irregator who sold his business and now consults for them and makes service calls on difficult repairs. He recieved his Texas License in 1964 and his lic. # is 22. As you might imagine he is grey haired but very spry. He is also very old school. He still hand draws every plan he makes and he made one for every job he bid. I think he does this because he is not comfortable using a computer. I believe this is why he no longer has one of these devices. When he could no longer get one from his supply house and it was no longer in the Toro catalog it became unavailable to him. When he described it in class I immediately thought I would ask on this site for some help in locating a source.
He seems to get several calls a day from other irrigators asking his advice and is alwys willing to help. If others are calling him they must think he has some knowledge. All I know for sure right now though is that he knows more then me about irrigation.

hoskm01
01-21-2009, 11:34 PM
One thing I noticed is that it only goes up to 13 gpms. I do not think that will be enough for my intended use. After completing the plan and hydraulics for a particular job I will have my gpms & design pressure and have laid out my zones on the plan. When I show up to do the actual job the first thing I want to do is hook up the back flow and then get a gpm reading on the outlet side of the BF to make sure I actually have the gpms I built the plan around. I do not want to get everthing installed and then find out I do not actually have the gpms I thought I would. I want to catch it before I start solvent welding when I can adjust the plan and add zones if I need to. Is this the best tool for that and if not what is?
For most residential work, that should just about max your system potential. Most of your meters at the street will be 5/8, 3/4 max, unless you have dedicated, upsized meters. I wouldnt design that far back in the system for much more than 13. That meter will also give you dynamic pressure at the given flow rate.


If youre gonna do bigger stuff, gotta get a bigger meter.

bicmudpuppy
01-22-2009, 01:04 AM
I'll bite and help a little bit, but first I'll do my regular whining too. I got here late tonight and didn't see the offending sig, but I can imagine. SOME of the ribbing is good natured. Some of it has to do with how you are perceived from the presentation of your question. Poor grammar smacks of the illiterate. The industry is simply full of hacks and quacks looking to make a quick buck. They are killing the industry. The "tolerance" for ignorant questions seems to have drastically dropped in the last 4 years. "Trunk Slammers" are probably to blame. Why should we GIVE of the knowledge we have sweated years for to someone who doesn't have enough respect to ask the question in an intelligent manner. Point in fact would be that the words THEN and THAN are not interchangeable. Once is a typo, twice is "I don't care, I'm just asking questions and want someone to give me all the answers".

IF your purpose is to get a flow reading after the backflow is installed, AND, your in TX where your average POC is near the curb and meter, then you can elbow up and back over the curb long enough to put a meter on the #3 test port and then measure flow using the purveyors device and a stop watch. Open the #2 shut off until the pressure drop meets what you were expecting and then time the meter. With just a little bit of luck (Do it a few times RIGHT and we might infer some skill), you will get a flow that matches what you planned for.

Waterit
01-22-2009, 01:18 AM
Your name is Armadillo, you should have thicker skin (especially when ML posts).:waving:

Have you tried the 5-gallon-bucket flow test?

::::quickly ducks down as chorizo begins to fly::::

ARGOS
01-22-2009, 01:39 AM
The industry is simply full of hacks and quacks looking to make a quick buck. They are killing the industry. The "tolerance" for ignorant questions seems to have drastically dropped in the last 4 years. "Trunk Slammers" are probably to blame.

He is trying to get his Irrigators License. Seems to me that he is due tolerance as he make his business legit. I agree that proper communication is important and shouldn't be lowered to text messaging.

As far as a five gallon bucket? Make sure its camo.

EagleLandscape
01-22-2009, 08:41 AM
I don't know how that gpm meter works... but if it also involved timing it with a watch...

couldnt you just run a 30 second test and then double the results? IE: 9gallons in 30 secs = 18 gpm?

I wouldnt design anything over 13-15gpm. You're going to be pushing too many fps in the pipe and fittings will go boom.

there is also a fps limit on pipe in texas now.

are you installing systems, or working for someone? you said you dont have your license yet, better be careful before the irrigation inspectors come hunt you down and SHUT THE PLACE DOWN

Sprinkus
01-22-2009, 09:13 AM
He recieved his Texas License in 1964 and his lic. # is 22.

Jim's a good guy but I don't necessarily agree with everything he teaches, especially not wiping the excess glue off of glue joints.
He also did not seem familiar with the use of sub-mains on large drip installations.

Oops, gotta get rid of the sig.

DanaMac
01-22-2009, 09:24 AM
I'll bite and help a little bit, but first I'll do my regular whining too. I got here late tonight and didn't see the offending sig, but I can imagine. SOME of the ribbing is good natured. Some of it has to do with how you are perceived from the presentation of your question. Poor grammar smacks of the illiterate. The industry is simply full of hacks and quacks looking to make a quick buck. They are killing the industry. The "tolerance" for ignorant questions seems to have drastically dropped in the last 4 years. "Trunk Slammers" are probably to blame. Why should we GIVE of the knowledge we have sweated years for to someone who doesn't have enough respect to ask the question in an intelligent manner. Point in fact would be that the words THEN and THAN are not interchangeable. Once is a typo, twice is "I don't care, I'm just asking questions and want someone to give me all the answers".


You put it much more eloquently than the rest of us :)

Wet_Boots
01-22-2009, 09:36 AM
You can always use the "open pipe" method to get a flow, because the water streaming from the end of an open pipe, held level, takes a shape commensurate with the size of the pipe and the flow of the water.

In the real world, I think it's a big "who freaking cares" sort of question, because backflow preventers are flow-rated the same as water meters are. How many people here push 50 gpm through a one-inch backflow preventer?

TRILAWNCARE
01-22-2009, 10:30 AM
You can always use the "open pipe" method to get a flow, because the water streaming from the end of an open pipe, held level, takes a shape commensurate with the size of the pipe and the flow of the water.

In the real world, I think it's a big "who freaking cares" sort of question, because backflow preventers are flow-rated the same as water meters are. How many people here push 50 gpm through a one-inch backflow preventer?

You could use the Time to Fill an Acre-Inch method also. :laugh:

Here is a good paper describing some different methods for calculating flow rates.

Also showing the plumb bob method Boots is describing. The vertical pipe method might be a little more practical, if the graph went down to dinky pipe sizes.

Irrigation Flow Measurement (http://www.lsuagcenter.com/NR/rdonlyres/780D6F0A-61DE-4D45-8B8F-4926E093F3F6/53894/IrrigationFlowMeasurementpub3082.pdf)

Kiril
01-22-2009, 12:21 PM
Also showing the plumb bob method Boots is describing. The vertical pipe method might be a little more practical, if the graph went down to dinky pipe sizes.

At +/- 10% accuracy, you might as well just use a bucket.

TRILAWNCARE
01-22-2009, 12:40 PM
At +/- 10% accuracy, you might as well just use a bucket.

I have seen Boots post about the open pipe measure method and use a framing square to measure. Just thought I would post the paper so every one knows exactly how it is done. Yes, a little crude and not very accurate.

Also people might wonder if you really know what you are doing if you had set up a pipe flowing full blast in the front yard and you were trying to measure the distance the water is shooting out of it with a plum bob and a ruler.


Hey, that contraption looks familiar. Anyone want to discuss the how it works? ;)

Have anything to do with differential pressure and the pressure drop proportional to the square of the flow rate through the valve?

Mike Leary
01-22-2009, 12:40 PM
Cheap and accurate..click on " Flow Meter".

www.betterwaterind.com

DanaMac
01-22-2009, 12:43 PM
Just eyeball it and call it good.

Kiril
01-22-2009, 12:45 PM
Have anything to do with differential pressure and the pressure drop proportional to the square of the flow rate through the valve?

:laugh:

Look around for a topic with regard to the Toro meter, specifically one that has been locked. ;)

TRILAWNCARE
01-22-2009, 12:49 PM
:laugh:

Look around for a topic with regard to the Toro meter, specifically one that has been locked. ;)

Should I assume that you were having friendly conversation with Boots, and this is why it was locked.

DanaMac
01-22-2009, 12:52 PM
Are you talking about this one?

The Boots and Kiril Show (http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=190807&highlight=toro+meter&page=10)

Kiril
01-22-2009, 12:53 PM
Should I assume that you were having friendly conversation with Boots, and this is why it was locked.

That would be a correct assumption. :dizzy:

Kiril
01-22-2009, 12:57 PM
Are you talking about this one?

The Boots and Kiril Show (http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=190807&highlight=toro+meter&page=10)

:laugh: That was a good one. I believe it was spill over from the one I was thinking about.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=236692

TRILAWNCARE
01-22-2009, 12:58 PM
That would be a correct assumption. :dizzy:

How did I know.

Wet_Boots
01-22-2009, 12:59 PM
I still haven't found that damn calculator. Hope the betteries don't run out and I lose the program.

But getting back to the OP, why would an instructor opine that a bucket test wouldn't work? Make it a garbage can, if you don't like the bucket's accuracy.

Mike Leary
01-22-2009, 01:00 PM
How did I know.

More quick thinking on the forum. :rolleyes:

ARGOS
01-22-2009, 01:18 PM
Are you talking about this one?

The Boots and Kiril Show (http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=190807&highlight=toro+meter&page=10)

More quick thinking on the forum. :rolleyes:

This forum never forgets.

Wet_Boots
01-22-2009, 01:28 PM
This forum never forgets.I'd forgotten that one post :) (graphic stolen from a Bugs Bunny cartoon)It does boil down to practical applications, like the three-variable supply problem. Hey, I got an equation with three quantities....http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/7366/magnetboyscrewballrr2.gif

Kiril
01-22-2009, 01:30 PM
Yes, I never underestimate your capacity to be a prick.

Wet_Boots
01-22-2009, 01:36 PM
Oh ye of tiny sense of humor - you'll have a great career as a forum moderator.

Kiril
01-22-2009, 01:39 PM
Oh ye of tiny sense of humor - you'll have a great career as a forum moderator.

Actually, I do mod a forum. If I were moderating this forum, I would delete 95% of your posts .... off-topic king that you are.

TRILAWNCARE
01-22-2009, 01:43 PM
Have anything to do with differential pressure and the pressure drop proportional to the square of the flow rate through the valve?


:laugh:

Look around for a topic with regard to the Toro meter, specifically one that has been locked. ;)

So did I get it right???????????

Wet_Boots
01-22-2009, 01:49 PM
Actually, I do mod a forum. If I were moderating this forum, I would delete 95% of your posts .... off-topic king that you are.This forum? ~ http://www.sticking_magnets_on_your_plumbing.com/forums.php/ (http://badgerbadgerbadger.com/)

Kiril
01-22-2009, 01:51 PM
So did I get it right???????????

I believe you are right on track as it definitely has something to do with differential pressure and flow through an orifice.

This is the relevant post with link to reference material.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=2396905&postcount=47

TRILAWNCARE
01-22-2009, 01:52 PM
I seen a picture of ML using his digital meter to measure the recovery rate of a cistern. Actually measuring the rate of overflow coming out of the overflow pipe near a pond or lake if I remember right.

Mike was that pipe full when you were measuring? Or did you stop up the flow for a certain amount of time and then measure the number of gallons that came out when you opened the valve.

Just how accurate would your meter be if the pipe was not full when measuring?

Kiril
01-22-2009, 01:58 PM
This forum? ~ http://www.sticking_magnets_on_your_plumbing.com/forums.php/ (http://badgerbadgerbadger.com/)

No this one: youraprick.com (http://youraprick.com)

BTW, I think it is appropriate here to finally post the video of the real boots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olm7xC-gBMY

Armadillolawncare
01-22-2009, 02:32 PM
When the instructor was asked why the bucket method is not accurate he said the something about the bucket method not accounting for the pressure or something to that effect. Keep in mind I have only had about two days of hydraulics so I may have misunderstood what he was telling us but it had to do with the bucket method not being accurate due to some sort of pressure issue.

Kiril
01-22-2009, 02:35 PM
When the instructor was asked why the bucket method is not accurate he said the something about the bucket method not accounting for the pressure or something to that effect. Keep in mind I have only had about two days of hydraulics so I may have misunderstood what he was telling us but it had to do with the bucket method not being accurate due to some sort of pressure issue.

Huh? Use a flow through pressure gauge.

Wet_Boots
01-22-2009, 02:43 PM
When the instructor was asked why the bucket method is not accurate he said the something about the bucket method not accounting for the pressure or something to that effect. Keep in mind I have only had about two days of hydraulics so I may have misunderstood what he was telling us but it had to do with the bucket method not being accurate due to some sort of pressure issue.The bucket method is as accurate as your use of a wristwatch/stopwatch is. Your line filling the bucket has a pressure gauge on it, and a gate valve between the pressure gauge and the outlet. You adjust the gate valve so that the pressure gauge has a reading you want. Then you can make the bucket test, and get a flow that matches up with the pressure-gauge reading.

Kiril
01-22-2009, 02:45 PM
The bucket method is as accurate as your use of a wristwatch/stopwatch is. Your line filling the bucket has a pressure gauge on it, and a gate valve between the pressure gauge and the outlet. You adjust the gate valve so that the pressure gauge has a reading you want. Then you can make the bucket test, and get a flow that matches up with the pressure-gauge reading.

Now why did you have to go and ruin a perfectly good opportunity for the man to work it out on his own.

Wet_Boots
01-22-2009, 02:53 PM
Now why did you have to go and ruin a perfectly good opportunity for the man to work it out on his own.If he read any of the archived threads, that was punishment enough :)

TRILAWNCARE
01-22-2009, 03:39 PM
The bucket method is as accurate as your use of a wristwatch/stopwatch is. Your line filling the bucket has a pressure gauge on it, and a gate valve between the pressure gauge and the outlet. You adjust the gate valve so that the pressure gauge has a reading you want. Then you can make the bucket test, and get a flow that matches up with the pressure-gauge reading.

:nono::nono:That's not how Sprinkler Daddy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqDARsR1Rr4)does it.......:nono::nono:

Where is his valve????? :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Wet_Boots
01-22-2009, 03:43 PM
:nono::nono:That's not how Sprinkler Daddy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqDARsR1Rr4)does it.......:nono::nono:

Where is his valve????? :laugh::laugh::laugh:Where Richard Gere keeps his gerbil.

Mike Leary
01-22-2009, 03:45 PM
I seen a picture of ML using his digital meter to measure the recovery rate of a cistern. Actually measuring the rate of overflow coming out of the overflow pipe near a pond or lake if I remember right.

Good memory. The outfall from the cistern was 4" which we bushed down to 1", hooked up the flow sensor and monitor and took note of the readings. As it turned out, the readings turned out right on the money after I put delay on the clock to account for re-charge, I never ran the cistern dry. :clapping: