Would you consider me a lowballer?

[Lawn-Scapes]

That is the question!

I have been reading some posts.. where people are charging terrific prices using their "formulars". It makes me feel as though I'm a lowballer. But.. if I used some of those formulars around here I'd probably have no accounts. So I have my prices set accordingly.

Most of you seem to agree that you should make at least $35 per hour and fortunately I do better than that hourly rate.

Here's what I mean..

I have three accounts.. 2 side by side and the other is directly across the street.. the 2 side by side are 56,000 square feet each.. the one across the street is 37,000 square feet. The 3 of them take me (by myself) 2.5 hours.

I charge $50, $50 & $45 for these accounts..

That's $60/hr...... a decent wage.. no?

Don't get me wrong.. I would love to make as much money as possible.. but if I priced these at $1.25 per square foot and added $20 to weedeat and $20 to edge.. At $100+ per cut.. I would not have them as a customer.

Lowballer or no?

[Hobart]

I bid all jobs based on proximity. We can line up 5 or more in a row if I bid $5 or $10 less than some LCO's . Hourly works out more than charging more & driving 10 min to the next job.
Eliminating drive time is not lowballing but smart business sense.

[LAWNGODFATHER]

A scrub and a lowballer are seprate things.

A scrub and a smart business man are different.

Some smart business men are lowballers because they are great at marketing and know what they need to do to make their expences.

Just like the guy everyone went off on for low priced aeration.

[HOMER]

That's all we can get around here too. Heck, you might be doing better than this part of the country. If I priced too much higher I wouldn't have to work either. I try to make it up on commercial work when and where I can. I also try to make it up by shear determination:D , no longer than 30 minutes in a residential lawn if I can help it. When I average my res.'s out it works out to 55-60 an hour.

Plumbers pay!;)

[slplow]

TSG, You are right on line with what you are charging. I read in one of the trade mags last summer that you should making $60 hr.

[kutnkru]

Tom

What you HAVE NOT taken into account is that some of those "higher" quotes that you speak of are pertaining to Commercial/Industrial type accounts which are priced differently than a homeowner with the same acreage -LOL!!!

If I were your competition and had bid those same properties based on sf alone you would not be out of a job. As a matter of fact it almost seems that for your market you are right about where you'd want to be anyhow - upper middle range pricing. ;)

If I went an absolute bare bones Mow-n-go with no trimming and using the machines to blow off their drives etc. I would have been where you are at $45.10 for the smaller account using my "Formular". For the other two neighbors giving them opposite patterns (Im not combining mowing patterns any longer) using my "Formular" once again I would have submitted a price of $68.20 each.

If these accounts wanted the trimming and edging basically figuring 10 minutes per account, I would have priced them at $55.50, $84, and $84.

Your prices aint THAT bad ol' boy. :D

[Lawn-Scapes]

Thanks for the feedback..

Kris,

I don't know. If you consider my pricing upper middle range what would your bare bones price be? $18.20 difference is not small change.

And a $34 increase would be like hitting the lottery :)

If I could get those kind of prices for my 30+ accounts I would clear $75,000/yr with 40 hour work weeks.. barely breaking a sweat ;)

[Ground Master]

Your prices seem fine for your situation. I've always thought that the less drive time the better. If you lost 1 or 2 of those yards would you still be at 60/hour?

[Lawn-Scapes]

Oh.. and I'm not that old ;)

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Around here the only benny to having commercial accounts is that they do not have the tools, knowledge, or time to do the other tasks.

You want to talk about cheaper prices, these are the ones I always talk about the numbers game on.

[Richard Martin]

I don't see how you can be a lowballer when you are comparing yourself to other operators in different areas. You would be a lowballer if you were undercutting other LCOs in your area just to get the work. For example if you know the general asking price for a job is $45.00 and you only ask $25.00 to do it then you are a lowballer.

[TOSLC]

I consider a lowballer a person who askes the customer how much the present person makes, then just beats his price regardless of the account!

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Originally posted by Richard Martin
I don't see how you can be a lowballer when you are comparing yourself to other operators in different areas. You would be a lowballer if you were undercutting other LCOs in your area just to get the work. For example if you know the general asking price for a job is $45.00 and you only ask $25.00 to do it then you are a lowballer.

If the opertunity arose, would you cut 5 of those $45 places all in a row for $40 each if they all came at once?

[kutnkru]

Originally posted by TSG
Oh.. and I'm not that old ;) I kind of figured that when you throw in that New Yawk accent and talk three times faster that it somehow JUST WOULNDT have the same effect as another southern boy sain it to you -LOL!!!

And YES ,,, I did give you my numbers:
What I would have submitted to them for a bare bones minimum as I stated would have been without trimming and edging:
37msf - $45/cut ... 56m/sf - $68/cut ... 56m/sf - $68/cut

What I would submit to them if I were bidding for mow/trim/blow:
37m/sf - $55.50/cut ... 56m/sf - $84/cut ... 56m/sf - $84/cut

Is it a big price difference??? Yeah, I'll agree but like everyone says, you dont know my market and I dont know yours. So I guess what Im trying to say is that even in my market where the numbers are probably a little bit higher you still wouldnt be scrapping the bottom of the $$$ pool with your prices driving the rest of us down with you -LOL!!!

You'd be close to middle of the bidding game which is where many like to be. I personally prefer to be kocking on the door of the high sides (upper-middle) so that if I need to adjust figures I can do so without having to drudge going to the sites.

[Richard Martin]

LAWNGODFATHER wrote:
..............................
If the opertunity arose, would you cut 5 of those $45 places all in a row for $40 each if they all came at once?
..............................

Nope. Almost all of my work is within a small radius of my house. I actually like to get a break in between jobs so driving for 5 minutes doesn't bother me. I give no multiple house discounts.

[LAWNGODFATHER]

I didn't say discount.

A smart business man would. Does that still make him a lowballer?

BTW Aren't you one whom is always asking for more work?

[sunlawn]

$60 an hour on average. Nothing starts less than $15.

[1MajorTom]

Quote: BTW Aren't you one whom is always asking for more work?

I have never seen Richard Martin saying that he needs more work. From what I have read about him, he seems to run a sound business and offers a lot of advice on equipment repair questions etc, on this forum.
Him asking for work? Nah!

[odin]

I agree with lgf a smart businessman shouldnt be confused with a lowballer.
The lco's around here who do this full time are not the real problem its the part timmers and dudes driveing around with mowers stuck out their car trunks.
Like the man said its a free country they want to work their ass off for a couple cases of beer more power to em.
There are 4 of us to divide the profits so some guys can charge less than us .
We have less expense than a lot of companies because the 4 of us do all the work.
We have no worker's comp and health insuranse to buy thats a big difference there.
But just because we dont have those expenses will not enter in the picture when bidding jobs .
We go a better job than a lot of the guys who send out a crew of mexicans do because we are doing our own work

My way of thinking is we should get top dollar for top of the line work.
That said a one man solo with less expense bidding 5$ less for a property is in my opinion smart business.
Now if a guy bids 20 $ less just to get the job thats lowballing

[Richard Martin]

LAWNGODFATHER wrote:
...........................
BTW Aren't you one whom is always asking for more work?
...........................

Show me one, single, solitary post where I have ever asked for advice on getting more work or where I complained about not having enough work.

I am very comfortable with the amount of customers I have now. Do I need more? No. Will I take more? Yes.

LAWNGODFATHER also wrote:
...........................
A smart business man would. Does that still make him a lowballer?
...........................

Because I don't give that kind of reduced rate (read discount, same thing) does that make me not a smart businessman? No. I am in the same exact spot as the dealers that are discussed in another thread on this board. Why give a reduced rate when I don't have to? Any additional customers that I get are just the whipped cream on top of the American Pie.

The scenario that you gave was a volume discount, that is completely different from the scenario that I gave.

[Lawn-Scapes]

I kind of figured that when you throw in that New Yawk accent and talk three times faster that it somehow JUST WOULNDT have the same effect as another southern boy sain it to you -LOL!!!

Well.. being an ex-New Yawka I hadta defend myself.. an' show a little attitude. You know what I'm tawkin' about???? ;)

Again.. Thanks for the feedback. To tell you the truth I'm not exactly sure what rate is for this market. I believe the prices should be a little higher but there are a lot of (I hate to categorize.. but) red-necks here and it's hard to guage. Even some of the established LCOs seem to be too low. After 2 years back here in MD.. I have a decent client base and will try to bid a little higher and see what comes..

Later

[johnhenry]

Job pricing is one of the hardest aspects of the job.There are so many variables to list. But one thing for sure .No matter how low you bid there will be someone lower.I always tell potential customers before I bid I sell myself to them .Not to settle for second best.Then when I bid it always near the top end of prices

[heygrassman]

If the opertunity arose, would you cut 5 of those $45 places all in a row for $40 each if they all came at once?

A smart business man would.

Don Godfather:

This is a good thread..Hypothetically you bis all @ $40 then 2 or 3 drop off to Joe Scrub, do you leave the others at $40. Noting from the original example you have 2.5 hours in to complete all 3?? If so, are you banking on additional work Aeration, aps, etc to make more money?

Appreciate the thoughts...

jf

[Hobart]

If you bid low you're not going to loose any to Joe scrub & if any do bail you should have built up enough customers on the street so it doesn't matter.
Bid 3 prices for every cutting contract (high, med & low level service) & you will get almost every job you bid.

[LAWNGODFATHER]

I made sure I pointed out a smart business decision, not a lowballer.

Anyone who turns work away like that I would consider crazy, but that's my point of view.

I always "hope" for extra work out of every single customer.

[kutnkru]

Originally posted by Hobart
... (high, med & low level service) & you will get almost every job you bid.This is excatly why Sears has lasted as long as they have!!! Theres a price range for every shopper. ;)

[proline32]

What are you using for mowing to get well over 100,000 square feet mowed in only 2.5 hours? That is a fair amount of area to mow that fast...... based on your footages I am charging about 168 bucks for the 56,000 sq footers at 3.00 per thousand sq feet. Even if you charged $1.25 per 1000 sq feet that is still around $70.00 dollars. Maybee I'm just to high? But you must be using a large machine to mow that fast?

[Lawn-Scapes]

60" Lazer Z is all...

$3/k would be nice.. I would make $100,000 (solo) easily!!

Where is 98383? I'm moving :)

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Originally posted by proline32
What are you using for mowing to get well over 100,000 square feet mowed in only 2.5 hours? That is a fair amount of area to mow that fast...... based on your footages I am charging about 168 bucks for the 56,000 sq footers at 3.00 per thousand sq feet. Even if you charged $1.25 per 1000 sq feet that is still around $70.00 dollars. Maybee I'm just to high? But you must be using a large machine to mow that fast?

Pardon me, but a 60" ZTR at 80% efficantcy will do 4.5 acres per an hour.

And 2.30 acres should be a breeze to do in an hours time solo.:D

I'm with TSG Heck I could double my income in using the same amount of time.

[proline32]

I was just curious, It didn't connect that you would use that machine and now I can see the productivity end of your math.

98383 is the silverdale washington area, but realisticly I try to get about 3.00 per 1000 feet for large yards for a mow and trimming. I try to get 4.00 to 4.50 for smaller yards and for really small lawns I try to get about 7.00 to 9.00 per 1000 but my absolute minimum is $21.70 for a visit. As far as mowing alone I try to get $1.75 per 1000 sq ft for anything over 1/4 acre. Now truthfully I don't get that many large yards any more because I do charge a fairly high price( at least I think so) but it's not worth it if you can't make money on it so I generally gravitate to doing smaller yards nowdays, But every once in a while I get lucky, Alot of LCO's around here just won't bother with large lawns and the under the table guys don't have the equipt to do large yards.

Hmmm, maybee I need to look into getting me a 60' ZTR Largest deck I have is a 44.