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zimmatic
01-25-2009, 12:30 AM
I took on a town home complex last year. 36 zones, approx 15-20 heads on a zone. PGP's almost all nozzled at 6.The system has many problems it is about 10 years old now. The last problem to happen was the booster pump failed, and it needs to be replaced this year.

The senerio of the dog house is.
no pump was orginaly installed when the system was installed. The main line is 55psi with a 2" line.
The 2" line goes into a 1.5" water meter. The 1.5" water meter goes into a 2" rpz Then takes a 90 degree turn reduced down to 1.5" into the pump. (flint and walling 2hp 2 stage centrifical 120volt) The pump discharge is 1.25" then back into a 2" main line. There are some 90 degree elbows in there.
The problem is the pump didnt want to start even though the relay was engaged and then other times it started without a problem. I figure the starter kicked in and out and finnaly became so weak that it failed. When the pump ran it was very HOT to the touch, I havent had pumps that seemed to run that hot.

The reason I say it didnt have a booster pump is because the orginal hight of the 2" water line and the 2" irrigation main line are the same height and it looks as if the pump was an after thought due to all the odd fittings to make the pump work/fit into the confined area.

I contacted flint and walling and they thought the pump was haveing a tough time opperating, was because the surge of water that took place in that split second from when a valve opened to when the pump turned on was making the pump work hard. Not only that but since the systems zones seem to big for the amount of water supplied there wasnt enough back force.
Their suggestion was
to route the water around the pump. Meaning from the rpz go directly to the irrigation mainline, with a check valve in that line. but before the check valve put a tee in line and run that to the pump, then the pump discarge would tee after the other side of the check valve. Then when the pump turned on it would build enough pressure to close the check valve and the water would flow from the rpz to the pump to the system. The pump would also run on 220v
I know the system has many many problems but this hoa only wants to see water comming out of the sprinklers. I try in vain to have them remodel or very least have the zones re nozzled and they say no.

I want to replace the pump with another f/w 3hp 3 stage. However, I am open to suggestions. I only want to do this one time

I know it was a long read and may not make sense so I will try to answer the ??ns However, please offer some solid advice.

mitchgo
01-25-2009, 03:15 AM
What kind of Back flow is your rpz?

How Old is the Booster pump ? Could it be failing due to age?
Personally I would try one zone with reduced nozzles with out the pump to see how it handles. But if the client doesn't want that go with what he wants.

EagleLandscape
01-25-2009, 08:30 AM
If the pump is getting a surge problem, check the controller and see if you have like a Zone:Zone delay, or a Pump:Zone delay. That way the clock will turn the pump on, let it build in the line, and 5 seconds later or so the valve will turn on. That;s also a good thing with those larger pipe sizes, you have large volume of water that you need to push, better fill it up.

zimmatic
01-25-2009, 09:46 AM
The controllers are Irritrol total control 24 station outdoor controllers."they look orginal to the system"
The pump start relay is a hunter PSR -22
The RPZ is a Wilkins 975XL 2"
The pump was 4 years old and only worked 6 months out of a year.
There is also NOT a master valve on the system

Wet_Boots
01-25-2009, 10:44 AM
You might put a master valve on the system, downstream of the pump. Then you could add a pressure tank to the pump setup, and control the booster pump by way of a pressure switch.

Sprinkus
01-25-2009, 11:55 AM
Have you checked the check valves in the RP? I've recently had two jobs in a row where the check valves were getting hung up, which caused a restriction in the flow to the system.
If possible I would wire the pump for 220v.
The advice from Flint & Walling looks good, in fact I've done this on several large pumps systems before. Just make sure the check valves flow labels aren't installed wrong. (This actually happened to me with some Crispin silent check valves)

zimmatic
01-25-2009, 04:49 PM
The Rp was rebuilt,and tested last spring.
Sprinkus, so that does work. Did you have the same issues I had?

Sprinkus
01-25-2009, 10:09 PM
The Rp was rebuilt,and tested last spring.
Sprinkus, so that does work. Did you have the same issues I had?

In my case the systems were spec'd that way, but it makes sense.

In your case it seems to me like that pump should be putting out some serious pressure to the heads unless there is a restriction or the impellers are worn.
Also, I've never run a 2 hp pump on 110 before and I wouldn't recommend it unless the wiring and associated circuits are beefy enough to handle it.
Hmmm, one other thing I've rarely seen is a water meter that has broken parts in it, which caused a restriction.
I'd still check the checks, just to eliminate that from the list of possible problems.

mitchgo
01-25-2009, 10:58 PM
Hmmm, one other thing I've rarely seen is a water meter that has broken parts in it, which caused a restriction.

The RP is taking away 7-10psi per check.. so at 55 psi being already at the start reduced down to possible 35 psi.

Install a double check if you can if you are still have issues after the new pump

zimmatic
01-25-2009, 11:19 PM
I never took a pressure sample it was written on the 2" main line before the meter The psi was also confirmed from the city since they check the rpz when the meter gets reinstalled each season. 35psi would be close since when the pump isnt on the sprinklers are only 3/4 of the way up, on the closest zone to the poc
Which ever pump I reinstall it will be wired at 220v

bicmudpuppy
01-26-2009, 01:44 AM
If the original 115V wiring was installed undersized, that could cause EVERYTHING to run hot. The wire, the breaker, and the pump. Wired for 115V, how many amps is that pumps max draw? I would bet that you don't have 10gauge wire to the pump and experience says that a ONE HP single phase pump wired for 115V needs 10gauge wire minimum unless your breaker box is right there with the pump. A pressure tank would help, but to make any significant difference on a 2" line, it would have to have some size to it. A pressure switch, instead of or in series with the pump start might make a big difference. What kind of pressure did you have with the pump running? Was it consistent? or surging? A restriction anywhere before the pump could cause the pump problem. Restricted RP, Restricted Meter, Drop in service from the water company. A meter restriction can be a curb stop partially closed. OR the meter partially off. Bigger isn't always better. If 2 HP was working prior to the pump going bad, 3HP might be over kill and create more problems than the extra power fixes.

zimmatic
01-26-2009, 08:34 AM
The wire to the pump was 12 gauge. The power/circity breaker is 5' away. Flint and walling also talked about the amps. I cannot remember what they suggest was the appropriate amp draw.
You all will have to forgive me I did not take a pressure reading on the discharge side of the pump since it was working. Again they just wanted to see water comming out of the sprinklers. However, when the pump was running it was clear that the performance of the pgps was good meaning they would throw a minimum of 30'.
I have the rpz and water meter in my basement I will check them for restrictions in the next day.

It sounds like the concensious so far is to check for restricitons, amp draw, and appropriate wiring. Any other suggestions?

Waterit
01-26-2009, 08:41 AM
I've had to put booster pumps in on a few city-water installs. We use a straight pump-start also, with 220VAC on a 20A breaker, #12 wire. If memory serves me right, a 2HP pump should draw 10.2 amps on 220.

The only issue we had was when the water supply was restricted because of high demand or the loss of a pump on the purveyor's side.

Might be a good idea to check the GPM and PSI between the meter and backflow and between the backflow and pump at different times of day to get a feel for any variances in your water supply.

zimmatic
01-26-2009, 08:59 AM
Thanks for all the suggestions, It confirms my validates my thoughts on this issue.

Wet_Boots
01-26-2009, 09:23 AM
I like pressure switches controlling small boosters, because they protect against deadheading, when a zone valve fails to open. Also, having a minimum pressure downstream of the pump gives it something to push against. The pressure tank can be a tiny one, like you see on heating systems.

Sprinkus
01-26-2009, 01:06 PM
Another way to control/protect the pump, rather than using a pressure switch/tank combination, is to use a flow switch (http://www.watts.com/pdf/ES-FS20.pdf).

Wet_Boots
01-26-2009, 01:16 PM
Much beyond a 2 or 3 inch line, and it would make sense to look at flow switches. Either way, the pump control relay would no longer figure in as it presently does.

zimmatic
01-26-2009, 02:08 PM
Boots please explain more on the flow switch Idea verses the pump start relay How would it benifit me in this situation

Wet_Boots
01-26-2009, 02:15 PM
Flow switches would come into play with larger pipe sizes, because of the mass of the moving water, and the forces it creates, makes things more complicated. For 2-inch pipe, you wouldn't be worrying about it.

bicmudpuppy
01-26-2009, 04:04 PM
I've had to put booster pumps in on a few city-water installs. We use a straight pump-start also, with 220VAC on a 20A breaker, #12 wire. If memory serves me right, a 2HP pump should draw 10.2 amps on 220.



That sounds close to me, BUT figure nearly double that draw trying to do it with 115v! And your not going to be safe with 12 gauge wire with that kind of draw. If he can convert it to 220, I bet the pump runs better (If the windings aren't toast from overheating) and the electric bill drops significantly.

bicmudpuppy
01-26-2009, 04:08 PM
Okay, made me look. I went to the manufacturer's site. 2HP motor draws 12.5A @ 230V, but 25A @ 115V . 25Amps on 12 gauge wire is a big NO NO!! Was it on a 30Amp Breaker?

TRILAWNCARE
01-26-2009, 04:15 PM
That sounds close to me, BUT figure nearly double that draw trying to do it with 115v! And your not going to be safe with 12 gauge wire with that kind of draw. If he can convert it to 220, I bet the pump runs better (If the windings aren't toast from overheating) and the electric bill drops significantly.

Perhaps if the pump is multi-voltage. The motor windings are wired for 230V but is only being supplied with 115V. As indicated by the OP.

This would explain the increase in heat and the low performance. A motor wired this way will run at half speed.

TRILAWNCARE
01-26-2009, 04:20 PM
Okay, made me look. I went to the manufacturer's site. 2HP motor draws 12.5A @ 230V, but 25A @ 115V . 25Amps on 12 gauge wire is a big NO NO!! Was it on a 30Amp Breaker?

Simple ohms law. Doubling the voltage will half the amperage or current.

132953

Wet_Boots
01-26-2009, 04:26 PM
I think at half-voltage, it might not run at all.

TRILAWNCARE
01-26-2009, 04:30 PM
I think at half-voltage, it might not run at all.

It will run but not very good.

If you look at the factory specs for the motor, they come from the factory wired for 230V. If the windings were not changed this would be a huge problem.

Look under Single Phase Motor Data 60HZ Chart C Factory Connected Motor Voltage

http://www.flintandwalling.com/pdfdocs/INSTRUCTIONS/132934%20FW0154%20Booster%20Pump.pdf

Wet_Boots
01-26-2009, 04:36 PM
If you connect a 24VAC clock motor to 120 volts, it will run, for a very brief time. :)

TRILAWNCARE
01-26-2009, 04:39 PM
If you connect a 24VAC clock motor to 120 volts, it will run, for a very brief time. :)

Hook 230V too a motor that is wired for 115V and you will have a problem also. :laugh::laugh:

TRILAWNCARE
01-26-2009, 05:00 PM
ZIMMATIC take a look at your motor and see were the motor winding wires are connected inside the connection box on the motor. There should be a wiring diagram on the motor that will tell you were to connect which wires for the voltage you are using.

You can look at the wiring diagram on these installation instructions also. Look at figure 8 on page 7 of the PDF. Make sure your red and gray wires are not on terminal B if you are supplying the motor with 115V.

http://www.flintandwalling.com/pdfdocs/INSTRUCTIONS/132934%20FW0154%20Booster%20Pump.pdf

12ga wire would be the correct size wire for the motor if it were wired for 230V. If supplied with 115V then the motor should be wired with 10ga wire at the distance you described.

zimmatic
01-26-2009, 05:29 PM
The last page of posts was close to the same discussion that I had With F&W. It is multi volt pump could be a 120 or 220. It was wired at 120v with 12gauge wire. Im sorry but I cant remember what amp breaker it was on, however I know I was going to need to replace it to a larger on. This all happened around the beginging oct, so memory is fuzzy. I need an electrician to rewire it correctly,either way the new pump will be wired @ 220v. It was was wired at 120v the wire and breaker need to be replaced since the wire was 12/2 romenex and not direct burial either.

Waterit
01-26-2009, 09:40 PM
That sounds close to me, BUT figure nearly double that draw trying to do it with 115v! And your not going to be safe with 12 gauge wire with that kind of draw. If he can convert it to 220, I bet the pump runs better (If the windings aren't toast from overheating) and the electric bill drops significantly.

That was my point - double the voltage uses half the amps. I didn't look at F&W's site for the motor specs, when I came up with the 10.2 I was thinking of a Sta-Rite 2HP with an A.O. Smith motor, which isn't dual-voltage anyway.

bicmudpuppy
01-26-2009, 09:47 PM
The last page of posts was close to the same discussion that I had With F&W. It is multi volt pump could be a 120 or 220. It was wired at 120v with 12gauge wire. Im sorry but I cant remember what amp breaker it was on, however I know I was going to need to replace it to a larger on. This all happened around the beginging oct, so memory is fuzzy. I need an electrician to rewire it correctly,either way the new pump will be wired @ 220v. It was was wired at 120v the wire and breaker need to be replaced since the wire was 12/2 romenex and not direct burial either.

It is crap like this that I hate even more than the stoopid HO questions. If you already had the answer from a competent tech support system, why play 20 questions here about what MIGHT be wrong?? They told you the wire was undersized. They told you you needed a bigger breaker AND from that you either knew or were told the way it was wired was incorrect to. So, WTF was the orginal question? Something about the pump manufacture suggesting it was surges in connection with the pump start, etc.?? If you KNOW the installation was crap and faulty, why don't we fix what MUST be fixed first? Especially before we talk about re-plumbing, ect.

TRILAWNCARE
01-27-2009, 12:09 AM
The last page of posts was close to the same discussion that I had With F&W. It is multi volt pump could be a 120 or 220. It was wired at 120v with 12gauge wire. Im sorry but I cant remember what amp breaker it was on, however I know I was going to need to replace it to a larger on. This all happened around the beginging oct, so memory is fuzzy. I need an electrician to rewire it correctly,either way the new pump will be wired @ 220v. It was was wired at 120v the wire and breaker need to be replaced since the wire was 12/2 romenex and not direct burial either.

Just because the motor was wired to 115V supply voltage, does not mean that who ever did the wiring switched the motor winding wires to accept 115volts. Your basically saying that who ever wired the motor originally did not know what they were doing by using the wrong size and type of wire in the first place.

So should I take it you have not looked to see if the motor windings is still wired for 230 volts as it would have come from the factory, and the winding wires may have never been switched to accept 115V perhaps fixing your problem. Even after the factory tech brought this up. Or does your reference to it being wired to 120V mean that the winding wires were changed??????

We already knew from you that the supply voltage is 115V. I guess what you wrote could be taken two different ways but is not very clear which way I should interpret it.

zimmatic
01-27-2009, 07:59 AM
Sorry of any confusion on the this subject. I wanted to get diffrent views on this matter. F&W suggested some of the same ideas that were expressed here, I wasnt completely confident that they were correct. So if I go to work and did exactly what they told me and another issue came up---then what. Buy asking the questions I did and reciving all the good Ideas and information it will alow me to work through possible other issues that may come. When it is time to activate this system and an issue arises I am not going to pull up lawnsite to ask how to fix it. Thats what I am doing now. In my humble opinion I was very lucky to get a tech at F&W that came up with the idea's they did. I would assume there is understanding on this site that not all tech, or sales support from companies with-in the irrigation world is always stellar. Again, that is why I asked the questions I did, to pull from the vast experinces from lawnsite irrigation members to validate of invaliade the idea's of the tech's suggestions. My questions have again been answered. Thank you,

Sprinkus
01-27-2009, 08:11 AM
Git a rope!
Or a length of romex! :hammerhead:

I guess at this point no one can even be sure if the electrical circuit really is 110v.

TRILAWNCARE
01-27-2009, 01:29 PM
Sorry of any confusion on the this subject. I wanted to get diffrent views on this matter. F&W suggested some of the same ideas that were expressed here, I wasnt completely confident that they were correct. So if I go to work and did exactly what they told me and another issue came up---then what. Buy asking the questions I did and reciving all the good Ideas and information it will alow me to work through possible other issues that may come. When it is time to activate this system and an issue arises I am not going to pull up lawnsite to ask how to fix it. Thats what I am doing now. In my humble opinion I was very lucky to get a tech at F&W that came up with the idea's they did. I would assume there is understanding on this site that not all tech, or sales support from companies with-in the irrigation world is always stellar. Again, that is why I asked the questions I did, to pull from the vast experinces from lawnsite irrigation members to validate of invaliade the idea's of the tech's suggestions. My questions have again been answered. Thank you,

Well please let us all know when you do fire it up what you find out. If it was a restriction, worn pump impeller, bearing, low voltage, improper wired motor windings, junk motor or a combination of any.

Wet_Boots
01-27-2009, 01:59 PM
I suspect Stagnant Pressure.....

Mike Leary
01-27-2009, 02:20 PM
I suspect Stagnant Pressure.....

Which is common on this forum.

bicmudpuppy
01-27-2009, 02:51 PM
I felt that coming. I really did. I just KNEW that was going to come up in one of these threads. I was really surprised it wasn't mentioned when some of the guys were amazed we could do 100+ posts arguing with a 14 year old :) They didn't realize we could do closer to 300+ in just a day or two with a good Troll.

wab1234
01-27-2009, 04:15 PM
Is the o.p. sure it is running on 110 if he tested from the motor casing to a lead it would lead 115. At 25 amps unless it was a 30 amp breaker it would blow regularly. 12 gauge wire i would say it is 220 already. Make sure you're measuring from lead to lead, You might already know this but if you were measuring the volts why not the amps which are more relevant for performance then volts.