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Kiril
01-27-2009, 10:53 AM
Due to recent discussion, this would be a good time to start a thread with regard to sustainable/organic thatch management.

There are 3 possibilities that come immediately to mind.


Compost
Compost tea
Molasses or other appropriate microbial stimulant


I see using the above, either alone, or various combinations, along with grass recycling, as a very effective means for managing thatch.

I believe I have some papers on this somewhere if anyone is interested.

Please feel free to contribute your ideas, experience and methodology.

bicmudpuppy
01-27-2009, 11:51 AM
Due to recent discussion, this would be a good time to start a thread with regard to sustainable/organic thatch management.

There are 3 possibilities that come immediately to mind.


Compost
Compost tea
Molasses or other appropriate microbial stimulant


I see using the above, either alone, or various combinations, along with grass recycling, as a very effective means for managing thatch.

I believe I have some papers on this somewhere if anyone is interested.

Please feel free to contribute your ideas, experience and methodology.

You DO like that word sustainable, don't you ;) One point we will never agree on. I'm here to provide a product, the only sustainable part of that is if people will dig down into that spot they keep their hard earned money in and part with it. Supply and demand will force "sustainable". I'm interested in the organic approach because I believe we have reached a point that is no longer optional. To be a "good steward", of both the land and the resources of the client, one must use the results that provide the best answers. AND, I know I've dropped in to visit in a forum where that statement will be taken politically. It wasn't meant to be. I have believed for years that an organic approach is better management. You won't find me going totally non-synthetic. Price per pound, managing 65 acres of golf turf, ammonium sulfate can't be competed with as a nitrogen source (maybe some of you can convince me I'm wrong, but don't just tell me I'm wrong)

From an organic stand point, how many of you are familiar with Milorganite as a product or the very similar product (I can't remember the name right this instant) that comes out of Texas. It take a lot more product in an application, but I was pleasantly surprised last summer to find out that when doing the math as cost per pound of actual N, it was cheaper than almost all my other options. I wanted it for a fall/winterizing app that is traditionally a slow release product of some form. I felt that the Milorganite was an excellent option for that purpose. This is a thatch topic, my situation is fairly thick thatch from poor maintenance practices before me on a soil that is mostly sand.

phasthound
01-27-2009, 12:22 PM
From an organic stand point, how many of you are familiar with Milorganite as a product or the very similar product (I can't remember the name right this instant) that comes out of Texas. It take a lot more product in an application, but I was pleasantly surprised last summer to find out that when doing the math as cost per pound of actual N, it was cheaper than almost all my other options. I wanted it for a fall/winterizing app that is traditionally a slow release product of some form. I felt that the Milorganite was an excellent option for that purpose. This is a thatch topic, my situation is fairly thick thatch from poor maintenance practices before me on a soil that is mostly sand.

We'd be glad to help you out with a good bridge product program. Also you might be interested in Aux-N-ite, biosolids with plant auxins.

Kiril
01-27-2009, 01:05 PM
Well, I'm not going to get into the sustainable talk with you again since we have already been down that path. The way I see it, if you are going to insist on maintaining a site that is inherently unsustainable, I might as well help you find the most sustainable way to do that. :)

I use the word "sustainable" as a kind of buffer word between hard core organic and hard core synthetic. Will a "sustainable" solution always be "organic" ... not necessarily. Will an "organic" solution always be sustainable .... once again not necessarily.

Now do you see why I use "sustainable"? My job is to find ways to manage land in the most sustainable fashion (i.e. lowest economic and environmental impact). As you know, this includes irrigation, but also includes soil and plant management.

With respect to your biosolid question, I expect you will get multiple benefits from this (thatch reduction, N and other nutrients, increased soil fertility, etc...), and if it completely satisfies your N-budget, all the better.

I would also consider mixing the biosolid with a locally produced compost to further reduce your overhead ..... and make it more sustainable ;)

DUSTYCEDAR
01-27-2009, 06:03 PM
aeration helps

JDUtah
01-27-2009, 06:18 PM
Refrain from using pesticides that kill earthworms. If you must, spot treat.

Avoid blanket treatment of fungicides.

Rarely use preventative pesticides, especially insecticides and fungicides.

Use herbicides that are proven susceptible to microbial degradation.

JDUtah
01-27-2009, 06:30 PM
Apply fresh vermicompost containing worm eggs.

NattyLawn
01-27-2009, 06:51 PM
Apply fresh vermicompost containing worm eggs.

Am I wrong that red wigglers commonly used in vermicomposting don't prefer the garden or lawn environment?

DUSTYCEDAR
01-27-2009, 07:00 PM
from what i have read they dont like it tooo dry

JDUtah
01-27-2009, 07:06 PM
I thought so too, but someone on this thread a while back mentioned it didn't matter?

Maybe earthworm (nightcrawler) vermicompost? Harder to produce, but more applicable to an actual "thatch problem"?

bicmudpuppy
01-27-2009, 07:24 PM
I thought so too, but someone on this thread a while back mentioned it didn't matter?

Maybe earthworm (nightcrawler) vermicompost? Harder to produce, but more applicable to an actual "thatch problem"?

Except you would not believe the hassles you get with golf turf over worm casts :( I cringe and scream every time somebody asks what to do to prevent/reduce worms. If you must do something about them, I recommend DE or quarried (read that angular) sand top dressings. I treated 4A for white grub late last fall. Only reason I treated was to stop the blasted skunks from tearing up turf and to stop the raccoons before the got started. (major nightmare)

JDUtah
01-27-2009, 07:29 PM
Except you would not believe the hassles you get with golf turf over worm casts :( I cringe and scream every time somebody asks what to do to prevent/reduce worms. If you must do something about them, I recommend DE or quarried (read that angular) sand top dressings. I treated 4A for white grub late last fall. Only reason I treated was to stop the blasted skunks from tearing up turf and to stop the raccoons before the got started. (major nightmare)

Golf turf is another monster altogether.

For a golf course
Heavy CT = less fungicide = more beneficial fungus = more thatch consumption = less thatch problem.

Have you read the CT study that was done on a golf course in California back in 2000?... it was posted here some time ago.

Here it is...
http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=115077&d=1216694383

treegal1
01-27-2009, 08:04 PM
from where I am at red worms in the lawn, eh not the best idea in my area. and say earth worm to a GC super and they will 1) hit you in the eye 2)RUN 3) spray you down with some sort of "cide".

now tea and GC's go hand and hand, until you get the OM past 5% then they start to talk about "play" and "roll". but most GC's tend to bag any ways so.....

residential lawns. yeah add some C(molasses) to the thatch(N) and your headed down the path of sustainability.....
and adding worms( we like a tropical burrowing type) and your again headed down the path of sustainability.....

and bio solids are great for any lawn, even the GC's, if you can get a greens grade that will spread well.


just one thing that kiril may answer for me/us. is surface drying a part of a thatch problem and is there a way to remedy this with out going nuts with the water schedule???

treegal1
01-27-2009, 08:12 PM
one more thing!!! DE WILL NOT KILL RED WORMS!!!

I lace my bed with DE all the time to control other un wanteds, HAVE NOT KILLED ONE OF THE 7 MILLION RED WORMS YET!!!!!!

treegal1
01-27-2009, 09:21 PM
sustainable sustainable sustainable sustainable sustainable sustainable
sustainable sustainable sustainable sustainable
sustainable sustainable

Tim Wilson
01-27-2009, 09:48 PM
Am I wrong that red wigglers commonly used in vermicomposting don't prefer the garden or lawn environment?

Reds are fine in a raised garden bed or vegetable patch or greenhouse where you get lots of dead matter for them to eat but not the best for turf. Night crawlers is what you want. The North American/European variety not African. I do get some red worms in my hayfield but they are a different variety.

treegal1
01-27-2009, 10:15 PM
Reds are fine in a raised garden bed or vegetable patch or greenhouse where you get lots of dead matter for them to eat but not the best for turf. Night crawlers is what you want. The North American/European variety not African. I do get some red worms in my hayfield but they are a different variety.
earthworm Taxonomy, thats a new thread, and we are going to need some real help. I have been counting rings and clitellum for as long as I can think and its like watching the stars go by............but Tim made the same point that I did, in that you want a native( Kiril don't kill me for that one)burrowing hardy worm...

JDUtah
01-27-2009, 10:22 PM
earthworm Taxonomy, thats a new thread, and we are going to need some real help. I have been counting rings and clitellum for as long as I can think and its like watching the stars go by............but Tim made the same point that I did, in that you want a native( Kiril don't kill me for that one)burrowing hardy worm...

Which leads us back to abstaining from anything that would hurt the worms... and adding om for them to eat...

I can't find it but I took a pic of a lawn a couple months after its first 1/4" compost topdressing. I cut out the sod for a flower bed and rolled it up. I couldn't believe how many worm holes there were... prolly 3-4 per square foot. Nothing done to the lawn except no pesticides the entire season and one compost topdressing. It was cool to see. I'll look for the pics...

treegal1
01-27-2009, 10:28 PM
and that takes us back to compost, and then further to the organic mater, and the microbes and, and and. its like a circle of life. wait it is the circle of life, cuz we all turn to compost when we die


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s411ajc7F8M

JDUtah
01-27-2009, 10:43 PM
and that takes us back to compost, and then further to the organic mater, and the microbes and, and and. its like a circle of life. wait it is the circle of life, cuz we all turn to compost when we die


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s411ajc7F8M

That song makes me smile. :)

Kiril
01-27-2009, 10:57 PM
just one thing that kiril may answer for me/us. is surface drying a part of a thatch problem and is there a way to remedy this with out going nuts with the water schedule???

Water management will make a difference. Water is not only a universal solvent, but a universal life promoter. :)

If you have the ability, keeping the thatch moist after compost/ct/biosolid application will help promote faster decomposition. The proper water management program really depends on the site and soils you are dealing with, and how quickly you want to deal with your thatch. Ideally, you maintain the turf using any of the mentioned methods so you keep the thatch under control before it becomes a significant problem. When it gets too thick it becomes a problem, as most all of you probably know. A soil profile will tell you alot, and a good verti-mow before your compost application wouldn't hurt in situations where you have a significant thatch layer.

Funny ... today I was working in an orchard that used to have alot of native grasses and had build up a significant thatch layer over the years. In the areas where I had removed the thatch and applied compost over the past couple of years, the soil was in great shape.

The soil under the remaining thatch was in poor shape and was significantly dryer than the other soil even though we are in the rainy season. The rate at which it is breaking down on its own is extremely slow (i.e. no compost or supplemental water). Needless to say, this is a good example of what thatch can do to a soil.

JDUtah
01-27-2009, 11:00 PM
Which leads us back to abstaining from anything that would hurt the worms... and adding om for them to eat...

I can't find it but I took a pic of a lawn a couple months after its first 1/4" compost topdressing. I cut out the sod for a flower bed and rolled it up. I couldn't believe how many worm holes there were... prolly 3-4 per square foot. Nothing done to the lawn except no pesticides the entire season and one compost topdressing. It was cool to see. I'll look for the pics...

OK here are the pics. You might notice the grass was a little thin. I made it into a flower bed because of low sun. Anyways in the second pic I tried to mark what was for sure a worm hole. This lawn had no fert, chems, or anything except the 1/4" compost topdressing a couple months before this. (It was under extreme drought stress when I topdressed)

sorry if this was a little off topic

JDUtah
01-27-2009, 11:07 PM
Duplicate post

treegal1
01-27-2009, 11:15 PM
OMG you hurt my little friends.:cry::cry::cry:

JDUtah
01-27-2009, 11:39 PM
OMG you hurt my little friends.:cry::cry::cry:

lol, I had nightmares that night. It was rough. :)

treegal1
01-27-2009, 11:49 PM
lol, I had nightmares that night. It was rough. :)
see now I am going to have nightmares!! except mine will also involve the removal of OM and top soil.......WWWWHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYY. does the term spray it and lay it mean anything??? really some GLY would have done less harm. and what for??? just to add some more dirt to a hole?? next time take my advice and just put some compost over that weak thin grass(not un healthy) and save the fuel for a ride to the ( insert vice here) and be happy.

or just lay some black plastic out....................yeah that takes some time...............

JDUtah
01-28-2009, 12:00 AM
Oh no worries Tree. The sod was used to install turf on another part of the property. As soon as that sod was moved 4-6" of local mulch was installed, bulbs and perennials planted a month later.

I would have just sprayed and mulched but wanted the grass for elsewhere. Too much work to remove turf unless you need it as sod. Not to mention the OM etc like you said.

treegal1
01-28-2009, 12:27 AM
sod = SOB. JD we staked 20 pallets of 500 sq ft in 3 hours in the coldest time of year here. I know how it is.

dang it Kiril sorry about the hijack..... more on thatch in the AM

bicmudpuppy
01-28-2009, 09:15 AM
one more thing!!! DE WILL NOT KILL RED WORMS!!!

I lace my bed with DE all the time to control other un wanteds, HAVE NOT KILLED ONE OF THE 7 MILLION RED WORMS YET!!!!!!

I didn't mean to imply that the DE would KILL the worms. When other golf course supers ask about "removing" worms (actually just the castings) from greens or other high maintenance short turf, I recommend either broadcasting DE or fine, quarried/angular sand. The worms, after a few days, find somewhere else (for me, hopefully not to far away) to be. On a golf green, this is a good thing x2. First, the worm casts everyone wants to complain about stop showing up in the short turf. Second, they don't go "far". This usually means they take up residence in the surrounding longer grass. This is normally an area that you fight to maintain because, due to the nature/design it is more slope and less irrigation. The worms help! :)

bicmudpuppy
01-28-2009, 09:22 AM
Guys, I'm new here to the organic forum. I'm not "new" to LS and I'm not new to much of the concept, but I haven't been "in the loop" for a while. (been playing stoopid ditch digger up until two years ago for the last 12 years) I hope that CT in the above post meat "compost tea" and if it did, can someone suggest ONLY a couple of old threads (it is winter,but I don't have time to READ everything here as quickly as I would like) about compost tea and how it would relate to my situation at the golf course with 65 Acres to "improve". I'm not going to justify that qualifier, it just would mean more reading. My ignorances at this point leaves me wondering how I get into the quantities needed to do me any good. If I don't "wake up" the people who sign off on budgets and checks, I am looking at a near zero budget beyond labor and fuel this season. I do have some "interesting" junk around, like two empty, not being used for anything poly spray tanks.

bicmudpuppy
01-28-2009, 09:32 AM
The Presidio Link was GREAT. I'm getting the idea. It looks like 1 "gallon" of compost "mix" was fermented in 10 gallons of water (5gallon in 50 and 10 gallons in 100). I have a "regular" who raises minature horses within 2 miles of the course. Guess who I can't wait to talk to about removing some of his "trash" :) During periods when we cannot mow often enough, we do sweep some clippings. The only clippings removed here are greens and we have been scattering them in the past. The sweepings (clippings from summer and leaves from fall) are in a compost pile. We try to burn much of the leaves because of the volume. I was considering changing this anyway. So, I have a source of manure, it might be "green" until I can get a pile aged, and I have "vegetative" compost of various ages. I also have two large poly tanks to brew in. What else do I need?

Kiril
01-28-2009, 09:32 AM
Are you looking for info on how to brew or build a brewer or both?

The two masters on this forum with respect to custom built brewers are Tim and TG.

How much you need will depend on what you are using it for.
Generally speaking, a little CT will go a long way.

Tim might want to chime in since I think he mentioned doing some tests (or planning on) with CT and fertigation? For you, this would really be the easiest way to apply for everything other than spot treatments that might need a heavier dose.

Kiril
01-28-2009, 09:39 AM
The Presidio Link was GREAT. I'm getting the idea. It looks like 1 "gallon" of compost "mix" was fermented in 10 gallons of water (5gallon in 50 and 10 gallons in 100). I have a "regular" who raises minature horses within 2 miles of the course. Guess who I can't wait to talk to about removing some of his "trash" :) During periods when we cannot mow often enough, we do sweep some clippings. The only clippings removed here are greens and we have been scattering them in the past. The sweepings (clippings from summer and leaves from fall) are in a compost pile. We try to burn much of the leaves because of the volume. I was considering changing this anyway. So, I have a source of manure, it might be "green" until I can get a pile aged, and I have "vegetative" compost of various ages. I also have two large poly tanks to brew in. What else do I need?

A source of air, DO meter, microscope, ingredients ... you probably have most everything else you would need. Microscope is used to verify your brew instead of sending it out for verification (expensive).

Those poly tanks may or may not be usable depending on what they were used for and how easy they are to clean.

Check out Tim's site. http://microbeorganics.com/

phasthound
01-28-2009, 10:34 AM
Guys, I'm new here to the organic forum. I'm not "new" to LS and I'm not new to much of the concept, but I haven't been "in the loop" for a while. (been playing stoopid ditch digger up until two years ago for the last 12 years) I hope that CT in the above post meat "compost tea" and if it did, can someone suggest ONLY a couple of old threads (it is winter,but I don't have time to READ everything here as quickly as I would like) about compost tea and how it would relate to my situation at the golf course with 65 Acres to "improve". I'm not going to justify that qualifier, it just would mean more reading. My ignorances at this point leaves me wondering how I get into the quantities needed to do me any good. If I don't "wake up" the people who sign off on budgets and checks, I am looking at a near zero budget beyond labor and fuel this season. I do have some "interesting" junk around, like two empty, not being used for anything poly spray tanks.

If you like, I can put you in contact with 2 Supers who have been using tea on their courses for close to a decade.

bicmudpuppy
01-28-2009, 11:40 AM
If you like, I can put you in contact with 2 Supers who have been using tea on their courses for close to a decade.

I NEVER turn down advice. Sometimes it is worth even less than you paid for it, at rarer times, it is the opposite ;) I can PM you my contact info, or they can search the National Site, I'm the only super in Aztec, NM !

bicmudpuppy
01-28-2009, 11:49 AM
A source of air, DO meter, microscope, ingredients ... you probably have most everything else you would need. Microscope is used to verify your brew instead of sending it out for verification (expensive).

Those poly tanks may or may not be usable depending on what they were used for and how easy they are to clean.

Check out Tim's site. http://microbeorganics.com/

DO is O2 content? Air I have. What magnification scope? Scopes are cheap in this era. I wish I had the one I had as a kid, but I'm sure it went out in a yard sale decades ago. Ingredients are the other thing I was looking for. Looking at the Presidio link, I saw vegetative compost, composted animal (horse)manure, and sugars, with suggestions of other add ins. What are the minimums would be the first question (and I'll follow the link), and then what are the benefits of the add ins? Presidio's application, extrapolated to mine (just greens), would mean applying 80-100gallons of tea per week, or possibly bi-weekly. I am NOT fighting any disease pressures with the possible exception of snow mold in a bad winter (looks like we are going to be good to go this year). I rolled the dice and did not apply the PCNB this year. There have been ZERO fungicide apps on property since my arrival the 3rd of July. We have spot sprayed less than 4 A for broadleaf weeds. Like I said before, I did spot treat about 4 A for white grubs.

What does HIGH Ph H20 do to the brewing process? Chlorine isn't a problem, but even if I aerate and allow the chlorine to naturally be removed from domestic water, I will have a PH in excess of 8. My irrigation water is closer to 8.5. On that note, will it do me any good to start a different thread on methods to ORGANICALLY reduce soil and irrigation water PH? Or organically friendly methods of accomplishing that. My lack of budget for fertilizer activity would all but disappear if I could drop soil and irrigation water Ph down to something that was close to 7 (6.5 is WAY to much to ask!)

Kiril
01-28-2009, 12:39 PM
DO is O2 content?

Yes ... dissolved oxygen

Air I have.

If it is compressed, you will need to do things a bit differently I believe. Tim, TG?

What magnification scope?

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=211424

If that is not enough, direct your questions to Tim, he is the resident microscope expert.

Ingredients are the other thing I was looking for. Looking at the Presidio link, I saw vegetative compost, composted animal (horse)manure, and sugars, with suggestions of other add ins. What are the minimums would be the first question (and I'll follow the link), and then what are the benefits of the add ins?

Tim or TG would be the best people to comment on this. You will need a soil test as well.

Presidio's application, extrapolated to mine (just greens), would mean applying 80-100gallons of tea per week, or possibly bi-weekly. I am NOT fighting any disease pressures with the possible exception of snow mold in a bad winter (looks like we are going to be good to go this year).

Personally, I am not in the "CT program" camp. I feel your OM additions will provide the most benefit with microbes in the long run. Use the CT to jump start the microbial process, to push your end goal to completion a little quicker, or to remediate any damage done with synthetics. This will be another good use of your microscope ... determining if and when a CT application is needed.

What does HIGH Ph H20 do to the brewing process? Chlorine isn't a problem, but even if I aerate and allow the chlorine to naturally be removed from domestic water, I will have a PH in excess of 8. My irrigation water is closer to 8.5.

That is about the same as what I have here. Probably wouldn't hurt to lower it to 6.5-7 for brewing. Once again, Tim is the best source of info with regard to this.

On that note, will it do me any good to start a different thread on methods to ORGANICALLY reduce soil and irrigation water PH?

Maintaining a constant level of SOC will be your best bet at buffering your pH without additional inputs, especially when dealing with sandy soils. Can't really say what the best approach will be until a soil report is pulled and on-site test is done. Raising your CEC will serve to buffer pH changes. TG works with sandy soils, so I am sure she will chime in with a biochar comment. :)

bicmudpuppy
01-28-2009, 03:42 PM
I've had soil tests done. I haven't done any for spring yet, and budget may not allow a lot of additional soil testing. Soil Ph is high. CEC's are not bad. OM content is good for this app. I'm not going to get to the 5% somebody mentioned, but we are well above 2%, even on greens. Salts are off the charts, both soil and water. Bicarbonates and sulfates. I will have to dig it out, but I have paste saturation tests results too. None of them are good. Dissolved solids/salts are the main problem. Add in a +.5" thatch layer and I am amazed we looked as good as we did, but we used 20-30% more water than I think we should have too. I spent a great deal of my time for the first 4 months I was here working with the computer irrigation program and identifying which heads were where. If I get time to get out of my shop and back here into the office more, I still plan to completely re-build the irrigation program, BUT I have to budget 8-10 long working days to do that.

I am told that I can get as much horse and possibly sheep manure as I want to incorporate into the leaves and grass that are composting on site in our "dump". Getting the manure "here" will remain to be seen.

treegal1
01-28-2009, 07:36 PM
push the K and OM is about the only thing to do, that and some bio char. the char is hard and does not hurt the play like OM.

then there is humic acid and vermiculite,,,, headed down that dark path now ......

treegal1
01-28-2009, 07:49 PM
doing a GC is tricky, the ruff is like a residential lawn that gets over cut so that's easy, just compost the stuff till its got the OM need.

fair ways are a little harder, as you need it to stand up to cart traffic and still play well, without blowing your water budget(CEC issues!!!)

then its the greens that's the issue almost always, no one wants to get away from that 2% organic matter sand and peat mix with the, ultra coarse grains. the answer there is to add your play ending OM to the under side of the soil strata that no one plays say 5 to 6 inches down under the top of the soil. then add some CEC changing stuff to help hold the water but not make it swampy, maybe some prills to keep it green and chelate the socks off it....

JDUtah
01-28-2009, 07:50 PM
I had a friend create an ionized water purifier. It used different charges to attract the different mineral salts out of the water. He almost had it installed in a municipal drinking water plant till the city found out he was going to sell the minerals... he was to greedy to give them percent profit.

Anyways he explained it like it was pretty easy to make, if you know how. Might be worth looking into. Soften your water while harvesting raw minerals to sell... maybe search the net?

bicmudpuppy
01-28-2009, 08:20 PM
then there is humic acid and vermiculite,,,, headed down that dark path now ......

Humic acid is already in the program and a favorite. Finding a new source is toward the top of my list this spring. The HyrdoMax and Essentials from Growth products both are high in Humic Acid, but my GM (that I think SO much of) has burned that bridge by not paying the invoices. Kind of hard to expect a sales guy to take care of you when he loses his commission because someone thought paying your bills wasn't as important as something else. I *think* I have an option on tap, but it isn't going to be as high a percentage as the Growth Products stuff.

Kiril
01-28-2009, 11:02 PM
If your salts are that high, I would temper your use of the manure (unless the EC is low), and try to get your compost more on the vegetative side. Use enough manure to meet your N budget, but certainly no more, and even that might be pushing it. Either way, you will want to do an EC test on your manure. I also assume you are meeting your leeching requirement? Beyond that, as TG mentioned, your best bet is raising the CEC any way possible in order to tie up some of those excess salts on complexes and in biomass.

With a combination of compost and CT, you might be able to dump the HS (humic substances) altogether since you will be creating them on site where they are needed. Once you stabilize your soil pH you can probably back off the CT. This should work on everything but the greens where you are still "forced" to keep your OM% low.

treegal1
01-28-2009, 11:13 PM
hey I figured out how to eliminate thatch,

KILL THE LAWN!!!!

Kiril
01-28-2009, 11:23 PM
hey I figured out how to eliminate thatch,

KILL THE LAWN!!!!

I already suggested that, and we got into a knock down drag out over it. :laugh:

treegal1
01-28-2009, 11:47 PM
:laugh::laugh::laugh: just pulling some chain:laugh::laugh::laugh:

then there would be golf on dirt now that's funny!!!:laugh::laugh:

bicmudpuppy
01-28-2009, 11:56 PM
Do you clowns understand that the term "sand greens" means just that........rolled sand and no turf. It is a whole 'nother nightmare all together. I'll figure out how to keep the turf alive. I saw a bunch of stuff about CT as a potential fungicide, what about the possibility of it reducing/combating LDS? I am still trying to get my head around any possible way to lower my soil PH when I am irrigating with water that averages about 8.5. I did mention this is the high desert and my ET is over 7"/month for most of June and all of July? The "monsoon" season starts in August. ET drops to just under 7" and we see an occasional .1" of rain with the odd 1-2" flood. Total rainfall is supposed to be about 12" including 2" of precip as snow. Instead of that 10" of seasonal rain, the historical records in my little part of the valley support a total annual of about 9" with 2" still being snow.

Kiril
01-29-2009, 12:25 AM
Do you clowns understand that the term "sand greens" means just that........rolled sand and no turf. It is a whole 'nother nightmare all together. I'll figure out how to keep the turf alive. I saw a bunch of stuff about CT as a potential fungicide, what about the possibility of it reducing/combating LDS?

You might want to back off the HS products in these areas and hit it hard with the CT. The microbes should help alleviate the contribution of humic acids to your LDS problem.

I am still trying to get my head around any possible way to lower my soil PH when I am irrigating with water that averages about 8.5.

To be honest, I don't see how changing the pH of your irrigation water is going to do much good. You still will have the salt load, so the net effect will probably be little or no change in soil pH. Raising soil ECEC is your best, long term solution IMHO. This will allow your soils to buffer the high pH of the irrigation water better. You still have the problem with climate though, which means you will probably still have a leaching requirement.

Kiril
01-29-2009, 12:53 AM
Found this on ATTRA. Good all around resource for sustainable turf management.

http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/PDF/turfcare.pdf

treegal1
01-29-2009, 08:32 AM
Is the LDS a result of a fungal issue or is it just due to the sand and its hydrophobic nature with the low CEC and high salt???

just my .02, fix the CEC and salt and most non fungal LDS will just go away.......

phasthound
01-29-2009, 08:48 AM
Humic acid is already in the program and a favorite. Finding a new source is toward the top of my list this spring. The HyrdoMax and Essentials from Growth products both are high in Humic Acid, but my GM (that I think SO much of) has burned that bridge by not paying the invoices. Kind of hard to expect a sales guy to take care of you when he loses his commission because someone thought paying your bills wasn't as important as something else. I *think* I have an option on tap, but it isn't going to be as high a percentage as the Growth Products stuff.

Oh, then I take back what I said about being a supplier of humate products. :nono::)

bicmudpuppy
01-29-2009, 09:09 AM
Oh, then I take back what I said about being a supplier of humate products. :nono::)

Barry, PLEASE don't go THERE*trucewhiteflag*

As soon as I can "fix" the damage, I'm going to have to start establishing new relationships. It boggles my mind that the only way they will work is making sure that things are pd in advance or COD, but those extra charges and the inability to dicker are where I'm going to have to be. I by-passed the GM, straight to the ownership and got a Helena account opened for some things (that is where my Milorganite came from). If he so much as misses ONE minimum payment on that account, you guys can quit sending me agronomic advice and take up a collection for my legal defense fund. I want to find a good source of organic wetting agents. I have always been a big kelp/sea weed fan. Off topic here, but I am interested to find out more about your organic pre-emergent. If I can slip a pre-emergent in while selling an N app, I have won another battle.

Kiril
01-29-2009, 01:34 PM
Bic, do you have more info on your soil and irrigation water? Specifically measurements with regard to salts for both?

bicmudpuppy
01-29-2009, 01:57 PM
Bic, do you have more info on your soil and irrigation water? Specifically measurements with regard to salts for both?

I will dig those out of the file and post the reports later. Still dealing with some AM stuff along with working my shop work.

bicmudpuppy
01-29-2009, 10:35 PM
Sorry, I owe TG a better description of the poly tanks I have, and I didn't have any time in the office to dig out the soil and water tests. I will get it posted sometime this weekend. It won't mean anything to you guys here in the Organic forum, but Kiril will know what I'm talking about. Dana just called and is in Durango. I'm going to blow off tomorrow morning and help/watch them launch a balloon. AND I get to meet a long time LS bud!

treegal1
01-29-2009, 10:49 PM
don't worry, its all good.

by the way I was kidding about the sand greens, oiled sand is something else to play on... you want me to rake what to play on???:dizzy:

Kiril
01-29-2009, 11:02 PM
Sorry, I owe TG a better description of the poly tanks I have, and I didn't have any time in the office to dig out the soil and water tests. I will get it posted sometime this weekend.

No problem. I was considering what you said about carbonates in your irrigation water, so I might recant what I said earlier about injecting acid into your irrigation water. Can't really make a determination one way or the other until I can see some numbers.

bicmudpuppy
01-30-2009, 01:39 AM
The beauty of web mail. I have one of the sets of lab tests that were run. I cropped them to remove the heading information. Paste Saturation, basic soil test, and water sample in that order (I hope). This run of soil samples came back a little lower on the PH. PH was just 7.6 The previous water test (about three weeks prior) came back at 8.5 and 8.4 PH (the higher number came out of the "running" ditch with the lower number coming from the irrigation pond. This sample was taken from the pump station, and we hadn't run the pumps recently.

treegal1
01-30-2009, 09:21 AM
thats.... oh, I..........

treegal1
01-30-2009, 09:38 AM
my first thought is to add acid(not sustainable and costly!!!!

then the coffee hit my blood stream and my brain turned on.LOLOL

so the best plan I have is to change the water in the pond, naturally and sustainably. so let me speculate some, standard CG pond with no weeds and plants around???

no aeration???

fairly clean bottom with a large turn over in water( pump out)

what to do, you ask?? I am no expert but it sounds like you need to aerate the water(add CO2 from the air)

then add some water plants and some shore plants to add OM to the water. while this will rob some of the carbolics from the water at times it will add tannins and other plant based acids and help to buffer the water to a natural ph. that will lessen the bicarbonates and stabilize the Ca MG from the bi carbs...

I may be way off as this is not my finest area of expertise but it has worked here for a few different places that I have seen it used.......

DUSTYCEDAR
01-30-2009, 09:47 AM
HOW BIG IS THE POND?
how deep?
is it in full sun (i know da)

Kiril
01-30-2009, 10:53 AM
First quick look .... your water is acceptable (SAR & RSC indicate action is not required).
I'll crunch some numbers this weekend when I get a chance.

How about the soil report for comparison?

bicmudpuppy
01-30-2009, 04:07 PM
Pond is aprox. 3/4 A surface and is supposed to be 10A' of storage. Typical peak draw is 3 A' e/o day with a 1 A' draw on the between or "light" day. I want to start this spring at about 1/2 A' on light days with a heavy draw every fourth day of 2 A'. Then, as the season warms up, increase the heavy draw to every third day. Hold that for as long as absolutely possible before going to e/o day.

I will try to find the other soil and water reports.

bicmudpuppy
01-30-2009, 04:24 PM
The "other" soil tests are from greens. Totally different animal. I'm not sure what happened to the other fairway test. (I know, I know) PH does drop down to 7.2 on some greens, but is as high as 7.8 CEC runs from 7.5 to 8.6
K - 128/161ppm
P - 81/92ppm
Mg - 107/142ppm
Ca - 1041/1336ppm
Na - 42/52ppm
NO3 - 1ppm
S - 5/7ppm
OM% - 1.3/2.4
Soluble Salts .3 and .4 mmhos/cm

Water analysis
running ditch Irrigation Pond
Na-1.2 meq/L 1.2
Ca-3.5 3.2
Mg-1.0 1.0
CO3 - <1 <1
HCO3 - 4.6 .6
Cl-.6 <.01
P<.01 <.01
K - 4 4
NO3 - <.01 <.01
SO4 - 104 98
B-.11 .08
Total Dissolved - 326 326

Kiril
01-31-2009, 12:46 AM
You wouldn't happen to have a soil test of an area that is not managed would you?
Can I also assume with the exception of the greens, you soils are indigenous?

bicmudpuppy
01-31-2009, 12:58 AM
I have a soil test for the some of the sand taken from the arroyo wash that makes up 75% of the course. As to being truly "native" soil, I wouldn't know how to quantify that. The course was built in '49? I think, as a 9 hole facility. It was sold and renovated to become the current 18 hole layout in '99. When the remodeled, my understanding was they attempted to save and re-use top soil, but failed miserably (never heard that one before, right?). They also attempted to use some of the silt dredgings from the pond. I can "see" where some of this did and did not happen. Typical post construction site. I have drainage problems that have never been addressed. I have soil diversity from not getting a good mix and from the cut and fill with the dozer. If I could find a good way to bring that irrigation water down to a point that it would begin to acidify the soil, I wouldn't need to fertilize. Maybe for a long time.

Kiril
01-31-2009, 01:11 AM
Reason why I was curious is to have some kind of baseline to compare your current soil reports, in order to make some kind of determination of where the salts are coming from in your soil (eg. contributions from ferts, pesticides, parent material, etc...).

Given your water report, I would not consider it a significant source of salts, nor does it necessarily raise any serious red flags. What (if any) water management decisions you make should be dirt cheap ... especially given the volume of water you are moving.

Also, I noticed the soil report does not list a CEC, or any physical properties for that matter.
I can calculate a rough CECe from what is provided however a lab measurement would be preferred.
BTW, what lab are you using ... I like the report format.

Have you calculated your leaching requirement yet?

Kiril
01-31-2009, 09:41 AM
Yes .... No?

bicmudpuppy
01-31-2009, 09:40 PM
Yes .... No?

um..............Yes,.............and NO LOL

That picture is pre-1998. I've found it on a few occasions. I find it VERY interesting, because it shows the course in the OLD layout. Prior to them dozing and re-building. FWIW, the pond is the same.

I will pull a current (less than 2 years old) google earth and try to post it.

Kiril
01-31-2009, 09:52 PM
Doesn't matter the age, the indigenous soils are still the same.

Here is your report. Can you list the predominant soil types since the course is now larger.

http://websoilsurvey.sc.egov.usda.gov/wssproduct/exfracjhv32ft1554zaryb55/DL_00000/Soil_Report.pdf

bicmudpuppy
01-31-2009, 11:52 PM
Doesn't matter the age, the indigenous soils are still the same.

Here is your report. Can you list the predominant soil types since the course is now larger.

http://websoilsurvey.sc.egov.usda.gov/wssproduct/exfracjhv32ft1554zaryb55/DL_00000/Soil_Report.pdf

The course is not "larger". The new layout sits on the old layout. Same 85 Acres. Just more of it turf. The fruitland areas classified as FU and FS make up the majority of the course, with the river wash RA making up the rest.

Smallaxe
02-01-2009, 07:12 PM
Talk about going off course with a thread!!! I thought that 8 pages of thatch discussion was too good to be true. :)

I was hoping for more discussion on watering practices in conjunction with seasonal timings of apps of compost, molasses, and/or CT - adjusted for soil types.

treegal1
02-01-2009, 07:30 PM
our one track minds are derailed:laugh::laugh:

Kiril
02-01-2009, 09:30 PM
Talk about going off course with a thread!!! I thought that 8 pages of thatch discussion was too good to be true. :)

I was hoping for more discussion on watering practices in conjunction with seasonal timings of apps of compost, molasses, and/or CT - adjusted for soil types.

It still is on topic more or less. One of the problems Bic has is thatch ... which is related in part to how the soils are managed.

treegal1
02-01-2009, 09:53 PM
and the over watering and how its timed.... in an over managed area like a GC its all linked together. surface drying and microbe populating combined with resource management. you have to have it all together to work out...

bicmudpuppy
02-01-2009, 11:28 PM
The goal is not to dominate the thread, but healthy turf and thatch control go hand in hand. I very much want to pursue an organic approach. Different than an LCO, but similar, I still have to "sell" a program. I think that is easier in that the sell is to those who have already made a commitment to trust the turf manager (me).

I am looking at PH and salts and, even though the water doesn't look "that bad", it is a contributing factor. I feel the PH is compounding the problem. That soil report Kiril linked to looks reasonable. Next Monkey wrench, and I hope everyone is in a nice calm mood. Construction '00...................

Financial "issues" (I'm not sure I understand it all, but some of it was personal interaction between parties involved) caused a change in the construction. The original contractor "left" and the investors "took over". One of them was a civil engineer (feel it coming yet). He built the base like they were going to build high rises on the site. Base was compacted to +90
% before putting the topsoil back. The VERY high sand content means we didn't get the compaction that would have occured in clay, but it is still an issue. Low areas that should drain do NOT drain. Salts build up because the water must percolate through a compacted layer. This is going to relate to many commercial and residential sites. I will get a chance to pursue having some animal manure hauled in to enhance my refuse pile and begin some quality composting. Mixing that compost with sand from the river wash (plans are in place that I may get a deck screener to clean the sand). If that happens, then screening the compost and mixing it into the sand to topdress should be very easy. I will get the two old poly spray tanks moved down to the shop to investigate their condition to explore making CT. Then, we can see where we can go next.

Kiril
02-01-2009, 11:50 PM
I haven't had a chance to sit down and take a look at the data yet, but I still feel raising your SOC is going to be your best approach. I try to take a hard look at the data this week.

bicmudpuppy
02-03-2009, 12:46 AM
Back to CT, TG asked me what I had to brew in. Here are the two poly tanks. One is marked 110 gallons, and the other is 225. The 110 gallon might have been used for herbicides in the distant past. Cleaning it out doesn't scare me. I am pretty sure a good rinse or two and risking one or two failed brews will neutralize anything that might be residual.

treegal1
02-03-2009, 07:31 AM
:laugh:thanks BC,:laugh::laugh:that made my day, its funny but I have been working on a round horizontal brewer already:laugh::laugh: yep those may work just fine.:waving:

treegal1
02-03-2009, 08:42 AM
ok so I have been looking at the one on the rust metal stand its 110 gallons, that looks like the one, the legs on the other have me worried, I will get you something soon

bicmudpuppy
02-03-2009, 09:09 AM
I sent you a PM back. I have to admit that I am on my own with this project. My "boss" told me he thought the whole idea was bad when I asked him to make some contacts about bringing in some animal compost or manure. Anything "new" that will be attributed to me is a bad idea. I've done enough "new" things, just in managing the water and doing the leg work for best price/impact for the dollars spent that I've already made the mistake of making those that have gone before look less than professional. Some people make it to easy, but the GM is taking it personal. He also told me they want to start "backing up" my computer for me on a regular interval. I am afraid he wants access to my e-mail, etc. This is going to affect my ability to use the internet from my office. I don't have enough modern computer skills to be comfortable protecting some of the personal information that can end up on that machine.

bicmudpuppy
02-04-2009, 05:42 PM
I think I have a brewer :) I need to get a better blower, but to prove it would work, this seemed fine. Last pic is with the blower running!!

phasthound
02-04-2009, 06:29 PM
I think I have a brewer :) I need to get a better blower, but to prove it would work, this seemed fine. Last pic is with the blower running!!


You'll love cleaning that tank, not! :nono:
But keep trying. :)

treegal1
02-04-2009, 06:54 PM
You'll love cleaning that tank, not! :nono:
But keep trying. :)get some oxy clean and a refrigerator coil cleaning brush and party on. the legs are what worries me. let him play some for now, show off his bubbles and use that 15 amp power hog. when he gets every ones interest up then he can really get to work.

miles ahead of JD's first one..................

hey mr GC get the back flow on that tank for the fill device,JKJ

bicmudpuppy
02-04-2009, 11:34 PM
get some oxy clean and a refrigerator coil cleaning brush and party on. the legs are what worries me. let him play some for now, show off his bubbles and use that 15 amp power hog. when he gets every ones interest up then he can really get to work.

miles ahead of JD's first one..................

hey mr GC get the back flow on that tank for the fill device,JKJ

That garden hose is connected to an approved AVB :) It is even higher than the tank. Connected inside because.........Baby its COLD out there.......well, at night anyway.

treegal1
02-04-2009, 11:38 PM
you the man, hey do the weather for 34956, we are losing our azz as we speak, all the queens horses and all the kings men, and all the tea in china wont save my azz now. crop loss here we come!!!!!

treegal1
02-04-2009, 11:44 PM
so do you like what you saw yet?? did the GM have your head examined or per around the corner???? more holes in the pipe yet???? look at Ebay yet? are you ready for some worm casts???JK on the last one.....

bicmudpuppy
02-04-2009, 11:50 PM
you the man, hey do the weather for 34956, we are losing our azz as we speak, all the queens horses and all the kings men, and all the tea in china wont save my azz now. crop loss here we come!!!!!

I'm waiting for thaw and your watching tender buds go bye bye :(

As to the functionality of that tank.........for the price, I can't go wrong (already paid for). As to cleaning it, I have a diesel fired steam power washer. 3.0gpm @ 1800psi and 240degrees get it clean enough for you to start over? Worst case, it doesn't look pretty, but it will be sterile if I need it to be. Then we start over. Going to look at blowers tonight or tomorrow. I can take the spray bar out and put more holes in it, but to the untrained eye, it looked to be doing a real good job. What happens if I soft foam sleeve the spray bar? Do I create enough back pressure and restriction to be counter productive. This tank has a very small lid. The air blowing out the lid was impressive. Not a hard force, but decent flow. If I make this work, the "right" place to put the tank is down by the pump house. I have a buried concrete pad (they let the mud and crap cover it and lose it) down there. It would be right next to the pump house for water source AND electric. I'm wondering what I might find for blowers in 230 or 460 three phase :) Sometimes those things end up VERY cheap because of the limited applications.

treegal1
02-04-2009, 11:55 PM
yes that very true about the power. clean is clean!!!

now for the bar/diffuser. more small holes and, maybe some other innovations

JDUtah
02-05-2009, 01:04 AM
miles ahead of JD's first one.................

They say you learn most from your failures... :laugh:

phasthound
02-05-2009, 09:48 AM
get some oxy clean and a refrigerator coil cleaning brush and party on. the legs are what worries me. let him play some for now, show off his bubbles and use that 15 amp power hog. when he gets every ones interest up then he can really get to work.

miles ahead of JD's first one..................

hey mr GC get the back flow on that tank for the fill device,JKJ

I didn't mean to be discouraging. It's a good start.

treegal1
02-05-2009, 09:58 AM
yeah he is on the path, got me thinking about a small round brewer for say 100 gallons, but how do you get the sediment out after brewing?? a shop vac.:laugh:

Kiril
02-05-2009, 10:16 AM
yeah he is on the path, got me thinking about a small round brewer for say 100 gallons, but how do you get the sediment out after brewing?? a shop vac.:laugh:

Girl, he's an irrigator ... there are ways. ;)

Personally with that setup I would build a rack so the unit could be cleaned/drained either through the drain port or the top.

bicmudpuppy
02-05-2009, 05:51 PM
Girl, he's an irrigator ... there are ways. ;)

Personally with that setup I would build a rack so the unit could be cleaned/drained either through the drain port or the top.

Actually, I was thinking that from a practical point, a 4" bulkhead fitting either on the other side or in the bottom. I *think* I could get a 3" bulkhead in one of those legs TG likes so much. Or, put a 2" bulkhead in the side of each leg down the road. I could elboe up from one or two of them so that I was decanting from above anything that would settle. 'Puter has been on the fritz all day. Something that updated didn't like the architecture of this irrigation computer. I'm going to do some fan research later. I was seriously considering buying that cheap fan TG. Just to see how it would work. I know I would have had to put an enclosure around it for the weather, but for $50 including shipping, I can't see how I would have gone wrong. I could always have moved it to act as an exhaust fan in the shop LOL
350cfm + at less than 2amps on 230v 3Ph power.

Mr. Nice
02-05-2009, 06:06 PM
Bic,

I must not be understanding what your saying in your post?

What kind of air pump are you talking about for 50$? are you saying it has 350 CFM and 3 hp? for 50 BUCKS??????

treegal1
02-05-2009, 06:08 PM
its not the cfm that has me worried its the pressure I don't know if there will be the amount that will blow into the water= water column

treegal1
02-05-2009, 06:09 PM
Bic,

I must not be understanding what your saying in your post?

What kind of air pump are you talking about for 50$? are you saying it has 350 CFM and 3 hp? for 50 BUCKS??????

its a fan blower...........

treegal1
02-05-2009, 06:15 PM
BC i would just put the air into one end and take the liquid out the other. if the pipe you used to make the diffuser is 11/2 pvc then go with the 11/2 bungs. at the water end take a tee and face it down, plug the end of the diff. to fit inside the T and then use ball valve to dispense the tea out of your end fitting( theT) let those legs alone for now!!!!

bicmudpuppy
02-05-2009, 06:32 PM
Bic,

I must not be understanding what your saying in your post?

What kind of air pump are you talking about for 50$? are you saying it has 350 CFM and 3 hp? for 50 BUCKS??????

NOT 3HP, 3PH. It was a squirrel cage fan like they use to inflate double poly green houses or as exhaust fans in duct work, etc. I sent the ebay seller a message. It went with no bids. 15 bucks for the fan, but he wanted almost 25 to ship it. I have 3phase power where I would put this brewer. The reason the fan didn't get any bids (just my opinion) is because it is using commercial power. I do have 3 phase here in the shop, but I know many that do not. The motor plate says 1 amp at 220V. That would be 1amp per leg, but still a good 12/3 in conduit would run the thing very nicely. Might be able to do it with 14/3, but if I'm going to run 220V three phase, its going be 12gauge wire.

bicmudpuppy
02-05-2009, 06:39 PM
BC i would just put the air into one end and take the liquid out the other. if the pipe you used to make the diffuser is 11/2 pvc then go with the 11/2 bungs. at the water end take a tee and face it down, plug the end of the diff. to fit inside the T and then use ball valve to dispense the tea out of your end fitting( theT) let those legs alone for now!!!!

Diffuser is 2" pvc. I need another outlet to drain/remove the tea with anyway. A pair of bulkhead fittings in the square side of the leg would be the easiest for a lot of reasons. The tank construction would not be impaired by a good bulkhead fitting on each side. Pro's and con's to putting them on the same leg vs putting them across from each other.

Time for a question. Just to get a "feel" for how this will work, if I can buy (shudder) compost, say a drop bag full, how do I verify it's suitability for tea? Also, what would be the negative to setting up the brewer to use harvested aerification plugs? and again, what is the best way to verify the source for the tea? If I get a good "brew", and only decant half of the brew for an application, is the remaining brew self sustaining if I feed it?

What do I want for a micro-scope. This will be a personal expense, so be gentle. To make this question off the wall too, has anyone used those scopes they were selling a few years ago with the USB connection to see what you were looking at on the computer monitor? They were in the 100 buck range.

Mr. Nice
02-05-2009, 06:59 PM
I see.....Im not sure thats the kind of air supply you are looking for? might need some more pressure behind it.?

Tim W might be able to help you find a scope? or maybe ebay?

Mr. Nice
02-05-2009, 07:05 PM
Bic,

If the fresh plugs don't contain tons of chems and such and are full of microbial live??? It would help your cause one would think?

treegal1
02-05-2009, 07:13 PM
ok the scope, here phill has one just like this from edmunds..... he paid 132$ a little while ago.... Tim is going to have a feild day with me for this.........

http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp?pn=3085122&cm_mmc=Mercent-_-Google-_-421190-_-3085122&mr:trackingCode=F08350F3-15F2-DD11-80A9-000423C27502&mr:referralID=NA&bhcd2=1233874949

bc hold that thought and i will send you a drawing of something I am working on, pm me an email.......

also, any diversity is grand!!! find that place in nature that has the king of plants/grass and bring some home to the brew

bicmudpuppy
02-05-2009, 07:28 PM
Bic,

If the fresh plugs don't contain tons of chems and such and are full of microbial live??? It would help your cause one would think?

In order to prevent the B**** that occurs when aerifying, we used the core harvester to pickup all the plugs from the fairways last fall. My plan was and still is to use these to fill in low spots, holes, etc. Good soil to "fix" spots with. The grass from the plugs on some of the piles we made are actually growing. The unit used to take the plugs rarely got more than 2" deep. The piled cores are some green shoots, lots of thatch, and roots. The few areas I have that had decent "soil" vs sand, I am thinking might have some very nice organic activity going on. Granted it is slow now, but today was almost 60 and the weather will be up an down until spring really gets here, but this is a personal project. I'm using leftovers and scraps. I may buy that blower, just to see if it will work. Spending a few bucks to put an extra bulkhead fitting or two in the tank to make it more functional is ok. I have some salvageable scrap around I can convert to cash instead of spending "their" money to cover a few costs as well. I get the brewer functional, I imagine I can "play" with seeing what I can produce in the way of CT. If I can get a good aerobic bacterial mix going, I don't see why it wouldn't almost be self sustaining if I feed it. I have the other 100 gallon tank available (needs cleaned, but I have steam assisted pressure washer). I could decant 100 gallons. Clean the 200 gallon tank. Put the 100 gallons back, dilute, and feed all over again. 80 gallons of CT will make an application in my sprayer. I can change nozzles and do the entire 150 gallons in finished tea, but the rate would be a little low. (high volume nozzles, spray rig does 2 acres. Next size smaller I can do 4, and I have a 10Acre nozzle set) The 2 acre application works. I wonder what the recovery time will be at an approximate dilution of 50%. Local feed store can get me molasses using my 30gallon drum. He didn't have a current market price, but it won't be expensive. Lots of guys are using molasses on golf turf for obvious reasons. It isn't an organic effort, it is a healthy soil effort (If you spray and pray every day, you have to get back to some basics eventually).

Mr. Nice
02-05-2009, 07:41 PM
bic,

If tree says that scope she posted works good enough? get it..

Once you have it you will be able to soil sample and see whats what?

I know what your talking about as far as the plugs, I used to cut many a house next to gulf courses, I used to dump clipping out of a walker mower next to those type of pile's they put on the out skirts of a course. I would watch them regrow all the time as weeks went on.

All you have to do like tree said is find a spot thats healthy and start digging for GOLD.

bicmudpuppy
02-05-2009, 07:56 PM
ok the scope, here phill has one just like this from edmunds..... he paid 132$ a little while ago.... Tim is going to have a feild day with me for this.........

http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp?pn=3085122&cm_mmc=Mercent-_-Google-_-421190-_-3085122&mr:trackingCode=F08350F3-15F2-DD11-80A9-000423C27502&mr:referralID=NA&bhcd2=1233874949

bc hold that thought and i will send you a drawing of something I am working on, pm me an email.......

also, any diversity is grand!!! find that place in nature that has the king of plants/grass and bring some home to the brew

TG, a separate search shows that scope (10x,40x,150x) and a VERY similar one that is 10x-400x. How much magnification does one really need to see what we want to see. I haven't been in a lab in 20 years and I haven't run a microscope in longer than that.

treegal1
02-05-2009, 08:07 PM
250 X is about all you need, maybe 400 on a bad/good day......

Mr. Nice
02-05-2009, 10:07 PM
It's nice to have many different objective mag's like 4X 10X 20X 40X 50X? 100X?

10X=100xmag and the most important one is a 20X =200x magnification is all you really need.

If I had only one objective to use it would be 20X.

Look for a scope that has 10X 20X and a 40X. if it comes with a 4X and 100X even better. The 100X you will rarely use but it's good to have none the less?

Kiril
02-05-2009, 10:29 PM
I was thinking the bulkhead idea as well, and I think you can get away with it on opposing legs without compromising the integrity of the tank to badly.

I would stay away from the soil cores for brewing tea. Mix them up with some compost and reapply as you had planned.

Kiril
02-16-2009, 10:26 AM
OK, so I took a little closer look at your reports Bic and I might suggest the following.

1) Amend your compost with elemental sulfur and gypsum.
2) Determine your leaching requirement and add to your schedule if you haven't already done it.

DUSTYCEDAR
02-16-2009, 05:55 PM
i know a little goes a long way with sulfur but how much is to much?