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LushGreenLawn
01-27-2009, 05:41 PM
Hey Bill,

Where can we get more information about your Gluten-8 product?

phasthound
01-28-2009, 10:21 AM
Hey Bill,

Where can we get more information about your Gluten-8 product?

Here is some info.

bicmudpuppy
01-28-2009, 12:12 PM
Crabgrass control is probably the first thing anyone looks for in pre-emergent control, what about control of other grassy weeds like Poa annua or trivialis? Has it been tested on bentgrass? I will read Christian's report, I skimmed it already. What is the N content of the liquid product? or more importantly, at 32oz/m sq', what is the nitrogen rate? Next, what is the best way to get a price list on some of the products from your web site? Thanks

wallzwallz
01-28-2009, 12:37 PM
Is there a misprint in the application notes 1 quart, 16 oz? I would like to try this product. Because of cost I would like to just spray known problem areas, driveway and walkway edges, more compacted areas etc.. I thought Bill had said it has most of the Nitrogen removed. I just wonder if there will be a noticeable difference in color only spraying certain areas?

bicmudpuppy
01-28-2009, 12:42 PM
Wow, I didn't even read the 16oz :) it said 1:3 ratio and 1 quart to 3 quarts and that all matched. So, 32oz/m sq'. I read it to say reduced N. The granular product is 9%N and Christian's papers say that similar products work out to 2#N/m. My guess would be that at that rate, we are still going to be in a 1#/m application on N and that means to me that spot spraying is going to be very noticeable.

DUSTYCEDAR
01-30-2009, 09:49 AM
that could be true

NattyLawn
01-30-2009, 10:02 AM
Wow, I didn't even read the 16oz :) it said 1:3 ratio and 1 quart to 3 quarts and that all matched. So, 32oz/m sq'. I read it to say reduced N. The granular product is 9%N and Christian's papers say that similar products work out to 2#N/m. My guess would be that at that rate, we are still going to be in a 1#/m application on N and that means to me that spot spraying is going to be very noticeable.

With granular CGM, it's a slow and metered process to break the N down so I wouldn't worry about spot treating along edges, etc. Now, I think the CGH makes the N more plant available or water soluble, meaning it could "green up" faster. The N content is at what, 2-4% N? I wouldn't worry about it being noticable, but that might depend on how you apply. Are you going to put down a fert and then apply the CGH to heavy crab pressure areas?

Mr. Nice
01-30-2009, 10:42 AM
Corn gluten hydrolysate is a water-soluble product derived from corn gluten meal through enzyme hydrolysis. The CGH is herbicidally active and contains 10 to 14% N by weight (Christians et al., 1994).

What I'm trying to figure out is how do you take out the N from a amino/peptide compound?

Does anybody know how one would do this and not effect herbicidal qualities of the CGH?

NattyLawn
01-30-2009, 11:04 AM
Corn gluten hydrolysate is a water-soluble product derived from corn gluten meal through enzyme hydrolysis. The CGH is herbicidally active and contains 10 to 14% N by weight (Christians et al., 1994).

What I'm trying to figure out is how do you take out the N from a amino/peptide compound?

Does anybody know how one would do this and not effect herbicidal qualities of the CGH?

That was one of your questions all along. It might be proprietary, but Bill hasn't posted here in awhile anyway.

GaGolfSup
01-30-2009, 11:20 AM
Just a guess, but Straight Corn Gluten Meal probably contains a lot of different proteins. They probably isolate the ones that are herbicidally active and remove those that are not, thus effectively reducing N content...Then it is all mixed with water also reducing N concentration...Bill?

Mr. Nice
01-30-2009, 11:30 AM
I wonder if it's cause of product dilution rate per thou to give you your 2%?N rate?

like going light with 46-0-0.

Have you read the test studies all from Iowa? Have you figured out how many grams/lbs they really used to produce more then 50% herbicidal affect and up per sq meter? per thou?

my estimate says a lot of product is really needed?

Mr. Nice
01-30-2009, 11:45 AM
gagolf,

Isolating one or many amino/peptides/proteins will only make your N content higher.

Again how do you remove the N and not effect the peptides responsible for the herbicidal qualities?

Low app rate and dilution is the only way I can think of now to lower N rate per... anybody else have any idea's?

wallzwallz
01-30-2009, 01:03 PM
Nattylawns, yes I plan on doing the entire lawn w/ organic fert and compost tea. The problem areas of crabgrass are the weakest areas of grass so a little extra N won't hurt and if applied in april, any noticeable difference should be gone by Memorial day? That's the unofficial start of Summer on Cape Cod.

JDUtah
01-30-2009, 01:48 PM
I wonder if it's cause of product dilution rate per thou to give you your 2%?N rate?

I would agree with gagolf. Increase the % ai (the herbicidaly active proteins) and you have to apply less product. Less product = less N per K.

Maybe they have a lot of waste during manufacturing, maybe that waste goes into the 123?

Bill?

Mr. Nice
01-31-2009, 08:54 AM
Is this product using isolated AI proteins only?

Mr. Nice
01-31-2009, 11:46 AM
If you could isolate the bio active proteins only you would indeed be applying less over all N to the area.

Is that the case here?

ICT Bill
02-02-2009, 12:59 AM
Apologies for being absent, this is show season, meet me on the show floor

Indeed Gluten-8 is 1.5% nitrogen instead of the granular which is 10%. applied this works out to 1/3 of a pound of nitrogen per 1000 sq ft

The mix rate is 1 quart (32 OUNCES) Gluten-8 to 3 quarts water, the mix treats 1000 square feet

signed, exhausted

Mr. Nice
02-02-2009, 07:22 AM
To better serve the buying public could you please explain if your product
uses only CGMH made from biological enzymes? or is you product made with the isolated
bio active proteins only......... or is it made with both?

roccon31
02-02-2009, 07:09 PM
ok so for 10M you need 2.5 gals of product. how much is this stuff? what does it come in? gallons/quart/5gallon????

ICT Bill
02-02-2009, 10:01 PM
ok so for 10M you need 2.5 gals of product. how much is this stuff? what does it come in? gallons/quart/5gallon????

For 10M you need 10 quarts or 2 1/2 gallons to treat at the recommended rate of 20 pounds per 1000 if it was granular. $99.875 to treat 10M

1 quart of Gluten-8 is equal to 20 pounds of granular CGM. 1 gallon of Gluten-8 (9 pounds) treats 4000 sq ft, equal to 80 pounds of CGM.

The mix rate is 3 to 1, 3 quarts water to 1 quart Gluten-8 which treats 1000 sq ft
It comes in gallon containers which treat 4000 sq ft. One pallet (192 gallons) will treat 17.6 acres. We also have (limited quantities) 275 gallon IBC's available that treat 25.252 acres

1 gallon is $39.95 or roughly $10 per 1000, there are discounts on pallets and 275 gallon IBC's

ICT Bill
02-02-2009, 10:10 PM
To better serve the buying public could you please explain if your product
uses only CGMH made from biological enzymes? or is you product made with the isolated
bio active proteins only......... or is it made with both?

an enzymatic process is used to hydrolyze the CGM.

treegal1
02-02-2009, 10:33 PM
Bill that's MR nice, doctor that's Bill, he is the resident "product guy", don't worry he's ok.

I was going to jump in here but I did not know what you told me was out or not. hope you got a tan.....

ICT Bill
02-03-2009, 10:27 AM
Tan?? yeah right, white as a ghost from being holed up in hotel rooms, small airline seats, taxi's, meeting rooms, offices and public restrooms (tap, tap):laugh:

DUSTYCEDAR
02-03-2009, 11:13 AM
Oh no bill has a wide stance

NattyLawn
02-03-2009, 01:30 PM
So the mix rate is 3 to 1 and you spray at 1 gallon per thousand?

DUSTYCEDAR
02-03-2009, 02:30 PM
looks like it

ICT Bill
02-04-2009, 12:34 AM
So the mix rate is 3 to 1 and you spray at 1 gallon per thousand?

Yes that is correct, I am told that it can be applied at 1 quart per 2 gallons if your rig is set up that way already. We do not have the data on that though, completely anecdotal

Kiril
02-04-2009, 12:54 AM
Send me a trial gallon so I can try it out. ;)

bicmudpuppy
02-04-2009, 01:14 AM
Send me a trial gallon so I can try it out. ;)

Piker, I was going to offer a large scale trial with pictures and data collection. One IBC should get it done ;)

See if we can get poa control on bent at 2qts AI/Acre?

Kiril
02-04-2009, 01:30 AM
Hey, I was first. I will setup a field trial as well, just not as large scale. ;)

bicmudpuppy
02-04-2009, 01:55 AM
Wow, that should be 2qts AI/m or 20gallons AI/Acre and I've got a LOT more room and diversity to test than you do :) Not to mention a much more controlled large scale setting LOL

treegal1
02-04-2009, 02:17 AM
go ahead, i did the Guinea pig thing already.........

Kiril
02-04-2009, 02:32 AM
Not to mention a much more controlled large scale setting LOL

Sadly, this is true ... but I have some orchards and vineyards I can test on, perhaps even an arboretum as well. :)

bicmudpuppy
02-04-2009, 09:02 AM
As I see it, the limiting factor here is cost. Christian's research suggests they went near double label to get what I would consider to be "good" control. At 10 gallons per acre(label), your cost before bulk discounts is $400 per acre. Double that and get $800 per acre and I think heavy fert and over seeding would give you a better overall control. We are only talking annual weed control from what I have read so far. I know, I'm a kill joy, but this is the point where I have to weigh the organic vs synthetic overall "cost". Not just dollars, but impacted dollars as well. Supplement to make up for any damage from a synthetic and go on. I find it heartening that these products are becoming more available and will become more cost efficient down the road.

Kiril
02-04-2009, 10:07 AM
As I see it, the limiting factor here is cost. Christian's research suggests they went near double label to get what I would consider to be "good" control. At 10 gallons per acre(label), your cost before bulk discounts is $400 per acre. Double that and get $800 per acre and I think heavy fert and over seeding would give you a better overall control. We are only talking annual weed control from what I have read so far. I know, I'm a kill joy, but this is the point where I have to weigh the organic vs synthetic overall "cost". Not just dollars, but impacted dollars as well. Supplement to make up for any damage from a synthetic and go on. I find it heartening that these products are becoming more available and will become more cost efficient down the road.

I generally agree with this assessment. I believe the product has great potential for spot control, but for generally pre-emergent applications the cost becomes the deciding factor.

That said, with intelligent soil management and maintenance of thick stands of turf, you may be able to keep your required AI/acre down to a more manageable level (economically speaking).

Certainly we need more field testing here to make any real determinations. ;)

ICT Bill
02-05-2009, 11:12 PM
Send me a trial gallon so I can try it out. ;)

You can order it on our website, our margins are so low we are unable to give any product away. sorry we just can't
If you feel that it was not effective we will be more than happy to give your money back or trade it for other product.

ICT Bill
02-05-2009, 11:16 PM
Piker, I was going to offer a large scale trial with pictures and data collection. One IBC should get it done ;)

See if we can get poa control on bent at 2qts AI/Acre?

I think I saw a poa on bent field trial done by Iowa state believe it or not, I'll have to find it
1 IBC will treat 25.252 acres, 1 pallet will treat 17.6 acres

ICT Bill
02-05-2009, 11:20 PM
As I see it, the limiting factor here is cost. Christian's research suggests they went near double label to get what I would consider to be "good" control. At 10 gallons per acre(label), your cost before bulk discounts is $400 per acre. Double that and get $800 per acre and I think heavy fert and over seeding would give you a better overall control. We are only talking annual weed control from what I have read so far. I know, I'm a kill joy, but this is the point where I have to weigh the organic vs synthetic overall "cost". Not just dollars, but impacted dollars as well. Supplement to make up for any damage from a synthetic and go on. I find it heartening that these products are becoming more available and will become more cost efficient down the road.

I agree with you totally on this, there is a certain price point where you are unable to to affectively do what you need to do and make a profit.

We hope to bring the price point down considerably next year

bicmudpuppy
02-06-2009, 01:36 AM
I think I saw a poa on bent field trial done by Iowa state believe it or not, I'll have to find it
1 IBC will treat 25.252 acres, 1 pallet will treat 17.6 acres

There are not many instances where I would advocate pre-emergent on golf greens. Poa control is one of them, but only in the worst situations. Like anything else, manage for the crop you WANT and the non-target crop should fade away. Lots of golf guys like to complain about Poa, but I have had success in the past with cultural control. My problem with that here is that I have to take a much slower approach. The greens I maintain here have "character". That is a very nice, PC way to say the guy who built them didn't have a CLUE!!!! If I had normal putting surfaces, I would lower the mowing height and increase my vertical mowing and the Poa would weaken while the bentgrass went crazy. The problem lies in that with all the "character" these greens have, increasing the speed of the greens to that level, would make them nearly unplayable. I'm not big on popularity contests, but I don't like coming in dead last either. I will increase my frequency of vertical mowing, improve my topdressing program, manage the water, and control the fertility. Dropping the mow height would multiply the results, but the Poa will still not win the war with the bentgrass under those conditions.

DUSTYCEDAR
02-06-2009, 11:11 AM
poor bill is being beating like a red headed step child
i dont like the price either but thats life
anyone that will stand behind there product like bill does has to have something.
bill what is the shelf life of this product?

Kiril
02-06-2009, 12:50 PM
poor bill is being beating like a red headed step child

ahhhhhhh, the life of a rep. :laugh:

Mr. Nice
02-06-2009, 01:58 PM
Fortunately or unfortunately in life.......

You get what you give or give what you get? Wait I'm confused:confused:

ICT Bill
02-06-2009, 11:43 PM
poor bill is being beating like a red headed step child
i dont like the price either but thats life
anyone that will stand behind there product like bill does has to have something.
bill what is the shelf life of this product?

1 year shelf life, so it will be good for next spring for sure

Let's see, it is more effective, a 9 pound gallon is equivelant to 80 pounds of granular (so it is cheaper to ship), and it costs less.. UHHM! post that question again please

DUSTYCEDAR
02-07-2009, 02:50 PM
Hey bill what is the shelf life of your fine product?

ICT Bill
02-07-2009, 04:02 PM
Hey bill what is the shelf life of your fine product?

We date the bottle and put an expire date on each as well. We claim one year from bottling, it actually has an 18 to 24 month shelf life in a perfect 60-70 degree environment unfortunately the back seat of a truck is not a perfect environment

The labeled claims are a minimum after one year of being bottled

ICT Bill
02-07-2009, 04:04 PM
poor bill is being beating like a red headed step child

I am a red headed step child so it is a beautiful thing

DUSTYCEDAR
02-07-2009, 04:09 PM
thanks bill you rock:dancing:

Prolawnservice
02-08-2009, 07:14 PM
I have a question:waving:

Could this be used on stone areas ???? (how bad will it look?, is it chunky?)
Can it be mixed with a post emergent like scythe ????

Prolawnservice
02-08-2009, 07:22 PM
oh, and mulch beds too?