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grenskpr
01-31-2009, 05:58 AM
Jan 16, 2009, EPA approves continued use of MSMA on Golf Courses, sod farms and right of ways until 2013, when its use and potential harms will be reevaluated.

Residential use will NOT be permited after Dec. 31, 2010.

MSMA uses in Florida, other than cotton, will cease by the end of 2010.

My friends we just lost a valuable tool.

Whitey4
01-31-2009, 09:45 AM
I've been trying to Google up more info... is CAMA or the any other arsenic herbicides also going to be restricted?

Here is what makes little sense to me... it's the farms and golf courses that use the lion's share of MSMA... with all sorts of tests indicating unacceptable levels of aresenic in the ground and even in hay... but they get to keep using it?

grenskpr
01-31-2009, 10:04 AM
The long term outlook for MSMA other than for cotton:

"The task force strongly believes that there is growing scientific evidence that low doses of MSMA DO NOT pose a concern for human health or the enviroment. If an EPA science review in 2012 concurs with this position the task force will petition for a restoration of some or all MSMA uses."

WTF Thanks Al Gore we can kiss it good by lawn care is way down the food chain

grenskpr
01-31-2009, 10:06 AM
the way I read it DSMA and CSMA in Florida only after 12/31/10

Whitey4
01-31-2009, 10:17 AM
http://www.lawnandlandscape.com/news/printer.asp?ID=7617&Source=news



Ruling on Herbicide Finalized
By
1/29/2009
URL: http://www.lawnandlandscape.com/news/news.asp?ID=7617/


On Jan. 16, the MAA Research Task Force (Task Force) signed an agreement with the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), which permits the continued use of MSMA. The agreement ends use of the the herbicide ingredient in residential turf at the end of 2010. The announcement comes about two years after the second comment period ended regarding the propsosal on the regulation of MSMA. (Click here for background information.)

MSMA sale for the use on golf courses, sod farms and highway rights of way will continue until Dec. 31, 2012, with use of stocks permitted until Dec. 31, 2013. During 2012 (before the discontinuation of these uses), EPA, through one of the Agency’s external peer-review groups, will evaluate the scientific information available on any risk posed by inorganic arsenic. The use of MSMA will continue beyond 2013 should the review result in a conclusion that there is no health concern at the doses of exposure resulting from the relevant uses. EPA will also take into account additional information available on the benefits conferred by MSMA. This is particularly important due to the increased problems of weed resistance to products other than MSMA, particularly in the Southeastern United States.

The Task Force is hopeful that the reviews described above will enable EPA to extend these use patterns beyond 2013 and to declare them eligible for re-registration.

The directions for use of MSMA for these applications will be revised as follows:

Golf courses:

One broadcast application will be allowed on newly constructed courses.

Application on existing courses will be limited to spot treatment (100 squre feet per spot), not to exceed 25 percent of the total course in one year.

Sod farms:

Two broadcast applications will be allowed per crop. A 25-foot buffer strip will be required for those fields bordering permanent water bodies.

Highway rights-of-way:

Two broadcast applications will be allowed per year. A 100-foot buffer strip will be required adjacent to permanent water bodies.

Other MSMA Uses

Certain uses of MSMA will not be permitted after Dec. 31, 2010 (sale of MSMA for these uses will stop on Dec. 31, 2009). Those uses are:

Residential turf
Forestry
Non-bearing fruit and nuts
Citrus, bearing and non-bearing
Drainage ditch banks, railroad, pipeline, and utility rights of way, fence rows, storage yards and similar non-crop areas
Bluegrass, fescue and ryegrass grown for seed (this use may be continued till 2013).
MSMA uses in Florida, other than for cotton, will cease and registrants will delete the uses of the related products DSMA, CAMA and DMA (cacodylic acid and its sodium salt), by end of 2010.

The Long Term Outlook for Uses of MSMA Other than Cotton:

The Task Force strongly believes that there is growing scientific evidence that low doses of inorganic arsenic do not pose a concern to human health or to the environment. If an EPA science review, to convene in 2012, concurs with this position, then inorganic arsenic resulting from uses of MSMA will not pose a concern, and the Task Force will petition for restoration of some or all of MSMA uses.

Ric
01-31-2009, 10:28 AM
the way I read it DSMA and CSMA in Florida only after 12/31/10

grenskpr

Florida has become very Green over the last few years, passing all kinds of laws effecting Lawn Care. Water quality and sport fishing seem to the main concern. Florida has also bought out US Sugar's land in the Everglades with plans to turn it back into prehistoric land. Plans to close canals in the Everglades is also part of that. The Ag lobby as well as Golf course have kept them exempt from these new laws so far. One of the main problems here is local ordnances that have no scientific bases are being passed. I am afraid this is only the tip of the iceberg of things to come. The liberal party now in power is very much tree huggers and currently politically correct.

grassman177
01-31-2009, 10:49 AM
that sucks, they better some out with a real alternative by then, quinclorac is good, but no t that good. sufentrazone is good, but not that good. i use Q4 and do get good results, but sometimes msma is needed and when the temps are right, it just smokes crab and nutsedge, they dont have a chance of comeing back after one app.

bohiaa
01-31-2009, 12:36 PM
there was an articule in the TURFF mag, a few months ago about this,

Or was that last year ?

Damn time gets away from me...... Must be the MSMA

ted putnam
01-31-2009, 02:50 PM
Thanks for the detailed update Whitey. I just got done with Arkansas Turfgrass classes where Dr. John Boyd of the U of A Turfgrass Dept gave us an update on MSMA. I had the understanding that we all had use of it through the end of 2012. I either misunderstood or his explanation was not complete. We will be in a world of sh-t without the use of MSMA for Dallisgrass. There is something else(selective weed control) for almost every other grassy weed. When MSMA is gone our only option will be Glyphos. Not a real good option. Oh...he did say use of Revolver offered 65% control with 2-3 apps. For the most part, we're Forked!

Marcos
01-31-2009, 04:35 PM
Thanks for the detailed update Whitey. I just got done with Arkansas Turfgrass classes where Dr. John Boyd of the U of A Turfgrass Dept gave us an update on MSMA. I had the understanding that we all had use of it through the end of 2012. I either misunderstood or his explanation was not complete. We will be in a world of sh-t without the use of MSMA for Dallisgrass. There is something else(selective weed control) for almost every other grassy weed. When MSMA is gone our only option will be Glyphos. Not a real good option. Oh...he did say use of Revolver offered 65% control with 2-3 apps. For the most part, we're Forked!

I mentioned on this forum last summer that MSMA was on the EPA's short list because of its arsenic content, and people (especially from the South) came on here and attacked me from all angles, telling me I was wrong. :confused: Oh well........

Yeah....maybe Revolver's gonna have to take the lead for now. I'm not 100% sure.


What I would suggest to you folks to do is to get in touch with your regional chemical reps and tell them your specific concerns .............in writing.
Get REAL specific about what types of weeds you're worried about controlling in your future business operations with the eventual departure of MSMA.
Write regional representatives at herbicide-producing companies like PBI Gordon, Bayer, Riverdale/Nufarm, Dow, etc...

Alot of green industry folks automatically "assume" there's an army of chemical engineers out there at chemical company X Y and/or Z trying to break the molecular code of each and every weed, alien to America or not.

Truth is...our industry is just a FRACTION of the total clientele of most of these chemical companies, and other industry's reps are out there lobbying and calling on these chemical companies for THEIR needs, too! (particularly...in medicine, as you could imagine!)

Just like in "Who Ville"....If you begin to make your voices heard en masse, you'll indeed begin to be heard.

PSUTURFGEEK
01-31-2009, 08:49 PM
Jan 16, 2009, EPA approves continued use of MSMA on Golf Courses, sod farms and right of ways until 2013, when its use and potential harms will be reevaluated.

Residential use will NOT be permited after Dec. 31, 2010.

MSMA uses in Florida, other than cotton, will cease by the end of 2010.

My friends we just lost a valuable tool.

I just hope all the Guys and Girls in our industry who Voted for Clinton or most recently Dumbo are happy with the impact it will have on our industry, if you do some research into the effect Carroll Browning had on the chemicals we use and the personal agendas she came into office with you will see that we are already heading in that direction once again with Dumbo and his lackeys, If you voted democratic in this past election and if you apply or sell chemicals or fertilizer YOU should consider another industry.

ted putnam
01-31-2009, 09:12 PM
I mentioned on this forum last summer that MSMA was on the EPA's short list because of its arsenic content, and people (especially from the South) came on here and attacked me from all angles, telling me I was wrong. :confused: Oh well........

Yeah....maybe Revolver's gonna have to take the lead for now. I'm not 100% sure.


What I would suggest to you folks to do is to get in touch with your regional chemical reps and tell them your specific concerns .............in writing.
Get REAL specific about what types of weeds you're worried about controlling in your future business operations with the eventual departure of MSMA.
Write regional representatives at herbicide-producing companies like PBI Gordon, Bayer, Riverdale/Nufarm, Dow, etc...

Alot of green industry folks automatically "assume" there's an army of chemical engineers out there at chemical company X Y and/or Z trying to break the molecular code of each and every weed, alien to America or not.

Truth is...our industry is just a FRACTION of the total clientele of most of these chemical companies, and other industry's reps are out there lobbying and calling on these chemical companies for THEIR needs, too! (particularly...in medicine, as you could imagine!)

Just like in "Who Ville"....If you begin to make your voices heard en masse, you'll indeed begin to be heard.

I'm hoping you just used my quote in your post for the information it provided. While I am from the South, I was not one who "attacked" you. I have been hearing for the last 2 yrs that MSMA was on its way out and have occasionally asked my suppliers if there was any "word" in an effort to keep tabs on the situation. I can promise you one thing, I will not be caught with my pants down. I'll put it to you this way...I'm going to make sure I have plenty of supply on hand. I'll just leave it at that...:)

Frontier-Lawn
02-01-2009, 01:30 AM
Jan 16, 2009, EPA approves continued use of MSMA on Golf Courses, sod farms and right of ways until 2013, when its use and potential harms will be reevaluated.

Residential use will NOT be permited after Dec. 31, 2010.

MSMA uses in Florida, other than cotton, will cease by the end of 2010.

My friends we just lost a valuable tool.

just like diazonon any thing that works 2 good gets baned. :cry:
the diazonon's replacement triazide sucks :hammerhead:

Frontier-Lawn
02-01-2009, 01:32 AM
I just hope all the Guys and Girls in our industry who Voted for Clinton or most recently Dumbo are happy with the impact it will have on our industry, If you voted democratic in this past election and if you apply or sell chemicals or fertilizer YOU should consider another industry.


that's why you vote independent

Frontier-Lawn
02-01-2009, 01:35 AM
grenskpr

Florida has become very Green over the last few years, passing all kinds of laws effecting Lawn Care. Water quality and sport fishing seem to the main concern. Florida has also bought out US Sugar's land in the Everglades with plans to turn it back into prehistoric land. Plans to close canals in the Everglades is also part of that. The Ag lobby as well as Golf course have kept them exempt from these new laws so far. One of the main problems here is local ordnances that have no scientific bases are being passed. I am afraid this is only the tip of the iceberg of things to come. The liberal party now in power is very much tree huggers and currently politically correct.


Well Ric i have no problem with the sarasota Fert Reg's since im Certifed, i can sell that to the customers and use that 2 get a little extra cash and close the sale also.

grenskpr
02-01-2009, 08:36 AM
Ted

The way I'm reading this report is MSMA use on lawns will cease after 12/31/10, unlike Dursban that allowed all existing supplies to be used up.
I hope I'm wrong.

John

Whitey4
02-01-2009, 09:50 AM
What bugs me about this:

After surfing the internet quite a bit, it became clear that most, virtually all places that have had unsafe levels of arsenic found in the soil, these "arsenic plumes" have been at golf courses, sod farms, cotton fields and other crop farms including hay which was contaminated. I've yet to find a single report anywhere that unsafe levels of arsenic were found in residential or commercial landscapes.

I found some few places where arsenic levels increased slightly in ground water, but was still well below the levels the EPA has established as safe. Since trace amounts of arsenic are expected to be found that occur naturally in nature, I don't see a slight increase in the levels being enough to justify banning MSMA.

Yet, the same businesses and operations that seem to be the problem are the ones that will be allowed to continue it's use. Seems to me this is about politics and pleasing some self proclaimed "environmentalists", not legislation that is going to protect anyone.

Ric
02-01-2009, 12:34 PM
Well Ric i have no problem with the sarasota Fert Reg's since im Certifed, i can sell that to the customers and use that 2 get a little extra cash and close the sale also.

Dave

Yes I am sure all 5 of your current customers appreciate the fact you sat in Don Rainzes BMP class for 4 hours and passed the 20 question multiply question test to be certified to put down Fert in Sarasota County. I have the same Certification even though I no longer travel to Sarasota County. One reason I no longer service Sarasota County is because it is illegal to apply Nitrogen or Phosphate Fertilizer from June 1st to Sept 30th each year or our traditional growing and rainy season. Good luck on trying to build a health lawn on all 5 of your customers.

tremor
02-01-2009, 04:23 PM
.......................yikes!

Marcos
02-01-2009, 11:41 PM
I'm hoping you just used my quote in your post for the information it provided.

That's all it was. :waving:

I'd also read something about Revolver taking over in the long haul to a certain extent for some of MSMA's applications, and I merely just keyed on the 1st post in this thread where I saw the trade name.... "Revolver".

Marcos
02-02-2009, 12:02 AM
What bugs me about this:

After surfing the internet quite a bit, it became clear that most, virtually all places that have had unsafe levels of arsenic found in the soil, these "arsenic plumes" have been at golf courses, sod farms, cotton fields and other crop farms including hay which was contaminated. I've yet to find a single report anywhere that unsafe levels of arsenic were found in residential or commercial landscapes.

I found some few places where arsenic levels increased slightly in ground water, but was still well below the levels the EPA has established as safe. Since trace amounts of arsenic are expected to be found that occur naturally in nature, I don't see a slight increase in the levels being enough to justify banning MSMA.

Yet, the same businesses and operations that seem to be the problem are the ones that will be allowed to continue it's use. Seems to me this is about politics and pleasing some self proclaimed "environmentalists", not legislation that is going to protect anyone.

Not necessarily taking up the "other side" of the argument here, but yes, arsenic is found in trace levels in well water in varying degrees throughout many different cross-sections of soil types.


The EPA probably doesn't want to further exponentially compound into the future the man-made arsenic damage to our groundwater reserves that's already been done, and is being done now with the continued use of MSMA.

Arsenic is quite a different animal than many other common pollutants in that it's somewhat more difficult (because of the higher levels of filtration involved) to effectively & efficiently filter out of the drinking water supply.

Whitey4
02-02-2009, 10:48 AM
Not necessarily taking up the "other side" of the argument here, but yes, arsenic is found in trace levels in well water in varying degrees throughout many different cross-sections of soil types.


The EPA probably doesn't want to further exponentially compound into the future the man-made arsenic damage to our groundwater reserves that's already been done, and is being done now with the continued use of MSMA.

Arsenic is quite a different animal than many other common pollutants in that it's somewhat more difficult (because of the higher levels of filtration involved) to effectively & efficiently filter out of the drinking water supply.

It is yet to be proven that the organic arsenic in these chemicals undergoes some sort of binding with soil that causes the breakdown observed in lab studies to cease or be arrested.

Golf courses get all kinds of foot traffic and are a source of direct human exposure, yet the golf courses will continue to apply what, five times a year? Most ground plumes of arsenic are found in front of storage sheds on golf courses. It's used on athletic fields. The primary polluters will still be able to use it, but landscapers who have never as far as I know haven't been found responsible for high arsenic levels won't. Something wrong with that picture.

DUSTYCEDAR
02-02-2009, 11:07 AM
Oh well got to keep up or they will run you over

philk17088
02-02-2009, 11:26 AM
Do you guys in the south use that much MSMA? I use it for spot treating only.
Do you have a lot of trouble with breakthru on pre-emerges that require a lot of post applications?
Is it due to high irrigation?
I refuse to treat post crab on a new customer after May 1. I tell them they have to live with it until the next year.

DUSTYCEDAR
02-02-2009, 11:29 AM
q4 ...............................

Grassmechanic
02-02-2009, 12:13 PM
I am afraid this is only the tip of the iceberg of things to come. The liberal party now in power is very much tree huggers and currently politically correct.

No truer words have been spoken. :waving:

Pesticides and ferts will all be under the gun for the next 4 years. Before we know it, it'll be illegal to pee on a weed.

grassman177
02-02-2009, 12:43 PM
q4 is great, but msma was better and covered dallisgrass. nothing else with kill dallisgrass and although i dont see much here, i do have to use it a little for this wed

KACYDS
02-02-2009, 01:51 PM
Before we know it, it'll be illegal to pee on a weed.

I hate to see that...............lol:laugh:

Ric
02-02-2009, 03:08 PM
No truer words have been spoken. :waving:

Pesticides and ferts will all be under the gun for the next 4 years. Before we know it, it'll be illegal to pee on a weed.

Grassmechanic

I forget which fool knocked me for claiming university websites were no longer giving good pesticide information, and only pushing Green biological solutions. But the truth is we must recognize our industry is under attack. Those who think they can only pick fruit from the top of the tree will soon have their ladder pulled out from under them. I am now marketing to the low hanging fruit even though at present time I am very happy with my eye level fruit. But unless you are constantly moving ahead, you will fall behind. BTW low hanging fruit can be just as sweet as tree top fruit without the hassle of climbing the ladder.

Marcos
02-03-2009, 02:52 PM
It is yet to be proven that the organic arsenic in these chemicals undergoes some sort of binding with soil that causes the breakdown observed in lab studies to cease or be arrested.

Golf courses get all kinds of foot traffic and are a source of direct human exposure, yet the golf courses will continue to apply what, five times a year? Most ground plumes of arsenic are found in front of storage sheds on golf courses. It's used on athletic fields. The primary polluters will still be able to use it, but landscapers who have never as far as I know haven't been found responsible for high arsenic levels won't. Something wrong with that picture.

Oh...This is easy...It's all a game of NUMBERS, people! :waving:

(Again, not necessarily taking sides, just trying to illustrate a picture of what's probably going on in the minds of EPA people right now. :waving:)

Golf courses & (specific) athletic field applications are pesticide targets that are easily identifiable by geography, and thus can be be monitored over time by immediately adjacent well water groundwater readings.
If there's ever a BLATANT problem, a state agent can effectively shut down a specific facility's ability to spray MSMA (or any other chemical that's detected over a tolerable level, for that matter.)

Look at this scenario, and compare it to the virtual nightmare that's involved in keeping track of the spraying records of the bucco # of LANDSCAPE APPLICATIONS of MSMA, and the subsequent potential liability involved in the adjacent groundwater of the exponential # of bordering jurisdictions!

Also.........speaking of "number$".
The golf course industry, in particular, has a much, much better organized LOBBYING organizination, compared to ANYBODY else in the U.S. Green Industry!!!
Enough said ?!?

Whitey4
02-03-2009, 03:42 PM
Oh...This is easy...It's all a game of NUMBERS, people! :waving:

(Again, not necessarily taking sides, just trying to illustrate a picture of what's probably going on in the minds of EPA people right now. :waving:)

Golf courses & (specific) athletic field applications are pesticide targets that are easily identifiable by geography, and thus can be be monitored over time by immediately adjacent well water groundwater readings.
If there's ever a BLATANT problem, a state agent can effectively shut down a specific facility's ability to spray MSMA (or any other chemical that's detected over a tolerable level, for that matter.)

Look at this scenario, and compare it to the virtual nightmare that's involved in keeping track of the spraying records of the bucco # of LANDSCAPE APPLICATIONS of MSMA, and the subsequent potential liability involved in the adjacent groundwater of the exponential # of bordering jurisdictions!

Also.........speaking of "number$".
The golf course industry, in particular, has a much, much better organized LOBBYING organizination, compared to ANYBODY else in the U.S. Green Industry!!!
Enough said ?!?

They broadcast spray... we spot spray. Nuff said.

Marcos
02-03-2009, 04:05 PM
Oh...This is easy...It's all a game of NUMBERS, people!

(Again, not necessarily taking sides, just trying to illustrate a picture of what's probably going on in the minds of EPA people right now. )

Golf courses & (specific) athletic field applications are pesticide targets that are easily identifiable by geography, and thus can be be monitored over time by immediately adjacent well water groundwater readings.
If there's ever a BLATANT problem, a state agent can effectively shut down a specific facility's ability to spray MSMA (or any other chemical that's detected over a tolerable level, for that matter.)

Look at this scenario, and compare it to the virtual nightmare that's involved in keeping track of the spraying records of the bucco # of LANDSCAPE APPLICATIONS of MSMA, and the subsequent potential liability involved in the adjacent groundwater of the exponential # of bordering jurisdictions!

Also.........speaking of "number$".
The golf course industry, in particular, has a much, much better organized LOBBYING organizination, compared to ANYBODY else in the U.S. Green Industry!!!
Enough said ?!?

They broadcast spray... we spot spray. Nuff said.

Those are two pretty brash statements to make, Whitey:

To to say that ALL G.C. supers fail to use I.P.M. in their spraying affairs?

And to say that ALL lawn/landscape contractors do!?! :confused:

Whitey4
02-03-2009, 04:50 PM
Oh...This is easy...It's all a game of NUMBERS, people!

(Again, not necessarily taking sides, just trying to illustrate a picture of what's probably going on in the minds of EPA people right now. )

Golf courses & (specific) athletic field applications are pesticide targets that are easily identifiable by geography, and thus can be be monitored over time by immediately adjacent well water groundwater readings.
If there's ever a BLATANT problem, a state agent can effectively shut down a specific facility's ability to spray MSMA (or any other chemical that's detected over a tolerable level, for that matter.)

Look at this scenario, and compare it to the virtual nightmare that's involved in keeping track of the spraying records of the bucco # of LANDSCAPE APPLICATIONS of MSMA, and the subsequent potential liability involved in the adjacent groundwater of the exponential # of bordering jurisdictions!

Also.........speaking of "number$".
The golf course industry, in particular, has a much, much better organized LOBBYING organizination, compared to ANYBODY else in the U.S. Green Industry!!!
Enough said ?!?



Those are two pretty brash statements to make, Whitey:

To to say that ALL G.C. supers fail to use I.P.M. in their spraying affairs?

And to say that ALL lawn/landscape contractors do!?! :confused:

It's a generaliztion, but not one that is way off base.

Marcos
02-04-2009, 10:06 AM
Those are two pretty brash statements to make, Whitey:

To to say that ALL G.C. supers fail to use I.P.M. in their spraying affairs?

And to say that ALL lawn/landscape contractors do!?!


It's a generaliztion, but not one that is way off base.

I hasten to disagree with you!
Golf course superintendents, by and large, are some of the most polished and well-trained chemical applicators in this industry.
They know what I.P.M. is all about.
Go look at any super's chemical barn; you'll likely see hand tanks lining the walls! :waving:

In fact...a couple of locals I still talk to these days were former lawn care company owners who sold their companies to TGCL & retired, but couldn't stay away from their "work", if you know what I mean! :laugh:

So they proceeded to look around and pick up some materials they needed to study to learn about the "golf side" of turf, soils, pesticides, etc...and they soon were natural shoe-ins for getting the jobs, largely because they've both been golfers most of their adult lives.

Whitey4
02-04-2009, 10:44 AM
Those are two pretty brash statements to make, Whitey:

To to say that ALL G.C. supers fail to use I.P.M. in their spraying affairs?

And to say that ALL lawn/landscape contractors do!?!




I hasten to disagree with you!
Golf course superintendents, by and large, are some of the most polished and well-trained chemical applicators in this industry.
They know what I.P.M. is all about.
Go look at any super's chemical barn; you'll likely see hand tanks lining the walls! :waving:

In fact...a couple of locals I still talk to these days were former lawn care company owners who sold their companies to TGCL & retired, but couldn't stay away from their "work", if you know what I mean! :laugh:

So they proceeded to look around and pick up some materials they needed to study to learn about the "golf side" of turf, soils, pesticides, etc...and they soon were natural shoe-ins for getting the jobs, largely because they've both been golfers most of their adult lives.

Sometime Marcos, you just want to argue. IPM? When did I say anything about IPM? I didn't.

What I said was that golf courses and cotton farms etc use more, much more MSMA than landscapers do. I also said that most, if not all documented ground plumes of arsenic have come from these operations, like the one I read about in Florida which was located in front of a storage shed.

When was the last time you saw a golf course spot spraying for crabgrass instead of using a boom sprayer? Or a cotton field farmer? Have you ever heard of any residential pesticide application company broadcast spray for crab grass? That would be not only too costly and waste too much product, drift would be a real issue in and amoung houses in close proximity.

Stop using the word ALL and then say I used it. YOU used it, not me. Geeze... you can be very contrarian.

ted putnam
02-04-2009, 10:53 AM
Not to mention guys...the Hwy depts. At the meetings I went to a couple of weeks ago the "Ram Rod" of the spray division AHD was there. He was shaking his head and didn't like the discussion of the possible loss of use of MSMA. Let's see...what are they spraying? roadsides and ditches. Do you think there's any runoff there? How many miles of hwy do you think there are in the state of Arkansas...Just some food for thought!

Marcos
02-04-2009, 11:19 AM
Sometime Marcos, you just want to argue. IPM? When did I say anything about IPM? I didn't.

Yes, I do! :) I brought up I.P.M into this conversation, because it was an apropos term

What I said was that golf courses and cotton farms etc use more, much more MSMA than landscapers do. I also said that most, if not all documented ground plumes of arsenic have come from these operations, like the one I read about in Florida which was located in front of a storage shed.

I'm not arguing that golf courses & farmers use "more" MSMA, taken as a whole they certainly do. My point is that golf courses and farms are EASILY IDENTIFIABLE sources. The bucco # of residential & business accounts you may have on your lawn/landscape ledger AREN'T!!

When was the last time you saw a golf course spot spraying for crabgrass instead of using a boom sprayer?

Golf course guys use booms, yes. But they also run around with hand tanks on the side of their ATV's and golf carts, etc!

Or a cotton field farmer?

Farmers are quickly learning to use data obtained from satellites to know what part of their fields to spray, and what part not to. What parts to fertilize, what parts not to, etc...It's all becoming computer-automated to the point to where the farmer just sits in the cab, stares ahead and sips coffee :laugh:


Have you ever heard of any residential pesticide application company broadcast spray for crab grass? That would be not only too costly and waste too much product, drift would be a real issue in and amoung houses in close proximity.

Just tune into THIS forum during June, July, August...you'll see threads containing posts with people doing this ALL OVER THE PLACE!!!
Geeze... you can be very contrarian.

yeah...just ask my wife, the "againster" :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Marcos
02-04-2009, 11:42 AM
Not to mention guys...the Hwy depts. At the meetings I went to a couple of weeks ago the "Ram Rod" of the spray division AHD was there. He was shaking his head and didn't like the discussion of the possible loss of use of MSMA. Let's see...what are they spraying? roadsides and ditches. Do you think there's any runoff there? How many miles of hwy do you think there are in the state of Arkansas...Just some food for thought!

I feel for you fellows in the South where the pressure's always on.
"Roadsides & ditches"....so who's really going to notice if it's over applied, and there's some burn damage?

Frankly, I don't know of any applicators who still use MSMA around this corner of Ohio. There may be some, though. I don't know all of 'em.

MSMA's had a long, notorious history of lawn torching in certain circles around here, especially when its placed in the hands of folks who don't have a true grasp of what they're doing during drought periods...and/or they fail to communicate to their customers the proper post-application irrigation procedures. :cry: :cry: :cry:

Whitey4
02-04-2009, 12:15 PM
yeah...just ask my wife, the "againster" :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Maybe in the south due to the much longer growing season broadcasting MSMA might be considered a good practice, but I can't speak for the south.

In my area, one good pre-M will do the trick with some spot spraying for the typical, average property. Yes, I also happen to hand pull crabgrass and other weeds during the course of my day. I'm not about to walk away from a perfect front lawn with one or two freakin dandelions smiling at me while I drive away.

For heavy infestations, this year it'll be .29 Barricade with a follow up of straight pendi in June. Around here, if an applicator used MSMA as a broadcast app, I'd say he's doing something very wrong and wasting serious coin. I've never seen or heard about MSMA being used here for residentials as a broadcast treatment... only the golf courses, and I do speak with other folks here at my assoc meetings. (these meeting usually feature a speaker who has the credentials to give us credits for our apps cert renewals).

Marcos
02-04-2009, 01:22 PM
Maybe in the south due to the much longer growing season broadcasting MSMA might be considered a good practice, but I can't speak for the south.

In my area, one good pre-M will do the trick with some spot spraying for the typical, average property. Yes, I also happen to hand pull crabgrass and other weeds during the course of my day. I'm not about to walk away from a perfect front lawn with one or two freakin dandelions smiling at me while I drive away.

For heavy infestations, this year it'll be .29 Barricade with a follow up of straight pendi in June. Around here, if an applicator used MSMA as a broadcast app, I'd say he's doing something very wrong and wasting serious coin. I've never seen or heard about MSMA being used here for residentials as a broadcast treatment... only the golf courses, and I do speak with other folks here at my assoc meetings. (these meeting usually feature a speaker who has the credentials to give us credits for our apps cert renewals).

With the rise of highly diversified products like Acclaim, Drive DF and Q4, MSMA's become more and more obsolete and "old-technology" over time, anyway.

The only folks I can envision using MSMA (around here at least :rolleyes:) would be folks out shopping the shelves trying to cut corners, trying to get around the higher cost/acre ... cost/1000 of the aforementioned newer-technology pesticides.

But taking in consideration that 4 out of 5 southern Ohio mid-late summer overall growing conditions end up being some level or another of DROUGHT:cry:.... Most assuredly, decisions like that'll likely come back to kick these people right squarely in the tush!!! :laugh:

Chilehead
02-04-2009, 07:12 PM
It will be a cold day in hell before I stop using MSMA in residential lawns. This case is similar to what happened with Dursban, but I think it is more politically motivated. Dursban was a top notch chemical when it came to killing insect pests in people's yards. People started to over-apply it which resulted in poisoning cases. This was a shame because it led to the product's demise. If the EPA thinks that they are going to pull MSMA off the shelves for LCOs like you and me, then I definitely am going to stock up on it now.

grassman177
02-04-2009, 07:36 PM
yeah, i thin ki will too. there is just a perfect nitch you have to use it on. i dont use it often, but want it when i need it. i was glad to see better easier to use chemicals like quinclorac that is premixed in other products and such, but dont want to lose such a performer for those really bad lawns and circumstances. i loved trimec plus, it is really great for those absoluty horrific lawns.

greendoctor
02-05-2009, 01:06 AM
I have no other option. Both Drive and Dismiss are illegal in Hawaii. It is not a routine procedure for me to broadcast MSMA, but I need to do it for lawns that are heavily infested with dallisgrass, goosegrass and nameless other grassy weeds that are visitations from hell here in paradise. There are already reports of goosegrass strains tolerant to Revolver. Golf courses here abuse Revolver because they can spot spray it without burning holes in the turf. Acclaim cannot be used on bermuda. In zoysia, Acclaim + Turflon ester rocks. I suspect many lawns will either have to be converted to zoysia or they will be weed patches with 10 different varieties of nameless grasses.

I hope advice like this does not have to do with why MSMA is leaching into the water table in places like Florida. It is my policy not to spray if rain is forecast within the next 24 hours.

http://floridaturf.com/problems/bermspra.htm

I have been told about how it rains about an inch in less than an hour almost every afternoon in the summer. Chemicals will leach under those circumstances. If anything leaches into ground water, it is in the crosshairs. BTW, the reason why Dismiss and Drive are prohibited in Hawaii is the DOA thinks it has a high potential for leaching and does not want to have to remove it from usage soon after approving it.

grenskpr
02-05-2009, 08:07 AM
Guys, am I reading this thing wrong? The way I read it residential use will NOT be permited it says nothing about using up existing supplies. Stocking up on material will do nothing but make your shop a sitting duck for state boys. I'm going to call our inspector today and try to get a straight anwser, I'll post what his take on it is.

John

Marcos
02-05-2009, 04:03 PM
Whitey, Chilehead, grassman, greendoctor, grenskpr.....

Really nothing else to add, except...start writing letters/ e-mailing your various regional chemical reps.

No better time than now...before you get sucked up into the spring break out! :)