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robertsturf
02-03-2009, 03:15 PM
My fert sales rep told me about a product that I could use for spraying the rip-rack along a retention pond called Glyphomate. It is also labeled for aquatics use but I would not be using it for that aspect. I was wanting to find a local source for this product. I am in the Kansas City area. Is there a brand name I could look for?

turf hokie
02-03-2009, 03:38 PM
My fert sales rep told me about a product that I could use for spraying the rip-rack along a retention pond called Glyphomate. It is also labeled for aquatics use but I would not be using it for that aspect. I was wanting to find a local source for this product. I am in the Kansas City area. Is there a brand name I could look for?

I dont know that particular name brand but we have used Prosecutor (not Pro) for this very situation. It does not have surfactant in it and is labeled. "To water line" which suits this situation perfectly.

Although I think the Prosecutor line is being discontinued since the JDL merger so check into plain Roundup.

Just an option.

ro1207
02-03-2009, 04:30 PM
Glyphomate is a PBI Gordon's product and is 41% Glyphosate. You can find this at any PBI Gordons dealer. Any product that is 41% Glyphosate can be used for this purpose. Razor, Razor Pro, Prosecutor, Prosecutor Pro, Round up Pro etc.... These products are all the same stuff.

robertsturf
02-03-2009, 04:43 PM
Glyphomate is a PBI Gordon's product and is 41% Glyphosate. You can find this at any PBI Gordons dealer. Any product that is 41% Glyphosate can be used for this purpose. Razor, Razor Pro, Prosecutor, Prosecutor Pro, Round up Pro etc.... These products are all the same stuff.

Check the label on the products you are supposed to keep so many feet away from drainage or water sources. Also the PPE for the Prosecutor product requires cover-alls in addition the gloves, shoes, etc..

Ric
02-03-2009, 06:33 PM
turf hokie & ro1207

Both of you have posted Misinformation. I suggest you both read the labels of all products you have recommended for this application. If in fact you can not figure out why you have given misinformation please post back and I will explain it to you.

turf hokie
02-03-2009, 06:49 PM
turf hokie & ro1207

Both of you have posted Misinformation. I suggest you both read the labels of all products you have recommended for this application. If in fact you can not figure out why you have given misinformation please post back and I will explain it to you.

Ok Ric you got me (I think this is it)

the prosecutor label actually states.
"Do not apply directly to water, to areas where surface water is present or to intertidal areas below the mean high water mark."

I was wrong to say "to water line". But the prduct would still work for what he is looking to do.

But like I said I dont beleive prosecutor will make the cut with the JDL merger so it may be a moot point and I said to look into plain round-up as an option.

Please let me know if I am missing something.
Thanks
Bryan

Ric
02-03-2009, 07:07 PM
Ok Ric you got me (I think this is it)

the prosecutor label actually states.
"Do not apply directly to water, to areas where surface water is present or to intertidal areas below the mean high water mark."

I was wrong to say "to water line". But the prduct would still work for what he is looking to do.

But like I said I dont beleive prosecutor will make the cut with the JDL merger so it may be a moot point and I said to look into plain round-up as an option.

Please let me know if I am missing something.
Thanks
Bryan


Bryan

You are not alone, Many think they know or understand chemical labels yet never fully read or understand the label or how a product is to be used. Glyphosate a lone is not harmful the Aquatic life however the surfactant in all the products you list is. Yes 41% glyphosate has surfactants. 53.8% Glyphosate normally doesn't have surfactants. MSO is a surfactant that can have an Aquatic Label and is commonly used for Aquatic application.

As robertsturf has pointed out, 41% Glyphosate is not labeled to be sprayed in drainage ditches.

turf hokie
02-03-2009, 07:34 PM
Ric,

My understanding was that the prosecutor did not have any surfactant in it, matter of fact the label suggests adding a non-ionic surfactant. This is why I was specific about NOT using the "pro" version which has the surfactant.

Am I not correct? Are you saying all 41% Gly has a surfactant already in it?

The reason I ask is the round-up pro says "41% Gly, other ingredients(including surfactant)59%" but the prosecutor only has 41% Gly and 59% inert.

robertsturf
02-03-2009, 08:41 PM
Ok Ric you got me (I think this is it)

the prosecutor label actually states.
"Do not apply directly to water, to areas where surface water is present or to intertidal areas below the mean high water mark."

I was wrong to say "to water line". But the prduct would still work for what he is looking to do.

But like I said I dont beleive prosecutor will make the cut with the JDL merger so it may be a moot point and I said to look into plain round-up as an option.

Please let me know if I am missing something.
Thanks
Bryan
Applying to the water line is the issue. The rip-rak goes to the water-line so care has to be given when applying in these areas. Again no one has answered my main question. Is there a specific product I can buy that has the Glyphomate in it for this purpose?? I do appreciate everyones input on this question.

Ric
02-03-2009, 11:00 PM
Ric,

My understanding was that the prosecutor did not have any surfactant in it, matter of fact the label suggests adding a non-ionic surfactant. This is why I was specific about NOT using the "pro" version which has the surfactant.

Am I not correct? Are you saying all 41% Gly has a surfactant already in it?

The reason I ask is the round-up pro says "41% Gly, other ingredients(including surfactant)59%" but the prosecutor only has 41% Gly and 59% inert.

Turf

Prosecutor is in fact Roundup Original produced and packaged by Monsanto for Lesco by special marketing agreement. Prosecutor Pro is Roundup Pro. Yes it has a surfactant that was tested and found to cause mutation in Frogs. Frogs are normally used for testing chemicals because they are very susceptible to chemicals. It is the surfactant and not the Glyphosate that cause Aquatic problems. Therefore Roundup-Prosecutor is restricted use in and around water sheds by label.

My suggestion to you (and everyone) is to read and study every chemical you use to become totally familiar with their use and restrictions. If you want to become a professional then you must act like a professional and keep studying your profession.

turf hokie
02-04-2009, 01:54 AM
Turf

Prosecutor is in fact Roundup Original produced and packaged by Monsanto for Lesco by special marketing agreement. Prosecutor Pro is Roundup Pro. Yes it has a surfactant that was tested and found to cause mutation in Frogs. Frogs are normally used for testing chemicals because they are very susceptible to chemicals. It is the surfactant and not the Glyphosate that cause Aquatic problems. Therefore Roundup-Prosecutor is restricted use in and around water sheds by label.

My suggestion to you (and everyone) is to read and study every chemical you use to become totally familiar with their use and restrictions. If you want to become a professional then you must act like a professional and keep studying your profession.

I understand the whole prosecutor=roundup and prosecutor pro=roundup pro equation.

My question to you is that you are saying prosecutor has surfactant in it, yet the label does not state that it does. Prosecutor also states not to use "below the mean high water mark" which if read correctly means you can spray it up to the point the the water will eventually be its highest. Therefore, you are allowed to spray the rip rack or in my area "rip-rap" up to the point that the high tide will come to.

This is precisely the application he is looking for, and why would you spray below high tide mark anyway, nothing should be growing there anyway.

Also, glyphomate is a brand name some one puts on a bottle that has glyphosate in it so stop looking for a product with glyphomate in it.

And if you have not noticed we are very much involved in getting you a correct answer to your question. Because if Ric will agree that prosecutor has no surfactant and reads the label correctly in that you can spray up to the high tide mark, then you will be able to use round-up (NOT Round-up PRO) for your application.

meomypete
02-04-2009, 07:14 AM
There are about 100 different products with 41% Glyphosate. This must be one. SXag.com might be a source if you buy 5 gallons or even bulk truck loads.

Be sure to buy the plus which indicates a sufactant in included.

Ric
02-04-2009, 12:39 PM
Pete

Glyphosate comes in 30 gallon drums if you need it in that quantity. But there is surfactant in most all Glyphosate products not labeled for Aquatics. Just Pro has Surfactant that gives better response and you pay for that response.

Turf

It is not my job to read the label to you or approve your application method or site. That is the job of the CPOIC (certified pesticide operator in charge). BTW I am not the CPOIC of your operation. You will just have to do it for yourself.

meomypete
02-04-2009, 01:19 PM
The web site is xsag.com.

xsag will need a pesticide licence for the restriced products. I believe that Glyphosate produces are not restricted. some places in the Midwest have free shioing so now the price is about $25/gal and $20/gal in large shipments.

turf hokie
02-04-2009, 01:54 PM
Turf

It is not my job to read the label to you or approve your application method or site. That is the job of the CPOIC (certified pesticide operator in charge). BTW I am not the CPOIC of your operation. You will just have to do it for yourself.

Thank oh so very much.

You said I gave mis-information. I paraphrased the label orginally, my mistake. I then quoted directly from the label. I asked you a question about surfactant and glyphosate. You did not answer my question but tell me it is not your job to read the label to me. Fine, I will assume this means that I am correct in that prosecutor has no surfactant and this is how you let me know that.

No round-up and prosecutor are not labeled for aquatic use, this is not the place of application in the original question.

Spraying prosecutor on the rip rap up to the mean high water mark and not "below the mean high water mark" is a good application according the the label that I have managed to read all by myself.

So Robert, my answer to you after all this nonsense is
Prosecutor will work in your case, LESCO/JDL will be able to help you if they are in your area. Check the round-up label as I dont have it in front of me, this wording should be found around page 2. I have sprayed prosecutor in this very case RIGHT NEXT TO A DEC SUBSTATION and they did not even look at me twice. So I guess my CPOIC dun gud.

grass4gas
02-04-2009, 03:57 PM
Glyphomate is a PBI Gordon's product and is 41% Glyphosate. You can find this at any PBI Gordons dealer. Any product that is 41% Glyphosate can be used for this purpose. Razor, Razor Pro, Prosecutor, Prosecutor Pro, Round up Pro etc.... These products are all the same stuff.

The label says it all...weed and grass killer plus aquatic herbicide

Ric
02-04-2009, 06:41 PM
I understand the whole prosecutor=roundup and prosecutor pro=roundup pro equation.

My question to you is that you are saying prosecutor has surfactant in it, yet the label does not state that it does. Prosecutor also states not to use "below the mean high water mark" which if read correctly means you can spray it up to the point the the water will eventually be its highest. Therefore, you are allowed to spray the rip rack or in my area "rip-rap" up to the point that the high tide will come to.

This is precisely the application he is looking for, and why would you spray below high tide mark anyway, nothing should be growing there anyway.

Also, glyphomate is a brand name some one puts on a bottle that has glyphosate in it so stop looking for a product with glyphomate in it.

And if you have not noticed we are very much involved in getting you a correct answer to your question. Because if Ric will agree that prosecutor has no surfactant and reads the label correctly in that you can spray up to the high tide mark, then you will be able to use round-up (NOT Round-up PRO) for your application.

Turf

I hate discussing facts with a fool who has no common sense. You quoted only half a paragraph off the Roundup label. The label goes on to say "DO NOT CONTAMINATE WATER". Read down the label just a Little to the top of page 5 to the paragraph just above Section 7.2 entitled SENSITIVE AREAS. one more time the label cautions not to contaminate water. Spraying Rip Rap is applying to a area that is sensitive and will contaminate water.

turf hokie
02-04-2009, 07:20 PM
Turf

I hate discussing facts with a fool who has no common sense. You quoted only half a paragraph off the Roundup label. The label goes on to say "DO NOT CONTAMINATE WATER". Read down the label just a Little to the top of page 5 to the paragraph just above Section 7.2 entitled SENSITIVE AREAS. one more time the label cautions not to contaminate water. Spraying Rip Rap is applying to a area that is sensitive and will contaminate water.

Ahh, yes it was just a matter of time before you resorted to your typical name calling. I have specifically said I DO NOT have the roundup label in front of me and I am quoting off the prosecutor label. The prosecutor label reads as follows "Do Not contaminate water WHEN DISPOSING OF EQUIPMENT WASHWATERS" YOU my friend failed to complete the sentence. Which is on page 1

Yes I readily admit that spraying rip rap is a sensitive area and caution must be taken when spraying. However, it is perfectly within the label to spray to the point of "mean high water mark", you WILL NOT contaminate the water as you have not sprayed to the area that the water will rise, thus the water will never come in contact with the chemical.

So either you label for roundup is different than the label for prosecutor, which at this point I will assume is....otherwise I will have to resort to some name calling myself.

robertsturf
02-04-2009, 07:36 PM
Ok Ric and Turf Hokie can you guys stop your pissing match and answer my original question? That is one thing I hate about this site, guys get off point and try to show how much they know about a topic and end up bloviating to no end. IT DRIVES ME UP THE WALL!@!! Both of you guys make good points and are correct in some aspect of your arguments and are probably very good at what you do. I was just wanting a simple question (I thought) answered about availability of Glyphomate. BTW I checked with JDL and they can only get it in 2.5 gal containers. That would last me 5 years.

turf hokie
02-04-2009, 07:53 PM
Robert, I am sorry for the hijack, I feel like Kiril and Rodney right now.

I did not realize that you were looking for a smaller quantity than 2.5 gallons when I suggested JDl.

If you have not come across a list of local vendors....Attached is a website that lists your local vendors. pbigordon produces a 1 gallon jug but it comes in 4 gallon cases. I would say after reading the label, yes even fools can read....sorry....that glyphomate is probably your best bet if you can get it in the size jug you are looking for. You are right Prosecutor will not be available in anything smaller than a 2.5.

Hopefully, this helps. (and maybe will make up for my little schoolyard tiff)

http://www.pbigordon.com/locator/results_list.php?zip=64050&showsurrounding=1&user1=Yes

olive123
02-04-2009, 08:50 PM
:walking:
um... why dont you just use diquat...:drinkup:

rcreech
02-04-2009, 09:11 PM
Robert, I am sorry for the hijack, I feel like Kiril and Rodney right now.



What's that supposed to mean!!! :laugh:

robertsturf
02-04-2009, 09:44 PM
Robert, I am sorry for the hijack, I feel like Kiril and Rodney right now.

I did not realize that you were looking for a smaller quantity than 2.5 gallons when I suggested JDl.

If you have not come across a list of local vendors....Attached is a website that lists your local vendors. pbigordon produces a 1 gallon jug but it comes in 4 gallon cases. I would say after reading the label, yes even fools can read....sorry....that glyphomate is probably your best bet if you can get it in the size jug you are looking for. You are right Prosecutor will not be available in anything smaller than a 2.5.

Hopefully, this helps. (and maybe will make up for my little schoolyard tiff)

http://www.pbigordon.com/locator/results_list.php?zip=64050&showsurrounding=1&user1=Yes

Thats ok. BTW the name is Trent. Roberts is my last name. I will check out the web-site. If I have to order a 2.5 gal I will. I just hate keeping stuff that long. Again thanks for the input!!

Mr. Nice
02-05-2009, 09:01 AM
Roundup is not one substance, but a water based solution containing an herbicide called glyphosate, a sufactant, and other substances. (WIKI) err...

The RD UP pro just has more surfactant. It would only make sense there's some surfactant or other additives in regular gly for land apps to make it more effective for that purpose.??

Making it unsuitable for aquatic apps with these extra ingredient's???

Always read your labels!.....and if that's not enough for you ask some one who knows better then you.....tell'em ol'ric

It blows me away some of you call your selves pro's:confused:

Ric
02-05-2009, 09:19 AM
Roundup is not one substance, but a water based solution containing an herbicide called glyphosate, a sufactant, and other substances. (WIKI) err...

The RD UP pro just has more surfactant. It would only make sense there's some surfactant or other additives in regular gly for land apps to make it more effective for that purpose.??

Making it unsuitable for aquatic apps with these extra ingredient's???

Always read your labels!.....and if that's not enough for you ask some one who knows better then you.....tell'em ol'ric

It blows me away some of you call your selves pro's:confused:

Thank You Mr Nice

I can't believe some of the misconceptions, misinformation and lack of common sense that hit these forums from lawn boys. I think some state give pesticide certification away at the local drug store. Oh wait I forgot, most state certification for lawns is only a tax stamp.

Mr. Nice
02-05-2009, 09:35 AM
Ric,

No problem, I had to comment on this. Correct info here is critical to all concerned.

I encourage all to constantly keep researching and learning. There is never a point in one's life they can say they know it all?

If you think you right? prove it with facts not hearsay....

Ric
02-05-2009, 09:44 AM
Mr Nice

It takes about 3 years of study and observation to become a beginner and 3 life times to become a real pro. I started into this business as an expert and some day hope to know nothing. I am just starting to realize as I am close to finished my first life time how much I don't know.

Mr. Nice
02-05-2009, 09:49 AM
I started into this business as an expert and some day hope to know nothing.


.......:laugh:

treegal1
02-05-2009, 09:49 AM
Eliminator - Non-Selective Herbicide, duel use and labeled for this very use.

it ain't gly!!!!

I know less than nothing

nik
02-05-2009, 11:08 AM
There are over two dozen aquatic use products with glyphosate that one can also use on land. Those would allow to to get right up to the edge of the water regardless high water mark issues. Licensing requirements for your state may mean you need to get certified to apply to water. It's more of a pain but it gives you some overlap.

You also need to determine what mean high water mark is in your state. There is some difference.

If your looking at woody or broadleaf vegetation there are products like Garlon 3A or its clones that allow for incidental application to water (unless it is verboten in your state under stae rules).

Grassmechanic
02-05-2009, 11:23 AM
Ok Ric and Turf Hokie can you guys stop your pissing match and answer my original question? That is one thing I hate about this site, guys get off point and try to show how much they know about a topic and end up bloviating to no end. IT DRIVES ME UP THE WALL!@!! Both of you guys make good points and are correct in some aspect of your arguments and are probably very good at what you do. I was just wanting a simple question (I thought) answered about availability of Glyphomate. BTW I checked with JDL and they can only get it in 2.5 gal containers. That would last me 5 years.

Check into Rodeo. It is a glyphosate based herbicide that will do the job you want around a retention pond.

turf hokie
02-05-2009, 11:34 AM
Ric,

No problem, I had to comment on this. Correct info here is critical to all concerned.

I encourage all to constantly keep researching and learning. There is never a point in one's life they can say they know it all?

If you think you right? prove it with facts not hearsay....

That is fine, I thought that a quote from the label would not be hearsay.

ALL of you are quoting from the round-up label.
NOBODY has acknowledged that I am quoting from the prosecutor label.

And I have given up on the surfactant being added or not due to Ric just being an arse and trying to belittle me instead of answering a question.

I KNOW what I am reading off the label, it is in black and white.

But I am done as it looks like I am wrong because.....well.....I dont know why

Mr. Nice
02-05-2009, 12:14 PM
TurfH,

Im not trying to say you are wrong about what the label say's, just look deeper sometimes.

I understand why they don't have to label ALL the other ingredients in a product except the main AI, It just makes little sense to me at times..:confused:

nik
02-05-2009, 12:39 PM
It just makes little sense to me at times

Manufacturers fight tooth and nail to keep that info secret. The claim "recipe" for their products are confidential and that divulging that information would result in the loss of the advantage they have with a product in the marketplace.

The patent on glyphosate ran out and initially there was garbage product out there as no one was able to make a decent competitor product to the various Roundups.

Environ,ental groups have been after the EPA to get that info released for years. Mostly so they can attack the inert ingredients as being cancer causing or fish destroying or whatnot even though the active ingredient may be fairly benign.

Ric
02-05-2009, 01:47 PM
Manufacturers fight tooth and nail to keep that info secret. The claim "recipe" for their products are confidential and that divulging that information would result in the loss of the advantage they have with a product in the marketplace.

The patent on glyphosate ran out and initially there was garbage product out there as no one was able to make a decent competitor product to the various Roundups.

Environ,ental groups have been after the EPA to get that info released for years. Mostly so they can attack the inert ingredients as being cancer causing or fish destroying or whatnot even though the active ingredient may be fairly benign.

Nik

I will disagree with you about other not being able to match Monsanto's quality. While Coca Cola has a secret recipe, Glyphosate was patented by formulation that any chemist can duplicate. Once the patent expired many companies produced the same product. I posted the history of New Farms and their Chinese connection here and I am not going to retype it. I am sure Monsanto appreciates your loyalty