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HokieAg07
02-03-2009, 07:12 PM
Today's topic of discussion will be drip...Please bare with my longwindedness.

Issue #1

Client has good bit of drip in backyard planting beds. Damn dogs are pulling it all up and chewing on it. Granted the mulch cover hasnt been that spectacular I think the canines hear the water moving through the tube and decide to screw with it. I am trying to decide my next move; either way I am replacing all the tube as it is pretty badly damaged. Currently it isnt stapled down very well but I am not so sure that stapling it down very well is going to curtail the problem. Other option is to bury the driptube a few inches under the surface but that is very labor intensive and again not so sure the dogs would even leave that alone.

Any ideas?

Issue #2

Doing a design for a drip system at a residence. Usually we dont fool with residential stuff but both this case and the one mentioned above are exceptions to the rule. Anyways our landscape designer is renovating the entire property and the clients want a price to irrigate all the new plant material. I have no problem designing a conventional drip system and have already completed one for the project.

The problem lies with the fact that the clients have expressed interest in using rainwater harvesting to supply the drip system. I am eager to produce a design using this method however I dont know what resources or products I have at my disposal or what special factors need to be considered when designing this type of system.

Anyone care to give me some tips?

TRILAWNCARE
02-03-2009, 07:19 PM
Today's topic of discussion will be drip...Please bare with my longwindedness.

Issue #1

Client has good bit of drip in backyard planting beds. Damn dogs are pulling it all up and chewing on it. Granted the mulch cover hasnt been that spectacular I think the canines hear the water moving through the tube and decide to screw with it. I am trying to decide my next move; either way I am replacing all the tube as it is pretty badly damaged. Currently it isnt stapled down very well but I am not so sure that stapling it down very well is going to curtail the problem. Other option is to bury the driptube a few inches under the surface but that is very labor intensive and again not so sure the dogs would even leave that alone.

Any ideas?

Issue #2

Doing a design for a drip system at a residence. Usually we dont fool with residential stuff but both this case and the one mentioned above are exceptions to the rule. Anyways our landscape designer is renovating the entire property and the clients want a price to irrigate all the new plant material. I have no problem designing a conventional drip system and have already completed one for the project.

The problem lies with the fact that the clients have expressed interest in using rainwater harvesting to supply the drip system. I am eager to produce a design using this method however I dont know what resources or products I have at my disposal or what special factors need to be considered when designing this type of system.

Anyone care to give me some tips?

Issue #1 Getting rid of dogs an option.

Issue #2 Don't do it.

Wet_Boots
02-03-2009, 07:23 PM
Sell a nice deep mulch cover. payup

DanaMac
02-03-2009, 07:29 PM
Dogs will dig up anything. At my last house my dog dug the lateral lines and heads. unless the dogs are gone drip will always be a problem unless it's 12" deep. Not all dogs do it, but your customer's apparently do. Some dogs grow out of it after 2-4 years. Mine stopped chewing after 3 years - not tobacco but everything else :)

And whatever Mike suggests, do the opposite.............

HokieAg07
02-03-2009, 07:34 PM
Dogs will dig up anything. At my last house my dog dug the lateral lines and heads. unless the dogs are gone drip will always be a problem unless it's 12" deep. Not all dogs do it, but your customer's apparently do. Some dogs grow out of it after 2-4 years. Mine stopped chewing after 3 years - not tobacco but everything else :)

And whatever Mike suggests, do the opposite.............


Yeah they like to dig at the pvc as well....

Mike Leary
02-03-2009, 07:34 PM
And whatever Mike suggests, do the opposite.............

You mean, "head towards the dark"?

DanaMac
02-03-2009, 07:35 PM
Yeah they like to dig at the pvc as well....

My dog used to chew up my deck and stairs in the back yard. I had a lot to replace before we sold it.

bobw
02-03-2009, 07:49 PM
#1 - Welcome to the world of drip irrigation.

#2 - Very simple, you just have to filter and pressurize the water, and then have some sort of automatic valve that will flip to municipal supply whenever the rain catchment system is empty, along with appropriate back flow contamination prevention. System should pay for itself in 300 years or so.

ARGOS
02-03-2009, 07:50 PM
It seems to me that no one around here never takes the time to properly staple down drip. Drip has nothing to contain the thrust and should be stapled down solidly all the way to the emitters. I use jute staples for 700 poly and down. I don't think it will completely stop the dogs, but it would slow them down.

Mike Leary
02-03-2009, 07:51 PM
System should pay for itself in 300 years or so.

Well said......:laugh::laugh::laugh:

DanaMac
02-03-2009, 07:52 PM
Or go galvanized

HokieAg07
02-03-2009, 07:52 PM
#1 - Welcome to the world of drip irrigation.

#2 - Very simple, you just have to filter and pressurize the water, and then have some sort of automatic valve that will flip to municipal supply whenever the rain catchment system is empty, along with appropriate back flow contamination prevention. System should pay for itself in 300 years or so.

Thats what I was thinking as well. Given the small scale nature of this project, I dont think it would be very cost effective to have a rain harvesting system when the municipal water use will be very little anyways. I do think its a cool idea and would love to learn more about it though.

Mike Leary
02-03-2009, 08:21 PM
Drip bites; get over it you guys. It was made for straight row crops; the beancounters convinced you all this was a cheap, efficient way of laying water down. It has not worked with a damn in my experience because the emitters are too far spaced to provide proper application in horticultural applications. You'll all keep using it; and plants will die. 'Nuff said.

ARGOS
02-03-2009, 08:27 PM
But where would we use our drip shrubblers?

Mike Leary
02-03-2009, 08:35 PM
But where would we use our drip shrubblers?

Sch 80 risers with sch 40 couplers. :hammerhead:

Wet_Boots
02-03-2009, 08:40 PM
Minus the dogs, and with proper usage, and mulch cover, drip can work. I'd still rather spray, given enough water, and room to work.

DanaMac
02-03-2009, 08:41 PM
Drip bites; get over it you guys. It was made for straight row crops; the beancounters convinced you all this was a cheap, efficient way of laying water down. It has not worked with a damn in my experience because the emitters are too far spaced to provide proper application in horticultural applications. You'll all keep using it; and plants will die. 'Nuff said.

OK Mr Smarty pants. What would you install along the side of a house in the 3' border where there are 4 shrubs along the house spaced 5'-10' apart? Separate sprinkler heads for each shrub? 1/2" drip pipe around the house with 2-3 emitters around the base of the shrub works well.

Stuttering Stan
02-03-2009, 08:42 PM
#1- Electric fence? Customers may not want to shock their dogs, but worth consideration.

#2- With the lack of rain in our area, rainwater is pretty much nonexistent. Cost vs. benefit analysis= ?

DanaMac
02-03-2009, 08:44 PM
So it's better to spray an area with shrubs and flowers with 2"-4" of mulch or rocks that the water has to filter through first? Or get soaked up by the mulch in areas where there are no plantings? You might have plenty of water in WA. We get about 12" of moisture all year and California, Kansas, and Nebraska take enough of it. We need to use water wisely.

HokieAg07
02-03-2009, 08:54 PM
#1- Electric fence? Customers may not want to shock their dogs, but worth consideration.

#2- With the lack of rain in our area, rainwater is pretty much nonexistent. Cost vs. benefit analysis= ?


#1 - Without revealing who client is, doesnt really matter what it takes to keep the stuff irrigated as it is bascially done for nothing. If I need to convert to conventional spray heads so be it.

#2 - Yeah the cost analysis was done and in the back of my mind before I even came on here. I highly doubt it will be financially feasible but it sure would be cool which is why I wanted some info.

ARGOS
02-03-2009, 08:55 PM
Drip bites; get over it you guys. It was made for straight row crops; the beancounters convinced you all this was a cheap, efficient way of laying water down. It has not worked with a damn in my experience because the emitters are too far spaced to provide proper application in horticultural applications. You'll all keep using it; and plants will die. 'Nuff said.

In general I agree that drip stinks, but not for all the same reasons. The biggest issue is that 90% of it is not installed correctly. HO's don't know how pressure compensation, water pressure, and water volume play a part in drip. They go into their local home depot and start buying parts and slap them together haphazardly. "I can do my whole property on one zone at different elevations." Drip also causes saline build up at the point of emitters, especially because they aren't moved. I read an article about redwoods planted in landscapes are distressed in 5 to 6 years because of saline concentrates directly located below unmoved emitters.

BUT in my area drip is part of the irrigation business like it or not. In spring I get a lot of service calls from people that had their drip installed by a LCO and it is failing after being installed for a few years. Drip is planned obsolescence that requires yearly maintenance, especially because HO and some contractors by the crap parts.

Stuttering Stan
02-03-2009, 08:55 PM
So it's better to spray an area with shrubs and flowers with 2"-4" of mulch or rocks that the water has to filter through first? Or get soaked up by the mulch in areas where there are no plantings? We need to use water wisely.

Good point. Sorry ML

Mike Leary
02-03-2009, 09:21 PM
Good point. Sorry ML

Not really, if the LA/"designers" screwed up the layout, what are we supposed to do? You guys deal with h/os, that's your problem.

DanaMac
02-03-2009, 09:52 PM
Not really, if the LA/"designers" screwed up the layout, what are we supposed to do? You guys deal with h/os, that's your problem.

I forgot, it's Mike's way or no way. "Not my problem."

DanaMac
02-03-2009, 10:01 PM
The problem lies with the fact that the clients have expressed interest in using rainwater harvesting to supply the drip system. I am eager to produce a design using this method however I dont know what resources or products I have at my disposal or what special factors need to be considered when designing this type of system.

Anyone care to give me some tips?

Check you local rain water regulations

Rain water article (http://www.gazette.com/articles/tough_47395___article.html/bill_denver.html)

Kiril
02-04-2009, 12:20 AM
Drip bites; get over it you guys. It was made for straight row crops; the beancounters convinced you all this was a cheap, efficient way of laying water down. It has not worked with a damn in my experience because the emitters are too far spaced to provide proper application in horticultural applications. You'll all keep using it; and plants will die. 'Nuff said.

Silly, silly man ..... :hammerhead:

Use the right dripline for the application and install it properly.

Issue #1: Bury the line.

Issue #2: What Bob said.

mitchgo
02-04-2009, 01:11 AM
This is what I would say to the client. hah.

"As an irrigator, I can't prevent your dog from chewing things up. As a dog owner, I can prevent my dog from chewing on things. So train your f-in dog!"

well, something along that.

I've seen people get rid of their dogs because they kept destroying the sprinklers.
For the most part the drip I have seen in areas with bad dogs the homeowner knows there is no hope.

Waterit
02-04-2009, 02:39 AM
You could always just plant rocks.

Kiril
02-04-2009, 02:57 AM
You could always just plant rocks.

See, you are catching on .... :clapping:

EagleLandscape
02-04-2009, 08:23 AM
Toro makes a sub surface dripline with a built in herbicide to prevent root intrusion if that might be a problem. It's connectors are alot easier to work with than netafim, thats for sure.

Not sure on the price, but the one time I used it, it was pretty nice.


Rain water reclamation is a great idea, but the setup is very expensive. Can you sell them on some drought tolerant plants? If they are truly wanting to "GO GREEN", they will remove their high water usage plants, and almost throw out the irrigation all together.

Or, have them do drip with low water usage plants. Beat these words into them, SUSTAINABLE, SUSTAINABLE, SUSTAINABLE.

EagleLandscape
02-04-2009, 08:26 AM
This is what I would say to the client. hah.

"As an irrigator, I can't prevent your dog from chewing things up. As a dog owner, I can prevent my dog from chewing on things. So train your f-in dog!"

well, something along that.

I've seen people get rid of their dogs because they kept destroying the sprinklers.
For the most part the drip I have seen in areas with bad dogs the homeowner knows there is no hope.

fertigation with "bitter apple (for the dogs)"?

DanaMac
02-04-2009, 09:21 AM
fertigation with "bitter apple (for the dogs)"?

Bitter apple doesn't deter my dogs. Try tobasco!

Waterit
02-04-2009, 09:38 AM
Bitter apple doesn't deter my dogs. Try tobasco!

Once had a lab that loved chirizo...

DanaMac
02-04-2009, 09:43 AM
Once had a lab that loved chirizo...

My golden/lab mix ate an entire plate of Jimmy Deans maple sausage once. Also some grilled elk back strap.

Dogs will do these things. Get rid of the drip until they stop. Tell the customer to water by hand until then.

AI Inc
02-04-2009, 09:47 AM
My golden/lab mix ate an entire plate of Jimmy Deans maple sausage once. Also some grilled elk back strap.

Dogs will do these things. Get rid of the drip until they stop. Tell the customer to water by hand until then.

Or replace the drip with a couple of rotors or sprayers. Around here drip is usualy used for new plantings. Most of the time it can be shut off after 2 yrs.

Kiril
02-04-2009, 10:49 AM
Toro makes a sub surface dripline with a built in herbicide to prevent root intrusion if that might be a problem. It's connectors are alot easier to work with than netafim, thats for sure.

Not sure on the price, but the one time I used it, it was pretty nice.


Rain water reclamation is a great idea, but the setup is very expensive. Can you sell them on some drought tolerant plants? If they are truly wanting to "GO GREEN", they will remove their high water usage plants, and almost throw out the irrigation all together.

Or, have them do drip with low water usage plants. Beat these words into them, SUSTAINABLE, SUSTAINABLE, SUSTAINABLE.

Nice to see at least 1 person listens to me. :clapping:

Waterit
02-04-2009, 10:58 AM
Nice to see at least 1 person listens to me. :clapping:

You could always just plant rocks.

Maybe two...

Kiril
02-04-2009, 11:15 AM
Maybe two...

Wiseass remarks inspired by Boots doesn't count :laugh:

EagleLandscape
02-04-2009, 04:22 PM
Kiril, I agree with you most the time. My nose just isn't turned up when I type though. :)

Wet_Boots
02-04-2009, 04:29 PM
Kiril, I agree with you most the time. My nose just isn't turned up when I type though. :)He has a right to be smug - he's up for a Grammy this year

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7827/magnetboyalbumcv3.jpg

Mike Leary
02-04-2009, 04:44 PM
He has a right to be smug - he's up for a Grammy this year

Which one is Kiril? :dizzy:

FYS777
02-04-2009, 07:20 PM
Which one is Kiril? :dizzy:

I think I was miss guided, I was told by Kiril that I should go to the irrigation forums to get Information from the pro's but I think most of the forums here are for pro chit- chatters I learned a lot on this one, wow my brains cells are swelling, och och ug,:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::dizzy::dizzy:

TRILAWNCARE
02-04-2009, 07:34 PM
I think I was miss guided, I was told by Kiril that I should go to the irrigation forums to get Information from the pro's but I think most of the forums here are for pro chit- chatters I learned a lot on this one, wow my brains cells are swelling, och och ug,:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::dizzy::dizzy:

Another happy customer of the irrigation forum.....:clapping::clapping:

What's that make now.... 16,963 If my calculations are right.

Mike Leary
02-04-2009, 07:36 PM
I think I was miss guided, I was told by Kiril that I should go to the irrigation forums to get Information from the pro's

Therin was your first mistake, trusting someone with a handle like "Kiril".

FYS777
02-04-2009, 07:40 PM
You guys are to good, ah, to bad can't make my mind up.

Mike Leary
02-04-2009, 07:43 PM
You guys are to good, ah, to bad can't make my mind up.

Stick with us, you'll learn something, just not sure what. :dizzy:

FYS777
02-04-2009, 07:45 PM
that s what I'm afraid of,

Wet_Boots
02-04-2009, 07:47 PM
You guys are to good, ah, to bad can't make my mind up.What mind?

Kiril
02-04-2009, 08:01 PM
Stick with us, you'll learn something, just not sure what. :dizzy:

Don't listen to Mike or Boots. They are old and in the way.

CAPT Stream Rotar
02-04-2009, 08:07 PM
Don't listen to Mike or Boots. They are old and in the way.



Keep a filter and reducer on the drip for the dirty water applications.

also keep those dogs fed and healthy..make sure you throw the ball for them cause they are a service tech's dream!

FYS777
02-04-2009, 08:10 PM
Don't listen to Mike or Boots. They are old and in the way.

I'll try not to, I'm gettin older to, I almost broke out of those old ways till I had couple words with them,:hammerhead:

EagleLandscape
02-04-2009, 08:29 PM
Don't let Kiril see all that grass in your avatar. Ummm mum mum mum mum, I'm telllllllling!

Waterit
02-04-2009, 11:52 PM
Don't let Kiril see all that grass in your avatar. Ummm mum mum mum mum, I'm telllllllling!

Surprised he even gave the guy the time of day - all that turf, no rocks or plastic anywhere...

Shawn Perkins
02-05-2009, 12:48 AM
[QUOTE=jwingfield2k;2743591]Toro makes a sub surface dripline with a built in herbicide to prevent root intrusion if that might be a problem.

Now the system is a high health risk and you have to change the backflow to a RP Thumbs Up

ARGOS
02-05-2009, 12:56 AM
[QUOTE=jwingfield2k;2743591]Toro makes a sub surface dripline with a built in herbicide to prevent root intrusion if that might be a problem.

Now the system is a high health risk and you have to change the backflow to a RP Thumbs Up


Dude...everyone was just getting started. Then you have to ruin everything and bring up an RP.

Kiril
02-05-2009, 01:20 AM
Surprised he even gave the guy the time of day - all that turf, no rocks or plastic anywhere...

ROFL ... jab all you want ... I can take it. :laugh:

Waterit
02-05-2009, 02:52 AM
ROFL ... jab all you want ... I can take it. :laugh:

After all the FL attacks, I figure you've earned a few pokes :)

Kiril
02-05-2009, 10:32 AM
After all the FL attacks, I figure you've earned a few pokes :)

Well at least I lived there for 5 years ... so I figure a few snide comments on FL irrigation is allowed. ;)

ARGOS
02-05-2009, 11:51 AM
Well at least I lived there for 5 years ... so I figure a few snide comments on FL irrigation is allowed. ;)

Hey Kiril is it raining down there yet?

Mike Leary
02-05-2009, 11:58 AM
Hey Kiril is it raining down there yet?

Is that the same storm that's coming our way?

ARGOS
02-05-2009, 12:02 PM
This is what I'm looking at...looks nasty. (http://radar.weather.gov/ridge/radar.php?rid=mux&product=N0R&overlay=11101111&loop=no)

I am east of Sonora so I have a little time. Right now I have my own junior putting tools away and covering equipment.

Wet_Boots
02-05-2009, 12:07 PM
I thought your state was so dry it would accept water even if it fell in blocks of ice....

Mike Leary
02-05-2009, 12:08 PM
I just looked at the NWS loop; indeed,looks like you get some water.

ARGOS
02-05-2009, 12:12 PM
I am sure glad you guys showed me that site. I know I should have known about it years ago, but you learn something new everyday. I am still figuring tracking the time of the storm.

The bonus today was that I had a guy call in wanting to take care of a few loose projects and I checked that radar and realized he would get to the job just in time to get really wet. Saved some cashola.

ARGOS
02-05-2009, 12:14 PM
I thought your state was so dry it would accept water even if it fell in blocks of ice....

I'm sure Kiril has a link that has historical data for rainfall in our area...hint hint.

Mike Leary
02-05-2009, 12:41 PM
[QUOTE=ARGOS;2746701]I am sure glad you guys showed me that site. I know I should have known about it years ago, but you learn something new everyday.

Send me a check; I'll send half to Kiril. :rolleyes:

Wet_Boots
02-05-2009, 12:47 PM
[QUOTE=ARGOS;2746701]I am sure glad you guys showed me that site. I know I should have known about it years ago, but you learn something new everyday.

Send me a check; I'll send half to Kiril. :rolleyes:He'll only spend it on rocks.

Kiril
02-05-2009, 01:49 PM
I'm sure Kiril has a link that has historical data for rainfall in our area...hint hint.

Actually, yes I do.

BTW, that rain moved through here pretty quick, you should probably be seeing it about now.

ARGOS
02-05-2009, 10:08 PM
Actually, yes I do.

Kick down a link or something.

Kiril
02-05-2009, 10:12 PM
Kick down a link or something.

http://wwwcimis.water.ca.gov/cimis/data.jsp

ARGOS
02-05-2009, 10:31 PM
Thanks Kiril, that looks like what I was after. Too bad it's not specifically San Luis and above.

ARGOS
02-05-2009, 10:34 PM
WHAT!!!! Tuolumne county isn't on the sample daily report!!!! WTF?

I'm not finding it on any of the reports! Seriously, our rain fall and snow pack affect the state significantly (Meaning this county IS important for irrigation).

OMG Kern county is on the list...jeezzzz.

Kiril
02-05-2009, 10:43 PM
WHAT!!!! Tuolumne county isn't on the sample daily report!!!! WTF?

I'm not finding it on any of the reports! Seriously, our rain fall and snow pack affect the state significantly (Meaning this county IS important for irrigation).

:laugh: Well it is primarily for Agriculture .... not much Ag in your area I suspect.

How about stations in Stanislaus County?

I can pull a report for you if you don't want to register.

ARGOS
02-05-2009, 10:54 PM
:laugh: Well it is primarily for Agriculture .... not much Ag in your area I suspect.

How about stations in Stanislaus County?

I can pull a report for you if you don't want to register.

I MIGHT register...without Tuolumne.:cry: I did run a report for El Dorado and it was really informative.

"The California Irrigation Management Information System (CIMIS) is a program in the Office of Water Use Efficiency (OWUE), California Department of Water Resources (DWR) that manages a network of over 120 automated weather stations in the state of California. CIMIS was developed in 1982 by the California Department of Water Resource and the University of California at Davis to assist California’s irrigators manage their water resources efficiently. Efficient use of water resources benefits Californians by saving water, energy, and money."

It would still seem that Tuolumne county rain fall would influence the "water resources" of California. I assume these are state owned stations? BTW Shasta has a station.

Thanks for the link. I know I am ranting, but looks like some great data. Didn't want to seem unappreciative.

Kiril
02-05-2009, 11:00 PM
Yea .. the distribution is weird. Most of the stations are situated in the valleys, with a few outliers. I suspect those would be more for research than anything.

Now if you want river data, that is a different "boat". ;)

http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ca/nwis/rt

ARGOS
02-05-2009, 11:06 PM
Yea .. the distribution is weird. Most of the stations are situated in the valleys, with a few outliers. I suspect those would be more for research than anything.

I know I already insinuated this, but it would seem that the valley would want to know precipitation rates in the sierras. Sure ET rates aren't so crucial (for the valley to know our ET rates that is, I still would like them).

Kiril
02-05-2009, 11:15 PM
I know I already insinuated this, but it would seem that the valley would want to know precipitation rates in the sierras. Sure ET rates aren't so crucial (for the valley to know our ET rates that is, I still would like them).

With respect to irrigation scheduling in the valley it doesn't matter what happens in the Sierras.

Speaking of the Sierras, I saw a news report that said water allocations from the state this year for agriculture will only be at 15% of normal. Ya think that is going to cause some problems heh?

ARGOS
02-05-2009, 11:25 PM
I saw a news report that said water allocations from the state this year for agriculture will only be at 15% of normal. Ya think that is going to cause some problems heh?

Nothing like a dead of summer heat wave to effect your crop. How can someone irrigate at 15%?

Kiril
02-06-2009, 12:39 AM
Nothing like a dead of summer heat wave to effect your crop. How can someone irrigate at 15%?

That is what alot of farmers are wondering.

ARGOS
02-06-2009, 10:25 AM
Looks like its a rain day here. It's really coming down. (http://radar.weather.gov/ridge/radar.php?rid=mux&product=N0R&overlay=11101111&loop=no)

Mike Leary
02-06-2009, 11:09 AM
[QUOTE=ARGOS;2749476]Looks like its a rain day here.

Sunny here in Phoenix, we need some of that rain!