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DVS Hardscaper
02-08-2009, 04:10 PM
I have a few pet peeves from this line of work.

And one of my favorite is when I go on a sales presentation and a prosepctive client goes over all the details of their project and they tell me "and when we bury this downspout we'll need a pop-up emitter at the end of the pipe". And I respond "oh, why do you want a pop-up?" They respond "because they guy that was here 2 days ago said we need one"!! And this is when I need to pause my presentation and spend 15 minutes going over my thoughts on pop ups!

(Let me back up here. For the disclaimer, we are in MD. We have winter. We have snow. We have ice. We have frozen ground. )

Pop-ups - the quick, easy solution for those that DON'T know how handle a drainage issue!

Pop-ups - an inexpensive cost alternative to appease the customer so they think you have a grasp on how to handle their drainage issue, without having to resort to more costy measures to properly contend with the issue!


Folks -

I've been waiting for an opportunity to snap a photo of the ground covered in ice to convince prospective clients that pop ups and NOT what they need. Here is a picture I shot the other week to include in my arsenol of photograghs. In the pic, you can tell there is ice ontop of the ground, right? But really, it was a warm day out, snow was melting off the roofs.

Folks, tell me how on earth a pop up emitter is supposed to function WHEN IT'S BURRIED BELOW A SOLID SHEET OF ICE!!


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y212/ScapeItWS6360CJ7/IMG_0633.jpg




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STL Ponds and Waterfalls
02-08-2009, 04:47 PM
We use them when the customer won't spend the extra coin to trench the extra length to daylight the pipe. You brought up a good point for me to reconsider and to show the customer what can happen with freeze areas.

Andrew how do you end your pipe runs?

mrusk
02-08-2009, 05:31 PM
I don't even know what a pop up thing a mabob is.

99% of the time we pipe the downspouts/and any other drains to day light. ONE time that was not possible and we dug a big hole, ligned it with fabric and filled it clean stone.

EagleLandscape
02-08-2009, 05:59 PM
If there is not an area to daylight the drain to the face of a wall, or something vertical for that matter, you will end up using an NDS popup drain, unless you can dump into an existing drain line that might feed to the city sewer. We do all the time in TEXAS, but obviously we don't have the freeze snow issue.

I could see a big problem if the roof melts ice, gutters fill with water, but the popup is frozen shut, then the downspouts pop off the house due to weight... now that would be an issue not to use a popup drain.

http://www.drillspot.com/pimages/2498/249890_300.jpg

DVS Hardscaper
02-08-2009, 06:09 PM
Andrew how do you end your pipe runs?


We simply daylight the pipe(s) and allow the water to exit and spill into the lawn. Many clients start with saying they don't want the pipe in the yard because of unsightyness or trip hazards. Well, the water valve in the front lawn and the sewer clean out in the front lawn is a trip hazard! As far as asthetics - do you want a pretty yard or do you want to get the water off your roof and away from your foundation?

One thing I think we need to start doing is placing grates on the exit end of the pipe as we recently had a job where a rodent make a home in the pipe!


We have been doin hardscapes for almost 13 years (for those that forgot!) and to this day we have NOT installed a single pop up emitter.



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zedosix
02-08-2009, 11:26 PM
We use them quite often and what I tell the client is come early march when the snow is melting and the ground is frozen I tell them to disconnect at the downspout. The ground is frozen anyway so having it drain to daylight isn't going to do it much good in the winter anyway. They are a clean solution to spring summer and autumn drainage woes.

CertPro
02-08-2009, 11:57 PM
I use them all the time without issue. As with anything there is a certain level of maintenance that one must perform. Believe it or not, there are some properties that will not allow a pipe to be daylighted and in those cases, pop-ups work quite well.

DVS Hardscaper
02-09-2009, 07:34 AM
I use them all the time without issue. As with anything there is a certain level of maintenance that one must perform. Believe it or not, there are some properties that will not allow a pipe to be daylighted and in those cases, pop-ups work quite well.


:) Now we're gettin the responses I was anticipating!!! :)

You mean after your job is all said and done there is WORK that someone is supposed to remember to do?? Your jobs come with home work assignments?

CertPro, could you please share with us the "maintenance" that must be performed. And who is responsible for performing this "maintenance"?

Might this "maintenance" share similar tasks with home owners watering their new plants? We all know how well that goes!

I certainly hope you're not saying the client whom is working 60 to 70 hours a week and has their hands full with taking his/her 3 kids to their sporting events in the evenings and on weekends, and is helping the kids with their homework is supposed to take care of this "maintenance".

Or I certainly hope you're not going to say the widowed, 64 year old retired female school teacher had you build a 400 SF patio is supposed to go out on that ice and chissel it away from the pop up?

Please tell me I'm over reacting so my blood pressure can stop boiling!!

mrusk
02-09-2009, 10:15 AM
Certpro why dont just create a stone pit? Hell, you can fill the pit with paver scraps and it will still work.

LB1234
02-09-2009, 12:33 PM
As far as the pop-up emitter not "popping" there really is no solution besides not using one at all or making sure to get it "popped" yourself. And yes, I'd rather daylight a pipe than use a pop-up...its just easier. However, a pop-up is an easier solution than approval for a drainage pipe. Here in Jersey I have to jump through hoops to get approval. It just isn't worth it. Between the engineers and the township approvals its a pain in the ass. Drawings, roof footage calculations, pit sizes, approved stone...the back and forth to the township..argghhhh. It sucks! So, call me lazy, say I'm not doing the job right, saving on the job cost, say whatever you want...placing a pop-up (again if can't daylight) is simply easier.

However, at a minimum at least make sure they are installed correctly. When/if we use the pop-up emitters we make sure to drill a hole (if one isn't already present) on the 90 elbow to the pop-up. At the spot that the pop-up emitter is located we auger a 36" wide by about a 36" deep hole (below the actual elbow). That gets backfilled with filter fabric and 3/4" clean stone. That way any excess water in the pipe is able to "trickle" out of the pipe. That solves the "freezing in the pipe" issue. Some don't do this and you can tell b/c there is water visable in the pipe when you take off the pop-up. As a result the pipe is usally sticking above the ground were the mower blades nail it.

Not that I have installed hundreds of these pop-ups but of the few I've used there hasn't been any major problem with the winter snow. The only time it actually is a problem is if we get a terrential rain with more than a few inches of snow/ice already on the ground. If it is just melting snow off the roof the hole in the bottom of the elbow is enough to accept the trickle from the roof.

Fire Away DVS, I enjoy your responses and your topics.:waving:

LB1234
02-09-2009, 12:55 PM
One thing I think we need to start doing is placing grates on the exit end of the pipe as we recently had a job where a rodent make a home in the pipe!


Placing the grate on the end will eventually make it clog (in our experience at least). Unless you want to give the homeowner a maintenance task...which it sounds like you don't. We tried it on one job and it turned into a big mess. Every few weeks in the fall the homeowner wound up having to go out to the daylighted pipe and pull the grate off, clean it, and reinstall it. Was really a nightmare. By leaving the grate off it allowed the debris to exit the pipe.

We even installed drain basins at certain intervals to help collect the debris. It does help, but the homeowner has to remember to pull the grate off and clean the bottom of the basin out. But that is also maintenance. But I'm not sure how to get around that part...maybe its an upsell to the maintenance side of by business.

CertPro
02-09-2009, 04:35 PM
With any new install you have maintenance issues. Whether those issues be with cleaning or sealing the hardscape, maintenance on the joint sand, changing out blown bulbs, cleaning/sealing your new granite countertops, polishing up your new outdoor grill, or making sure your pop up does not become iced/covered over. It's all part of the deal and as long as you explain that to super dad or senora widow you should be covered. it takes all of 2 minutes to check/clear the pop up. Far less time than shoveling your walks or packing your kids up in a car. And like anything else, if you want your project to flourish do the maintenance. Besides, your issue comes to light 2-3 months of the year. The rest of the year pop-ups are more aesthetically pleasing and work just as well as a daylighted pipe sans rodents. Educate your customer and ye shall be set free.

DVS Hardscaper
02-09-2009, 05:59 PM
I am not going to tell people how to run their business. But I will state my opinions!!


Life is full of responsibilities.

Change the filter furnace.

Clean the dust out of the air intake from the fridgerator.

Go to the dentist.

Replace the water hoses on the washer machine so they don't crack and burst while you're at the beack on vacation.

Hardscape Projects are NOT cheap. A 200 SF job costs more than a 1500 SF job.

Again, 13 years here without ever installing a pop up!

There is no excuse to add additional maintenance responsibility to your client's life. NO EXCUSE. It's as pathetic as Direct TV installing a satellite dish out of reach on a roof top or on a chimeny without providing a deicer!

For the record, I did not state we will never install a pop up. As last year I did have one job I priced where a pop up was the ONLY option. Fortunately, we did not get the job :)

Folks, your client may be 35 years old and in great shape today. But if your hardscape is properly constructed.......that patio is going to last forever. 12 years later, will you client still be able to get out and tend to the freakin emitter in the snow?

We have a client that does consulting in Europe. He and his wife just returned to MD after being in Europe for 5 weeks. Who would have thawed their emitters on the home while they were away?

What if they go on vacation?

What if they are in the hospital??

CertPro, i'm sorry man, but I completely disagree with you last post. MAny thing in life require maintenance. But man, most things you can plan for. Ok, so you need your chimney cleaned? You simply call the chimney cleaner and he/she will schedule a time. Ok, so you want your pavers sealed?? No problem, it won't matter if they're sealed tomorrow or 47 days later. Your home's air conditioner needs routine service? Again, no sweat (no pun intended!), if it's only maintenance it doesn'tmatter if the tech comes out 3 days or 16 days later.

But see, CertPro - the weather / water drainage isn't something you can plan for, as you can with most of life's maintenance responsibilities. To think it's good business to justify sending a home owner out to thaw your emitters, when you, the competent contractor could have provided better expertise is deplorable :)

Something else -

Q: When does snow melt?
A: During the day, usually about an hr after the sun comes up

Q: Where are most home owners during the day?
A: At work

Q: What does a client do after they arrive home in the at 6 pm on a dark winter evening?
A: They check their mail and they go straight from the car and inside their house and turn on the news.

They don't look at their drains! they don't look at their down spouts! They're never going to notice the ice hanging over the fronts on their gutters! THEY'RE NOT!! THEY'RE NOT!! THEY'RE NOT!!

Ya know, I always say "we done this and we done that for 10 yrs and never had a problem". Ok, well how do I know that maybe there is a problem or 2 or 3 out there? There very well could be some problems with our work. And it could very well be that the client simply isn't aware that there is a problem. Thus it hasn't been brought to my attention!

Folks, again, do things how you see fit. But use a little common sense. People's life's change. Don't let the work you do add additional BURDEN or stress to their life.





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CertPro
02-09-2009, 11:44 PM
If they want zero maintenance, install a blowout above grade. You can cover it wit a rubber boot that will blow off and allow water to escape if the emitter is unable to pop-up for any reason. We've done that a few times.

No big deal.

Grassmechanic
02-10-2009, 10:10 AM
However, at a minimum at least make sure they are installed correctly. When/if we use the pop-up emitters we make sure to drill a hole (if one isn't already present) on the 90 elbow to the pop-up. At the spot that the pop-up emitter is located we auger a 36" wide by about a 36" deep hole (below the actual elbow). That gets backfilled with filter fabric and 3/4" clean stone. That way any excess water in the pipe is able to "trickle" out of the pipe. :

This is the correct way, especially in areas that have frost in the ground. I have to go deeper than 36" though. Most subdivisions around here require pop-ups. They won't let you put downspouts in the storm sewer.

LB1234
02-10-2009, 11:11 AM
This is the correct way, especially in areas that have frost in the ground. I have to go deeper than 36" though. Most subdivisions around here require pop-ups. They won't let you put downspouts in the storm sewer.


I know, we even need permits to daylight pipes through the curbing. That's a big no-no without permits. I haven't done it yet...but...I probablly could avoid the permit by placing the pop-up right before the curbing...might be a pain to get the stone next to the curbing though...hummnnnn.


I guess one could argue that township plow trucks pushing snow to the curb blocks a daylighted pipe as much as a pop-up would with a few inches of snow on top of it.

AztlanLC
02-10-2009, 10:13 PM
LB is right popups if installed correctly serve the purpose and look better just make sure you do it right, call NDS they will provide you with detail specifications to install depending on specific areas.

tatmkr
02-12-2009, 08:57 AM
Take a look at the picture and a little visualization will tell you how much water would have to back up before it discharges. This freezes into a soid chunk of ice that doesn't melt before the roof snow does. 10 years and I have never used one of these worthless things.

The other problem that I have is that people create standing water with these all to often. Just connect the conductor lin to a french drain and get rid of the darn water.

LB1234
02-12-2009, 09:50 AM
Just connect the conductor lin to a french drain and get rid of the darn water.


Why in the world would you dump a drain line into a french drain? You already have the water in the pipe, there is no need to "dump it" into a french drain. Makes absolutely no sense to me. What am I missing here:confused:

DVS Hardscaper
02-12-2009, 09:50 AM
Take a look at the picture and a little visualization will tell you how much water would have to back up before it discharges. This freezes into a soid chunk of ice that doesn't melt before the roof snow does. 10 years and I have never used one of these worthless things.

The other problem that I have is that people create standing water with these all to often. Just connect the conductor lin to a french drain and get rid of the darn water.



THANK YOU tatmkr!

A few weeks ago oI had to go to a client's home in the snow/ice to pick up a check that he had left on the back door. There is an iron gate with a latch that you must pass through to get into the backyard. Well....water got inside the latch and froze, therefore I could not unlatch the gate. Had to jump the fence.

It's so simple. If a frickin latch so many feet ABOVE grade was frozen shut, then imagine something set into the ground, buried under snow or a layer of ice. See, I'm a problem solver. I'll go through all the scenerios, all the what if's....until lI come up with a solution that I'm comfortable with. Put a boot over the pop up?? Are you serious! How will that prevent a chunk of ice from forming inside the pipe as TAT had mentioned? Water supply lines running from a well to the house are buried below frost line for a reason! What happens when the mowing company comes in and snips it with the string trimmer a little tiny bit each week?

Folks located in areas where there is this thingie called "winter", that are installing pop-ups instead doing drywells are focused on not loosing a sale. This is where educating your client comes into play. This is where you have to make them aware that yes a properly installed drywell is costly, and you'll also have to explain all the drawbacks of a pop-up.

I was at a seminar a few weeks ago. the speaker said "guys will spend 40 grand on a new truck, but they won't spend $500 on a tool that will increase their production! Ok, well guys will create beautiful hardscapes, perfect mitering of pavers, fancy circles tieing walks into patios, yadda, yadda, yadda - yet they won't set billable time and effort to properly address drainage issues!!!

n2h20
02-12-2009, 12:23 PM
When/if we use the pop-up emitters we make sure to drill a hole (if one isn't already present) on the 90 elbow to the pop-up. At the spot that the pop-up emitter is located we auger a 36" wide by about a 36" deep hole (below the actual elbow). That gets backfilled with filter fabric and 3/4" clean stone. That way any excess water in the pipe is able to "trickle" out of the pipe.




Good Idea


I was thinking about the water in the pipe before you wrote this,,This is also a problem in spring, summer, fall. If you have that elbow on there and the pop up that is a large amount of water still in the pipe. Thats a great breading ground for mosquito's. So draining the water out, not only helps with your freezing issue but will also help with the mosquito control.
that amount of water can breed hundreds if not thousands of mosquito's a week.

AztlanLC
02-12-2009, 01:23 PM
Sorry but I have to say that we have being using this pop ups for the las couple years and if installed correctly you'll have no problem or even less than just daylighting the pipe, besides it looks better a flow-well would be my best suggestion for gutter tough.
Just because you oppose to something you're not familiar with that doesn't mean it doesn't work and I use the phrase not familiar cause some of you guys have claimed you have never installed one.

PSUturf
02-13-2009, 05:58 PM
I totally agree with DVS, pop ups are junk. If I can't day light a drain pipe I put a tee fitting on the end of the line. The bottom of the tee dumps into a french drain. A pipe from the top of the tee goes to the lawn and is capped with a grate that is flush with the soil surface. If rainfall is so heavy that it overwhelms the french drain the excess will flow out through the grate and into the lawn.

If there are trees in the area there must be a screen between the gutter downspout and the drain pipe. Having the down spout spill onto a catch basin grate will do the trick.

The majority of pop ups that I have seen are broken because they stuck in the up position and were run over by a mower. Or they cracked due to frozen water that couldn't drain from the pipe.

PS For all those who are too lazy to dig a deep enough trench, a drain pipe with only one inch of soil on top is almost guaranteed to frost heave out of the ground.

zedosix
02-13-2009, 06:46 PM
Best place for the water to run is on top of the ground. Only since we have been building patios, and retaining walls are there needs for french drains and popups. If it were up to me I would just dig to the footing and tie in to the main line around the home. In our area this goes against by-law rules. So we use the stupid popups, and since all our ground is clay, it won't matter how deep you dig, it just fills up with water anyway and backs up. So in our case the pop ups work best because it just re-routes the water a bit further away from the house and past all the hardscaping we just installed. Yes they are a pain because a lawn mower has the tendency to suck up the valve.

wurkn with amish
02-14-2009, 12:59 PM
Just tie into the down spouts.
footer drain is too much work.

CertPro
02-14-2009, 02:05 PM
A lot of newer homes don't utilize rain leaders to the street. In fact most just have spouting that spills onto a splash block next to the foundation

zedosix
02-14-2009, 03:58 PM
Just tie into the down spouts.
footer drain is too much work.

What down spouts. Here the water is dropped right at the foundation, so this is why we try to find a way to disperse the water. If we all had down spouts at the foundation we wouldn't be having this debate.

PlatinumLandCon
02-15-2009, 12:11 AM
What down spouts. Here the water is dropped right at the foundation, so this is why we try to find a way to disperse the water. If we all had down spouts at the foundation we wouldn't be having this debate.

I was in a subdivision built in 07 (in Ajax, E of T.O. if that makes a difference) and the downspouts went underground. I didn't ask questions, just smiled because I hate drainage :D

DVS Hardscaper
02-15-2009, 10:59 AM
One thing that surprises me is that most hardscape guys own a fancy smancy skid steer....but they don't have a trencher attachment!

Back in 2001 we bought a trencher for our skid steers. Back then paid around 3 grand for it. Thats one of the best investments made. Now, a trencher won't dig a pit for a dry well, but on the other hand we don't do many dry wells, maybe 1 to 2 a year, some years - zero. We can run down spout lines out and away from the dwelling and hardscape very inexpensively, no renting the machine, no rushing around to return it to the rental company.

LB1234
02-15-2009, 07:55 PM
So because I rent the trencher attachment that is a knock against me? Damn, not only do I install the pop-ups, I RENT the trencher. Is this a three strikes and you are out business?

DVS Hardscaper
02-16-2009, 08:52 AM
So because I rent the trencher attachment that is a knock against me? Damn, not only do I install the pop-ups, I RENT the trencher. Is this a three strikes and you are out business?


LB, it's called sharing a good investment for a useful tool that both saves you money (rental fees and time spent picking up and dropping off), and makes you money.

Danscapes
02-16-2009, 09:13 AM
DVS I love how you think your gods gift to landscaping. Pop-ups work just fine if they are installed correctly with a deep hole filled with gravel under the pop-up elbow. Yes I agree that daylighting the pipe is best but not every job is that easy. Say you have a level lot with no way to daylight a pipe, are you going to saw cut a hole through a curb to drain it to the street? Or cut a hole in a sewer or waste water pipe to drain your downspout pipe? I think not, you try those things here and get caught your ass will be in a sling.

CertPro
02-16-2009, 09:41 AM
For me, if I had a skid steer, I wouldn't buy a trencher. I would sooner invest in a mini x. It's better for excavation and you can get an 8" bucket to dig all the trenches you want. Now I do understand that a trencher is way less expensive than a mini x, but I believe that if you are truly dedicated to hardscaping and want to become more efficient a skid steer/mini x combo is the way to go

tatmkr
02-16-2009, 09:53 AM
One thing that surprises me is that most hardscape guys own a fancy smancy skid steer....but they don't have a trencher attachment!

Back in 2001 we bought a trencher for our skid steers. Back then paid around 3 grand for it. Thats one of the best investments made. Now, a trencher won't dig a pit for a dry well, but on the other hand we don't do many dry wells, maybe 1 to 2 a year, some years - zero. We can run down spout lines out and away from the dwelling and hardscape very inexpensively, no renting the machine, no rushing around to return it to the rental company.

I would rather spend the $80 to rent the ditch witch, than create additional yard damage with a loader. Most of the french drain trenches I have put in are in areas that are already soft from the water issue at hand. We even did yard repair for a homebuilder and spent a goos part of the year installing the drains and still never found the justification or need to buy the attachment. That thinking there (oh I want it so I will buy it) is why most companies don't make it past the 5 year mark. Of curse if you sit down and the numbers actually work for what you ar doing with it than thats fine. Most of us rarely need to do so much trenching.

tatmkr
02-16-2009, 09:56 AM
Really? All these topics and we are at 4 pages on pop ups? lmao

zedosix
02-16-2009, 10:06 AM
Really? All these topics and we are at 4 pages on pop ups? lmao

Its a good topic though, it makes you think about what you're doing and if there are better ways of doing it. Thats what these sites are good for. Just push aside the garbage and ingest what you need. I only keep answering because I'm trying to catch up with DVS's thread count.:)

STL Ponds and Waterfalls
02-16-2009, 10:19 AM
Its a good topic though, it makes you think about what you're doing and if there are better ways of doing it. Thats what these sites are good for. Just push aside the garbage and ingest what you need. I only keep answering because I'm trying to catch up with DVS's thread count.:)

LOL! Well said!

LB1234
02-16-2009, 11:08 AM
LB, it's called sharing a good investment for a useful tool that both saves you money (rental fees and time spent picking up and dropping off), and makes you money.

It may make good business sense for YOUR business, but not MINE. I can count on one hand the amount of times we rent our trencher within a year. At $85 a pop for the attachment renting it say 4x/yr thats less than 400 bucks. Say I can get a used one for 3 grand (tough but I've seen them). This does NOT make good business sense for me.

DVS Hardscaper
02-16-2009, 11:21 AM
DVS I love how you think your gods gift to landscaping. Pop-ups work just fine if they are installed correctly with a deep hole filled with gravel under the pop-up elbow. Yes I agree that daylighting the pipe is best but not every job is that easy. Say you have a level lot with no way to daylight a pipe, are you going to saw cut a hole through a curb to drain it to the street? Or cut a hole in a sewer or waste water pipe to drain your downspout pipe? I think not, you try those things here and get caught your ass will be in a sling.


Like I said - 13 years and no pop-up to this date. It's my opinion that they should not be used in climates where the elements of winter exist.

One of the aspects I like abour internet forums is that people put words into your mouth when the writing is there in black and white. Per your post, No where did I EVER mention utilizing a "sewer or waste water pipe to drain", nor did I EVER mention "cutting a hole in a curb". Such a practice is something that is not even an option for my small company.


My point is this:

All I am doing is provoking thought.

Frankly, I don't care how anyone does things. People do things wrong all over the world every day. People do things right every day. If we all did things the same way - we would all be equal. And if we were all equal - we'd all be competing with one another. It's our ("our" as in we as business owners) individual methods, beliefs, experiences, etc that are what make us whatever it is that our clients like us for. There could be 25 hardscape contractors in one town. But does that mean you have 25 competitors??? No, it doesn't. Not by any stretch. The only ones that are your competitors are the ones that are equal to you. Equal in craftsmanship, equal in customer service, and so forth.

It's my opinion that a pop up is a lame way of addressing drainage issues. Build a $20,000(+) patio and address the drainage with a mechanical component that is susceptable to freezing and failure? To me thats like building a million dollar home with vinyl siding instead of brick, stone, stucco, etc.

Who here has actually put your boots on, hopped in the trusty pick up truck and gone out and checked their emitters in weather conditions as depicted in the photo I posted??

Standing water in pipes that are not placed below the frost line will freeze.

Water around the perimeter of the piece that "pops" up that freezes can prevent the unit from performing. Gravel around the pop-up still freezes! Frozen water = water that doesn't flow!

Think about it - large jet liners have onboard de-icing equipment. If a hydraulic flap that operates from hundreds/thousands of P.S.I. on a wing can freeze up - the so can a mechanism that functions solely on hydrostatic gravity.


Here's a challange!

To make a valid argument that they do work and do not fail I would like for anyone that is in an area where there is a layer of ice on the snow like the pic I provided to randomly go out to a job site and take a picture of the spot where the emitter is. The temps must be close to or below the freezing mark. If there is snow or ice around it or overit - don't disturb it. Be honest and take a pic. If the emitter performed as expected and the snow and ice is melted - take a picture and then I just may be a believer that they do work :)

DVS Hardscaper
02-16-2009, 11:38 AM
For me, if I had a skid steer, I wouldn't buy a trencher. I would sooner invest in a mini x. It's better for excavation and you can get an 8" bucket to dig all the trenches you want. Now I do understand that a trencher is way less expensive than a mini x, but I believe that if you are truly dedicated to hardscaping and want to become more efficient a skid steer/mini x combo is the way to go


And I don't think any reasonable individual can argue that.

But here are some advantages to having a dedicated trencher:

1) You can transport the skid steer and trencher in one trip. The trencher can either be placed in the back of the truck, or if your trailer is around 18" long, it can go on either the front or the back of the trailer along with the skidsteer with bucket attached. If you built a hardscape that does not require an excavator, and you need to bury down spouts - then you'll need to do 2 transports. one to mobilize the skid steer, and a second to mobilize the excavator.

2) Productivity. A trencher is far more productive than an excavator. Here's an example: I once opened over 100 yards of trench to install a cable television line. The trench was about 2-feet deep. 100(+) yards, 2-feet deep, from start to finish took under 25 minutes.

DVS Hardscaper
02-16-2009, 11:45 AM
Its a good topic though, it makes you think about what you're doing and if there are better ways of doing it. Thats what these sites are good for. Just push aside the garbage and ingest what you need. I only keep answering because I'm trying to catch up with DVS's thread count.:)


To add to Zedo's thoughts -

If this dialog is too confusing for some and makes their head spin - I guess we could stop talking about the logistics of sales, management, etc - then maybe we otta turn this site into a site where we all do nothing but post pictures of our patios, skidsteers, and stripped lawns :walking:


Zedo, I'll slow down so you can catch up! There are many perks assoociated with being an OFFICIAL Lawnsite BRONZE member!

LB1234
02-16-2009, 04:20 PM
DVS...how do you backfill your trenches? Push back with the skid bucket? Attachement that does it? Do you backfill with "clean" backfill? How to you make sure the trench doesn't/is done settling?

CertPro
02-16-2009, 11:04 PM
Like I said - 13 years and no pop-up to this date. It's my opinion that they should not be used in climates where the elements of winter exist.

One of the aspects I like abour internet forums is that people put words into your mouth when the writing is there in black and white. Per your post, No where did I EVER mention utilizing a "sewer or waste water pipe to drain", nor did I EVER mention "cutting a hole in a curb". Such a practice is something that is not even an option for my small company.


My point is this:

All I am doing is provoking thought.

Frankly, I don't care how anyone does things. People do things wrong all over the world every day. People do things right every day. If we all did things the same way - we would all be equal. And if we were all equal - we'd all be competing with one another. It's our ("our" as in we as business owners) individual methods, beliefs, experiences, etc that are what make us whatever it is that our clients like us for. There could be 25 hardscape contractors in one town. But does that mean you have 25 competitors??? No, it doesn't. Not by any stretch. The only ones that are your competitors are the ones that are equal to you. Equal in craftsmanship, equal in customer service, and so forth.

It's my opinion that a pop up is a lame way of addressing drainage issues. Build a $20,000(+) patio and address the drainage with a mechanical component that is susceptable to freezing and failure? To me thats like building a million dollar home with vinyl siding instead of brick, stone, stucco, etc.

Who here has actually put your boots on, hopped in the trusty pick up truck and gone out and checked their emitters in weather conditions as depicted in the photo I posted??

Standing water in pipes that are not placed below the frost line will freeze.

Water around the perimeter of the piece that "pops" up that freezes can prevent the unit from performing. Gravel around the pop-up still freezes! Frozen water = water that doesn't flow!

Think about it - large jet liners have onboard de-icing equipment. If a hydraulic flap that operates from hundreds/thousands of P.S.I. on a wing can freeze up - the so can a mechanism that functions solely on hydrostatic gravity.


Here's a challange!

To make a valid argument that they do work and do not fail I would like for anyone that is in an area where there is a layer of ice on the snow like the pic I provided to randomly go out to a job site and take a picture of the spot where the emitter is. The temps must be close to or below the freezing mark. If there is snow or ice around it or overit - don't disturb it. Be honest and take a pic. If the emitter performed as expected and the snow and ice is melted - take a picture and then I just may be a believer that they do work :)


DVS, I understand what you're saying, but if you install the blowout as I mentioned, there is no problem. In the event the emitter is unable to function, the water escapes through the blowout. It's going to follow the path of least resistance. Certainly, it's easier for the water to flow out the blowout than it is to travel all the way up to the roof. If you doubt that then you can install a backflow preventer (we've done that too).

We've never had a report of a pop-up not working. I've never had a customer call and tell me that water is blowing out of the top of the downspout, running over the gutters, etc. Not trying to be a smart butt, but it hasn't happened. However, I do see your point and I think the blowout addresses that.

Obviously, where grades allow, daylighting is the best option. However, where grades do not allow, I think the emitter is a viable option and the blowout addresses your concerns.

DVS Hardscaper
02-17-2009, 11:15 AM
Ok, so now a blow out valve.

Ok, explain this to me in terms of below freezing temps and below freezing ground temps.

Ok, water builds up in the drain line (the pipe). Once it reaches a certain level - the emitter "pops-up".

Ok, so now if the ground is frozen, there is water laying in the pipe right below the point where the valve pops up. Thus, there is a chunk of ice in the pipe. Known as a blockage. From what you wrote you mean to tell me that this "blow out" will take the chunk ice and it will eject it?

If things underground don't freeze - then why is my well line 32-inches deep?

Pop-ups are probably great! As long as you live in SC, FL, GA, CA, AZ, TX, places like that.

As long as my name is on that job, and as long as temps hit or come close to the freezing mark - we're gonna do all we can to stick to that caveman-old theory that water flows downhill :)

Danscapes
02-17-2009, 12:54 PM
That's why if you follow the instructions there should never be any water in the pipe. The pop up elbow has a drain hole drilled in the bottom of the 90* so that residual water that doesn't come out of the pop up emitter can dissipate into the hole filled with gravel that should be installed under the fitting.

CertPro
02-17-2009, 01:59 PM
Well if the melting water you are addressing is blocked by this "ice clog" it will back up to the point of the blowout and flow that way. Do you not think that this is a viable option?

PlatinumLandCon
02-17-2009, 07:38 PM
Well if the melting water you are addressing is blocked by this "ice clog" it will back up to the point of the blowout and flow that way. Do you not think that this is a viable option?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this just sounds like 2 pop-ups on 1 line, with 1 of them further up the line and one at the end:confused:. How is this blowout different than simply adding another popup? Who says your blowout won't be blocked with ice?

CertPro
02-17-2009, 09:24 PM
The blowout is a smaller diameter pipe that is above ground T'd off the 4" pvc that goes underground. If the underground pipe gets clogged or if the pop-up fails to work for some reason the water will be able to escape via the blowout rather than backing up the downspout. We usually put a rubber boot on it to pretty it up. It works very well. Let's face it, the probability of your 4" pipe becoming totally frozen is pretty unrealistic. Especially since you have that drain hole in the pop-up with your gravel drain field underneath.

loupiscopolandscaping
02-17-2009, 11:15 PM
id have to vote 3/4 clean dry well depending on soil and water table

CertPro
02-18-2009, 09:41 AM
Obviously the dry well is the bees knees, but when dealing with budget constraints they are not always viable, plus if the HO doesnt have screens on the gutters your dry well will become clogged and eventually have to be torn up.

loupiscopolandscaping
02-18-2009, 09:47 AM
i agree if the system is installed correctly in an area where it can be used. its a great system, but clients budget is another thing.

soopa
02-18-2009, 09:56 AM
Last night I went and checked on a pop-up we installed, I've had the same concerns as some here and with the freeze-thaw cycle in full effect here in Upstate, NY I wanted to see if I needed to be concerned...

The popup was indeed covered by ice/snow and was frozen shut. It took a good bit of effort to get the emitter to work again. Once I got her opened up though I was surprised to find a wide open pipe... no water or ice...

DVS Hardscaper
02-18-2009, 10:46 AM
Last night I went and checked on a pop-up we installed, I've had the same concerns as some here and with the freeze-thaw cycle in full effect here in Upstate, NY I wanted to see if I needed to be concerned...

The popup was indeed covered by ice/snow and was frozen shut. It took a good bit of effort to get the emitter to work again. Once I got her opened up though I was surprised to find a wide open pipe... no water or ice...



Ok, we're getting what I would call "qualified" feedback. Someone actually got his butt up front infront of his computer, put his boots on, and went outside!

The pop up was frozen shut as I had expressed concern with.

Ok....

So now we're putting a drywell around the emitter for occurrences such as soopa has shared.

All that makes perfect sense to me.

But......say you have multiple downspouts connected to one emitter.

The top is froze shut.

So now that dump valve is doing what it's intended to do.

Lets be conservative and say we have 2 d/s connected to one emitter. Lets say we got a 12-inch snowfall.

And to be realistic, unless there is a heavy down pour of rain (as we had in Jan 1996 after we had 30" of snow), I realize the snow does not magically melt all at once.

The pop up is frozen shut. This emitter is taking water from 2 downspouts off of a big roof. The dump valve is spilling the water into the ground.

Ok, well.......is the drywell large enough to handle the volume that the dump valve is discharging????

See, there are calculations for the size of a drywell based on the square footage of the roof.

And to do this correctly.......you might as well install a drywell and be done with it!

Our area has clay soils.

DVS Hardscaper
02-07-2010, 10:44 AM
Ok, you pop up fools, don't think I'm gonna let this go away!!

You'll be flattered to see I'm updating ths thread with some freshly taken, compelling photograghs out my kitchen door!

We just got 30-inches of wet snow dumped on us.

Those of you that say "well the homeowner needs to do some maintenance...." - LOL yeah - I can see Helen Homeowner out there right now in 30-inches of snow (not factoring in the deeper areas from drifting) fishing all over the yard, in her paper thin work jeans and snow boots that only come up to her ankles, trying to located the blasted pop up that ex-lawn jockey turned expert construction-head installed 3 years ago!!!!!

And oh! Not to mention how toned the average homeowner's muscles are to pushing and digging snow!

Or - Frank and Helen Homeowner have since sold the property and now the new owners John and Hilda are supposed to know to go unearth the TRUSTY pop ups that were installed 4 years ago by some super duper looper patio expert!!!!

yeah....I can see it now.....The poor homeowner calling in sick to work because they have pulled chest muscles and are so sore from digging out 30+ inches of snow to unearth that pop up emitter that was supposed to solve all the problems and make life so enjoyable............

Dirt Boy
02-09-2010, 11:53 PM
Great thoughts on pop-ups!

Couple of thoughts/comments:
1. Seems to me no matter what kind of drain you have, if you are in the freeze/thaw cycle's that go on day after day, your drain pipe is going to be filled up with ice anyway you look at it. Right? You have a pipe that is buried in the frozen ground, you have snow/ice water running down the roof, into the cold metal downspout, then into a colder pipe buried in the frozen ground, then running umpteen feet to air or dry well, and it's going to make it all that way still in liquid form??

2. On our church building, it has main roof (metal) which can dump onto lower level roof which are membrane covered, plus snow, etc. that collects on them, and they then have vertical drains which run down the inside of the brick wall and out a foot or two above ground height (hope that all makes sense) and MANY times they have a solid frozen chunk at the exit. And they are on the south side of the building!

I guess I just don't see that you're going to keep it from happening (being frozen) period.

Like others have said, many times there is no option to "daylight" the end. So, IMO, if you can't daylight, then a dry well and popup is about the most practical way to go about it. And if you have clay soil .....

Anyway, I'm going to go look at a couple I did just for the fun of it.

And that's my rant for the day!:)

DVS Hardscaper
02-10-2010, 09:53 AM
The warm water coming off a roof will most likely melt any chunks of ice that are in a pipe.

But take a pop up thats burried in 20 to 30-inches of snow - and that's a different story.

Don't worry, more compelling photos coming :)


www.outdoorfinishes.com

mrusk
02-10-2010, 01:10 PM
wow 6 pages on pop up emitters.. I always just day light the downspouts or create a drywell. Paver scraps are good to use in the drywell mixed in with 2" stone.

DVS Hardscaper
02-10-2010, 02:55 PM
wow 6 pages on pop up emitters.. I always just day light the downspouts or create a drywell. Paver scraps are good to use in the drywell mixed in with 2" stone.



Yeah, hard to drill common sense into the heads of some.

"well, you just put in that there pop up, collect your money, away you go, and the homeowner will jus have to get off their butt and dig away to keep them pop ups workin........."

mrusk
02-10-2010, 08:25 PM
DVS you ever use paver scraps for the drywell? I know some guys frown about this, but i beleive in being green and recycling. Almost on every project we have some type of drain running to a dry well. If I do 8 projects a year I might haul scraps out on 2.

DVS Hardscaper
02-11-2010, 12:50 PM
Here's what I guess we could call an "elevation photo".

When it comes to mother nature, you never know what she'll bring for us.

Yeah, I can see Helen Homeowner out there digging through such depth to unearth the trusty 'ol pop up emmitter while her husband Frank is out of town on a business trip.........

AztlanLC
02-11-2010, 01:03 PM
I'm sorry but I think you are getting obsess with this, I have used and will continue use pop ups, properly installed they work

zedosix
02-11-2010, 07:47 PM
With that kind of snow or any snow for that matter, does it really matter if you have popups or not. No. The friggin water will run off the roof and find its way to the footing. Pop ups were created for people to get water off of their front walkway. No they don't work well in winter, tell Helen to disconnect it before freeze up and let nature do what its going to do. Pop ups are for non frozen conditions only, rest of the time who cares really, the snow will melt and will find its way to the lowest point.

steve5966
02-26-2010, 12:03 PM
I don't come to this site often, but when I do I usually end up with a sledge hammer in one hand and a dead blow in the other, wondering which one to hit myself with.

If you think homeowners should never worry about maintanence issues on thier own homes, use the sledge on yourself.

Pop up are fine to use, they have a downside just like every other method. Use the right tool for the right job and use it correctly.

Since most people on here are from the northeast part of the country and your argueing popups vs daylighting, I have to assume your behind the times.
Here in Nebraska, we don't think of ourselves as cutting edge or trend setters, but these are the rules we have to deal with right now. To bury a drain that originates from the roof, you must be a licensed to lay sewer pipe and get a permit to bury it. Why, you ask, because they don't want your water (if it landed on your property, it's yours) to run into the streets, sewers, stormwater system or your neighbors yard.
If you have a pond or pool, it must have a drain connected to the stormwater system. Why, you ask again, neighbors, erosion and lawn chemicals.

The pop up arguement is good for today, but you should be thinking about how your going to keep that water on the property until it soaks in.

Yes I understand that this doesn't apply to every yard in every market, but the majority of people have neighbors right next to them.

frotis
07-16-2010, 03:48 PM
Installed properly with a way for the water to exit if the popup malfunctions then they are fine. This can be done in several ways.

drewguy
07-19-2010, 09:51 PM
1) Why is the downspout connected directly to the lateral drain? If there's a gap between the two then there's almost no chance any frozen water would go up the downspout. You would have to have a lot of snowmelt during very cold conditions for that to happen--most of the water will simply spread out at the base of the downspout. (Even if they're connected, the water will probably leak out downspout seams anyway.

2) I don't see how the popup greatly increases the likelihood of the drain line getting clogged with ice. If it's draining to any relatively flat area, you still could get ice at the end, and, more likely, inside the drain line. That happens either way.

So there may be good reasons to avoid popups, but ice strikes me as either avoidable or unavoidable either way.

seabee24
07-20-2010, 12:31 AM
lay your pipe deep and drill holes on the lowest part. if you install gravel under it that seems to help with standing water freezing as quickly.

i dont use pop ups, i break too many with the mowers

and as drewguy said, never connect dirrectly to the gutter down spout. there should be a freez gap, i normaly install the 9 inch catch basin, and allow the gutter to free pour into it

DVS Hardscaper
01-11-2011, 02:35 PM
Well it's time for my annual winter revisit of this thread. Something I am adamant about.

I have read posts in this thread and I have read posts here at Lawnsite and at other internet forums stating stuff along the lines of "if the client does some maintenance, pop ups are fine".

To prove my point that we homeowner's neglect things I have come across a prime example of how neglectful we CAN be.

In our area, we have had a large amount of house fires in December up to current. I am blown away at the fact of how many houses DID NOT have WORKING smoke detectors.

Here is a quote from today's Frederick News Post: "McNeal said there was a smoke alarm in the house but that investigators don't believe it was working"

People forget to replace their smoke alarm batteries!! For those of you that think a homeowner is going to maintain a freakin pop up emitter. GET REAL, they're NOT going to do it, they don't even maintain their smoke detectors!!!



,

Duffster
01-11-2011, 03:25 PM
.......................

Hardscaper4life
01-12-2011, 12:15 AM
Can any of you fine folks tell me of an issue you have had with the performance of a popup? I have googled the subject and I find nothing. I have installed them for years and no issues.

DVS you are trying to persuade us not to use them. The burden is on you to prove that popup emitters should not be used. Why don't you move beyond the hopothetical into real world examples of where popups failed. Let's seem some examples, damage, etc. I have googled this very subject and I find nothing, let alone enough examples to make a case.

Maybe, if you provide some verifiable, real world examples, folks will begin to take you seriously.

zedosix
01-12-2011, 07:37 AM
My issue is not with pop-ups but with under ground drainage pipes in the winter that are connected to pop-ups. When the ground freezes the water has no where to go and ends up freezing at the downspout thereby causing damage to the surrounding area ie, brick or the downspout itself. Its very common up here. I hate using them and do warn my customers that there isn't a grand cure for removing water other than positive grading. I have in the past installed them but the owner had a very nice system of collecting the water which was basically a wide "tub" at the bottom of the downspout. Now it only worked when the ground was not frozen, about 8 months a year.

DVS Hardscaper
01-12-2011, 09:33 AM
Can any of you fine folks tell me of an issue you have had with the performance of a popup? I have googled the subject and I find nothing. I have installed them for years and no issues.

DVS you are trying to persuade us not to use them. The burden is on you to prove that popup emitters should not be used. Why don't you move beyond the hopothetical into real world examples of where popups failed. Let's seem some examples, damage, etc. I have googled this very subject and I find nothing, let alone enough examples to make a case.

Maybe, if you provide some verifiable, real world examples, folks will begin to take you seriously.


Thank You. Point Made.

,

STL Ponds and Waterfalls
01-12-2011, 09:48 AM
Thank You. Point Made.

,

HUH! I know it's cold out, but HELL is freezing over! OK I stand corrected. vvvv

DVS Hardscaper
01-12-2011, 09:53 AM
My issue is not with pop-ups but with under ground drainage pipes in the winter that are connected to pop-ups. When the ground freezes the water has no where to go and ends up freezing at the downspout thereby causing damage to the surrounding area ie, brick or the downspout itself. Its very common up here. I hate using them and do warn my customers that there isn't a grand cure for removing water other than positive grading. I have in the past installed them but the owner had a very nice system of collecting the water which was basically a wide "tub" at the bottom of the downspout. Now it only worked when the ground was not frozen, about 8 months a year.

Good hearin from you Zedo! And that's what we need to hear, as what you described is my whole issue with pop ups. This topic now has 8 pages to it, but I think somewhere I try to express what you described as my concerns.

I go to great strides to provide our client's with top notch service, I take what we do very seriously and nothing less.

Top notch service goes beyond making pretty paver cuts.

It goes beyond overlapping the geo-textile fabric.

Top notch service goes beyond answering the phone everytime your client calls you.

Top notch service also derives from a contractors KNOWLEDGE. EXPERIENCE. AND WISDOM.

Like you said Zedo, pop ups are great....until the ground is frozen. Or until there is something frozen over them! Kinda like stamped concrete, I have seen some really nice stamped concrete pavements. Oh yeah baby, stamped concrete is real nice....until the ground freezes and the concrete cracks.

Pop ups are used in my area, but they're not real abundent. When they are used they're usually installed by contractors of lessor quality and / or competency.

I can't tell you how many yards I have stood in where I was called after the fact. You know, people had a patio done by someone else 4 years ago and now they want to add on to it or they want other work done and the guy that originally did work for them is no longer in business. So we stand there chatting and during the course of conversation the home owner will start talking about standing water or other issues deriving from the pop up that was installed. I look around the yard and BINGO! The problem is almost always that blasted pop up!

In our neck of the woods, you can usually avoid using a pop up emitter by grading, a dry well, or trenching a pipe and daylighting.

I think last year I priced one job that would have needed a pop up emitter. Luckily, for my own sanity - we didn't get it!


,

qwerty3656
02-19-2011, 01:38 PM
FYI - real world example. I live in lambertville MI. I had a patio installed with a pop-up drain and also had my gutter's linked into it. Last winter I started getting leaking in my back room ceiling. This summer I had a roof guy do a bunch of work (install a sealant increase the flashing, etc). This winter same leaking/dripping in the back room ceiling. I have finally figured out (by all the icicles off my gutter) that my gutters have frozen up and the water off the roof is backing up beyond the flashing. The pop-up was covered in snow and frozen shut.

I came across this site while searching for a solution to this problem. I don't know if they put in gravel under the popup - that will be the first thing I check in the spring.

Cloud9Landscapes
02-19-2011, 02:28 PM
Pop-up drainage emitters are crap and anyone who installs them is a hack. Drains always need to be day-lighted and I don't consider a drain doing it's job if there is still water sitting in the pipe. Sadly, there are often times hard scape areas like driveways and patios that would have to be removed to install this pipe so it can be a annoying situation. Pop-up drain emitter harbor mosquito, bacteria and algae. They take the flooding of one area and move it to another place. They almost never pop-up and do their job because the build up calcium or algae. They just are hackish all around.

DVS Hardscaper
02-19-2011, 02:46 PM
FYI - real world example. I live in lambertville MI. I had a patio installed with a pop-up drain and also had my gutter's linked into it. Last winter I started getting leaking in my back room ceiling. This summer I had a roof guy do a bunch of work (install a sealant increase the flashing, etc). This winter same leaking/dripping in the back room ceiling. I have finally figured out (by all the icicles off my gutter) that my gutters have frozen up and the water off the roof is backing up beyond the flashing. The pop-up was covered in snow and frozen shut.

I came across this site while searching for a solution to this problem. I don't know if they put in gravel under the popup - that will be the first thing I check in the spring.


Qwerty, you can check for gravel all you want. And there can be gravel. But the gravel won't make that pop up .....pop up!

Frozen is frozen,

Best thing you can do is get rid of the pop ups.

From what I understand, the pop ups are supposed to have a small hole to drain water into the ground if the top doesnt pop. Well if you have 2 or more 3" down spouts running into one line.....that would have to be a darn big hole to allow water from 2x3" down spouts to escape!

If you need to get your roof water away from the dwelling and patio, install a dry well.

This spring will mark 15 yrs for me doing hardscapes. And thusfar, we don't have ONE pop up under our belt......



,

DVS Hardscaper
01-10-2014, 11:09 PM
Welp, now that much of the country is in a deep freeze it's that time again!

zedosix
01-11-2014, 09:36 AM
Been in a deep freeze for 60 days now! Today rain, I bet the water is spilling out a few downspouts today!!!
Posted via Mobile Device

Armsden&Son
01-13-2014, 10:41 PM
You are honestly Fu#$ing awesome DVS!!!!!! I started my company last year but I had worked for over 15 years for a landscaping/lawn care company right outside of Boston. The company had a hardscape division that I was lucky enough to work on here and there but I was a foreman for lawns otherwise...

Anyway, my shingle has only been out for one season and I already did 2 patios and a walkway... I didn't even advertise or set up for hardscapes, just got asked by clients so I did them... Just wanted to say thanks not only for the valuable information that you have posted here on L.S (yes, I consulted your posts many times over the last season) but also for the utterly entertaining way in which you present it. Case in point, this thread that I just read that has been going for what, 5 years now? Just wanted to say thanks and please do not stop posting...

DVS Hardscaper
01-14-2014, 12:42 AM
You are honestly Fu#$ing awesome DVS!!!!!! I started my company last year but I had worked for over 15 years for a landscaping/lawn care company right outside of Boston. The company had a hardscape division that I was lucky enough to work on here and there but I was a foreman for lawns otherwise...

Anyway, my shingle has only been out for one season and I already did 2 patios and a walkway... I didn't even advertise or set up for hardscapes, just got asked by clients so I did them... Just wanted to say thanks not only for the valuable information that you have posted here on L.S (yes, I consulted your posts many times over the last season) but also for the utterly entertaining way in which you present it. Case in point, this thread that I just read that has been going for what, 5 years now? Just wanted to say thanks and please do not stop posting...

Thanks man I appreciate it!

I'll sit down at a prospective client's kitchen table to do a presentation and you know what? I entertain them as well, and that ain't no lie :)

alldayrj
01-14-2014, 07:18 AM
Thanks man I appreciate it!

I'll sit down at a prospective client's kitchen table to do a presentation and you know what? I entertain them as well, and that ain't no lie :)

I imagine your intro going something like this, the most electrifying man in hardscape entertainment
http://youtu.be/6eVMw5DpT9I
And ending the sales pitch with "If you smell what DVS is cookin"

Armsden&Son
01-14-2014, 09:28 AM
Oh my gosh! I was dying laughing watching that video and re-living high-school wrestling parties! "DVS says, Shut your dam% mouth!"