Ethics Question

[TScapes]

Looking for some honest opinions here. I have a situation where I parted ways from a company 6 years ago. I helped start the company, (first employee, manager, salesman, etc.) and then the owner and I had a major disagreement on the future direction of the company. Long story short, after 5 years, I was forced out. No big deal! I landed on my feet and continued on to bigger better things.

However, I have kept a professional relationship with several employees there and even the owner. We still talk from time to time and have lunch 1-2 times a year. I have NEVER gone after any of his clients, most of all I originally sold. Now I have an opportunity to bid on a property of his, asked by PM to do so. This is only one of a grouping of 7 commercial properties. I know numbers on 5 of the 7. I am struggling with myself. Do I proceed and bid on all of them, or just the one?

Afterall, it is only business right?:dancing:

[I.M. Green]

I say only bid on the one if you value his friendship. If you want the others treat them like any other and ask if they are accepting bids. If you do value the relationship maybe call him and just tell him you are looking to expand and knowing that he has been in the business for while if you happen to step on his toes it isn't personal.

[Tommy Boy]

Seems like the time from departure to now is right, the apperance is that you did not leave and then make a play. I think your golden! Take the ethical high road, bid the job right but keep in mind, you have a unique insite on the property.

Keep everything above board and if questioned by anyone, be honest and you should be fine. Even most non-compete clauses are only written for 2 years in most cases. The whole non-compete thing is another post, but I think you are free and clear.

Good Luck

[Tommy Boy]

The key thing here is that the former company has not been injured or suffered from your actions immediately after your departure. Six years is a long time, so I say go after anything you can get. Accounts and bidding is generally considered intellectual property rights of the employer. You had access to that information and work product while employed and you did not benefit from your inside knowledge of this work product on separation.

The harm the company might suffer now is only free market practices at this stage in the game.

[TScapes]

See, that is my thoughts exactly! I mean, part of me says, "Hey... you were the one dealt the raw deal by this guy. What do you really owe him? Nothing!" Even the guys I call my friends from the same company that have since left, are all telling me to go for it. They say, "It's not personal.... it's business!"

My only hesitation is that I absolutely HATE snake in the grass people! There is a guy here from an National company, that is buddy-buddy with you in the social realm. But behind closed doors, he will stab you in the back so fast that you won't know what hit you. I don't want that to be me! I am honest and play fair. However, in today's economy..... I think that this might be one where I stake a claim. Afterall, we are probably talking about >$75k. That would help fill in some cashflow for me.

[Runner]

I guess I see it different. If you talk and have lunch with this guy a couple of times a year, and you have a professional relationship with this guy, it is different. You parted ways years ago with this guy over disagreement on where he was taking his business. That is your prerogative and certainly your right. However, as a professional (and this same type of thing has been brought up many times before), I believe the thing to do in the very LEAST would be to contact him and inform him of what is going on. I realize you're not going behind his back and cold calling the place(s), but if you are approached, and know who does it, as a professional courtesy it is the right thing to do to contact him ahead of time. Who knows,...he may just say go for it. As a matter of fact,...he may just give you some insight on this. Either way, it will be appreciated by him, and what is much more so, is that you will not start a low bid war. With resentment lke that, he may just go in and start arketing many of your customers - all the while, now things are rather bitter between you. There is just WAY too much business to be had out there than to be bidding on places of guys you KNOW and associate with.
That is sort of an odd thing,...because around here, so many of us asociate and work together. as an ethical thing, we stay well away from work of people we know, and in cases, even go out of the way to help. There are many examples that can be given...
One goodone that stands out the most (and I love telling this story) is that of another member on here. A few years back, while shopping for a new mower vac unit, I was running behind on cleanups. A member on here wrote and said he had an UltraVac that I am more than welcome to use for the finish of the season. Now mind you, this member didn't know me from Adam, and we had never even met. When I told others of this (like our Lesco guys and other lco's), I opened the story with his name and that he SHOWED HIS true colors...This members name is Marc...We know him as MStine315.
Anyway, there are several outfits around here - including just lawn care (spraying) companies that are all on good terms with each other. We borrow and loan equipment, or sometimes loan chem. like if someone is short and needs some on a Sunday or something. A few of us have even gone out and sprayed on each other jobs to help in a pinch. I have a good friend that we actually refer (swap) clients sometimes for the practicality of logistical purposes.

[Turfdoctor1]

i see absolutely no problem with bidding all of the accounts.

That is business. Maybe the ethical thing to do is tell the former employer that you intend on bidding the accounts, and that you know what the contract looks like. That gives him the opportunity to do what he needs to do as well.

But, IMO, you gotta bid all these accounts. No ethics problem.

[TScapes]

Runner,

I see exactly what you are saying. Unfortunately, that is NOT the case for the vast majority here where I am. Yeah, the smaller guys are often more "Professional" than the middle to bigger outfits, and they are in some ways.... a different breed. That is often a good thing!! Now that I am one of them, I would much rather hang out with them. I have several guys that do this on their own or with a couple of crews that I am great friends with and we help eachother out all the time. So I get this side of it.

Without going into my entire green industry bio, I can honestly say that the smaller outfits are usually the more friendly and more willing to help out their neighbor in times of need. Much like the example you shared. Great story too by the way!! My experiences with larger and national companies is more like the book by Sun Tzu, "The art of war". It is extreme competition, with extreme warfare!

In this situation, yes I consider him to be a friend of sorts... atleast in the professional and social sense. However, there were some details from our separation that did and do not sit well with me. He even has admitted that how he handled things was wrong and that I have been surprisingly nice and professional in how I reacted then and to this day. I agree that I SHOULD atleast contact him, but with how things are in my market, it is something that I am struggling with. Would it kill me if I pissed him off by bidding these..... NO! Would I want him to come after my properties? NO.... so yes I see your point. In short... I probably will talk to him about it.

Damn! It sucks sometimes being the nice guy! Ha Ha!

[TScapes]

i see absolutely no problem with bidding all of the accounts.

That is business. Maybe the ethical thing to do is tell the former employer that you intend on bidding the accounts, and that you know what the contract looks like. That gives him the opportunity to do what he needs to do as well.

But, IMO, you gotta bid all these accounts. No ethics problem.

Turfdoctor- this is really where I am at with it right now. But I am still on the fence.:dizzy: This is a National Property Management Firm, that has all their eggs in one basket. I know the costs, or atleast a firm grasp of them, for most of the props. I also know that being solo or atleast only having one employee, that my overhead is a lot lower than this other company. So my thoughts are if I went in there and offered a bid that was 5% or so lower across the board for all, and I still am within my profit margin that I strive for, what is the big deal. I still have to make money and put food on the table, you know what I mean!

I dunno! This is why I posed the question to you guys!

[Pro Edge Lawn & Landscape]

I maybe wrong but they approached you to bid on the property, that is not your fault, it should be the other company"s fault for not performing ( I assume thats why THEY contacted you ). Give yourself some praise! Remember its the other company"s fault they put all there eggs in one basket. I would not talk to your friend about the bid, if you don't get it no harm no foul but if you do get it IT"S NOT YOUR FAULT THEY CAME TO YOU FOR THE BID! It seems as thoughhe gave you the short shaft when you split ways and did not care about you! Go for it and bid all you can,hopefully you get them all!

[Woody82986]

I'd say that this is business... and business isn't personal. I know a few guys in the area and we are pretty friendly... but when we end up putting in estimates on the same property we don't mess around. The property owner will choose who they want and that's that.

[MC Handy Man]

Thats is qwite an ethical dilema right there. to start, he should have realized that without you he would not be where he is today. He after all, is the one that failed to realize that you Bid these properties. Yes you guys are still friends... are you sure that he is a freind or just a business affiliate. Have you let go the fact that he no longer is your boss? I think that the accounts are yours by all rights. However i would not take them all, at least not at first. Call him and tell him, hey, i just got a call from so and so... they want a bid, did you stop serving them? and when he tells you no then tell him that you are going to go bid it. your right, its just business. for him, what goes around come around. hell if it was me, i would shut him down. be sure you never signed agreements to keep bidding information confidential. Good luck. just go talk to him and maybe you might get some positive resaults.

[pghlandscape]

If you bid on the one account you will lose the relationship and he will talk behind your back no matter what you say. And this is a common problem in this business but if the account has invited you to bid then go for it just don't low-ball to get it bid what you need to bid to make what you need to make.But the friendship/relationship will end sooner or later Good Luck

[DLAWNS]

I maybe wrong but they approached you to bid on the property, that is not your fault, it should be the other company"s fault for not performing ( I assume thats why THEY contacted you ). Give yourself some praise! Remember its the other company"s fault they put all there eggs in one basket. I would not talk to your friend about the bid, if you don't get it no harm no foul but if you do get it IT"S NOT YOUR FAULT THEY CAME TO YOU FOR THE BID! It seems as thoughhe gave you the short shaft when you split ways and did not care about you! Go for it and bid all you can,hopefully you get them all!

I agree with this but definitely see where you are coming from. I had a similar dilemma except that the guy that I worked for and I parted ways on very bad terms and he went and trashed my name all over town. So a few years later when I started my company, I went after the accounts that I had gotten him. (only a few residentials that hadn't dropped him yet and a small commercial) Now at this point, I have the better name in town. Karma is a bit*h.

If you feel like you should talk to him about it, than go ahead, but I don't see anything wrong with bidding these accounts when they contacted you. It's not like you went behind his back and told them that you'll do it for X amount of dollars less than he would. Good luck and let us know what you decide. I hope I gave you some food for thought.