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Pristine1
02-11-2009, 04:28 PM
Hi everyone. As I send out my first round of advertisements, I want to be somewhat prepared for anticipated questions. Up here in Maine, we have a ton of Jap beetles, and, therefor, grubs. What is the organic control for these? I know that many people are deathly afraid of their lawns being munched to straw due to these pests. I will, of course, start by telling them that a turf plant growing in the right conditions will be able to survive much better, but I also know that they are going to want a little more reassurance!

So, to further my education, how do we go about organically managing these little buggers????

phasthound
02-11-2009, 04:46 PM
Hi everyone. As I send out my first round of advertisements, I want to be somewhat prepared for anticipated questions. Up here in Maine, we have a ton of Jap beetles, and, therefor, grubs. What is the organic control for these? I know that many people are deathly afraid of their lawns being munched to straw due to these pests. I will, of course, start by telling them that a turf plant growing in the right conditions will be able to survive much better, but I also know that they are going to want a little more reassurance!

So, to further my education, how do we go about organically managing these little buggers????

Nematodes, ICT NPP, re-seed.

Pristine1
02-11-2009, 04:55 PM
Ok, so we do have a way to treat the grubs. Hopefully, we get to it before the necessity of reseeding! With CT or the ICT product, are the nematodes already in there, or is that something that we need to go back and spray? Damn, I thought I was getting the hang of this!

treegal1
02-11-2009, 05:40 PM
milky spore is what you want......

ICT Bill
02-11-2009, 06:07 PM
Ok, so we do have a way to treat the grubs. Hopefully, we get to it before the necessity of reseeding! With CT or the ICT product, are the nematodes already in there, or is that something that we need to go back and spray? Damn, I thought I was getting the hang of this!

Nematodes are a seperate application completely, there are certain types of nematodes that look to the grub as a place to lay eggs. They get inside the grub and infect it with a fungal pathogen, the fungi destroys the grubs viability and the nematode lay their eggs inside the grub to hatch. This cycle allows the populations of nematodes to get going pretty fast, of course once most of the grubs are gone the nematodes die off and the cycle begins again.

Just like my back yard with rabbitts, one year they are thick then the fox and hawks move in for a season or 2, soon no rabbitts then no foxes or hawks, 2 years later there are plenty of rabbitts

Basically the grub becomes bio-mass in the soil. Nematodes need to be watered in and are microscopic, you can see some by eyeball but normally need some magnification to see them

Nematodes are naturally occurring in soils, they are some that are bacterial feeders and other that are fungal feeders. The nematode poop is whatever the bacteria or fungi has eaten, mostly plant available nutrients, free plant food and one of the major cogs in the soil food web wheel.

Our 1-2-3 NPP at 4 ounces per 1000 sq ft is excellent for the soil and costs around $100 per acre which is less expensive and certainly less toxic than chemicals. It is made from crab shells

treegal1
02-11-2009, 06:11 PM
http://www.arbico-organics.com/1221706.html

this will do about 10 acres at 42$ per........

Mr. Nice
02-11-2009, 06:15 PM
Make a positive identification first? then go from there... stick to proven methods that work.

RGM
02-11-2009, 06:18 PM
I use milky spore in the flower bed and gardens its a bit pricey for big lawns

phasthound
02-11-2009, 06:24 PM
milky spore is what you want......

Maybe, but it takes a long time to build up in the soil and only infects Jap Beetle grubs. Here in NJ the japs are no longer the predominant grub species. Milky spore will not infect the other species.

A little history: Jap Beetles were first identified in the US about 5 miles from here at the turn of the last century. Once it was realized how destructive they were, some pretty nasty stuff was used to wipe them out. Obviously that approach didn't work.

Gurb on right is infected. Cool. :cool2:

treegal1
02-11-2009, 06:31 PM
nematodes first and then some milky-spore

http://www.dirtworks.net/Milky-Spore-Grub-Control.html

phasthound
02-11-2009, 06:31 PM
Rutgers University scientists investigate soil effects on nematode suppression of white grubs.

By Albrecht M. Koppenhöfer and Eugene M. Fuzy

Albrecht is da man.

http://www.usga.org/turf/green_section_record/2007/mar_apr/nematodes.html

treegal1
02-11-2009, 06:37 PM
hey and any ways why not just grow your own, just poke a few grubs and your in the game. its a bacterium......

RigglePLC
02-11-2009, 06:55 PM
Right ideas, treegal. We have a Doctor Smitley in Michigan who has been increaseing grub natural enemies and bacteria. At times he will give away dead grubs that are infected with millions of bacteria or parasites.

treegal1
02-11-2009, 07:01 PM
Riggle, its not an idea we do it all the time, I got my kid trained to do the inoculation of the grubs...............

ICT Bill
02-11-2009, 08:40 PM
Hey wait a minute this is supposed to be very complicated

are you tell'n me that if you support the beneficials through aerobic practices and support the natural processes in the soil that everything comes into a kind of balance (not panacea, but balance) a kind of ebb and flow, yin and yand if you will

HUH???? who would da thought, Perplexing at best

I have to leave and read pesticide labels for a while... NOT

I especially like the ones that fold out into a type of encyclopedia of jibberish, 7 pages of nonsense, but their law firms are well paid

treegal1
02-11-2009, 08:55 PM
Bill the story starts the same every time, "it is a violation of federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with the label" now what kind of bed time story is that????

JDUtah
02-11-2009, 09:29 PM
Bill the story starts the same every time, "it is a violation of federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with the label" now what kind of bed time story is that????

Depends on if they followed the label or not...

Pristine1
02-11-2009, 09:31 PM
I know about the milky spore, it does take some time (2-3yrs) to build up to a level that works. I've also heard that it doesn't last. I like the nematode approach, and will now go to work reading up on that.

I think my eyes are going to fall out! I may have to start a journal for all of this~

Thanks everyone, I'll be back soon with more questions!

treegal1
02-11-2009, 09:36 PM
if you put down the #s to start it does just fine.... this is a #s game

bicmudpuppy
02-11-2009, 09:55 PM
Different kind of question. What about licensing to spray some of these things? I am certified/licensed in NM for NON Commercial. If I wanted to hang a shingle and do some irrigation and organic lawn care on the side, are the organic applications regulated? I haven't taken the time to sort through the NM dept of Ag site yet.

I have a 15 year old son who is very mature (and capable for that matter). I would do more consulting than actual work and he would have a job that would help pay for the lifestyle every young man that age attempts to achieve (fumes are EXPENSIVE) :)

bicmudpuppy
02-11-2009, 10:21 PM
http://www.arbico-organics.com/1221706.html

this will do about 10 acres at 42$ per........

Geez TG, When I was pricing grub control this summer (control did NOT happen when it should have and ended up waiting til panic time and spot applying) best price per acre for late application was about $85/A. That was for Carbyl. A more selective and friendly approach would have had to go down sooner and been even more expensive.

What kind of survival rate do we have on these critters? If you apply them at rate in the mid to late spring, are they going to remain viable and active for the entire season? Or do we have the potential for them to starve to death in a few short weeks and lose their effectiveness?

treegal1
02-11-2009, 10:29 PM
down here its a PITA to get a PCO lic # and any thing organic is new to them and you get a run around. I had it easy and have family in the pest biz and test well and got mine. now lets say if I use it then I have to have a label..

now there are other rules that come into play. there is no lic#'s out there for a top dressing service so, go pay the OC lic fee and your a landscaper or lawn guy or tractor service or dirt merchant that can go and sell installed " any class 1 bio-solid" that can be top soil sand sludge and so on. but if you make the compost your self you need a permit to do so or you get an exemption based on tons of self generated waste. or your a farm producer of compost that has a legitimate need to compost for on farm production,, and may sell any amount of excess product.

what is in the compost is the big question, as long as its under 2% of the total, it is not a feed stock and does not count or something like that. so a lot of grey area.....

next some states have an exemption for naturally occurring natural organisms that are considered pesticides in nature, how this law reads is not my forte. the next part of this is that I make no warranty expressed or implied, and have no statement of efficacy or fertility ( for my natural applications )

then there is the cultural part of what we do,,, no reg's yet to date.

so the whole thing is a slippery slope, heck go see the chem forum and that poor SOB that got fined for drift.

my best advice is find out who is in charge of your area, talk to them, make a friend. in my area the is a compliance officer, and they love to come and talk to me and ask questions, see my shop, look at the yards, look at invoices, talk to people and I have never had any fines of any kind. they even helped me get my cousin set up down south knowing full well and good that she has NO lic# and never plans to get one, but all she does is 2 organic, exempt, EPA ex. lic# ex. products and compost, worm casts and tea no one asks about how many nematodes or what type of milky spore is in the post, and no one says.......

also lawyer up for a minute, find that judges golf ball and start a little small talk.

and then again some states pass out lic#s at walmart

treegal1
02-11-2009, 10:30 PM
Geez TG, When I was pricing grub control this summer (control did NOT happen when it should have and ended up waiting til panic time and spot applying) best price per acre for late application was about $85/A. That was for Carbyl. A more selective and friendly approach would have had to go down sooner and been even more expensive.

What kind of survival rate do we have on these critters? If you apply them at rate in the mid to late spring, are they going to remain viable and active for the entire season? Or do we have the potential for them to starve to death in a few short weeks and lose their effectiveness?
SOM ??? WATER??? HOSTS??? dude your smart so you could grow your own???

bicmudpuppy
02-12-2009, 12:03 AM
SOM ??? WATER??? HOSTS??? dude your smart so you could grow your own???

I got the potential to culture and then apply, my question is still viability in the soil. You guys are killin' me. I've been out of "school" for almost twenty years. I didn't like bugology that much. I paid a lot more attention to........other things. I focused on retention for testing and then killing the brain cells after. I have been a cultural cure kind of guy my entire career (and before for that matter). The guys who actually taught me (didn't happen in a classroom or lab) forgot more than I'll ever hope to know, and "spray and pray" was NEVER part of the program. If the rig rolled out across a green (or any other managed turf area for that matter) there was a REASON. And in golf, fungicides do have a place, but a 1/4# of N at the "right" time will knock many diseases back into the dirt. A shot of lime or sulfur can accomplish the same thing (some pathogens like N, so N is a bad thing then). Change the environment, walk the tightrope with your water management, etc. Raising or lowering the Ph a decimal point or two will throw many pathogens off enough that everything is back to good, and it is just that "easy". The beneficial organisms is something I never concentrated on. Aware that they are out there, just never concentrated on it.

treegal1
02-12-2009, 12:29 AM
my best guess is about 2-8 months in the #s that will control...... sad part about this is that the worse the grub#'s the better control you get( as i seen it), wetter soils then, well these guys are water born more than soil...... so....... there's that water tightrope thingy...

sorry about so much extra reading and all, my brain was turned to jelly and ran out my ears long ago.....

again i dont have an answer for your area or soil, if this was a local CG i would have many more answers than I do for you, temp water soil grass, there are so many differences.... but off my head just to say, get the standard dose of eggs and then put them down in a stagger cycle in parts over time, 1/3 now 1/3 later and the last 1/3 of them about 10-15 days after the last app, sorry dont know why, something to do with the life cycle or something. again I have to have a small chunk of so many different things. I wish I knew more for you to use, I will do some reading for you and get back on this one........ that usually gives us about a year long control for these guys. if we want to cheat some we dig up some grubs(side of road or sh*ty yard in the hood) and infect them, let them stand a day or so and then just put the infected grubs down.......

treegal1
02-12-2009, 12:37 AM
I was once told a story about the days of old and how they shot plague corps over the caste wall, since that time it has been apparent to me that some days they need the plague corps shot over the wall. long and short some of the guys that we talk to in the southern most parts of my area, they take the grubs and mix them up with some water and a ferment is done and then applied, for what use or why I don't know but, they love there bio-controls.......

bicmudpuppy
02-12-2009, 01:09 AM
I'm reading. Really, I am! Method of culture (short of breeding grubs to infect) is said to be easy, but the methods are common enough that they are left out of the abstracts that are easy to find. That means the info is out there, I just have to dig more. A couple of papers mention injecting the nematodes into the irrigation and distributing them that way. Promising. Acquiring/buying an injector is another hurdle, but maybe not an impossible one. If tank culturing is viable and injecting works, then establishing a breeding tank and injecting small amounts off of the top of said tank would be a great way to apply. So what if I take 2-3 weeks to get controlling concentration down? Start very early, before control is needed and then, even when concentrations should be adequate, keep applying and restoring the population. Being "on site" every day and every way does have advantages to off set the hassles.

treegal1
02-12-2009, 01:22 AM
I'm reading. Really, I am! Method of culture (short of breeding grubs to infect) is said to be easy, but the methods are common enough that they are left out of the abstracts that are easy to find. That means the info is out there, I just have to dig more. A couple of papers mention injecting the nematodes into the irrigation and distributing them that way. Promising. Acquiring/buying an injector is another hurdle, but maybe not an impossible one. If tank culturing is viable and injecting works, then establishing a breeding tank and injecting small amounts off of the top of said tank would be a great way to apply. So what if I take 2-3 weeks to get controlling concentration down? Start very early, before control is needed and then, even when concentrations should be adequate, keep applying and restoring the population. Being "on site" every day and every way does have advantages to off set the hassles.dude you got it!!!! hugs and gold stars for all!!!:cool2::cool2::cool2:

and yes you got it easy same site every day, that helps to farm all your little pets!!!or is that co workers, or and partners, friend's????

I will pm you a diagram of our culture tank... and a clean large needle can be used to infect culture grubs!!! PITA, but #'s that are far out:weightlifter::weightlifter:

bicmudpuppy
02-12-2009, 01:31 AM
dude you got it!!!! hugs and gold stars for all!!!:cool2::cool2::cool2:

and yes you got it easy same site every day, that helps to farm all your little pets!!!or is that co workers, or and partners, friend's????

I will pm you a diagram of our culture tank... and a clean large needle can be used to infect culture grubs!!! PITA, but #'s that are far out:weightlifter::weightlifter:

I won't mind paying the about 100 bucks for the "small" size application if I can put together a good culture tank to hold them after that. Same with any of these things we've been talking about. If I can get a good culture tank going for the critters that tank is supposed to grow, that I can feed and perpetuate, I will be on the road to easy street. I won't ever get there, except to run the street sweeper or fix the muddy irrigation leak, but I will be on my way :) (I've actually worked "Easy Street". Had 3 irrigation accounts with a block of each other. All 3 were POS that cause ME nothing but head an but pain)

treegal1
02-12-2009, 01:55 AM
ok not so funny story, had GM at the CG hire us on to help him out, did my thing some and turned it around, next year more help and less$$$ and then a side of PITA. so i get into it with him and figure out that I need to split. wait my few days and go over to see the old bastard, and he is not there, some sort of health issue, so i send over flowers and a get well. he never made it back, enter new GM and a host of other "managers". next stop you guessed it the "workers" are fewer and fewer, and there is no money for my stuff or my time, cool i get it talk to ya later. here comes summer and the rain and the run off into the lagoon around this GC. and there upside down and SOL. enter new old GM's son to try and fill his dads shoes, great guy knows the course, hates the standard GM bull, and fires all the " management " and gets all the old workers back, and my fair share of the pie. great results the last few years, just had to wait the old guys out...............

now he does the composting and the worms the whole deal. still has some NPK for the greens and does have to do some sprays here and there, mostly pyrethrins, and loads of neem oil come the heat of summer and the bugs, but he planted 8000 society's garlic last year, and the bugs are a lot better and no more yearly change of the flower beds. he water crops some of the closed ponds, Grey water like mad, and SOM just this side of butter, almost a slow course.. but his bottom line has never been better. and the labor love the work, no hot suits all day with the mask and gloves, more mulch around the trees, less weed control(yes chem weed control) and the palms do not need the standard feed every 3 months to stay green, that alone saved him like 30K$

just hang in there and work what you figure out and then find some new tools to learn and one at a time you will get it together

bicmudpuppy
02-12-2009, 09:19 AM
The concepts are great. NM only requires a license for "pesticides". There is no licensing requirement for fertilizing, etc. The nematodes COULD require licensing if you were putting them down as an insecticide. If they were just "in the mix" for an organic fert app, I don't think anyone would/could say anything. I think I need to find a different tank..........one that is for sale that I can take home and set up :) Maybe 3 or 4! Put in worm beds and culture tanks out back. Maybe two CT brewers. A nematode culture may not be aquatic to start, but a tank to dissolve the finish in prior to mixing it. Charge the golf course for anything I bring in. The GM doesn't want to believe or support, so bill him :)

Sounds so much better than F*^&%# him ROFL

treegal1
02-12-2009, 09:38 AM
get 2 or 3 IBCs and a regen blower

Kiril
02-12-2009, 10:11 AM
Hate to sound like a broken record, but maintaining a healthy soil with good biological diversity will go a long way towards keeping pest populations at acceptable levels. It is when the soil gets out of whack you start seeing major problems. Good for the chem industry .... bad for the environment.

Until you can get your soil to that point, spot treat as needed based on the pest and by targeting the most susceptible part of the life cycle for the method you choose.

DUSTYCEDAR
02-12-2009, 10:56 AM
love the ideas
now the problem
up here in the great white north lots of homes dont have sprinklers.
keeping the soil moist for the toads is a problem that i havent overcome yet.
i like the infected grub idea god knows i can get wheel barrows of them.

ICT Bill
02-12-2009, 09:29 PM
Absolutely, Think out of the box and do it well
If you change the equation, you change the inputs

??? spending a lot of money on fungicides?? STOP

get things in balance, save money

Note: some how this posted in the wrong thread

treegal1
02-12-2009, 10:09 PM
Absolutely, Think out of the box and do it well
If you change the equation, you change the inputs

??? spending a lot of money on fungicides?? STOP

get things in balance, save money

Note: some how this posted in the wrong threadwrong thread same idea............

dusty it has to rain some time I seen the pics of your mud, do it then.................

mrkosar
02-12-2009, 11:55 PM
has anyone heard of nematodes not being effective because they couldn't move through the soil to the root system because the soil was so compact because of the high clay?

is this possible? i know you are supposed to water them in right after applying, but what if they don't reach the rhizosphere?

bicmudpuppy
02-13-2009, 12:26 AM
has anyone heard of nematodes not being effective because they couldn't move through the soil to the root system because the soil was so compact because of the high clay?

is this possible? i know you are supposed to water them in right after applying, but what if they don't reach the rhizosphere?

If the soil was so compact a nematode can't travel in it, you don't have grub problems. You have problems, but I promise you that grubs are not on the list.

treegal1
02-13-2009, 01:24 AM
If the soil was so compact a nematode can't travel in it, you don't have grub problems. You have problems, but I promise you that grubs are not on the list.
ditto..............

muddstopper
02-13-2009, 01:56 AM
The only time I see grub problems is when P levels get out of wack. This often happens when ferts are applied according to labels on the fert bags. You know the Scotts five step or Lesco five step, or similar fertilization programs.

To echo Kiril, manage the soil first, and you will have taken care of most of the pest. A healthy soil doesnt have pest problems.

ICT Bill
02-13-2009, 11:19 AM
The only time I see grub problems is when P levels get out of wack. This often happens when ferts are applied according to labels on the fert bags. You know the Scotts five step or Lesco five step, or similar fertilization programs.

To echo Kiril, manage the soil first, and you will have taken care of most of the pest. A healthy soil doesnt have pest problems.

i agree completely

often these companies are taking over from a landscape company who's regular practice is to include merit in their applications ( or other whacky combinations). A report I read from Canada suggests that merit creates dead soils very quickly. They were doing studies of spraying from planes and helocopters to control canopy pests in forests and it basically wiped out the biology in the first inch or 2.

there are a lot of practices that don't make sense to me. I often ask "why do you do that" the answer is normally "because we always have". This is especially true with golf course super's, once they get on a certain program they take the NRA approach. "FROM MY COLD DEAD HAND!"

balanced soils are a nice concept but often take some time when inheriting sites from other landscape companies

Kiril
02-13-2009, 11:24 AM
balanced soils are a nice concept but often take some time when inheriting sites from other landscape companies

Bad Bill, Bad. :laugh:

dishboy
02-13-2009, 11:33 AM
i agree completely

often these companies are taking over from a landscape company who's regular practice is to include merit in their applications ( or other whacky combinations). A report I read from Canada suggests that merit creates dead soils very quickly. They were doing studies of spraying from planes and helocopters to control canopy pests in forests and it basically wiped out the biology in the first inch or 2.

there are a lot of practices that don't make sense to me. I often ask "why do you do that" the answer is normally "because we always have". This is especially true with golf course super's, once they get on a certain program they take the NRA approach. "FROM MY COLD DEAD HAND!"

balanced soils are a nice concept but often take some time when inheriting sites from other landscape companies

Interesting info on the merit. If that was the case one would expect turf response to fall flat on it's face following a merit application if no synthetic N was available?

Pristine1
02-13-2009, 11:34 AM
It all comes down to educating your client on what needs to happen. When taking over from the "chem lawns", you will probably be using a bridge approach in most situations. I just like to focus on making sure my client knows why we need to do these things, and what to expect from his lawn while we are doing it....which leads me to my next thread! See you on the flip side!

ICT Bill
02-13-2009, 12:02 PM
Interesting info on the merit. If that was the case one would expect turf response to fall flat on it's face following a merit application if no synthetic N was available?

These companies are all NPK heads and apply copious amounts of fertilizer with the application. as much as 6 to 8 pounds of N per 1000 each year

I'll see if i can find the study, it was done several years ago and was, in part, a reason for pesticide bans in Canada

DUSTYCEDAR
02-14-2009, 12:13 PM
NOW BILL dont bring the NRA into this we didnt do anything to you.
but i understand your point
change is hard to do when your job depends on results.