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bicmudpuppy
02-12-2009, 12:16 AM
Lets talk Humic Acid. A lot of the "organic" micros I've used in the past are Humic Acid and L-amino rich. If I can get a Humic Acid source at an affordable price and an injector to feed it through the irrigation system, what kind of benefits do you guys think I could expect. Possible that I could use the same injector to feed molasses as well.

Also, if you agree this is a good idea, how high/low a rate do you go? The original suggestion from the supplier was along the lines of 4-5 gallons of material / month. We were talking about an 8-10% humic acid liquid.

bicmudpuppy
02-12-2009, 12:42 AM
On similar ground, what makes humate "active"? I have seen sources for both active humate and inactive humate.

treegal1
02-12-2009, 08:17 AM
worm bins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humic_acid

YOU ARE NO LONGER A CONSUMER!~!!!

treegal1
02-12-2009, 08:51 AM
oh oh yes humates any way you can, a little goes a long ways and water it in

Kiril
02-12-2009, 08:52 AM
4-5 gals / what volume of water?

Not worth the cost IMHO. Let nature make it's own humic substances, just provide the raw material and suitable habitat to do it.

IF you really find a need for it, then apply it with the CT.

As far as "active" I would assume they are talking biologically "active" substances vs. humin.

NattyLawn
02-12-2009, 09:07 AM
As far as active vs. inactive, are you talking about water soluble (humic acid) vs insoluble (raw lenardite)?

DUSTYCEDAR
02-12-2009, 09:34 AM
a little goes a long way as was said
what r you trying to get at?

bicmudpuppy
02-12-2009, 03:26 PM
The humic acids along with seaweed/kelp are in the natural wetting agents I have had access to in the past. Using the humic acids to help with water intake and the flushing of my salts has been recommended as possibly helpful with a low cost. Something along the cost line of about $325/275gal tote. Was suggested we try the 4-5gal/month rate (just over one tote/month injected) How much water? I was picturing doing about 1/4th of the recommended amount for 65 irrigated acres injected into around 750,000 gallons of water, once per month. This would be one of two "heavy" waterings per week.

There are local sources for "inactive" humate. The term "inactive" made me wonder what "active" humate would be? Humic acid? or humate that is in soil and not from a mined source? The terminology was what caused me to ask my question.

anotherturfgeek
02-15-2009, 11:36 PM
Has anyone used turf pro liquid products? I'm finally jumping on the green bandwagon and have found this product online. www.turfprousa.com
I have used it at home with way cool reults...

bicmudpuppy
02-16-2009, 01:59 AM
I really like the results I have had with a couple of products from Growth Products (http://www.growthproducts.com/). There Essentials, Restore, and Hydromax (wetting agent) have all given me fantastic results in the past.

treegal1
02-16-2009, 06:29 AM
you guys and your mined and farmed humates, the mined is WRONG, and the farmed stuff, why don't we do this our self's????say slow i am hard to learn............

bicmudpuppy
02-16-2009, 08:22 AM
you guys and your mined and farmed humates, the mined is WRONG, and the farmed stuff, why don't we do this our self's????say slow i am hard to learn............

TG, I understand the complaint, but sometimes availability/cost has to be considered. I WANT to get set up as an organic operation, but I've only been here 8 months AND you have to consider the amount of ground I am managing. If a good product with a decent price point is out there, it provides proof to those who do not believe. You have to make believers out of the money people before they let you make big leaps. I make a brewer/sprayer, anything I don't already have on site is going to come out of my pocket in some fashion. That or I have to create the opportunity to acquire those extra things. I am ready to do both, but it still takes time. My worry after talking to you guys is that the Growth Products stuff I mentioned above has a STRONG odor. It is bug food, not bugs in a jug, but what I have gleaned from you guys is that is should NOT smell.

Kiril
02-16-2009, 08:27 AM
I may be wrong, but I think what TG is referring to by "doing it ourselves" is letting the soil microbes do their magic where it is needed most .... in the soil. Provide the food source (compost) and you get the humic substances along with all the other benefits that come along for the ride.

DUSTYCEDAR
02-16-2009, 09:07 AM
Growth products do work great

Smallaxe
02-16-2009, 02:04 PM
you guys and your mined and farmed humates, the mined is WRONG, and the farmed stuff, why don't we do this our self's????say slow i am hard to learn............

I realize that this can become a real barn burner for believers - but - I am curious about why is there an advantage to leaving deposits in the ground?

Oil in the ground may leak into the oceans with an earthquake shift. Peat deposits don't do any good in the ground except maybe burn for years when they catch fire. Coal deposits accomplish nothing for the future of the planet buried under rock.

The flip side is - we have, a ready access, to materials for making things better in washed soils all over the world.

Please no fight. :) It is just a question.

treegal1
02-16-2009, 02:17 PM
it all has to do with the release of C02 in to the air, that and the mining, like P from Fl, they are destroying just for the reasons that they want to waste the other recyclable resources instead of work for them and use less fossil based fert. the reason most peat bogs burn is that they have been drained to be mined. coal whats so great about coal, smelting?? power??? humins??? clearing mountains so that we can see, the smog???

I just seen this guy that lives in an eco house and heated his whole house this winter with compost made from his own trash.

then at the dump they are planing to burn a pile of wood waste, well not now that I got to them...........charcoal!!! keeps the C in the soil and out of the air........and does not tie up any more O2

ICT Bill
02-16-2009, 04:55 PM
Bicmudpuppy,
I meant to say this before and forgot

I prefer soluble humate rather than Humic acid. Soluble humate keeps all of the nutrients intact. Humic acid is derived from harch acids working on Leonardite (coal light if you will) the resultant product has been stripped of its best qualities.

If you are going to use it, use the micronized humates, it suspends well but does not become totally soluble but is still so fine it doesn't cause any issues. There is another product that is a soluble humate mined from Georgia that I have heard good things about, turfpro or proturf I forget which

bicmudpuppy
02-16-2009, 05:48 PM
Bicmudpuppy,
I meant to say this before and forgot

I prefer soluble humate rather than Humic acid. Soluble humate keeps all of the nutrients intact. Humic acid is derived from harch acids working on Leonardite (coal light if you will) the resultant product has been stripped of its best qualities.

If you are going to use it, use the micronized humates, it suspends well but does not become totally soluble but is still so fine it doesn't cause any issues. There is another product that is a soluble humate mined from Georgia that I have heard good things about, turfpro or proturf I forget which

Bill, we talked about that one of the largest humate mines is just south of me. The cost is low, and while it isn't sustainable, it is readily available. I am still being told that I will see a screening machine to sift the sand I have on site. If a machine for that purpose does appear, I will have the ability to mix humates, compost, etc. with the sand and re-screen it (possibly with a more coarse screen than what I will be using for material on my greens). If I can put compost and humate down w/ sand as topdressing in large quantities, would there be a benefit to the soluble instead?

ICT Bill
02-16-2009, 05:52 PM
Bill, we talked about that one of the largest humate mines is just south of me. The cost is low, and while it isn't sustainable, it is readily available. I am still being told that I will see a screening machine to sift the sand I have on site. If a machine for that purpose does appear, I will have the ability to mix humates, compost, etc. with the sand and re-screen it (possibly with a more coarse screen than what I will be using for material on my greens). If I can put compost and humate down w/ sand as topdressing in large quantities, would there be a benefit to the soluble instead?

Sounds like an excellent mix, can I come get some??? your players are going to be very happy, and a sustainable message for those that live around the golf course is good too.

Humic acid is liquid, Humate is dry, so you will be fine. The humate will break down from microbial action. Keep thinking "spoon feed". humate is great spoon fed to turf and landscape but too much and it will begin to sequester nutrients. Humic acid was all the rage 10 years ago in golf courses, after 3 or 4 years of use they do almost the opposite that you want and the use has been curtailed quite a bit.

bicmudpuppy
02-16-2009, 06:16 PM
Sounds like an excellent mix, can I come get some??? your players are going to be very happy, and a sustainable message for those that live around the golf course is good too.

Humic acid is liquid, Humate is dry, so you will be fine. The humate will break down from microbial action. Keep thinking "spoon feed". humate is great spoon fed to turf and landscape but too much and it will begin to sequester nutrients. Humic acid was all the rage 10 years ago in golf courses, after 3 or 4 years of use they do almost the opposite that you want and the use has been curtailed quite a bit.

Calibrating top dressers can be tricky. I am hoping, if the screener actually shows up, etc. etc., to be able to do a fairway aerification again in May. Remove the plugs for compost and top dress. It is going to take something along the lines of 10-15yds of top dressing/Acre and I will be attempting 24 Acres. I am thinking the budget is going to squeal at 4-6 tons of Humate. Probably want the mix to be 1/3-1/4 good compost. So, I would be mixing 300yds total top dressing with up to 100 yds of it as compost. I would probably mix 25% of it at a time (6 acres is about 3 large fairways) I may be pipe dreaming again. The budget is VERY tight and wanting to spend 2-3000 on humate alone isn't going to go over well with a group that isn't on the wagon for an organic approach.

ICT Bill
02-16-2009, 06:51 PM
You make good points
If you want to make your point, instead of going wall to wall with a new procedure pick 2 holes to trial it on and show efficacy

make the case next year when those 2 shine, no budget battle this year and true believers next

When trying to get your point across about sustainable, less fertilizer and pesticide inputs always market to the Mom's and Wives. they will bring the husbands by the ear

treegal1
02-16-2009, 09:31 PM
and on that note, yes a little mined humate to start, ok so you had to do what you had to. but long term think about how to get the humics from a waste source or from a more sustainable method. and after a while you wont need that much any ways....

NattyLawn
02-17-2009, 08:39 AM
you guys and your mined and farmed humates, the mined is WRONG, and the farmed stuff, why don't we do this our self's????say slow i am hard to learn............

What exactly is your definition of farmed humates?

As far as mined, it's a byproduct of coal mining. Up until a few years ago, no one knew what the hell to do with it. At least it's being used now.

Smallaxe
02-17-2009, 12:20 PM
Turning wasteland into useable land is desireable in my book. Are wet peatbogs good for anything?
Definately a good idea to recycle waste into useable , life giving material. I like coal for energy better than nuclear. I like solar panels and wind better than both. Meanwhile, we are spending ANOTHER 800 Billion dollars on something other than subsidies of the new technologies to make sensible technos affordable to the average Joe. Or give the average Joe a new job. Like manufacturing the stuff.
As long as our gov't tells us one thing and does another , then I do not believe them, niether the 'sciences' they fund. This may be a shock to believers, but our gov't lies. :)
IMHO.

I think Natty is on to something. May as well use what we have, and use it wisely.

bicmudpuppy
02-17-2009, 05:53 PM
I was raised in KY. I have the abhorrence of strip mining that anyone raised in mining country acquires, BUT making the moral decision not to use a readily available substance is not a luxury I can afford. If the moral high ground is where we want to be, then I strongly feel that there needs to be enough bite to it to make the moral stand worthwhile. You can believe all day long that the way commercial meats are raised is wrong, but until enough people stop eating them, is anything going to change? On the flip side, I have seen some remarkable results when they have to "fix" the damage after the mining is done. The balance is in there somewhere. If the mining is done on a scale that doesn't destroy entire ecosystems (I have no issue with small scale and re-build before moving on to the next area, much like commercial logging) then there is a trade off for our technology level. What is the equivalent trade off with the mining of bogs? You cannot do anything less than eliminate the wetlands in order to mine the bogs. I can mine a square mile of forest, force the company that did the mining to terraform when they are through and in 3-5 years, you start to have the forest back. IF the mining is managed and they don't get to mine adjacent sections, the environmental impact can be buffered. You drain a peat bog to mine it, and where do the inhabitants of that ecosystem go? I am not defending mining in any form. I think all effort should be made to eliminate our dependence on coal, oil, and natural gas, BUT those efforts are not being made. The efforts to limit mining and require teraforming are not even close to what I would call acceptable levels, and I consider my view point to be VERY tolerant. I don't agree with Kiril and some others on the "sustainability" issues. I think that simple economics will always control the true sustainability of most things. We only start to have trouble when artificial forces prop up the economics because it "isn't fair" that only a certain class of people get to have sprinkler systems, lush green turf, fancy landscapes, etc. If water is scarce, then those who can afford the cost of "luxury" water should still be able to grow Palm trees in Michigan, or blue grass in Arizona. Those "average" Joe's, who, when you go to do the landscape or irrigation estimate on the brand new house, can't afford curtains, and the TV is on a milk crate, need someone to help them understand that they can't afford a nice lawn. In fact, someone should have explained to them that they should be living in half the house they have and one of those new cars in the driveway should be an old beater. BUT that isn't the wasteful American way. Everyone should be allowed to live 20-30% above their means and government should bail us all out when we get over our heads. Reality is a cruel thing, but it only hurts this much because it is such a foreign concept to us.

Wow, I rant a lot lately. Apologies to all the toes I am sure I will have stepped on.

JDUtah
02-17-2009, 06:25 PM
No worries bigmudpuppy.

I wasn't sure which side of which fence you were on, when? Good luck filtering through all the thinking and choosing a path. Unless it was to do whatever you can economically?

As for me, I'll stick to some advice Gandhi gave,

"We must become the change we wish to see."

Anyways, if I remember right you plan to compost etc. when things are up and running. Don't settle, but do not run faster than you have strength. Just keep the goal and never stop working till you get there... you will. (assuming that is what you really want to do)

treegal1
02-17-2009, 06:32 PM
What exactly is your definition of farmed humates?

As far as mined, it's a byproduct of coal mining. Up until a few years ago, no one knew what the hell to do with it. At least it's being used now.http://books.google.com/books?id=KBdQAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA2-PA497&lpg=RA2-PA497&dq=farmed+humates&source=web&ots=aLPTZIoq1I&sig=orqafAdu2oLI3O38uzoxSsX2HaQ&hl=en&ei=TkibSc38HJmatweyvqm9Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result

JDUtah
02-17-2009, 07:33 PM
http://books.google.com/books?id=KBdQAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA2-PA497&lpg=RA2-PA497&dq=farmed+humates&source=web&ots=aLPTZIoq1I&sig=orqafAdu2oLI3O38uzoxSsX2HaQ&hl=en&ei=TkibSc38HJmatweyvqm9Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result

"The drainings from a manure-heap, especially if it consists wholly or principally of horse dung, when fermented for a few days, and collected after a shower of rain, possess a dark brown appearance, similar to that described by Dr. Davy, and if allowed some time to settle, will become tolerably and sometimes perfectly clear; when such is the case, and it takes place in the coarse of the fermentation of all manure-heaps, it is an indication that, in the process of decay, humic acid has been formed, which, combining with the ammonia or fixed alkalies, exude in the state of brown-coloured humates. I may venture to affirm that one-third of the value of our manure-heaps is lost in this manner. If we investigate the phenomenon attendant on the fermentation of a manure-heap, we will find that humic acid must be produced during the decay of woody fibre, with the simultaneous formation of carbonic acid and water, and the disengagement of the mineral alkalies, which immediately combine with the humic acid, forming humates. The latter, being exceedingly soluble, are carried off by the first shower of ram which falls"

So you mean the stuff leaching from today's storm could be soluble humic acid? :cry:

I didn't get anything set up to catch it this year. :hammerhead:

treegal1
02-17-2009, 07:37 PM
hurry thats your tea running down the street

JDUtah
02-17-2009, 07:51 PM
Scooped up... use for houseplants or jar it? :) It really isn't that much.

I was surprised to find the pile cooking around 115 today. (This is my first 'real' compost pile)

Mr. Nice
02-17-2009, 08:20 PM
Nice jd....

looking good! might want to tarp it though so your nute's don't wash away and or you don't over saturate the pile??

JDUtah
02-17-2009, 08:26 PM
Thanks Mr. Nice. :)

Good call... tarp before the next storm for sure.

treegal1
02-17-2009, 08:33 PM
yes that is a nice pile you got going, may i say a few things, stack it up taller and larger( thermal mass). a cover would be nice. but let it breath. and maybe(don't know what it is) add some greens to it when you can. but that's a compost pile!!!!:waving:

JDUtah
02-17-2009, 08:53 PM
Thanks Tree. :)

Notes taken.

bicmudpuppy
02-17-2009, 10:24 PM
No worries bigmudpuppy.

I wasn't sure which side of which fence you were on, when?

typed three paragraphs that turned into another rant :(

I do believe (actually quite strongly) in conservation. I just think the political arena that conservation has become is more of a vessel for those who find it a convenient vehicle versus a true cause.

Deleted another paragraph. This isn't an off topic political forum. I avoid those.

ICT Bill
02-17-2009, 11:45 PM
Scooped up... use for houseplants or jar it? :) It really isn't that much.

I was surprised to find the pile cooking around 115 today. (This is my first 'real' compost pile)

Hey that is great, just move it from the front door so the guests can get in

thermophiles are very interesting folks, freezing on the exterior but they are "dancing with the stars" on the inside of the pile

Smallaxe
02-18-2009, 01:37 PM
... You can believe all day long that the way commercial meats are raised is wrong, but until enough people stop eating them, is anything going to change?
... What is the equivalent trade off with the mining of bogs? You cannot do anything less than eliminate the wetlands in order to mine the bogs.
... You drain a peat bog to mine it, and where do the inhabitants of that ecosystem go? I am not defending mining in any form.
... If water is scarce, then those who can afford the cost of "luxury" water should still be able to grow Palm trees in Michigan, or blue grass in Arizona. Those "average" Joe's, who, when you go to do the landscape or irrigation estimate on the brand new house, can't afford curtains, and the TV is on a milk crate, need someone to help them understand that they can't afford a nice lawn.
Wow, I rant a lot lately. Apologies to all the toes I am sure I will have stepped on.

I raise my own beef and do it naturally and without grains. Better meat and guess what - it doesn't cost more. Rabbits make good food and good fertilizer and can be grown any place where a cat can live. Cats are good food too I hear. See you at the Burger King. :)

If water is scarce then living within the means of the limitations is wise.

The average Joe doesn't care about fine bluegrass lawn if his tv is on a milk crate. He might like a job building solar panels though.

The whole point is of a philisophical ideal of - what organics is. When do we say that humates from the ground are NOT organic? On the flip side should we say that grain meals ARE organic considering the amount of oil and glyphosate and syn ferts it takes to produce and transport them.

Do we have to permanently drain the bogs and take all the peat? I agree there CAN be balance without extremism.

bicmudpuppy
02-18-2009, 05:18 PM
I raise my own beef and do it naturally and without grains. Better meat and guess what - it doesn't cost more. Rabbits make good food and good fertilizer and can be grown any place where a cat can live. Cats are good food too I hear. See you at the Burger King. :)



No gato, por favor!!

I like rabbit. I would prefer to thin out the warrens near my home and the golf course before wasting resources feeding them, but many would not have that option. Getting my, soon to be, 14 year old daughter to eat "bunny" is another hurdle. Beef w/ no grains? I do like grain fed, but that is a personal preference. Prior to moving here, I had access to locally grown beef through a local meat market/processor. Grain fed, but fed out the way a farmer feeds for his own use. NOT feedlot stock. Had access to local chickens and eggs then to. I am working on my "networking". I hope I can do the paperwork to get nuisance deer tags for next fall as well. They are KILLING my small trees. Nothing deters and protects a nursery like filling the freezer!

JDUtah
02-19-2009, 02:29 AM
Temp got up to 150 today. Isn't that a bit high?? When does the herd start to die? What can you do to lower the temp?

The pile is horse manure and brown waste (mostly wood/hey for brown).

Bill, yeah the next pile is going to be in the garden... not so much like a windrow unfortunately, but a better sight for my neighbors lol.

Wow it's late, freaking web programing... I launch my site Sunday/Monday... exciting times, the season draws near. Night all

Smallaxe
02-19-2009, 01:56 PM
No gato, por favor!!

I like rabbit. I would prefer to thin out the warrens near my home and the golf course before wasting resources feeding them, but many would not have that option. Getting my, soon to be, 14 year old daughter to eat "bunny" is another hurdle. Beef w/ no grains? I do like grain fed, but that is a personal preference. Prior to moving here, I had access to locally grown beef through a local meat market/processor. Grain fed, but fed out the way a farmer feeds for his own use. NOT feedlot stock. Had access to local chickens and eggs then to. I am working on my "networking". I hope I can do the paperwork to get nuisance deer tags for next fall as well. They are KILLING my small trees. Nothing deters and protects a nursery like filling the freezer!

Bunny tastes like chicken... :) She doesn't need to know.

I don't consider feedlots and factory production livestock to be farms. Farming is more like animal husbandry as opposed to the concrete jungle. First poultry , then hogs, and now they are doing it to beef.

Grass fed cattle is sustainable and natural. Mad Cow Disease is a result of feeding dead cows to living cows as a protien source. Grass fed milk production actually produces a cheese that is good for you. We all know about the cholesteral associated with dairy products and these are a result of the corn feeding.

Sustainable plants and sustainable meats, is an important concept. Not everyone needs a nice lawn, but everyone likes to eat. A lot of what I have experienced in farming transates well into the business.

Don't get me started on Bambi!!! They have become a cash cow for DNR and are raised rather than wild, nowadays. I am making new business by offering electric fence for protecting from the deer herd in landscapes though.
Anything that promotes income for landscapers, is a good thing, right? ;)

treegal1
02-19-2009, 06:54 PM
we raised guinea pigs in the Bahamas, and it is great meat...

Smallaxe
02-20-2009, 12:43 PM
we raised guinea pigs in the Bahamas, and it is great meat...

It seems a popular house critter. Easier to raise than rabbits indoors?

JDUtah
02-20-2009, 01:02 PM
I prefer snakes... they don't stink as much... less feeding... better all around. ;)

Ever thought about composting their 'leftovers'? (jk) But hey, this one's turd was basically rabbit after all... never tried guinea pigs.

Talk about worm castings. :laugh:

Prolawnservice
02-20-2009, 07:34 PM
HUMIC ACID ???????? what is wrong with you people














JK:laugh:

ICT Bill
02-20-2009, 11:18 PM
They have snakes on their brain

or was it snakes on a train

I do believe it was gerbels on a plane

scotty beam me up........OMG snakes on a ship

I think they were tribbles

treegal1
02-21-2009, 07:51 AM
trekky geek..........

ICT Bill
02-21-2009, 09:58 AM
trekky geek..........


:D:D:D

with the pointy ears to prove it