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Bush_Baron
02-15-2009, 03:16 PM
Hello everyone. I am a new to this forum. I have been viewing this site for several months, and have enjoyed the reading your posts.

Today I come to you with a trouble shooting issue….Tell me what I’m missing.

12 zone system, Rainbird ESP 12 plus controller, zones 1&2 operate through “Add-a-Zone”, zones 4&5 operate through “Add-a-Zone”, 18 gage multi strand field wires, 1 ˝” Weathermatic 21000 series valves.

Problem: Zones 1&2 do not come on, all other zones operate. Diagnostics in controller report “Fault 1”

What I have observed: Valves 1&2 are installed within the same enclosure. Valves 1&2 will operate manually by using bleeder. Ran “RASTER” test, it reported “OPEN 1”. Multimeter indicates open circuit on zone 1, all other zones indicate 55 ohms of resistance or less. I disconnected the Add-a-Zone and connected the field wires directly to the controller’s transformer. The multimeter shows 30 volts at the valves. I removed the solenoids, (S24BSA) and they operate with the 30 volts from the field wires. I tested the resistance of the solenoids while removed, 25 ohms each. I replaced the solenoids and activated them with 3, 9-Volt batteries, valves did not come on. Opened the bleeders manually, and the valves come on. Are these the correct solenoids for the valves? Since Weathermatic plungers fall out of the solenoid when removed, could they have been replaced with a different size? It seems unlikely that two solenoids would go bad at the same time, but I’m sure stranger things have happened.

Before I spend the money for two new solenoids, am I overlooking something?

Wet_Boots
02-15-2009, 03:54 PM
I think it would only take 2 9-volt batteries in series to activate a 24 VAC solenoid. How much pressure at the valves?

Waterit
02-15-2009, 04:18 PM
I think it would only take 2 9-volt batteries in series to activate a 24 VAC solenoid. How much pressure at the valves?

Been building valve activators for years - it takes 3.

FIMCO-MEISTER
02-15-2009, 04:24 PM
Hello everyone. I am a new to this forum. I have been viewing this site for several months, and have enjoyed the reading your posts.

Today I come to you with a trouble shooting issue….Tell me what I’m missing.

12 zone system, Rainbird ESP 12 plus controller, zones 1&2 operate through “Add-a-Zone”, zones 4&5 operate through “Add-a-Zone”, 18 gage multi strand field wires, 1 ˝” Weathermatic 21000 series valves.

Problem: Zones 1&2 do not come on, all other zones operate. Diagnostics in controller report “Fault 1”


What I have observed: Valves 1&2 are installed within the same enclosure. Valves 1&2 will operate manually by using bleeder. Ran “RASTER” test, it reported “OPEN 1”. Multimeter indicates open circuit on zone 1, all other zones indicate 55 ohms of resistance or less. I disconnected the Add-a-Zone and connected the field wires directly to the controller’s transformer. The multimeter shows 30 volts at the valves. I removed the solenoids, (S24BSA) and they operate with the 30 volts from the field wires. I tested the resistance of the solenoids while removed, 25 ohms each. I replaced the solenoids and activated them with 3, 9-Volt batteries, valves did not come on. Opened the bleeders manually, and the valves come on. Are these the correct solenoids for the valves? Since Weathermatic plungers fall out of the solenoid when removed, could they have been replaced with a different size? It seems unlikely that two solenoids would go bad at the same time, but I’m sure stranger things have happened.

Before I spend the money for two new solenoids, am I overlooking something?

I guess I'm lost or have tired head going through the logistics but if you disconnect the add a zone on one and two and wire direct to just one solenoid does that solenoid and valve work?

CAPT Stream Rotar
02-15-2009, 04:40 PM
Been building valve activators for years - it takes 3.

my activator by Tempo takes 2....

the chatter feature is worthless

Wet_Boots
02-15-2009, 04:46 PM
Powering a circuit, you might want more than 18 VDC for a supply, but since a W*M S24B solenoid will open with 12 VDC at 75 psi or less supply pressure, I see no need to feed it 27VDC. For direct activation of Toro solenoids, it only took 2 9-volt batteries in series, without fail.

CAPT Stream Rotar
02-15-2009, 04:51 PM
Powering a circuit, you might want more than 18 VDC for a supply, but since a W*M S24B solenoid will open with 12 VDC at 75 psi or less supply pressure, I see no need to feed it 27VDC. For direct activation of Toro solenoids, it only took 2 9-volt batteries in series, without fail.

what do you mean by in series?

wired all together?

Waterit
02-15-2009, 04:52 PM
I've always used 3, so there.

CAPT Stream Rotar
02-15-2009, 05:06 PM
I've always used 3, so there.

pics???????????

Wet_Boots
02-15-2009, 05:09 PM
what do you mean by in series?

wired all together?"Series" is a basic electrical term ~ the two batteries in your flashlight are connected in series (so the voltages add together)

Sprinkus
02-15-2009, 05:34 PM
Link to Add-A-Zone (http://thesource-online.com/Add-A-Zone.pdf) pdf.
I would suspect an issue with the Add-A-Zone unit if the solenoids operate correctly when wired directly to the controller valve output (Add-A-Zone units removed).

TRILAWNCARE
02-15-2009, 07:30 PM
what do you mean by in series?

wired all together?

Rotar;

Series is Negative to positive, then negative to positive for each battery or power supply. This will add the voltage of each power supply (battery) together. So 3, 9 volt batteries in series will supply 27 volts.

136135

Parallel is all positives to positive, and negatives to negative, all hooked together to for a bigger, or more powerful supply at the same voltage of one of the batteries. 3, 9 volt batteries in parallel will still only put out 9 volts.

136134

Hope this helps.

EagleLandscape
02-15-2009, 11:27 PM
One thing I don't think you tested was:

Did Zone1 on the controller go bad?

Eliminate the add a zone, wire the field wire to zone 1, and the other end to one of those 2 valves. see if it comes on.

If not, move the wire in the clock to an unused zone, or a zone terminal you know is working. If it begins to work, you know it's the clock. if it still doesnt work, there is still a possibility the terminal is bad, but more than likely whatever is in the valve box is bad.

those are expensive valves, weird to hear that they arent working. Are the flow controls turned down on them? Make sure they are wide open.

So with the field wire still wired to #1 in the clock, take a spare valve and set it near the valve box and hook it up. Turn on zone one at the clock, and go to your valve laying on the ground. make contact with the wire and the solenoid wire. if you hear the clicking, you have gotten closer to identify that the actual solenoid is bad.

Was it the S20, or the S24 solenoids that were bad? I quick call to your supply house to verify won't hurt. Also, WM has 5 year no questions asked warranty. You might be able to get free solenoids out of the deal.

If you try all of these steps, and everything works, then it sounds like it might be the add a zone.

Be sure that you only introduce one variable at a time. if you introduce 2, you will set your self up for harder troubleshooting.

Kiril
02-16-2009, 12:47 AM
those are expensive valves, weird to hear that they arent working.

Spoken like a true WM shill, especially given the track history on WM solenoids.

Also, WM has 5 year no questions asked warranty. You might be able to get free solenoids out of the deal.

You say this alot, but it is not true for all their products, however it is true for the 21000 series valve.

TRILAWNCARE
02-16-2009, 12:58 AM
21000CR Series Commercial Plastic Valves

21000CR Series - Black Bullet

· Fail safe "reverse flow" design insures that the valve will remain closed in the event of a diaphragm wall failure and extends diaphragm life.

http://www.weathermatic.com/index.php?mod=equip&cat_id=28&prodid=8

What's the chance of both valves going bad at the same time? Not much

But could the exhaust ports in each valve, be plugged with debris? Possibly, from a surge of crap through the system getting to each of these valves but not the rest.

I think I would take the valve apart and inspect.

bicmudpuppy
02-16-2009, 03:25 AM
You have 30 volts AT THE VALVE? w/ 18ga wire? and an ESP? These valves are 6' or less from the controller? What is your voltage at the clock? You have voltage at the valve and the valves still do not open? IF you truly have 30 volts in the field with an RB clock, you have something I have not seen. Best voltage I have seen from a 24v transformer is 28volts AT THE CLOCK. Some voltage drop always occurs in the field wiring, so to see more than 27volts at the valve would be very rare. The surge that has you experiencing 30 volts could have toasted the solenoids, the add-a-zone, AND the #1 terminal on the controller (and who knows what else). That the system has two add-a-zones is a red flag. Especially with multi-strand wire. Is the wire 18/13? Or did they skimp and have to use the add-a-zones because they didn't install enough wire at the beginning? Does the controller still show "fault" with the wires disconnected? IF the date code on the WM solenoids is less than 5 years, get two new ones. The add-a-zone is a three year product (I think, could be wrong. NEVER have had one go bad), but testing it is easy. 25homs on the solenoids should be good, but again, w/ the WM warranty, why not. If that fixes the problem, and it isn't my install, I would probably bill for the parts, BUT if that isn't the "right" fix, your not out anything. Did you get voltage through the add-a-zone through each zone wired? (did it work?) You haven't told us something, or it would be fixed from your description. Either debris in the diaphragm screens or solenoid ports preventing operation, or a power problem you haven't correctly identified. Good News, a WM is only 6 bolts :)

Bush_Baron
02-16-2009, 07:09 AM
Thanks everyone for your input. This was not my install. I don't know why the Add-a-Zone was installed, with extra wire available, unless the multi strand was cut at some point, and the Add-A-Zone was easier to install than finding the cut.

What puzzles me is the fact that the valves open manually, but do not open with the 27 volt actuator connected to the solenoids. The solenoids click when installed in the valves, and also when removed. My guess is that they are not staying open long enough for the water pressure to open the valves. I'll replace the solenoids and see what happens.

Thanks

AI Inc
02-16-2009, 07:54 AM
Rotar;

Series is Negative to positive, then negative to positive for each battery or power supply. This will add the voltage of each power supply (battery) together. So 3, 9 volt batteries in series will supply 27 volts.

136135

Parallel is all positives to positive, and negatives to negative, all hooked together to for a bigger, or more powerful supply at the same voltage of one of the batteries. 3, 9 volt batteries in parallel will still only put out 9 volts.

136134

Hope this helps.

Thank you, I never knew that. I didnt think it was possible to get more then 9v from multiple 9v batts.

Dripit good
02-16-2009, 08:47 AM
Always eliminate the controller first. Did you check the reading on zone #1?

Sprinkus
02-16-2009, 08:58 AM
I'd replace the diaphragms too. Might as well take care of it now so you don't get a call back about the same valve.

Wet_Boots
02-16-2009, 09:01 AM
Don't forget to check the blinker fluid.

FIMCO-MEISTER
02-16-2009, 09:20 AM
Sorry John I'm with KIRIL on this one. WM went from being the gold standard in valves when I started in this biz to making me a nervous wreck when I see the newer versions on jobsites. Even then repairing older valves with the newer diaphragms made me nervous. Maybe they've worked it out and it's an awesome valve again but going through all their headaches plus toss Ms. Lawnmate in and you have a credibility factor with me. If the SL had not fit where I was trying to go in service I would never have touched it seeing WM's name on it.

I would use a WM valve before I'd use a HUNTER though. 205F, DVF, 2400F, and you will have a great service history.

I respect your loyalty though knowing your family's long history with Weathermatic.

Waterit
02-16-2009, 10:46 AM
I've got to agree with bic - 30V at the valve is remarkable.

What is the output at the controller? I'm thinking there's a problem there, as RB has had some problems.

Sprinkus' idea of replacing the diaphragm is good, too, but if all the valves are the same age go ahead and do all of them.

Mike Leary
02-16-2009, 10:54 AM
Twenty-five ohms is rather low, but workable, I'd check the common, hard to believe both valves went at the same time, but I have seen it. The only clocks I've ever seen that could put out close to 30 volts are Rain Masters.

FIMCO-MEISTER
02-16-2009, 11:07 AM
If he has the add a zone doo-dad at the timer still hooked up that may be affecting his readings.

Mike Leary
02-16-2009, 11:09 AM
If he has the add a zone doo-dad at the timer still hooked up that may be affecting his readings.

Hopefully, he'll disconnect that dealy-bob first.

Kiril
02-16-2009, 11:12 AM
Hopefully, he'll disconnect that dealy-bob first.

...... and hook up the thingamajig to the whatchamacallit

EagleLandscape
02-16-2009, 11:45 AM
Shoot, if a product fails, scrap it. I don't care who makes it.

But... those model of valve is one of the best, so I will stick to my guns on that one. had it been a lower end model valve, I would change it to something completely different.

Bush Baron, I would say it is in your best interest, and the customers best interest to change out both valves completely. You are almost to that point. If the controller is ok, and the wiring is ok, just swap out the valves. Nothing suckier than doing an expensive repair, than having to come back 3 days later to find something you missed. Fix it all in one trip, and solve the customers problem.

bicmudpuppy
02-16-2009, 02:30 PM
The only other question I forgot to mention..........are you SURE it EVER worked? Sounds obvious, but.............yeah, we've all been there and done that. How old an install is it? Maybe its time to poke a flag stick down the solenoid port?

Mike Leary
02-16-2009, 02:33 PM
Maybe its time to poke a flag stick down the solenoid port?

How about just pull the bonnet and check everything? W*M, for all we diss them, can pass more crap than any valve I've ever used.

TRILAWNCARE
02-16-2009, 02:53 PM
The only other question I forgot to mention..........are you SURE it EVER worked? Sounds obvious, but.............yeah, we've all been there and done that. How old an install is it? Maybe its time to poke a flag stick down the solenoid port?

I guess it would be nice to know if he had the POC on or off when he removed the solenoid. No water out of the solenoid bowl with the POC on and the solenoid removed, would be a big clue to what is wrong.

djt22
02-17-2009, 11:56 PM
WM made a change in their soleniods about 5 years back and have been losing money and customers ever since. What color are the wires off the soleniod black or white and are they real thin or thick. I have seen WM soleniods acted up more when you use something other than their clock. Anybody else see this too?

mitchgo
02-18-2009, 03:12 AM
I have seen WM soleniods acted up more when you use something other than their clock. Anybody else see this too?

I personally like the new round top soleniods from wm vs the old square tops.
But I don't see how another clock would make a difference for the solenoids, other then what ML says such as Rain Masters ( and maybe some other POS's) that put out such a high voltage.

I think it is what you ' think ' happens. To see how a solenoid is doing is all ohm readings so unless you have done some study with wm controllers and ohms for wm solenoids and non wm controllers I don't see where you are coming from

Sprinkus
02-18-2009, 08:42 AM
Just a thought but a reading of 30V from the controller and 25 ohms on the solenoid could indicate that a poor quality multimeter is being used.

EagleLandscape
02-18-2009, 09:53 AM
WM made a change in their soleniods about 5 years back and have been losing money and customers ever since. What color are the wires off the soleniod black or white and are they real thin or thick. I have seen WM soleniods acted up more when you use something other than their clock. Anybody else see this too?

solenoids have been fixed several years ago.

welcome to 2009:)

Wet_Boots
02-18-2009, 10:00 AM
solenoids have been fixed several years ago.

welcome to 2009:)Yeah, but they're still failing out in the field, so there.

DanaMac
02-18-2009, 10:12 AM
Yeah, but they're still failing out in the field, so there.

Yup. I too have had replacement ones fail.

Wet_Boots
02-18-2009, 10:42 AM
Any failures of the new round ones?

DanaMac
02-18-2009, 10:43 AM
Any failures of the new round ones?

I don't think I've ever seen the round replacements here.

Mike Leary
02-18-2009, 11:39 AM
Any failures of the new round ones?

I think they finally got it right; we've had no failures, so far. :dizzy:

Wet_Boots
02-18-2009, 12:27 PM
I think they finally got it right; we've had no failures, so far. :dizzy:That's good news. I was actually thinking about getting those loose-coil W*M solenoids, but buying the coils from someone else.

djt22
02-18-2009, 06:40 PM
Your right get into 2009Thumbs Up So 2009 model's are good that's great to hear but What about 2008's that were pulled off supply shelves,2007 and 2006 being pulled out of the ground:confused: It went bad years ago not fixed years ago unless the west is using up the good ones and we east are getting the bad ones

djt22
02-18-2009, 06:50 PM
WM brought up the "what controller is being used ? they stated they didn't recommend not using their controller when this all first came about. We would use hunter controllers and heads with wm valves as the boss liked them better than hunter valves. Now its all hunter with no problems.

Wet_Boots
02-18-2009, 07:10 PM
It was never "what controller?" before the solenoid fiasco. I do hope they never farmed out the S24B solenoid manufacture.

mitchgo
02-18-2009, 07:10 PM
WM brought up the "what controller is being used ? they stated they didn't recommend not using their controller when this all first came about. We would use hunter controllers and heads with wm valves as the boss liked them better than hunter valves. Now its all hunter with no problems.

Least your not using wm heads!:drinkup:

Bush_Baron
02-28-2009, 03:22 PM
Update re: need your troubleshooting wisdom.

Interesting you mentioned the thick and thin solenoid wires. Both of the solenoids had the same part number stamped on them, but one had thick wires, one had thin.

I went to the supply house and purchased two new valves, pulled the tops and installed them on the old valve bodies...everything works fine now. I did notice that the new solenoids had a different part number stamped on them.

I used to get on to one of my guys (old hand) for immediately swapping solenoids on a valve before checking everything else...maybe I need to take heed.

Wet_Boots
02-28-2009, 03:44 PM
.....I used to get on to one of my guys (old hand) for immediately swapping solenoids on a valve before checking everything else...maybe I need to take heed.Ten lashes with a soggy shrubbler! :p

Mike Leary
02-28-2009, 04:11 PM
We've kicked this one around for a while, but for us, any W*M valve that has a square solenoid, I don't care what color the wire is or how thick, gets replaced, period. The 11000CR series takes a S24B solenoid with brass threads. All the others take a S2OP. We've had zero problems with these and W*M has kept us stocked, no charge. If you buy a W*M valve new, make sure it has the round solenoids.

Wet_Boots
02-28-2009, 04:29 PM
I think I finally ran out of my 1990's M24E solenoids, so it's great if W*M has their act cleaned up.

Mike Leary
02-28-2009, 04:43 PM
I think I finally ran out of my 1990's M24E solenoids, so it's great if W*M has their act cleaned up.

It could have put the company under, and I think W*M finally got it, we had over two hundred solenoids go down and I was pissed.
Typical of a company that tried the "Miss Lawn Mate" ploy.