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Elite LawnCare
02-19-2009, 06:23 PM
I have 3 apple trees just heavily pruned from years of over growth. I want them to do good this year. Their are spots on the tree im thinkin some kind of fungus? Not too sure about trees at all. Last year the fruit wasen't that great and had quite a bit of spots on that too. Some of the fruit that got picked off the ground had worms in it but im not sure if that happend on the tree or not. Not sure about the history of them because this property is new to me.

JDUtah
02-19-2009, 06:59 PM
Try Bill's NPP? He should chime in soon enough...

Mulch around the bottom of them as far as the limbs went... but not touching the trunks (can cause disease issues).

Elite LawnCare
02-19-2009, 07:11 PM
Mulch around the bottom of them as far as the limbs went... but not touching the trunks (can cause disease issues).

I like this advice, I read it somewheres else around here too it makes sence. Would you also spray fungal tea? I wouldent know how many apps. or what else you would do. Would you apply to a fruit tree different than for example a maple?

phasthound
02-19-2009, 07:21 PM
I like this advice, I read it somewheres else around here too it makes sence. Would you also spray fungal tea? I wouldent know how many apps. or what else you would do. Would you apply to a fruit tree different than for example a maple?

If you're brewing your own tea & it's on the fungal side, best advice is to spray every 2 weeks beginning at bud break. Remove fallen leaves that might be infected and compost them off site. Proper pruning will increase airflow to reduce fungus.

Eat the worms, good protein. :)

White Gardens
02-20-2009, 02:08 AM
My question is, how old is the apple tree? They tend to die back and become more susceptible to fungus and disease as they get older.

Generally speaking, you can get about 15 years of good apples out of an apple tree.

You said you just got the property and they were overgrown. The trees might be past maturity, needs to be ripped out, and a new ones planted.

treegal1
02-20-2009, 09:15 AM
heavily pruned= wrong


so now it comes down to cutting them down and replanting:laugh::laugh:

dishboy
02-20-2009, 09:40 AM
heavily pruned= wrong


so now it comes down to cutting them down and replanting:laugh::laugh:

Heavily pruned is a pretty broad term , please cite your source how that is wrong for a apple.

greenbaylawns
02-20-2009, 09:59 AM
Use it for the smoker now

Barefoot James
02-20-2009, 10:30 AM
When you say spots in the tree what does that mean. If the bark is damaged and it looks like something is chewing on the outside of the trunks and limbs it is probably flat headed appletree borer.

bt (which is in ict's product) may work if it has tthe right strain of bt - bill??

Since a borer is not a fungus but ore of a insect I doubt NPP would work.

If it is really bad cut it down and replant - if you want to try to save it you should try some teas - especially ict or even a non organic silicon penetrate called Onyx - in early may and follow up again 3 weeks later.

It also might be apple rust which NPP should work on - this looks like rust on the leaves.

treegal1
02-20-2009, 10:43 AM
Heavily pruned is a pretty broad term , please cite your source how that is wrong for a apple.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=proper+pruning+ISA&aq=f&oq=

dishboy
02-20-2009, 11:05 AM
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=proper+pruning+ISA&aq=f&oq=


Funny, how about site your specific source that says heavy pruning is bad foe a apple.

treegal1
02-20-2009, 11:12 AM
Funny, how about site your specific source that says heavy pruning is bad foe a apple.

arborists certification study guide; sharon j lilly; isbn 1-881956-26-1; chapter 8; page 81-91.

ansi A300; costello 2000. training trees for structure and form; gilman 1997.

or you can fly down and see my shingle

dishboy
02-20-2009, 11:21 AM
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=proper+pruning+ISA&aq=f&oq=


I do not have access to those sources so thank you anyway. I am not in total disagreement as heavy pruning will encourage a lot of vegetative growth which may or may not be what you want. Inferring that heavy pruning results in a dead tree in a apple which is what I got from your post is not what I have seen from apples that are pruned heavily but with accepted pruning guidelines such as do not remove more than 1/3
live wood at a time.

Kiril
02-20-2009, 12:29 PM
Where are the pics? Too much speculation, not enough pics.

Barefoot James
02-20-2009, 05:43 PM
Yes Pics we need pics. Let's all agree that until we get a pic's - NO COMMENTS.
TOOOO much speculation - tree's posting her certs - how bad does it get???

White Gardens
02-20-2009, 06:17 PM
This is some info for everyone to make an educated decision.

TREEGAL is right.

136763

treegal1
02-20-2009, 06:33 PM
Use it for the smoker nowWell as Long as we are azz patting and back scratching, this is a stellar idea, Apple smoked meat and cheese, please send me some !!!! how i miss Georgia some times............ hog jowls..........

treegal1
02-20-2009, 06:37 PM
I do not have access to those sources so thank you anyway. I am not in total disagreement as heavy pruning will encourage a lot of vegetative growth which may or may not be what you want. Inferring that heavy pruning results in a dead tree in a apple which is what I got from your post is not what I have seen from apples that are pruned heavily but with accepted pruning guidelines such as do not remove more than 1/3
live wood at a time.

well as someone that carries the big black bible of trees around like a talisman, go get one!! try the used book store or better yet join the ISA and order the book with a member discount!!! the membership comes with an ad if you like. and talk about a target, tree huggers than love MYCO......................why do trees get sick/ they are starving!!

Elite LawnCare
02-20-2009, 08:07 PM
Thank you for the great responses. I will get some pictures up soon within the next few days. One more thing I should start another form for but here it goes.......what would unprocessed honey do for brew? could you use it as a simple sugar? or is it complex? just curious

NattyLawn
02-20-2009, 08:31 PM
what would unprocessed honey do for brew? could you use it as a simple sugar? or is it complex? just curious

There was some talk a little bit ago on the yahoo group about honey being anti-microbial...I'll have to see if I remember my login...

dishboy
02-20-2009, 09:35 PM
This is some info for everyone to make an educated decision.

TREEGAL is right.

136763


LMAOROF you say tree is right and post a attachment that supports my position. Like I said heavy pruning is a pretty broad term.


"Pruning after 10 years. Pruning now should be heavier. Trees should be in their
prime bearing years. Bearing surfaces must be renewed by cutting out older
wood and encouraging new growth. Trees will be growing tall and broad unless
branches are shortened. Annual thinning-out pruning is needed to keep the
trees open and prevent them from becoming too dense. Summer pruning may
be helpful in maintaining the desired tree size.
As trees grow older they lose some of their vigor. To overcome this loss of
vigor, the amount of annual pruning should be increased. See Figure L-25.

Pruning neglected apple trees. Trees not properly trained when young, and
trained trees that have not been pruned for several years usually develop the following conditions: They have too many branches; the trees
are tall; lateral branches are long; the tree is too dense, so that
sunlight does not penetrate the interior of the tree.
The first step in pruning is to select six to ten of the better
branches for scaffolds. These will usually be the larger branches
with wide-angle crotches. The other branches arising from the
trunk should be removed over a 3-year period, cutting out about
one-third each year. Spreading this branch removal over a 3-year
period reduces the shock to the tree. Excessive pruning at one
time may upset normal bearing for several years.
Long or tall scaffolds should be shortened. Some thinning out
of these selected scaffolds probably will be needed.
Do not fertilize trees during this corrective pruning period. The
corrective pruning will provide enough stimulation of growth."

White Gardens
02-20-2009, 09:55 PM
LMAOROF you say tree is right and post a attachment that supports my position. Like I said heavy pruning is a pretty broad term.




I should of mentioned I was mainly referring to the "neglected' section of the text.

ICT Bill
02-21-2009, 11:17 AM
I am not one for a shotgun approach, forget the NPP advice start slow

Mulching to drip line is excellent advice, often trees in the landscape have been bombarded by grub control, fungal control, over fertilization, you know the good old 4 step program to dead and compacted soils. Start with a layer of compost topped by some good wood mulch. not too thick, the soil needs to breathe

Find your local extention agent and ask them some local advice. These folks have seen everything but on a local scale. use an IPM approach and diagnose first

If you can spray that far into the tree I see no reason why you shouldn't start CT this spring. One thing about CT, you can't do it wrong you can only do it better

treegal1
02-21-2009, 11:48 AM
Bill let me tell you a story, deepgreenlawn will get a good laugh, I bought this apple orchard in north Ga, nice place older trees, and i thought i was going to farm apples and all that, you know good older trees and all, the guy said that they where producing good and had been trimmed a few years back, all healed up and bearing. so i took a look and it was not so bad some codominat leads, and that should have sent of alarm bells but i missed it in the heat of the moment. need less to say, years of growth had covered years of mis managements and improper care/pruning. so after some more research and talking with other apple and fruit crop farmers I ripper them all down and sold the mulch, then replanted some other trees and have been happy about the decision not to try and save the dying, and care for the well!!! granted i did not see a pic and would love to see one, but just the opening line said the patent history was leading to a post mortem. that and some of the newer cultivars of apples and some of the grafts are out of this world. hey why not be bold and find a multi graft tree, then you could have 9 types of apples and 3 trees?? or and this is sort of a specialty and would need someone familiar with grafting, maybe these trees need to be re grafted to get the fresh start that you need. but like Kiril said its all sort of speculation until you can see or get an expert opinion or what to do the economic impact, of fruit in the bowl impact that you are wanting. I think that the underlying part of my first post was the slight if feel every time someone wants the arborist to save a tree after there attack on the tree in the first place, proper tree care does not start off with a chain saw running petroleum bar oil and one cut stubs all over the trunk with 2 co dominate leads left (just a generalization). I think that the best idea, advice of all so far is to get more info from several good sources that match up and concur on the prognosis, be it win lose or a draw. or just plant more trees and also help the ones you have ?? that's the nursery grower tree hugger in full color. BUT LETS SEE A PIC THAT WOULD BE FUN......

Kiril
02-21-2009, 11:54 AM
I ripper them all down and sold the mulch.

TG's crew back in the day. ;)

http://pro.corbis.com/images/HC002689.jpg?size=67&uid={3fa65d44-1694-4e0d-b29d-aed6a3dbe21c}

treegal1
02-21-2009, 11:59 AM
maybe not the old growth stuff but we do and are going to forest then now and in the future! yes most of the timber leases we work with have replant contracts attached and most are moving away from monoculture!!

the big one stays and most of the little ones get thinned

Kiril
02-21-2009, 12:11 PM
::dies a little inside:: :cry:

treegal1
02-21-2009, 12:20 PM
it runs on veg oil at least.....:waving:

naughty62
02-22-2009, 08:05 AM
While you studying up on cultural practices .A lot of the disease resistant cultivars that are sold by repiatable nurseries around here come from upstate N.Y. . If you have room you might want to plant for the future .

Elite LawnCare
02-22-2009, 11:55 PM
Heres some Pictures

Elite LawnCare
02-23-2009, 12:03 AM
Heres some more

treegal1
02-23-2009, 12:13 AM
taps plays slow in the background, and the doctor comes out of the room and says " please sit down" and then the priest slips in beside him and looks low, with a stare on his face, just saying sorry for your loss with his eyes...

I am no apple expert but with the termite damage and core rot and all the other things I see not to mention the rough bark disease, yeah it may just be time to start over and take great care of your new trees. but let me say again, not an apple expert........

Elite LawnCare
02-23-2009, 12:18 AM
lol...Love the posts and support. It will be unfortunate to get rid of these trees if they are not savable :( But I guess the bright side is I can start over. I will still see what else everyone has to say. Thanx again

treegal1
02-23-2009, 12:23 AM
yeah wish i could give more insight, the one does not even look like the graft is the one still alive, it looks like a sucker. but I could be wrong. any ways the core death is the red flag to me. any ways a new healthy tree will grow faster and produce more that all the work chems and time it will take to nurse these or gems back to health. but down here when we get a mango out of its prime we cut it down to the stump and re graft it so.... lets here it from an apple whiz......

Kiril
02-23-2009, 12:25 AM
whats up with the pics of lichen/moss/algae?

Elite LawnCare
02-23-2009, 12:27 AM
What do you mean?

Elite LawnCare
02-23-2009, 12:30 AM
yeah wish i could give more insight, the one does not even look like the graft is the one still alive, it looks like a sucker. but I could be wrong. any ways the core death is the red flag to me. any ways a new healthy tree will grow faster and produce more that all the work chems and time it will take to nurse these or gems back to health. but down here when we get a mango out of its prime we cut it down to the stump and re graft it so.... lets here it from an apple whiz......


I dont think these trees were ever grafted. So this tree calls for a bit more than CT and a good base for the drip line?

Kiril
02-23-2009, 12:35 AM
What do you mean?

Your close-up shots.

treegal1
02-23-2009, 12:42 AM
whats up with the pics of lichen/moss/algae?thanks, I will let you get that one:laugh::laugh:

44DCNF
02-23-2009, 12:44 AM
Elite, here is a good article on the apple. Not on the care of the tree, but a little on it's history and a museum orchard in NY.
Breaking Ground: The Call of the Wild Apple (http://www.michaelpollan.com/article.php?id=54)

treegal1
02-23-2009, 12:49 AM
I dont think these trees were ever grafted. So this tree calls for a bit more than CT and a good base for the drip line?
you can not take a 90 year old man and give him a shot of latte and some steroids and put him in the Olympics. maybe the old timers ballroom dance but thats from 6pm till 7 pm and he's looking for the advil the next day. you want the fresh new tree ready to hit the ground with some compost and maybe some MYCO, and then have a class or 2 before you let any one put the tree through a improper pruning.......... most fruit trees have a life span, but did they have a good life??

Elite LawnCare
02-23-2009, 12:50 AM
Your close-up shots.


Its from taking the shots too close....I could have used manual mode and opend up the apature a bit I guess bit I figured most of it is in focus.

Elite LawnCare
02-23-2009, 01:02 AM
you can not take a 90 year old man and give him a shot of latte and some steroids and put him in the Olympics. maybe the old timers ballroom dance but thats from 6pm till 7 pm and he's looking for the advil the next day. you want the fresh new tree ready to hit the ground with some compost and maybe some MYCO, and then have a class or 2 before you let any one put the tree through a improper pruning.......... most fruit trees have a life span, but did they have a good life??


Yeah this makes sence. Not too sure about the history of these trees but I am assuming they wernt taken care of too well. I would love to learn more about pruning for all applicatoins, IDK if there are any class's around here or not? I will have to look into it.

Kiril
02-23-2009, 01:12 AM
Its from taking the shots too close....I could have used manual mode and opend up the apature a bit I guess bit I figured most of it is in focus.

Is this what we are supposed to be looking at? Also can't really tell how the trees have been maintained from your pics.

Elite LawnCare
02-23-2009, 01:17 AM
Yes, the moss/fungus stuff is one of the problems I am trying to eliminate. How do u recomend taking care of this problem on any other tree?

Kiril
02-23-2009, 02:02 AM
Yes, the moss/fungus stuff is one of the problems I am trying to eliminate. How do u recomend taking care of this problem on any other tree?

Don't worry about it ... that is my recommendation.

Mr. Nice
02-23-2009, 08:58 AM
Yes, the moss/fungus stuff is one of the problems I am trying to eliminate. How do u recomend taking care of this problem on any other tree?

they are more a visual issue usually?

most of the time it's because irrigation is hitting/misting the trees
often.

phasthound
02-23-2009, 09:27 AM
Yes, the moss/fungus stuff is one of the problems I am trying to eliminate. How do u recomend taking care of this problem on any other tree?

Right from the start, I was afraid this was where you were headed. Read this.
http://www.aces.edu/counties/Tallapoosa/plant-diseases/anr-857.htm

Elite LawnCare
02-23-2009, 10:14 AM
So these trees need some lovin basicly. I always wondered why some trees had that green fungus now I know what its called and why its there. I dont know much about trees at all yet but will learn just like anything else. I appreciate every ones input. I will plant a few new apple trees probably in the fall, but want to still work on these. I figure if it had some edible fruit last year it cant be any worse this year.

treegal1
02-23-2009, 10:44 AM
now that's the spirit!! and look at it this way, if you get good at apple trees maybe its an up sell, like we do with citrus.

Barefoot James
02-23-2009, 10:54 AM
I think you have a couple things going on.

In the first two pics you have some sort of mold/fungi going on around a past pruned area. In the third pic you have tell tale signs of appletree borer - look at the branch to the left and in the middle on the edge of the pic you can see and trench done the middle of the branch this is the borer tail. the yellow moldy deposits could be eggs?? - or something else

White Gardens
02-23-2009, 10:58 AM
taps plays slow in the background, and the doctor comes out of the room and says " please sit down" and then the priest slips in beside him and looks low, with a stare on his face, just saying sorry for your loss with his eyes...

I am no apple expert but with the termite damage and core rot and all the other things I see not to mention the rough bark disease, yeah it may just be time to start over and take great care of your new trees. but let me say again, not an apple expert........

:laugh:

Looks like many apple trees I've seen go by-by.

Elite LawnCare
02-23-2009, 11:02 AM
People love their fruit trees and want the best for them. Same thing with their vegtable gardens. I would like to come up with a program for peoples vegtable gardens. The organic program I am gonna work with to get things goin this year will include one aplication of compost tea from a brewer/sprayer that im renting from Green Pro Solutions for a week because they are only 3.5 hours away and it will help get me goin in the right direction. They have a granular product that looks pretty decent to me its the 9-0-4http://naturespro.com/products_professional.htm along with their Bio Soil Boost. I am also planing on including a top dressing of compost in the spring. (all this for lawns) I am thinking for peoples gardens I could have them rototill compost and humates to start and when I Rent that machine in May I will spray their garden too...Just an Idea what do u think?

White Gardens
02-23-2009, 11:31 AM
People love their fruit trees and want the best for them. Same thing with their vegtable gardens. I would like to come up with a program for peoples vegtable gardens. The organic program I am gonna work with to get things goin this year will include one aplication of compost tea from a brewer/sprayer that im renting from Green Pro Solutions for a week because they are only 3.5 hours away and it will help get me goin in the right direction. They have a granular product that looks pretty decent to me its the 9-0-4http://naturespro.com/products_professional.htm along with their Bio Soil Boost. I am also planing on including a top dressing of compost in the spring. (all this for lawns) I am thinking for peoples gardens I could have them rototill compost and humates to start and when I Rent that machine in May I will spray their garden too...Just an Idea what do u think?

There's a market out there for organic gardening and home-grown vegetables.

It would be definitively something to add to your business and push as a unique service especially if nobody else in your area does this.

There is many ways to do all this too. If your clients are retro-active, I'd skip the expense of brewing your own tea, and just build a compost bin on site that you can check periodically to make sure it's maintained. Then every year you till, just empty out the bin and till in.

I tried doing a completely green garden, but we have Japanese beetle extremely bad here, so I spray Seven (Highly inert insecticide) once to three times a year.

Kinda sucks when you go outside one day, see all the silks on your sweetcorn being munched, all the leaves get destroyed on my pole beans, and fruit trees being stripped in a matter of a day.

treegal1
02-23-2009, 11:40 AM
carbaryl safe or organic??? are you joking??? what happened to the beneficial nematode's and the milky spore???

Elite LawnCare
02-23-2009, 11:54 AM
carbaryl safe or organic??? are you joking??? what happened to the beneficial nematode's and the milky spore???

Not sure about the first part...and not really sure, but I am here to learn:) Ive read about nematode's and a little about milky spore.

White Gardens
02-23-2009, 12:11 PM
carbaryl safe or organic??? are you joking??? what happened to the beneficial nematode's and the milky spore???

I mean inert as it doesn't systemically go into the plant tissue and crops can be eaten after so many days of application. Though I don't agree with Seven, it also states that it can be used on pets, and my grandmother used it for years on our farm dogs when I was growing up.

I don't like using chemicals, and I only selectively use them. I especially don't use them on any crop that specifically attracts honey bees.

Trust me, nothing organic works and it makes me cry. Milky spore was a waste of my time and money unfortunately.

It's really bad up here, I need to pull some pics to show you the large trees that get ate up. I'd rather deal with a swarm of locust. At least they go away after a while.

Here you go

137088137089

137090

Kiril
02-23-2009, 12:15 PM
I mean inert as it doesn't systemically go into the plant tissue

Actually, it does. I also thought it didn't until I looked it up the other day.

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/carbaryl-dicrotophos/carbaryl-ext.html

Carbaryl has a short residual life on treated crops. The insecticide remains at the application site, where it is slowly taken into the plant and metabolized. Insecticidal properties are retained for 3-10 days. Loss of carbaryl is due to evaporation and uptake into plants. Breakdown by sunlight does not appear to be significant.

Elite LawnCare
02-23-2009, 12:18 PM
carbaryl safe or organic??? are you joking??? what happened to the beneficial nematode's and the milky spore???

Okay maybe this one wasent for me....I missed the post b4

naughty62
02-25-2009, 08:18 AM
The light green stuff is moss ,the blue green lichen ,The lichen are no problem .but I would bust out a chain saw an remove all scrub trees and brush. Good air circulation is important ,buy a2inch bulb auger,drill a 3 lb bag of organic fert. drill whole in ground 2ft apart ,extending one and half times the the drip line mix fert and dirt in wheel barrow 1to2 .fill hole most of the way and cap with dirt or sod plug .Drll hole 9 inches deep and good fert to use has a 1-1-3 or simular low nitrigen rating .apple trees dont like high N.mulch ,hang insect traps earlyand learn how make you own fungicide .The biggest thing that gradually takes out apple trees is early leaf fall caused by fungi such anthracnose and cedar apple rust ect .ect .If this is too much work break out the chain saw and buy a couple pork loins .